The Interview

Following is an interview with Interior Minister MH a retired lieutenant general and head of Pakistan's internal security, intelligence units, police, and paramilitary forces.

Reporter: Mr. Haider did you tell Business Week that the “first thing” you would do when you return home would be to travel to Afghanistan to try to persuade the Taliban to hand over Osama Bin Ladin and close his terrorist training camps ?

MH: Business Week ? Is there a magazine by that name ?

Reporter: Yes its based in New York City … the one you visited this March 1st.

MH: Well Jhotay Ka Munh Kala I mean may the liar’s face be black.

Reporter: Excuse me? The reporter for Business Week was indeed black.

MH: Oh, he is already black … what irony!

Reporter: Okaaay. Is it not true that the bulk of your conversations with

President Clinton was focused on counter-terrorism?

MH: Betay , I mean son, let me ask you one thing …

Reporter: Yes.

MH: Where were you born?

Reporter: Karachi …

MH: But you look like a Foreign ?

Reporter : Well I grew up in Virginia.

MH: MashAllah! like a Virgin in Virginia ?!

Reporter: Excuse me?

MH: Betay, I mean son, did your mother tell you not to tell outsiders what is happening inside house?

Reporter: Well she might have …

MH: This is exactly the principle of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, you know?

Reporter: That you say one thing to the Americans and do something else ?

MH: Are you questioning our religion?

Reporter: What does this have to do with religion?

MH: Look, betay, I mean son, you have been disillusioned by the acts of Muslims. Have you heared what this great man BurnHard Shah say?

Reporter: Bernard Shaw?

MH: Yes, yes what he say? Muslim bad but Islam good good , no?

Reporter: Umm, I don’t recall …

MH: So the media please don’t blame Islam for work of Osama Bin Ladin or Taliban, Ok? You understand?

Reporter: Are you saying Islamic teachings are different from acts of Bin Ladin ?

MH: Yes, yes. Islam is just like the religion of the hippies. Islam says Allen Ginsburg was Imam Mehdi – a messenger of Allah. Islam is just like love and peace but no rock and roll please and no pornography also!

Reporter: Pornography?

MH: Yes, yes. The hippie religion very much like Sufi religion. They dance they sing but the hippie girls taking off their shirts after the music and play with the boys. That no Islamic. Understand?

Reporter: Ok. So Islam is against women taking off their cloths?

MH: Absolutely! Because if woman take off her cloths on beach, in concert- she get raped. Then you cannot blame rapist but woman who ask for trouble.

Reporter: Are you saying it’s the woman’s fault?

MH: Yes, of course. Naturally! If woman display her beauty she asking to be raped. She advertizing her beauty just like a pastry in a window shelf. A woman is like pastry. It is softy softy pastry, it is fluffy fluffy! Oh so yummy yummy pastry. Pastry say “eat me Moin ! eat me!”

Reporter: So are you saying pastry thiefs in your country are not punished?

MH: What you mean ? Of course they are. We cut off their hands and show it to everyone as warning.

Reporter: They do that in Pakistan?

MH: Oh, I mean in Afghanistan. I confusing the two countries since they very much same same in my mind …

Reporter: Wait, I am confused so its ok for a rapist to rape a woman because

she is on “display” and a hungry pastry thief can have his hand cut off ?

MH: Oh my son! Why you so confused? Churchill say if you can’t defeat them

confusing them.

Reporter: What do you mean by I am confused?

MH: I see you very confused and brainwashed by the west. But I sort you out well.

Reporter: Can we back up to the pornography part. What are your views on pornography?

MH: Well pornography bad. It ask people to make chaos and rape woman. It excite people. Pornography just like advertisement and invitation to rape.

Reporter: An advertisement for rapists hanh?

MH: Of course, of course. Woman like Jewel for us. You hide woman and not display her. Just like you do not put Jewel on display.

Reporter: Okaaaay. Very interesting. So pornography is asking you to rape women?

MH: Yes, Just like pastry is asking me to eat ! and watering my mouth. Now if I break into window shelf of bakery and steal the virginity of the pastry am I to blame ?

Reporter: Did you not just rob the baker? … are you saying theft is un punished in Pakistan?

MH: Oho!! Yaaar! You are so confused. Are you not listening to me? Is your heart sealed ? The Holy Quran say the hearts and minds of un believers sealed and you cannot tell them anything. Because they don’t UNDERSTAND!! You understand?

Reporter: Let me try to understand here. A woman works hard on her body: runs, swims and then decides to take off her top at a Perl Jam concert because she wants to “display” her hard work – just like the baker wants to display his skill and hard work? And raping that woman is OK ? Just like stealing the pastry is OK?

MH: Well stealing is forbidden in Islam so is raping. So you are wrong on both counts.

Reporter: [\\*LONG SIGH\\*] About Islam you mentioned …

MH: Mention I do not! I TESTESify that it the only religion, the complete religion the perfect religion and the best.

Reporter: So if a Muslim bombs and kills and claims to be following Allah’s word - Islam is not to be blamed ? it is the fault of the Muslim, but if a rapist rapes …

MH: It is the fault of the Pornography … the Pornography betay, I mean my son, is the work of the devil!

Reporter: Okaaaay, we really got side tracked here. Why did you go back on your statement to the Business Weekly?

MH: As I said “Ghar Ki Baath Bahar Kay Logon Ko Nahin Batathay”

Reporter: What? Oh! You mean “Don’t tell outsider’s about what happens inside the house”…

MH: Shabbash! I mean Congra-chew-lations

Reporter: See I know my Urdu!

MH: We are thinking of converting it all into Arabic one day…

Reporter: Arabic? Ok, before we get side tracked … why did you change your statement?

MH: Betay, I mean son. Sometimes we need to tell the Gora Babu (white man) somethings to get our bread and butter. Tell me why your parents Immigrate to Umrika (America)?

Reporter: Well my dad says it was because of the money.

MH: Yes! We have to have money and become strong so that one day we make Umrika part of Islamic world …

Reporter: Okay and I am thinking this is off the record ?

MH: Of course. But our Lieutenant here will edit your tape recorder anyway before you leave. Sooo, I saying : Osama actually a blessing for us.

Reporter: And how is that?

MH: Well you see – if no Osama – no bargaining chip. If we bomb India tomorrow we can still threaten US with Osama. Right ?

Reporter: So you can get away with anything as long as you have Osama.

MH: Well maybe not everything. We can’t get Chelsea Clinton to marry my son , for example. I know her father will like the match very much but now a days youngsters don’t listen to wisdom of elders. That is one more great thing about our religion: respect your elders!

Reporter: Interesting So you would have liked to have Chelsea Clinton as your daughter in law?

MH: Yes, but who knows whatever Allah does is good. Who knows what happening if she marry my dear boy Bilal? Maybe she come to Pakistan and then complain like Imran Khan’s wife “oh I have diarrhea all time… oh my children sick all the time … oh dirt, oh disease, oh power failure oh no water oh cramped apartment!” I tell you western women are so spoiled and so ungrateful.

Reporter: Are you referring to the time she slapped your son Bilal?

MH: Oh that time ho ho you know how kids like to play around. In our culture and religion kissing in public is haram and forbidden so we express our love in other ways.

Reporter: By slappinng each other in public?

MH: Well a friendly slap is an excuse to touch the other … I think that is very healthy. Because everyone know a fighting husband and wife kiss in their home but outside everyone pretend like they are angry and beating each other.

Reporter: And how is that healthy ?

MH: Well if you see two people kissing in public you see pornography …

Reporter: And that is like an advertizement to rape … great ! Going back to your statement to the Business Weekly - is changing your statement a part of your religion?

MH: Astaghfirallah! Of course not! But there is such a thing as Taqiyah.

Reporter: Would you like to remind us what it is?

MH: It is like to save your life – you can lie.

Reporter: So lying is permitted?

MH: Yes even Prophet did it: he buy time by making peace with Makkah Sharif then break truce later.

Reporter: I never heard my parents talk about Taqiyah. Are you sure it’s a part of Islam?

MH: Well the problem with most people is they don’t understand Islam.

Reporter: Are you saying my parents do not understand Islam ?

MH: Of course … their interpretation of Islam is very correct.

Reporter: But you just said that my parents … anyway … what about Osama and the Taliban are they right in following Islam?

MH: Well the answer depends. If you are a Muslim …

Reporter: Yes I am a Muslim…

MH: Well then they are wrong and you are right … and if we really implement the REAL Islam …

Reporter: as you understand it …

MH: As I understand it! A heavenly religion full of love and peace but no rock n roll please … if we do this we will set this country straight ! We will put it to Attention and Forward March and Left Right Left!

Regarding the recent news item :

05 April 2000 Wednesday 29 Zilhaj 1421

"Moin denies promise"

By Our Staff Correspondent

NEW YORK, April 4: Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider has been quoted by New York-based Business Weekmagazine as having told US security officials that the "first thing" he would do when he returned home would be to travel to Afghanistan to try to persuade the Taliban to hand over Osama bin Laden and close his terrorist training camps.

The BW says that this "change of heart" has occurred because during his visit to Islamabad President Clinton had urged the authorities there to deliver Osama bin Laden as a price for return to normal economic and diplomatic relations.

While on Saturday Mr Haider said he had told the Americans that they should make direct contact with Afghans for the arrest of bin Laden. However, "Business Week" says that "Haider, a retired lieutenant general and head of Pakistan's internal security, intelligence units, police, and paramilitary forces, says he'll tell Taliban that harbouring bin Laden is not worth the price it is paying in diplomatic and economic isolation."

The reasoning for this about face the magazine says is that "Pakistan has been isolated diplomatically since General Pervez Musharraf took power last year and is desperate to have its international credibility - and international loans - restored.

President Clinton, on his visit to Pakistan in March, urged Pakistan to help deliver bin Laden and promised a return to "economic and diplomatic partnership if it did."

Pakistani officials travelling with Mr Haider say bulk of Mr Clinton's private discussions with him focused on counter-terrorism.

Mr Haider arrived in the US on March 31 for a five-day visit, during which he had meetings scheduled with his counterpart, Federal Bureau of Investigation director Louis Freeh, and other US security officials.

The FBI officials when contacted by Dawn in New York refused to confirm or deny the Business Week report.

DENIAL: Mr Moinuddin, on Tuesday while talking to Dawn on phone, refuted the report published by Business Weekly. He said, "I gave no such assurances to the Americans. I have told them time and again that Osama bin Laden is their issue and they should directly deal with the Afghan government."

Mr Haider said that "its a totally baseless report. We have even told President Clinton that Afghanistan is a sovereign nation and they should talk to its government".