Withdrawing from Iraq (Part II): Considering Options

#102, more nonsense, Palestine was a legal entity under the Ottomans, and was predominantly composed of Arab Palestinians. Just like America is mostly composed of European Americans. How difficult is that to understand?

Re: # 101

Asadi Sahib, that’s true. There was no Jordan, and neither was there any country called Israel (kingdom, yes). Israel was created by the UN in 1948. Palestinians also had a chance to create their homeland as well, but they rejected. The Palestinian territory under the Ottoman and the British mandate was just that, a territory and not a Nation or a country. If Palestine, as you claim, was a “country”, who was their leader? People get displaced and that’s the bitter pill of history which everyone needs to swallow. Half of Mexico is part of the US now, Northern Ireland will always be part of Great Britain, and Kashmir will never be independent.

But the name Palestine is Roman… the inhabitants of Palestine were not “Arabs”… they were Phillistine (Greeks and Romans) who were defeated by David.. it is after them the place was named, and not Arabs. Yes, this place has had many rulers, even before David and after him. These Palestinians that you talk about never had their own country in the history of the world, and by the way things are going, they might never have one.

#100, Kulharee Sahib, as usual facts have outrun your sensibilities. Not only was there a legal entity known as Palestine under the Ottomans, and before them the Arabs, there survive coins and currency from that period that says Palestine on it. Also, the British, according to historical documents called that territory Palestine, as stated in the Balfour Declaration, that gave birth to Israel, and the fact is that Palestine predates both Jordan as a territory and the state of Israel. Please get your facts straight.

Re: # 99

Asadi Sahib.. Romans called it Palestine when they ruled the holy land. There never was a sovereign state called Palestine. EVER. I think your hatred of the US and Jews has turned you into a very negative and a bitter person. I pray for your recovery. And please don’t get me wrong, but you sound like a real idiot and a loser.

#88 How could you not have read it when in #82, you use part of that post where I refer to ``social scientist`` and mock me with it? Enough said!, be honest with yourself.

#97 masadi: No, I did not know that you already answered it. My apologies.

Your posts are very long and maybe all the rubbish that you write hides some of the answers in them. You must be a life long bureucrat, and that is why you are so much against bureucrats. You did not answer (I think?) me previously if you were a Punjabi?

I answered that ignorant post by Kulharee, and you know I answered it but to deceive people on here you reproduce it detached from its answer- is that honesty? Is that intellectual integrity? I think now. Once again I asked you for a source, and you fail to produce one, totally failed to produce one.

For the ones who want to see how I answered Kulharee in #76, read #77 or for your convenience I reproduce it below:

<<<#76, The Israeli Armed Forces they call them IDF, where the D is for Defense- total nonsense are part of the state of Israel, and Behram1 is supporting the state`s terrorism against the Palestinians. On the other hand the suicide bombers are an insignificant minority among the Palestinians and are not representatives of them. Their actions are worthy of condemnation but the Palestinians are not blameworthy for their actions. There is a clear difference here. Also, as a social scientist when I look at the abnormal phenomena of suicide bombing, I cannot view it in a detached manner, detached from social institutions and structure- like you and behram1 are doing- which is based upon total ignorance of society.

When suicide becomes a part of the daily life of a community, it is an abnormality that must have a social context and cause. This ``opposition culture`` can only be neutralised if what nourishes it is eradicated. Israel`s oppression and humiliation of the Palestinian people provides reason for the would-be suicide bombers, in their mind, to indulge in what they do -- this is how an ``opposition culture`` operates, like it or not. Similar conditions in the inner cities in the US lead to an oppositional ``code of the street`` and perpetuates street crime. No brutal police crackdown will ever fix the effect without addressing the cause. We see something similar happening in Iraq. There weren`t any suicide bombings prior to the US invasion there- the cause therefore is the US invasion, you cannot detach facts from their causes and then present them as propaganda ``bits of information``, to perpetuate occupation- like Israel and the US are doing in the case of Palestine and Iraq . This is the anatomy of the problem, yet it is deliberately ignored by those who want to perpetuate not only the occupation both of Israel and Iraq but also want this opposition culture and its effects to continue, because they use them as ulterior motives to keep the oppression going and the profits flowing. By supporting the oppressors world-view you are supporting the oppression and the crime. >>>

Now, this is not about me or about the idiot who is challenging me without any facts or proof or references, it is about the truth; and the fact that the people he is supporting, the American elite and the Israeli elite, are not only harming the world by their short sightedness, they are harming their own people as well on levels much greater than any harm any criminal suicide bomber can do. Every single day over 40,000 people die on earth due to preventible causes, cause by distributional deprivation in a world of plenty, directly caused by domination of trade and implicit domination of the state and economic institutions of the developing countries by this same elite. I cannot support their actions, I reject them, and I will keep on rejecting them based upon truth and justice. The day that I stop rejecting them is the day that I will curse my very existance for it will be worthless.

masadi: this is what Kulharee (#76) wrote:

[Asadi Sahi, aint you accusing Behram of supporting Israeli’s actions? How is your support for Palestinians any different from his concerns for Israel’s safety and security? Do you have different set of rules for yourself? I havenst seen anything by you condemning suicide bombers or speaking up against them as much as you like to utter your usual mantra of American Elite. I mean hello? Where is the condemnation of the dogs aka suicide bombers and their filthy supporters and financiers? I was gonna say that not only you are ignorant but also a bigot, but I wont.]

And that is the opinion most people have about you. Do you understand what the post means?

#94 masadi: You are the deceiver and the liar and the trickster. And people know that. You are intellectually dishonest and you know that. The rubbish books that you read is no source of enlightenment. You have no knowledge. You hide behind all the stupidity that the liars, the tricksters, and the deceivers have taught you. I will not provide you with any source, because I am the source. You will have to live with that.

You are biased against humanity in Kurdistan, in Baluchistan, and no, you have not provided any answer to this question. All throughout history, there were many people of many lands, and they were all called something. And the Palestinians are one such group of people. There was never a bonafide (do you understand this word?) country.

Why was Imam of Mecca, great grandfather of the King Abdullah of Jordan given the throne of Trans-Jordan? According to your theory he is an outsider, is he not?

Don`t try to deceive the people, I have already answered your question about Kurdistan and Baluchistan and the other stans- don`t try to distract the people, this is part of your trickery- Give me ONE historical source by a historian and his book which says that there was no Palestine in history and that there were no Palestinian Arabs living there before Israel was created in 1947. Give me a source or SHUT UP. I gave you many sources

Re: # 92: masadi: There you go once again with your stupidity. If you consider Palestine as a country then why don`t you consider Kurdistan as a separate country? And that suits your western masters just fine. Does it?

You purposely try to create a distinction between the Jewish people and the Jewish political party that espoused freedom for the Jews and got them a homeland. You brand them all as Zionist and then brand them as racist. There is nothing wrong for a Jew to be Zionist. But, then you brand them as racist and that is where you are wrong.

Your corrupt surrounding of liars, tricksters, and decievers have taught you just that. And you should be ashamed of that because that does not provide you with the intellectual honesty.

So when it comes to the corrupt Palestinian leaders suddenly the world has to hear they are being victimized, but when it comes to the Kurds you and your ilk are suddenly quite. For all these years, people like you have terrorized the world not only in deeds but also in words, and now you and your ilk have gotten into terrorizing people`s thoughts as well.

And Thank Almighty the world is smarter today to identify and isolate your shenanigans.

Nowhere in today`s world body have they identified Palestine as a bonafide country. You are as illogical as your surrounding. Why are all the wars between Israel and Arabs are always called Arab/Israeli war? Did you know why they always call it the Arab/Israeli war because the Arabs have always been the aggressor....nuances not withstanding. Arabs have never wanted peace with Israel. And that is a fact. Your intellectual thuggery is rather obvious.

[The Jews my friend were persecuted by your Christian West, not by the Arabs.]Oh, yeah....I will not go down the history lane and elucidate what the Arabs did to the Jews. Once, they subjugate a minority completely, then of course, they will brag about how great their society has been towards the minority. Give me a break.

The other day, the other fundoo on this Chowk was educating me that it was the Zoroastrian Persians who invited the Arab wrath on their developed country. How rubbish that can be? This kind of history can only make sense to the corrupt mind who is perpetually trying to trick and deceive people. Trust me, I can see through the rubbishness that you promote and I will call a spade when I see one.

#91, I have been tolerating your nonsense for quite a while now. Not only are you totally ignorant of history and society, you are outdoing your Zionist masters, even they wouldn`t support your fundamentalism. You talk about hate, you are the hater. People are trapped in impoverished prisons in Palestine- yes Palestine, an OFFICIAL entity from centuries back, recognized as an official entity both by the OTTOMANS and the BRITISH according to historical documents. Albert Hourani, Oxford Historian, confirms not only this but also that the vast majority of people living there were Palestinian Arabs. He calls the Joan Peters and Zionist assertion about no Palestine and no Arab Palestinians as laughably absurd.

Israel does not want peace. It has made ZERO concessions, while the Palestinians in Oslo, not only gave it a huge chunk of their territory, on top of the unfair division of the UN, they practically were begging them for peace, yes begging for peace but Israel doesnt want it.

You say, without evidence again that I am surrounded by liars and tricksters, for your info, I am not surrounded by anybody, not one person. My conclusions are based upon objective analysis or a simple problem. There is no complication in the Arab/Israel conflict. We have the CAUSE of conflict, occupation and the age old Zionist attempt to displace the Palestinian Arabs, which they did, a vast majority over 52% of them live outside the territories now thanks to Israel. The EFFECT of this cause is a freedom struggle by the Palestinians which you term terrorism. Now take the CAUSE away and the EFFECT is bound to go away. No big complications in this analysis.

The Jews my friend were persecuted by your Christian West, not by the Arabs. Their golden years were in Andalusia under Muslim rule, this they recognize themselves. Jews are not the same as Zionists, neither do they all support the Zionists. The vast majority in Israel, the public, not the government who rules over them, wants a just peace, with the Palestinians, as do the vast majority of Palestinians. Oslo bears withness to the fact that the Palestinian government has made all kinds of sacrifices, inspite of the fact that Israel has destroyed their institutions, to BEG for peace- which they have been denied.

# 90: What nonsense are you talking about? Frankly, I believe that Israel is anxiously waiting for a partner in peace and the fanatic Arabs are unable to understand that. That is all what Arabs have learnt from the Ottoman Turks. After all the Ottoman Turks ruled over them for 5 centuries. Civilization and enlightenment have gone way past them. Their muderous thinking is evident globally. Their strategy of being a victim is also well known. So, their new modality of gaining any political mileage is first act as a victim and then at the same time create hate and kill everybody who disagree with their way of thinking.

[the facts do speak for themselves when understood.] Your level of thinking is way off. So you can understand whatever you desire. You are a person full of hate and it can be seen in your posts.

[Israel got out of Gaza because it had nothing it wanted there,] You are right, and all it wants with the Arabs is peace, which it is unable to get.

[.. worse off due to Israel not the Palestinians, whose existance you are still denying.] This is a total fabrication of your corrupt thought. I have never denied that there were never a group of Arabs who call themselves Palestininians. For that matter, I am sure that there are some jewish Palestinians, but nevertheless, there never was a country called Palestine, with regular geography, regular government, etc. And that is a fact.

[You outdo the Zionists in your love for Zionism, which is quite amazing as a phenomenon.]Why is accepting a Jews right to their own country an amazing phenomenon? The Jews have been persecuted for so many years, and it is about time that they are given their due place in the world of communities.

But, how would you know that? You are surrounded by liars, tricksters, and deceivers, who have constantly drummed into you that except for your kind everyone else can go to hell. Once again, you are a person full of hate, and it can be seen in your posts.

[ In days gone by, when the Field Slaves,] And it is a well known fact that slavery was another instrument that was promoted by the Arabs.

[Eventually, the truth always ruins falsehood.]And you are the bearer of falsehood. You are a liar, you are a trickster, and you are a deceiver. You are a Shaitan.

#88, the facts do speak for themselves when understood. You don`t present facts, you present propaganda, lies and non-issues, packaged for impact, like Fox News. Israel got out of Gaza because it had nothing it wanted there, and it scored propaganda points. Gaza is actually worse off now by being surrounded than it was before; worse off due to Israel not the Palestinians, whose existance you are still denying. You outdo the Zionists in your love for Zionism, which is quite amazing as a phenomenon. In days gone by, when the Field Slaves, those who worked in the field, wanted to escape the master`s oppression, and sought help from the House slaves, the House slaves seldom helped them get emancipated. Instead the House slaves were even more loving of the master`s house than the master himself. That is how they talked, when the master was sick and they had to ask him how he was feeling, they used to form the question as ``master, WE sick?``- see the mentality, yours is the same. A total slave to the masters, regardless of fact or truth.

#89: The Wesley Clark article is useless. We don`t expect peace-talk from a warlord like Wesley Clark. All he knows is war. His whole life has been war. He is a damn warlord. That is how the power elite in the US come to be of a single world view- the military metaphysic, Mills called it. Clark started off in command of the military institution, wanted to become president (command of the political institution), and will probably end up as CEO or board member of one of the corporations of the Military Industries, like Raytheon, Northup Grumann or Lockheed Martin etc. Yes, they want to perpetuate war, and suffering. Iran emerging as winner, so what, they play one side against the other anyway there is nothing new in this; in Afghanistan the group Iran was siding with was supported by the US, so also in Iraq, because the Sunnis are challenging the American imperialism at present. Tomorrow, it might be some ohter group that they support and benefit (once they supported Osama`s people, remember Afghanistan in the 1980s?).

The fact is the US might go along with one group or the other in the short run, but in the long run they ensure their own benefits and hegemony. Clark`s article just tries to confuse using short run analysis even as his main goal is to perpetuate the conflict that feeds the US permanent war economy and ``footprint`` (an official US term) in an oil rich region and as well the protection of Israel from a God forbid developed Arab world! This they want to avoid at all cost. They do not even hide these reasons, the Project for the New American Century (they now populate the Bush Cabinet, or other high ranks in his Admn) wrote all these reasons to Clinton in their 1998 letter asking him to take military action against Iraq, back in 1998 same reasons and same excuses that were resurrected after 9/11 by Bush and co to lie to the American people to invade Iraq. Their 1998 letter to Clinton can be read on their website at
http://newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Eventually, the truth always ruins falsehood. That is what is going to happen. The US will be forced out of Iraq, with its tail between its legs. And if Israel doesnt make a just peace with the Palestinians, it will lose big time. Mark these words, it is going to happen eventually

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/06/opinion/06clark.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Op-Ed Contributor

The Next Iraq Offensive

By WESLEY K. CLARK
Published: December 6, 2005
Doha, Qatar

WHILE the Bush administration and its critics escalated the debate last week over how long our troops should stay in Iraq, I was able to see the issue through the eyes of America`s friends in the Persian Gulf region. The Arab states agree on one thing: Iran is emerging as the big winner of the American invasion, and both President Bush`s new strategy and the Democratic responses to it dangerously miss the point. It`s a devastating critique. And, unfortunately, it is correct.

While American troops have been fighting, and dying, against the Sunni rebels and foreign jihadists, the Shiite clerics in Iraq have achieved fundamental political goals: capturing oil revenues, strengthening the role of Islam in the state, and building up formidable militias that will defend their gains and advance their causes as the Americans draw down and leave. Iraq`s neighbors, then, see it evolving into a Shiite-dominated, Iranian buffer state that will strengthen Tehran`s power in the Persian Gulf just as it is seeks nuclear weapons and intensifies its rhetoric against Israel.

The American approach shows little sense of Middle Eastern history and politics. As one prominent Kuwaiti academic explained to me, in the Muslim world the best way to deal with your enemies has always been to assimilate them - you never succeed in killing them all, and by trying to do so you just make more enemies. Instead, you must woo them to rejoin society and the government. Military pressure should be used in a calibrated way, to help in the wooing.

If this critique is correct - and it is difficult to argue against it - then we must face its implications. ``Staying the course`` risks a slow and costly departure of American forces with Iraq increasingly factionalized and aligned with Iran. Yet a more rapid departure of American troops along a timeline, as some Democrats are calling for, simply reduces our ability to affect the outcome and risks broader regional conflict.

We need to keep our troops in Iraq, but we need to modify the strategy far more drastically than anything President Bush called for last week.

On the military side, American and Iraqi forces must take greater control of the country`s borders, not only on the Syrian side but also in the east, on the Iranian side. The current strategy of clearing areas near Syria of insurgents and then posting Iraqi troops, backed up by mobile American units, has had success. But it needs to be expanded, especially in the heavily Shiite regions in the southeast, where there has been continuing cross-border traffic from Iran and where the loyalties of the Iraqi troops will be especially tested.

We need to deploy three or four American brigades, some 20,000 troops, with adequate aerial reconnaissance, to provide training, supervision and backup along Iraq`s several thousand miles of vulnerable border. And even then, the borders won`t be ``sealed``; they`ll just be more challenging to penetrate.

We must also continue military efforts against insurgent strongholds and bases in the Sunni areas, in conjunction with Iraqi forces. Over the next year or so, this will probably require four to six brigade combat teams, plus an operational reserve, maybe 30,000 troops.

But these efforts must go hand-in-glove with intensified outreach to Iraqi insurgents, to seek their reassimilation into society and their assistance in wiping out residual foreign jihadists. Iraqi and American officials have had sporadic communications with insurgent leaders, but these must lead to deeper discussions on issues like amnesty for insurgents who lay down their arms and opportunities for their further participation in public and private life.

Iraq, for its part, must begin to enforce the ban on armed militias that was enshrined in the new Constitution, especially in the south. Ideally, this should be achieved voluntarily, through political means. But American muscle will have to be made available as a last resort. The Iraqi government should request that for the next two years, six to eight American brigades serve as a backup, available as a last resort if there is trouble in cities with large militia factions like Baghdad, Basra and Najaf. And it is vital that the Pentagon provide our forces with better crowd-control training and many more translators than they have now.

As important as these military changes are, they won`t matter at all unless our political strategy is rethought. First, the Iraqis must change the Constitution as quickly as possible after next week`s parliamentary elections. Most important, oil revenues should be declared the property of the central government, not the provinces. And the federal concept must be modified to preclude the creation of a Shiite autonomous region in the south.

Also, a broad initiative to reduce sectarian influence within government institutions is long overdue. The elections, in which Sunnis will participate, will help; but the government must do more to ensure that all ethnic and religious groups are represented within ministries, police forces, the army, the judiciary and other overarching federal institutions.

And we must start using America`s diplomatic strength with Syria and Iran. The political weakness of Bashar al-Assad opens the door for significant Syrian concessions on controlling the border and cutting support for the jihadists. We also have to stop ignoring Tehran`s meddling and begin a public dialogue on respecting Iraqi independence, which will make it far easier to get international support against the Iranians if (and when) they break their word.

Yes, our military forces are dangerously overstretched. Recruiting and retention are suffering; among retired officers, there is deep concern that the Bush administration`s attitude on the treatment of detainees has jeopardized not only the safety of our troops but the moral purpose of our effort.

Still, none of this necessitates a pullout until the job is done. After the elections, we should be able to draw down by 30,000 troops from the 160,000 now there. Don`t bet against our troops.

What a disaster it would be if the real winner in Iraq turned out to be Iran, a country that supports terrorism and opposes most of what we stand for. Surely, we can summon the wisdom, resources and bipartisan leadership to change the American course before it is too late.

Re: # 87

Dear masadi:

[The facts speak for themselves,] How is that possible? Your fact is different than mine and that is why there is some disagreement.

[Peace is made by the occupiers not the occupied,] It takes two warring parties to accept that peace is the only option they have. The Palestinians, of late, are realizing that.

[the cause of the violence is occupation,] The cause of violence is the perpetual state of war that Israel finds itself with the Arabs.

[Israel does not want peace, so there is no peace.] Then, why did Israel get out of Gaza on it`s own?

[In establishing causation, the CAUSE preceeds the EFFECT in time. They detach the effect from the cause and then present it as excuse to reapply the cause. That is only going to make things worse not better.]Huh! What is theory? When the Mongols came to get rid of the Arabs in this area, what was that all about?

Respectfully submitted,