Withdrawing from Iraq (Part II): Considering Options

#69 & #70 are so atrocious that I wont even dignify them with a response. Look at the recommendation for peace, as if Israel is dying to hear from the lips of the Palestinian authority ``We recognize you`` and it will pack up and rush out of the west bank. Laughably naive

Re: # 68

Dear masadi:

[If I had the power, I`d abolish all national boundaries and laws associated with those boundaries.] Thank God that you don`t have the power. Frankly, you don`t even have the intelligence. You are just the same like the rest of those fanatic mullahs who espouse your vision.

[ Apparently behram1 doesn`t understand what a bureaucracy is and what a bureaucratized society does to human reason and freedom, so he is getting confused on why I am against that.] All you want is the supremacy of your value system. It has nothing to do with law and order. Laws are made by elected officials of a bonafide country and not by some intellectual theorist or some fanatic believer.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 66

Dear masadi:

So this is how your twisted logic works. You say that there was a Palestine, as a country before Israel was formed in 1948. In the UN, most countries get immediate recognition, as a country and not as a group of people. Pakistan was recognized as sovereign state in 1947. Most enlightened countries of the world have recognized Israel as a sovereign state. When was Palestine recognized as a sovereign country by the UN?

[here ladies and gentlmen we see how tyranny legitimizes its reign.] And all of recent history shows that the Arabs were master at that. After all it took the Ottoman Turks to control their behavior. Since when have you become a victim? Is this the latest strategy of promoting victimhood that you think will work in the 21st. century.

The only way that the Palestinians and Israel can be at peace is for the Palestinians and Arabs to recognize Israel as a sovereign state. Period.

Respectfully submitted,

#67, I was talking about the nation state as a political, economic and military entity surrounded by laws that protect and maintains the entity, regardless of the people that inhabit it- none of that, none of the artificial cutting up or carving in of boundaries or displacement of indigeneous folk either. People define the land not colonial decree and boundaries. If I had the power, I`d abolish all national boundaries and laws associated with those boundaries. Apparently behram1 doesn`t understand what a bureaucracy is and what a bureaucratized society does to human reason and freedom, so he is getting confused on why I am against that.

hee hee, actually Behram is giving the same treatment to Palestine as assorted Pakistanis and Islamists give to India. After all, don`t a few people say that there was no such thing as India?

Anyways, Masadi, on a more serious note, the very concept of a nationstate is a mere 400 odd years old and can be traced back to the treaty of Westphalia. If you are to take the nation state itself as illegitimate, then how do you aregue that there was a Palestine? After all, by your own definition, all we are discussing here is a stretch if land which had Arab and Jewish native occupants. There was large scale immigration by Jews from other parts of the world, and with the help of the UN and the world community, they set up a nation state of Israel. When, specifically, was the nation state of Palestine ever set up in history?

#64. Here is a classic example of how behram1 is trying in his ``Fox News`` fashion to deceive people. He mentions Egypt getting the Sinai back, which DID not happen until another war, that of 1973, and the Sinai wasn`t completely returned till 1979. Anyway, his tactic of deception here is clear, he wants to deny the Palestinians their existance by claiming that there was no Palestine and no Palestinians and all this is the creation of the surrounding Arab states: classic a-historical Zionist propaganda. I gave the example of the simple Balfour Agreement that talks about Palestine, long before there ever was an Israel on the map, and long before there was a Jordan on the map. Behram1, you say I`m employing mass-deception, yet you give not ONE example. Mass-deception is practiced by your neo-con and Israeli masters when they reach millions via the mass media. How many do I reach, a few here and a few there with well documented facts as against their BS- people aren`t stupid, they can tell how incoherent and off-hand your comments are. Enough said! Presenting the occupiers as victims and the oppressed as non-existant and the deceivers (of the mass media) as ``historical`` and those that speak from standard history books as `mass deceivers`- here ladies and gentlmen we see how tyranny legitimizes its reign.

Re: # 62

Dear malik99:

This was a rhetorical question [ ``So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi?`` ] to masadi`s gyration of thoughts. He has been vacillating in perpetuity on a theory that has been debunked quite successfully.

From the first post he has been utilizing weapons of mass deflection. He was explaining Accounting 101 regarding the War in Iraq, and how the US is loosing etc. Then, we went in how the American elite doing whatever best they do. Then we travelled into nation states theory.

And Oh...Yes, ofcourse, he (like most corrupt intellectuals) had to throw in the Israeli/Palestinians issue.

I am just having fun to see how his lack of truthfulness will be self evident to him.

Respectfully submitted,

Back to the basics 101:

The war of 1967 was between the Israelis and three Arab countries...Eygpt, Jordan, and Syria.

Egypt signed peace agreement with Israel and got Sinai back.
Syria did not sign anything and will not get back the Golan Heights.
Jordan signed peace agreement with Israel, and wants peace, but got entangled with the Palestinians. Whose fault is it?

Going back to basics 101 once again: Who were the participants of that war? Jordan and Israel.

In 1988, Jordan gave up the right on West Bank.
I am not sure when did Eygpt gave up the right on Gaza.

The Arabs, as usual, have introduced yet another variable. Now, the world has to contend with the Palestinians. Or should we wait for yet another variable the Gazains and the West Banker Palestinians?

How would a Palestinan State be defined?

Respectfully submitted,

``The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other``

Huh? So just because you are against nation states we should be as well? All in all, it is the very Palestenians who are a people without a nation state and who would want to be in that position? We are quite happy with our nation states, thank you. You are welcome to give up your own passport if you dislike your nation state so much.

Masadi seems to be some sort of leftist-Islamist combination. Is Islam the new word for a socialist alternative? I thought Islamists were against the left. Now they are against Capitalism as well?

``an apple to apple comparison of european jewry implanted in the heart of middle east would be if survivors of Rawandan genocide were given a territory for self-rule in Central Europe. ``

A valid point, the Israel issue is more about race than religion. Iin which case the Arabs could have retained the moral upper hand by not expelling native Jjews from Yemen, Egypt etc. The fact is that Jews are native to the lands of the middle east and their is historical and religious justification for that fact. So what of the Palestenians were kicked out? My parents were kicked out of West Punjab (the historical home and cradle of Hindu civilization) and we came to India and made futures for ourselves. Let the Palestenians do the same in Jordan or Lebanaon or whatever and do the same.

behram #60 - ``So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi?``

behram sahib, an apple to apple comparison of european jewry implanted in the heart of middle east would be if survivors of Rawandan genocide were given a territory for self-rule in Central Europe.

kulharee # 55 ``do you cry tears over Darfur… OK, let me ask you this: Do you know where Darfur is?``

kulharee sahib, I thought this article was about various alternatives to kill Iraqis. I did not see any mention of Sudan. Did you?

Now instead of snarling and scowling and throwing wise cracks endlessly, why dont you do something useful and pen an article about Darfur. That would be the surest way to find out whether I cry tears over it or not.

But you wont. That would require some thinking. And going by your posts, that would be a long shot.

Re: # 58

Dear masadi:

You assert [no new points in this post of yours,] Of course not. You have still not answered my earlier posts. And you consider yourself an intellectual? You are repackaging your theories constantly.

Between educating me on Accounting 101, and here about Israel`s right to exist, we are now travelling into the nation state theory. I am just having fun in educating myself at your dime (so to speak). So thank you for that.

You assert..[ those who want answers to these deception tactics being used by behram 1,]. Now, now, please be fair and don`t accuse me of your own behavior.

[my purpose here is not to entertain behram 1, in a ``who wants to be a millionaire`` session.] I have always searched for the truth which evidently is foreign to you.


[... Resolution 242 that asks Israel (mentioning it by name) to get the hell out of lands occupied in the war ] without any agreement on peace? Is that ever possible between two warring parties?

Now, please don`t make me read all these posts[http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm] I don`t have time for these posts. Your opinions are good enough for me.

[Your arguments about Kurdistan, Baluchistan etc are redundant because I do not believe in the colonial nation state system.] Have you lost your mind? So you don`t believe in Pakistan? A colonial nation state.

SO what is the UN...you don`t believe in the UN, now?


[ Israel by its occupation legitimizes that system as do you.] What have I occupied? Are you going bonkers?


[ I reject it totally, indigeneous people cannot be justifiably displaced or ruled by outside implants.] So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi? Are you making sense to yourself?

[ The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``] I have seen in most of your posts, that you have someting against bureaucratic form of government. Are you against the rule of law? And that is what bureaucrats do best....


[- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other.] Oh, so if any two countries or people fight, it must be the fault of these neo-colonials. You must be visiting Aljazeera site, too often.

[Behram 1, I do not see any independant thought from you, ] Just get rid of those glasses that was given to you by those liars, those tricksters, and those decievers that are surrounding you and you will notice that the world is not a bastion of conspiracy theorists.

[...the great ``American celebration`` as C. W. Mills called it, which is based on fiction and mythology- fairy tales.] Here you go with one more book to quote.

But, the fact on the ground is very simple.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 57

Asadi Sahib… should the Jews have a right to return to Syria, Iraq, Jordan, even Afghanistan, and what is now Lebanon? Were they kicked out of there or not? I think you are on Hamas payroll. Did you know that the American Elite brokered the agreement between Israel and Egypt to set aside quotas for products produced in collaboration of the two nemesis? Your American Elite employs a huge number of unemployed Araboobs who would otherwise be strapping bombs on their waists. Meanwhile, your leaders give U.S. $ 25K to the family of each suicide bomber. Are you ashamed of being a Muslim?

Asadi Sahib.. only Marx, Max Weber and Durkheim are taught in graduate schools. No one gives a shyt about the theories of your C. Wright Mills. Really. While we are at it, which community school did you attend?

Your concern about the American Elite is commendable, I hope you are as concerned about your Ummah in Sudan for genociding the blacker Muslims, and your Pakis about killing the Shias, Christians and Ahmadis. I wana see a two page essay on that from you.

Just a little observation. You would have made an excellent SS unlisted officer. Staff Sgt. Asadi. Sorry, not an officer, becuse you are too thick even by Nazi standards.

#56, no new points in this post of yours, those who want answers to these deception tactics being used by behram 1, read my earlier posts as most of them were addressed in them. Info on the 1967 war can read it up in the history books, my purpose here is not to entertain behram 1, in a ``who wants to be a millionaire`` session. Resolution 242 that asks Israel (mentioning it by name) to get the hell out of lands occupied in the war can be read in original text at http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm

Your arguments about Kurdistan, Baluchistan etc are redundant because I do not believe in the colonial nation state system. Israel by its occupation legitimizes that system as do you. I reject it totally, indigeneous people cannot be justifiably displaced or ruled by outside implants. The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other. Behram 1, I do not see any independant thought from you, you are merely following the mass mediated propaganda of the US elite- political mythology that those who can`t see below the superficial surface readily accept and rally around- the great ``American celebration`` as C. W. Mills called it, which is based on fiction and mythology- fairy tales.

#55 Kulharee, I hope you`re not using the same lop sided logic to ``re-build``, whatever it is you are trying to rebuild, as you are here. If crimes are being committed in Darfur that doesn`t somehow wash away the crimes committed by the American elite in Iraq.

Benny Morris is a right wing Israeli historian whose work on refugee displacement is considered the standard in the field. Use whatever label you want, Morris is no friend of the Palestinians. The rest of your post is incoherent babbling- Just because you are on the payroll of some American corporation does not mean you have to sell your soul to support them- Think for yourself, be independent, have a damn conscience; sorry for being crude about the obvious.

#54, these new converts to the ``American Way``, a ``way`` that considers money as the ``measure of all things``, often have lost all human sensibilities. To them life matters little as long as it fits in with their ``calculations`` , and these ``calculations`` are usually economic. C. Wright Mills, the American sociologist captured it well in the 1950s when he stated:

``In the expanded world of mechanically vivified communication (i.e the media), the individual becomes the spectator of everything but the human witness of nothing... The cold manner enters their souls and they are made private and blase. In virtually all realms of life, facts now outrun sensibility. Emptied of their human meaning, these facts are readily got used to. In the official man there is no more human shock; in his unofficial follower there is little sense of moral issue...the level of moral sensibility, as part of the public and private life, has sunk out of sight. It is not the number of victims or the degree of cruelty that is distinctive; it is the fact that the acts committed and the acts that nobody protests are split from the consciousness of men in an uncanny even a schizophrenic, manner.
The atrocities of our time are done by men as ``functions`` of a social machinery- men possessed by an abstracted view that hides from them the human beings who are their victims and, as well their own humanity. They are inhuman acts because they are impersonal. They are not sadistic but merely businesslike; they are not aggressive but merely efficient; they are not emotional at all but technically clean-cut...For today if men are acting in the name of ``their nation``, they do not know moral limits but only expedient calculations.`` (C. Wright Mills, Causes of World War III 1958:88-89)

Everytime I hear commentary on the US media, or hear the thugs in Washington speak, I collect empirical evidence in support of the above statement made by Mills in the 1950s. Capitalism has torn the soul out of humanity, and left it in a miserable state, alienated soulless and empty, humanity is capable of much better; much better than the nonsense imposed upon them by the American elite; here are some further observations by Mills (http://robots.asadi.org)

Re: # 53

Dear Masadi:

You have not answered: In 1967, Israel fought the war with which country?
Resolution 242, was between what two countries?

I am really sorry for your closed mindedness.

You have not answered on the theory that if Palestinians being indigeneous people must decide on their own country, then should you not make the same arguments for Kurds?
For Baluchis? For Pathans? For Sindhis?

Regurgitating Palestinians miseries is one thing but convoluting history is totally another thing? You and you ilk have always used weapons of mass deflection when it came to truth.

[you reproduce verbatim the Zionist propaganda from right wing Israeli websites and publications-] Which website are you talking about?

[ Your masters are not the Pakistanis, they are the Neo-Cons in America and their Israeli friends. Keep it up, you make yourself quite transparent.] You are absolutely incorrect. All my life, I loved Pakistanis. But, I have also developed an independent thinking ability. Unlike you, I have never surrounded myself with liars, tricksters, and deceivers.

The mention of the word Palestine in the Balfour agreement does not suggest that there is any government called Palestine. It is similar to the area caled Kurdistan, where the ruthless muslims have divided the territories amongst themselves. Would that be not similar to your theory?

[Truth stands on its own merits.] And what would you know about truth?

Respectfully submitted,