Withdrawing from Iraq (Part II): Considering Options

Let`s see if I understand behram`s logic: If I have invested several millions in a new yacht I should go down with it if it sinks.

Re: # 19

Dear masadi:

Of course it is difficult for your level to understand that the theory of people`s power is long dead. So just accept the fact. These mullah thugoos who have now resorted to violence were the stooges who utilized these same western powers that now you are railing against.

Nuances, nuances, nuances, playing with nuances will get you nowhere. Recently, on the withdrawal timetable resolution, US Congress rejected it by some 95-3 votes. So here the US representative government did not agree with the anti-war and socialist elements of the world.

[Regarding the UN resolutions, Israel my friend has been violating UN resolutions for the past 5 decades, yet we didnt see a US attack on Israel.] A typical red herring. The resolutions that you quote were always passed under Chapter 6 of the UN Charter. It is only with Saddam that the UN had passed over 17 resolutions under Chapter 7 of its charter. And under Chapter 7 use of force is allowed.

[Also, whether Iraq violated the UN resolutions is also suspect.] Wah reh wah....whose fault is that then. That Saddam went around boasting that his sh$t does not stink, he has this capability and that capability, etc. created this whole scenario in the world that he is surely a crazy maniac.

[Iraq was compromising to the point of extreme humiliation and violation of sovereignity is also a fact.] Saddam Hussein and his regime had no understanding of human dignity. So let us keep this issue out of the coversation. You should ask a shiite or a kurd of what level of human dignity that despotic regime had.

[The European corporations are part of the same system so how they distribute the loot among themselves is not my concern, by far the US takes the largest chunk where oil corporation revenues are concerned.] Yet, it is OK for you to use the largest anti-war demonstrations and socialist propaganda material thesis in your arguments that the whole world is against the war.

Wah bhai wah, what an intellect! Pick and chose your own materials. Yeh bhi khoob rahi, aap ki javani ka?

[It is a fact that Iraq via the occupiers is being privatized.] Agreed. The future will be much better for the ordinary people than having it run by the corrupt bureucratic government. Heck, even KESC is being privatized in Pakistan. And there is no occupying force.

[Just because Chavez wants to provide basic necessities to his people, you demonize him and casually dismiss all economic systems that try to help the poor- shame on you.] Hugo Chavez is an idiot who wants his two cents of fame by creating his temper tantrums. He does not care for his people or for the people of Latin America.

[The U.S. empire, an aristocracy of wealth and power-not a democracy-] And that is how the US constitution was written. So?

If you have your own money at stake, then your socialist views would go out of the window. Incidentally, you did not answer my very first question to you....have you ever left your own substantial (over $50,000) investment and just walked away? Then why should the US leave over $400 Billion recent investment and walk away?

I would always rely better leadership on those who have a bigger stake in my economic future..... a person with wealth is much better in decision making process than a person who works for a paycheck.

[... isn`t eternal neither will U.S. hegemony last forever, whether you like it or not- empires built upon human suffering and tyranny seldom do, as Pareto put it, ``history is a graveyard of aristocracies`` -.] Agreed. And that is why there is no USSR today, and the remainder Russia is on western crumbs.

There is no sense of pontificating a value system that has been debunked, and most of the muslims around the world do not care. Most muslim societies have similar western economic value systems. So give me a break.

Other than the economic system values, you have no values... because if you did then you would take care of the millions amongst you who want to run away from your own regimes.

Keep the conversation going. Maybe you will learn something.

Respectfully submitted,

``According to a United Nations report, by the 1990s, Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world, and more professional women in positions of suthority than in any other Middle Eastern country.``

And then what happened...

#18 again, referring to the outrageous Bush tax cuts to the wealthy, even as he proposed cutting social services to the needy, as ``Tax Reform`` is criminal. Post 9/11, the president used his popularity and fear mongering urging congress to pass his corporate tax cutting economic package- http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,760761,00.html

#18- Little else other than incoherence is seen in your post: the War Powers Act gives Congress and NOT the president the responsibility to declare war. That did not happen. The president declared and decided upon the war and then bullied congress to approve it. Regarding the UN resolutions, Israel my friend has been violating UN resolutions for the past 5 decades, yet we didnt see a US attack on Israel. Also, whether Iraq violated the UN resolutions is also suspect. That the US was misusing the inspections regime to keep the sanctions intact even though Iraq was compromising to the point of extreme humiliation and violation of sovereignity is also a fact.

The European corporations are part of the same system so how they distribute the loot among themselves is not my concern, by far the US takes the largest chunk where oil corporation revenues are concerned. It is a fact that Iraq via the occupiers is being privatized. Here is an excerpt from Joseph Stiglitz, who used to be president of the World Bank, like I said it`s not only Iraq, this is what these thugs do in all developing countries to make sure that they never develop:

``Mr. Rumsfeld`s plan for Iraq is the first step of the Assistance Strategy prepared for developing nations. Each nation`s finance minister is handed a `restructuring agreement` pre-drafted for his `voluntary` signature, then, says Joseph Stiglitz (recipient Nobel Prize, Chairman, President`s Council of Economic Advisers, Chief Economist, World Bank), the Bank hands every minister the same four-step program.

Investigative journalist Gregory Palast who interviewed Dr. Stiglitz describes the Assistance Strategy: Step One is Privatisation which Stiglitz says could more accurately be called, `Briberisation.` ``You could see their eyes widen`` at the prospect of 10% commissions paid to Swiss bank accounts for simply shaving a few billion off the sale price of national assets. Step Two is `Capital Market Liberalization.` In theory, capital market deregulation allows investment capital to flow in and out. Unfortunately, as in Indonesia and Brazil, the money simply flowed out and out. Step Three is Market-Based Pricing, a fancy term for raising prices on food, water and cooking gas. Step Four is Free Trade by the rules of the World Trade Organization and World Bank. ``

Let us see how many industries in Iraq remain nationalized, and what percent of the population gets access to basic necessities. Just because Chavez wants to provide basic necessities to his people, you demonize him and casually dismiss all economic systems that try to help the poor- shame on you.

The U.S. empire, an aristocracy of wealth and power-not a democracy- isn`t eternal neither will U.S. hegemony last forever, whether you like it or not- empires built upon human suffering and tyranny seldom do, as Pareto put it, ``history is a graveyard of aristocracies`` -. Good day to you all

Re: # 17

Dear masadi:

Wah bhai wah, masagi.... [Apologists] my foot!!!

US Congress passed the war powers act and you can`t live with that. American people overwhelmingly supported the war and you can`t live with that. The UN passed over 17 resolutions and you can`t live with that. Your @ss gets kicked and you can`t live with that.

[After looting the wealth not only from the world but from their own citizens (a tiny 1% controls greater wealth than the rest of the 99% in the US), our apologist here presents them as victims!! ] So, you are the Hugo Chavez on this site, eh! Where have you been all these years? Have you not realized that your brand of people power has been debunked? None other than by those same people that you are now championing for.

[As a percentage of population America is using greater resources than anyone else,] So? Those who have money always make rules. Have you not heard that money talks and BS walks?

[...... yet our friend here presents them as poor victims, ``hostages`` to the world.] Victims, my @ss.

[A constitution that privitizes Iraq,]... This is the biggest rubbish that gets around in the socialist propaganda materials. Did you not know that in Qatar (where CENTCOM used to operate from), US corporations usually come in way last in oil bids? Usually, it is the European countries that have gotten most of the bids. So get off this nonsensical thought.

[.... sells it to foreign corporations, is no sovereignty, a governemnt put in place by elections held under foreign occupation is no election.]

Wah reh wah, dilbar rani.....tale lagaon ya pani?

Who said that we will have a perfect election the first time around? We will have elections until we get it right....And that is what democracy is all about. Is it not? Just look at the paindoos in Islamabad?

[... Regarding Saddam, he became demonized only after he decided to become too independant,] So? Employees always get fired, if they disobey.

[... before that he had the blessings of the same people that are now conducting this war- please read the history of Saddam and his visits to the American embassy in Egypt during his exile days-..] And he was also the butcher of Bagdad. You forget one thing...Iraq was a British enterprise and it has now become an American enterprise.... quite reluctantly, I might add.

[... apparently people were ``watching``, the lists that were given to him of leftists to eliminate once he came in power, also well documented, massive military aid, and the famous Rumsfeld handshake shortly after he had used chemical weapons- there were no talks of human rights then, only oil business!..] All because of his Trikriti upbringing. He was a real paindoo, then! Was he not? Why shed tears on such a corrupt leader?

[... It`s not only Iraq, what the US did in Latin America is much the same, same tactics, predictible, bureaucratized, automatic!] And we had at least two decades of some freedom.

Okay, so what is your point? You and your ilk want the US to get out of Iraq, and give the whole ``kitchree`` to Harkut-ur-Tehreer?

Just go to sleep for now and wake up in a decade or so.

Respectfully submitted,

#16- Apologists for the massive theft around the world by the American elite never cease to amaze me. After looting the wealth not only from the world but from their own citizens (a tiny 1% controls greater wealth than the rest of the 99% in the US), our apologist here presents them as victims!!

Yes, the world should not be held hostage to the few American corporations that are expropriating the oil reserves for their profits while the people whose land the oil is found in are impoverished. As a percentage of population America is using greater resources than anyone else, yet our friend here presents them as poor victims, ``hostages`` to the world.

A constitution that privitizes Iraq, sells it to foreign corporations, is no sovereignty, a governemnt put in place by elections held under foreign occupation is no election. Regarding Saddam, he became demonized only after he decided to become too independant, before that he had the blessings of the same people that are now conducting this war- please read the history of Saddam and his visits to the American embassy in Egypt during his exile days- apparently people were ``watching``, the lists that were given to him of leftists to eliminate once he came in power, also well documented, massive military aid, and the famous Rumsfeld handshake shortly after he had used chemical weapons- there were no talks of human rights then, only oil business! It`s not only Iraq, what the US did in Latin America is much the same, same tactics, predictible, bureaucratized, automatic!

Re: # 15

Dear masadi:

No... let us do some international business 101 here. Just because a resource if under some land, which is needed by the whole world (read oil), does not mean that the world should be held hostage. The world pays for it. Fact is that Japan and Europe need the middle eastern oil much more than the US does.

[The billions that you mention in ``investment``, are taken from the American public, using the excuse of fear mongering, Iraq war and human rights, then recycled to big American corporations, ending up as wealth in the pockets of the super-rich in America.] And that is what politicians do best. Remember, the US Congress gave the war powers act to the President and thats what counts.

[Iraq`s infrastructure is actually worse than it was before the war under Saddam,] Agreed, and this is because we are still at war. Now, that Saddam has been deposed, US is not the agressor. US is working to stop the insurgency in Iraq, so that a fair and legitimate elected government could start functioning.

[George Bush, gave as tax breaks to the rich, undercover of this fear mongering and military metaphysic.] Your history is convoluted. Tax refrom was passed much before 9/11 happened.

[If you are thinking in terms of a `return on investment` analysis-] No, I am thinking in terms of the whole oil infrastructure that was initiated and developed by the British firts, starting from oil exploration in Iran.

[... which is pretty inhumane as tens of thousands of lives have been lost, these thugs have recovered their initial investment (which wasn`t theirs to begin with but was stolen from the people) many times over.]

The biggest thug of the middle east was Saddam, and getting rid of him was the right thing to do. And, now you must get on with your life.

Respectfully submitted,

#14, let`s do an accounting 101 here:

The billions that you mention in ``investment``, are taken from the American public, using the excuse of fear mongering, Iraq war and human rights, then recycled to big American corporations, ending up as wealth in the pockets of the super-rich in America. Iraq`s infrastructure is actually worse than it was before the war under Saddam, child malnutrition is up, and the probability that a person will be killed violently up by 5800% according to research published in the Lancet and conducted by John Hopkins and Columbia University (reported by CNN as well on 10/29/`04- http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/ )

Added to this recycling is the price gouging and market manipulation by the oil giants whose profits soared in the aftermath of the war,- supply restriction enshrouded in fear is good for profit making, also, a sagging economy in the U.S., as a result of the `permanent war economy` (http://war.asadi.org) was lifted out of recession, and not mentioned so far are the trillions that the decoit in Washington, George Bush, gave as tax breaks to the rich, undercover of this fear mongering and military metaphysic.

If you are thinking in terms of a `return on investment` analysis- which is pretty inhumane as tens of thousands of lives have been lost, these thugs have recovered their initial investment (which wasn`t theirs to begin with but was stolen from the people) many times over. Good day to you all.

Re: # 3

Dear mirmir:

Wah reh wah, mirmir, with your suggestion.....[The U.S. should never have invaded Iraq - that should be abundantly clear to even the most obtuse. The U.S. ought to get the hell out - NOW. Not tomorrow, but right now, today. Military, CIA scum, Halliburton employees disguised as ``advisors`` - all of them.]

Have you ever left your own investments anywhere and just left from nothing? So why should the US leave over $400 Billion recent investment in the middle east oil industry?

Just because of those few insurgents, eh?

Respectfully submitted,

We need to be wary of all these ``kill`em to save`em`` types popping out of the woodwork. The word is the Pentagon is paying for all sorts of propaganda. We never know who`s on their pay...

Re: # 11

Dear Kulharee:

Are you suggesting to Arjun, that being an Indian is an inherent problem? What kind of a problem is this? [Arjun, no one is suggesting that it is your problem. You are Indian, and you don’t need any more problems.]

Anyway, well said.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 10

Arjun, no one is suggesting that it is your problem. You are Indian, and you don’t need any more problems.

#9 by Kulharee on December 2, 2005 10:46am PT


Shias and Kurds starting settling old accounts


And that`s my problem because....?


it will be non-Arab Jihadis again crying foul.


And that`s my problem because....?

Re: # 8

Arjun...

That’s not a very good idea.

If the Americans were to pull out and leave, and Shias and Kurds starting settling old accounts, it will be non-Arab Jihadis again crying foul. The problem is that they are never “satisfied” just like a village Khoti (female ass). Their disease is congenital and there’s no cure to it. Most of them are unemployed losers and they think that the whole world is there to get them. They are sad sad cases.

give the shias(and the kurds) the big guns and let them take over..They`ve got the oil, not the sunnis..

The shias arealready itching for some payback...Let them get some..