Withdrawing from Iraq (Part II): Considering Options

#116, viewers on here, the Palestine/Israel question is very simple, and it is viewed as very simple by leading historians. I gave reference of Oxford historian, Jew, Avi Shlaim, of Israeli right wing historian Benny Morris, of Oxford historian, Albert Hourani- these are authorities in the field, unlike the right wing terrorist group of Kahane in New York. Ignoring all this, our apologist for Israel denies the existance of Palestine and the Palestinian Arabs- not only is this nonsense, it is absurd.

In the 1948 war that Israel won, and Israel had numerical superiority in the field of battle contrary to popular mythology of the little David beating the big Goliath, it expelled over 700,000 indigeneous Arabs of palestine from that area. The UN partition mandate of 1947 gave the implanted Israeli entity 55% of historical Palestine even though their population was third of the population of the region and most were immigrants from outside. Now, after siding with Britain and attacking Egypt in 1956- a preemptive aggressive war, it preemtively attacked the Arabs in 1967 and captured the rest of the 45% of historical Palestine that was given by the UN to the Palestinian Arabs. In Oslo in 1993, the Palestinian leadership told Israel that they will accept that it keep instead of 55%, 78% of historical palestine and let them have 22% out of the 45% that they were given by the UN. Israel has refused and doesnt want peace, simple as that.

The UN resolution 242, asks as POINT NUMBER 1, for Israel to give back the territories it captured in 1967. Israel refuses that. After POINT NUMBER 1 is fulfilled, the UN asks ALL of the neighbouring countries including Israel to recognize the soverignity of the others.

In Palestine, (a historical entity under both the Ottomans and the British, that had indigeneous Palestinian Arabs living there for centuries, over 13 centuries- the vast majority of them), we have a simple case of an occupying FORCE and an occupied people. The cause of the conflict is the occupation, the Israelis dont want to get rid of the cause but they want to get rid of the effect, i.e. the Palestinian liberation struggle. That is not possible and morally reprehensible because what that means is that they want to continue the occupation and also want the Palestinians to be happy in their impoverished and subjugated state. I reject that, the Palestinians reject that and ALL people of conscience in the world regardless of religion, and nationality ALSO reject that. We see the empirical proof of this in the UN voting on resolutions against the Israeli oppression. Except for the US and Israel and a couple of island states, no one sides with the Israelis in their oppression of the Palestinians. This is the simple case which is being deliberately clouded and masked by the supporters of colonialism and US hegemony like behram 1.

# 115 masadi: But you are the leftist and you must answer some of the questions. I know that uou will fail with a big F, but at least try your stupid theory.

[Great going behram, you revealed yourself] No, it is you who has been revealed. You have been after facts, and here is one fact that was googled and you can not provide answers. Your shenanigans are so clear. Typical of how you were taught to behave by those who are liars, tricksters, and deceivers.

#113, you all will remember a while back I mentioned that the ``source`` that behram1 is using are right wing Zionist websites, and now he reveals his particulars. The Kahane group is the militant terrorist group that is famous for Baruch Goldstein the terrorist who went into the Aqsa mosque and like a coward opened fire on the worshippers. Great going behram, you revealed yourself

#113 great ``Fox News`` tactics, confuse people with non-issues and distractions, so that the truth which is very simple is clouded. I wont fall for this nonsense.

109 masadi: [.. if you want trivia answered, do a google on them and get your answers,} And this what I find...

PALESTINE THE COUNTRY???

If you are so sure that Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country:

· When was it founded and by whom?
· What were its borders?
· What was its capital?
· What were its major cities?
· What constituted the basis of its economy?
· What was its form of government?
· Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
· Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
· What was the language of the country of Palestine?
· What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
· What was the name of its currency?

· Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese Yuan on that date.

· And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

· If you are lamenting the low sinking of a once proud nation, please tell me, when exactly was that nation proud and what was it so proud of?

· And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call Palestinians are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day Palestinians to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history will not work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy.

For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it the Palestinian people and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the West Bank and Gaza, respectively?

http://jdl.org.il/palestine_the_country.htm

#110, what happened to Palestine is well known, it was stolen by force from its indigeneous inhabitants first by colonial decree and then by the state of Israel.

#110, colonial division could have similarly divided India, that does not make it right. There was a legal entity with legal tender described as Palestine both during the Ottoman era and the British era, described as such by the Balfour Declaration that gave concrete birth to the Zionist aspirations. You pick and choose what you want for your skewed definitions. All tricks by the imperialists and their supporters

109 masadi: Your absurdity knows no bounds. You have railed against nation states which is generally accepted definition of a country. A country that is reconized as an independent entity, and not some subset form of a provincial government. Palestine might have been a provincial entity, but never a sovereign country.

[What does a leader have to do with a territory?] What happened to that territory that you call Palestine? What it got gobbled up into the Ottoman empire?

[You definition of country is totally skewed.] Actually, it is you who have a screwed up definition of a country.

[You mean to tell me when the British ruled over India, and recognized it as a territory and established the ``East INDIA Company``, just because India didnt have an indigeneous ruler under the British, there was no India and there were no Indians?] No, you idiot, Palestine`s situation is different than India`s. When the Ottoman empire was finished, there were swaths of land that were available and were made countries. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Trans-Jordan, etc. Now these became the countries that were recognized as sovereign. Palestinians got stuck in this with the Israelis.

[Your absurdities know no bounds.] It is you who is absurd.

[It is all a part of the colonial mindset, deny the existance of a land and its people and you can rule it forever, that is what is going on in Palestine.] It is your bipolar mind that is just stuck. There has never been a Palestinian country.


[I`m not here for you entertainment.] You are an entertainer with this stupidity that you have been showing whichever site you show up. It is the US elite, it is colonial power, it is the bureaucrats, it everyone except you and people like you.


[Who the philistines were is immaterial, ] No, it is not. And that is the crux of the issue.

[.. the fact is that the Arab Palestinians have been there for over 1300 years,] They never were a sovereign country. THERE NEVER WAS A STATE CALLED PALESTINE.

#107, #108, I have proved to you in ample posts that there was a recognized legal entity both during the British and Ottoman times called Palestine, it had legal tender as money taht survives to this day, it had a defined geography, had people living there who identified themselves as falasteeney, but somehow you don`t get it. What does a leader have to do with a territory? You definition of country is totally skewed. You mean to tell me when the British ruled over India, and recognized it as a territory and established the ``East INDIA Company``, just because India didnt have an indigeneous ruler under the British, there was no India and there were no Indians? and all that was the invention of Gandhi. Your absurdities know no bounds. It is all a part of the colonial mindset, deny the existance of a land and its people and you can rule it forever, that is what is going on in Palestine. Kulharee if you want trivia answered, do a google on them and get your answers, I`m not here for you entertainment. Who the philistines were is immaterial, the fact is that the Arab Palestinians have been there for over 1300 years, they were the ones with deep roots there not the European Jews, the Zionists who in their racist attituted displaced them.

masadi: Here is another stupid brother of yours in Iran. This one is a civil engineer and has rocks inside his concrete skull just like you.

http://dawn.com/2005/12/09/top10.htm

Iranian president wants Israel moved to Europe

TEHRAN, Dec 8: Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday suggested that Israel be moved to Europe and expressed doubt that the Holocaust occurred. His comments, reported by Iran’s official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave in Makkah, follow his call in October for Israel to be ‘wiped off the map’, which sparked widespread international condemnation.

“Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail,” IRNA quoted Mr Ahmadinejad as saying.

“Although we don’t accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?” he said.

“If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe — like in Germany, Austria or other countries — to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it.”

“Why do they insist on imposing themselves on other powers and creating a tumour so there is always tension and conflict?”

Mr Ahmadinejad’s remarks drew swift rebukes from Israel, the US and Germany.

“This is not the first time, unfortunately, that the Iranian president has expressed the most outrageous ideas concerning Jews and Israel,” said Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Mark Regev. “He is not just Israel’s problem. He is a worry for the entire international community,” he added.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said: “It just further underscores our concerns about the regime in Iran and it’s all the more reason why it’s so important that the regime not have the ability to develop nuclear weapons.”

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said the EU’s nuclear diplomacy is ‘not made easier by the fact that Mr Ahmadinejad comes up with new ideas, that the people of Israel could move to Germany and Austria, to resolve the ME problem’.—Reuters/AFP

Re: # 105

Asadi Sahib.. for the benefits of those who are not as versed in History as you Dear sir, please tell us the following in straight, simple and easy to understand terms:

- What is the origin of the word “Palestine”?
- Who were Philistine?
- Who was the first leader of sovereign legal Palestine?

I am sure by now you must have heard Ahmadinijad’s address to the OIC in Mecca. By any chance do you agree with him? Do you also deny Holocaust?

#105 masadi: You have a concrete skull, and you are bipolar. The fact is that THERE NEVER WAS A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE.

Gosh...your stupidity shows no limits. How stupid ARE you?

[I back my assertions up with facts.] You have no facts but nonsensical rhetoric. You are a liar and a trickster and a deceiver. The only fact is that THERE NEVER WAS A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE. And that is the fact.

You are delusional in your thoughts. Today`s world knows more than ever that Palestinian terrorism promoted by Yasser Arafat`s policies are the root cause of terrorism in the middle east, and they have started taking action.

You wear dirty clothes. You are mostly in your pajamas, that is at least 6 inches above your ankles. You sit on your feet on the toilet bowl. And you do not brush your teeth. You use misvak. You use two towels to dry yourself when you bathe. And you are ugly.

Look at all the site that you show up.

No one else participates because you are like a crazy person talking rubbish. This site is the prime example. Your views and your opinions are completely rejected.

#104, you speak without proof or facts, I back my assertions up with facts. Also behram1, repeating falsehood, supplemented with insults like ``Abaye olloo...`` does not convert the falsehood into truth. A country is defined by 1. geographic boundary 2. legal status 3. recognized as such by neighbouring territories; in the Ottoman era all 3 defined Palestine. Your sense of history starts with the UN which POST dates Palestine.

#103 masadi: Abaye olloo...
There was never, ever.... a country called Palestine. Your bipolar brains should get it.

#102, more nonsense, Palestine was a legal entity under the Ottomans, and was predominantly composed of Arab Palestinians. Just like America is mostly composed of European Americans. How difficult is that to understand?

Re: # 101

Asadi Sahib, that’s true. There was no Jordan, and neither was there any country called Israel (kingdom, yes). Israel was created by the UN in 1948. Palestinians also had a chance to create their homeland as well, but they rejected. The Palestinian territory under the Ottoman and the British mandate was just that, a territory and not a Nation or a country. If Palestine, as you claim, was a “country”, who was their leader? People get displaced and that’s the bitter pill of history which everyone needs to swallow. Half of Mexico is part of the US now, Northern Ireland will always be part of Great Britain, and Kashmir will never be independent.

But the name Palestine is Roman… the inhabitants of Palestine were not “Arabs”… they were Phillistine (Greeks and Romans) who were defeated by David.. it is after them the place was named, and not Arabs. Yes, this place has had many rulers, even before David and after him. These Palestinians that you talk about never had their own country in the history of the world, and by the way things are going, they might never have one.

#100, Kulharee Sahib, as usual facts have outrun your sensibilities. Not only was there a legal entity known as Palestine under the Ottomans, and before them the Arabs, there survive coins and currency from that period that says Palestine on it. Also, the British, according to historical documents called that territory Palestine, as stated in the Balfour Declaration, that gave birth to Israel, and the fact is that Palestine predates both Jordan as a territory and the state of Israel. Please get your facts straight.

Re: # 99

Asadi Sahib.. Romans called it Palestine when they ruled the holy land. There never was a sovereign state called Palestine. EVER. I think your hatred of the US and Jews has turned you into a very negative and a bitter person. I pray for your recovery. And please don’t get me wrong, but you sound like a real idiot and a loser.

#88 How could you not have read it when in #82, you use part of that post where I refer to ``social scientist`` and mock me with it? Enough said!, be honest with yourself.

#97 masadi: No, I did not know that you already answered it. My apologies.

Your posts are very long and maybe all the rubbish that you write hides some of the answers in them. You must be a life long bureucrat, and that is why you are so much against bureucrats. You did not answer (I think?) me previously if you were a Punjabi?

I answered that ignorant post by Kulharee, and you know I answered it but to deceive people on here you reproduce it detached from its answer- is that honesty? Is that intellectual integrity? I think now. Once again I asked you for a source, and you fail to produce one, totally failed to produce one.

For the ones who want to see how I answered Kulharee in #76, read #77 or for your convenience I reproduce it below:

<<<#76, The Israeli Armed Forces they call them IDF, where the D is for Defense- total nonsense are part of the state of Israel, and Behram1 is supporting the state`s terrorism against the Palestinians. On the other hand the suicide bombers are an insignificant minority among the Palestinians and are not representatives of them. Their actions are worthy of condemnation but the Palestinians are not blameworthy for their actions. There is a clear difference here. Also, as a social scientist when I look at the abnormal phenomena of suicide bombing, I cannot view it in a detached manner, detached from social institutions and structure- like you and behram1 are doing- which is based upon total ignorance of society.

When suicide becomes a part of the daily life of a community, it is an abnormality that must have a social context and cause. This ``opposition culture`` can only be neutralised if what nourishes it is eradicated. Israel`s oppression and humiliation of the Palestinian people provides reason for the would-be suicide bombers, in their mind, to indulge in what they do -- this is how an ``opposition culture`` operates, like it or not. Similar conditions in the inner cities in the US lead to an oppositional ``code of the street`` and perpetuates street crime. No brutal police crackdown will ever fix the effect without addressing the cause. We see something similar happening in Iraq. There weren`t any suicide bombings prior to the US invasion there- the cause therefore is the US invasion, you cannot detach facts from their causes and then present them as propaganda ``bits of information``, to perpetuate occupation- like Israel and the US are doing in the case of Palestine and Iraq . This is the anatomy of the problem, yet it is deliberately ignored by those who want to perpetuate not only the occupation both of Israel and Iraq but also want this opposition culture and its effects to continue, because they use them as ulterior motives to keep the oppression going and the profits flowing. By supporting the oppressors world-view you are supporting the oppression and the crime. >>>

Now, this is not about me or about the idiot who is challenging me without any facts or proof or references, it is about the truth; and the fact that the people he is supporting, the American elite and the Israeli elite, are not only harming the world by their short sightedness, they are harming their own people as well on levels much greater than any harm any criminal suicide bomber can do. Every single day over 40,000 people die on earth due to preventible causes, cause by distributional deprivation in a world of plenty, directly caused by domination of trade and implicit domination of the state and economic institutions of the developing countries by this same elite. I cannot support their actions, I reject them, and I will keep on rejecting them based upon truth and justice. The day that I stop rejecting them is the day that I will curse my very existance for it will be worthless.

masadi: this is what Kulharee (#76) wrote:

[Asadi Sahi, aint you accusing Behram of supporting Israeli’s actions? How is your support for Palestinians any different from his concerns for Israel’s safety and security? Do you have different set of rules for yourself? I havenst seen anything by you condemning suicide bombers or speaking up against them as much as you like to utter your usual mantra of American Elite. I mean hello? Where is the condemnation of the dogs aka suicide bombers and their filthy supporters and financiers? I was gonna say that not only you are ignorant but also a bigot, but I wont.]

And that is the opinion most people have about you. Do you understand what the post means?

#94 masadi: You are the deceiver and the liar and the trickster. And people know that. You are intellectually dishonest and you know that. The rubbish books that you read is no source of enlightenment. You have no knowledge. You hide behind all the stupidity that the liars, the tricksters, and the deceivers have taught you. I will not provide you with any source, because I am the source. You will have to live with that.

You are biased against humanity in Kurdistan, in Baluchistan, and no, you have not provided any answer to this question. All throughout history, there were many people of many lands, and they were all called something. And the Palestinians are one such group of people. There was never a bonafide (do you understand this word?) country.

Why was Imam of Mecca, great grandfather of the King Abdullah of Jordan given the throne of Trans-Jordan? According to your theory he is an outsider, is he not?

Don`t try to deceive the people, I have already answered your question about Kurdistan and Baluchistan and the other stans- don`t try to distract the people, this is part of your trickery- Give me ONE historical source by a historian and his book which says that there was no Palestine in history and that there were no Palestinian Arabs living there before Israel was created in 1947. Give me a source or SHUT UP. I gave you many sources

Re: # 92: masadi: There you go once again with your stupidity. If you consider Palestine as a country then why don`t you consider Kurdistan as a separate country? And that suits your western masters just fine. Does it?

You purposely try to create a distinction between the Jewish people and the Jewish political party that espoused freedom for the Jews and got them a homeland. You brand them all as Zionist and then brand them as racist. There is nothing wrong for a Jew to be Zionist. But, then you brand them as racist and that is where you are wrong.

Your corrupt surrounding of liars, tricksters, and decievers have taught you just that. And you should be ashamed of that because that does not provide you with the intellectual honesty.

So when it comes to the corrupt Palestinian leaders suddenly the world has to hear they are being victimized, but when it comes to the Kurds you and your ilk are suddenly quite. For all these years, people like you have terrorized the world not only in deeds but also in words, and now you and your ilk have gotten into terrorizing people`s thoughts as well.

And Thank Almighty the world is smarter today to identify and isolate your shenanigans.

Nowhere in today`s world body have they identified Palestine as a bonafide country. You are as illogical as your surrounding. Why are all the wars between Israel and Arabs are always called Arab/Israeli war? Did you know why they always call it the Arab/Israeli war because the Arabs have always been the aggressor....nuances not withstanding. Arabs have never wanted peace with Israel. And that is a fact. Your intellectual thuggery is rather obvious.

[The Jews my friend were persecuted by your Christian West, not by the Arabs.]Oh, yeah....I will not go down the history lane and elucidate what the Arabs did to the Jews. Once, they subjugate a minority completely, then of course, they will brag about how great their society has been towards the minority. Give me a break.

The other day, the other fundoo on this Chowk was educating me that it was the Zoroastrian Persians who invited the Arab wrath on their developed country. How rubbish that can be? This kind of history can only make sense to the corrupt mind who is perpetually trying to trick and deceive people. Trust me, I can see through the rubbishness that you promote and I will call a spade when I see one.

#91, I have been tolerating your nonsense for quite a while now. Not only are you totally ignorant of history and society, you are outdoing your Zionist masters, even they wouldn`t support your fundamentalism. You talk about hate, you are the hater. People are trapped in impoverished prisons in Palestine- yes Palestine, an OFFICIAL entity from centuries back, recognized as an official entity both by the OTTOMANS and the BRITISH according to historical documents. Albert Hourani, Oxford Historian, confirms not only this but also that the vast majority of people living there were Palestinian Arabs. He calls the Joan Peters and Zionist assertion about no Palestine and no Arab Palestinians as laughably absurd.

Israel does not want peace. It has made ZERO concessions, while the Palestinians in Oslo, not only gave it a huge chunk of their territory, on top of the unfair division of the UN, they practically were begging them for peace, yes begging for peace but Israel doesnt want it.

You say, without evidence again that I am surrounded by liars and tricksters, for your info, I am not surrounded by anybody, not one person. My conclusions are based upon objective analysis or a simple problem. There is no complication in the Arab/Israel conflict. We have the CAUSE of conflict, occupation and the age old Zionist attempt to displace the Palestinian Arabs, which they did, a vast majority over 52% of them live outside the territories now thanks to Israel. The EFFECT of this cause is a freedom struggle by the Palestinians which you term terrorism. Now take the CAUSE away and the EFFECT is bound to go away. No big complications in this analysis.

The Jews my friend were persecuted by your Christian West, not by the Arabs. Their golden years were in Andalusia under Muslim rule, this they recognize themselves. Jews are not the same as Zionists, neither do they all support the Zionists. The vast majority in Israel, the public, not the government who rules over them, wants a just peace, with the Palestinians, as do the vast majority of Palestinians. Oslo bears withness to the fact that the Palestinian government has made all kinds of sacrifices, inspite of the fact that Israel has destroyed their institutions, to BEG for peace- which they have been denied.

# 90: What nonsense are you talking about? Frankly, I believe that Israel is anxiously waiting for a partner in peace and the fanatic Arabs are unable to understand that. That is all what Arabs have learnt from the Ottoman Turks. After all the Ottoman Turks ruled over them for 5 centuries. Civilization and enlightenment have gone way past them. Their muderous thinking is evident globally. Their strategy of being a victim is also well known. So, their new modality of gaining any political mileage is first act as a victim and then at the same time create hate and kill everybody who disagree with their way of thinking.

[the facts do speak for themselves when understood.] Your level of thinking is way off. So you can understand whatever you desire. You are a person full of hate and it can be seen in your posts.

[Israel got out of Gaza because it had nothing it wanted there,] You are right, and all it wants with the Arabs is peace, which it is unable to get.

[.. worse off due to Israel not the Palestinians, whose existance you are still denying.] This is a total fabrication of your corrupt thought. I have never denied that there were never a group of Arabs who call themselves Palestininians. For that matter, I am sure that there are some jewish Palestinians, but nevertheless, there never was a country called Palestine, with regular geography, regular government, etc. And that is a fact.

[You outdo the Zionists in your love for Zionism, which is quite amazing as a phenomenon.]Why is accepting a Jews right to their own country an amazing phenomenon? The Jews have been persecuted for so many years, and it is about time that they are given their due place in the world of communities.

But, how would you know that? You are surrounded by liars, tricksters, and deceivers, who have constantly drummed into you that except for your kind everyone else can go to hell. Once again, you are a person full of hate, and it can be seen in your posts.

[ In days gone by, when the Field Slaves,] And it is a well known fact that slavery was another instrument that was promoted by the Arabs.

[Eventually, the truth always ruins falsehood.]And you are the bearer of falsehood. You are a liar, you are a trickster, and you are a deceiver. You are a Shaitan.

#88, the facts do speak for themselves when understood. You don`t present facts, you present propaganda, lies and non-issues, packaged for impact, like Fox News. Israel got out of Gaza because it had nothing it wanted there, and it scored propaganda points. Gaza is actually worse off now by being surrounded than it was before; worse off due to Israel not the Palestinians, whose existance you are still denying. You outdo the Zionists in your love for Zionism, which is quite amazing as a phenomenon. In days gone by, when the Field Slaves, those who worked in the field, wanted to escape the master`s oppression, and sought help from the House slaves, the House slaves seldom helped them get emancipated. Instead the House slaves were even more loving of the master`s house than the master himself. That is how they talked, when the master was sick and they had to ask him how he was feeling, they used to form the question as ``master, WE sick?``- see the mentality, yours is the same. A total slave to the masters, regardless of fact or truth.

#89: The Wesley Clark article is useless. We don`t expect peace-talk from a warlord like Wesley Clark. All he knows is war. His whole life has been war. He is a damn warlord. That is how the power elite in the US come to be of a single world view- the military metaphysic, Mills called it. Clark started off in command of the military institution, wanted to become president (command of the political institution), and will probably end up as CEO or board member of one of the corporations of the Military Industries, like Raytheon, Northup Grumann or Lockheed Martin etc. Yes, they want to perpetuate war, and suffering. Iran emerging as winner, so what, they play one side against the other anyway there is nothing new in this; in Afghanistan the group Iran was siding with was supported by the US, so also in Iraq, because the Sunnis are challenging the American imperialism at present. Tomorrow, it might be some ohter group that they support and benefit (once they supported Osama`s people, remember Afghanistan in the 1980s?).

The fact is the US might go along with one group or the other in the short run, but in the long run they ensure their own benefits and hegemony. Clark`s article just tries to confuse using short run analysis even as his main goal is to perpetuate the conflict that feeds the US permanent war economy and ``footprint`` (an official US term) in an oil rich region and as well the protection of Israel from a God forbid developed Arab world! This they want to avoid at all cost. They do not even hide these reasons, the Project for the New American Century (they now populate the Bush Cabinet, or other high ranks in his Admn) wrote all these reasons to Clinton in their 1998 letter asking him to take military action against Iraq, back in 1998 same reasons and same excuses that were resurrected after 9/11 by Bush and co to lie to the American people to invade Iraq. Their 1998 letter to Clinton can be read on their website at
http://newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Eventually, the truth always ruins falsehood. That is what is going to happen. The US will be forced out of Iraq, with its tail between its legs. And if Israel doesnt make a just peace with the Palestinians, it will lose big time. Mark these words, it is going to happen eventually

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/06/opinion/06clark.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Op-Ed Contributor

The Next Iraq Offensive

By WESLEY K. CLARK
Published: December 6, 2005
Doha, Qatar

WHILE the Bush administration and its critics escalated the debate last week over how long our troops should stay in Iraq, I was able to see the issue through the eyes of America`s friends in the Persian Gulf region. The Arab states agree on one thing: Iran is emerging as the big winner of the American invasion, and both President Bush`s new strategy and the Democratic responses to it dangerously miss the point. It`s a devastating critique. And, unfortunately, it is correct.

While American troops have been fighting, and dying, against the Sunni rebels and foreign jihadists, the Shiite clerics in Iraq have achieved fundamental political goals: capturing oil revenues, strengthening the role of Islam in the state, and building up formidable militias that will defend their gains and advance their causes as the Americans draw down and leave. Iraq`s neighbors, then, see it evolving into a Shiite-dominated, Iranian buffer state that will strengthen Tehran`s power in the Persian Gulf just as it is seeks nuclear weapons and intensifies its rhetoric against Israel.

The American approach shows little sense of Middle Eastern history and politics. As one prominent Kuwaiti academic explained to me, in the Muslim world the best way to deal with your enemies has always been to assimilate them - you never succeed in killing them all, and by trying to do so you just make more enemies. Instead, you must woo them to rejoin society and the government. Military pressure should be used in a calibrated way, to help in the wooing.

If this critique is correct - and it is difficult to argue against it - then we must face its implications. ``Staying the course`` risks a slow and costly departure of American forces with Iraq increasingly factionalized and aligned with Iran. Yet a more rapid departure of American troops along a timeline, as some Democrats are calling for, simply reduces our ability to affect the outcome and risks broader regional conflict.

We need to keep our troops in Iraq, but we need to modify the strategy far more drastically than anything President Bush called for last week.

On the military side, American and Iraqi forces must take greater control of the country`s borders, not only on the Syrian side but also in the east, on the Iranian side. The current strategy of clearing areas near Syria of insurgents and then posting Iraqi troops, backed up by mobile American units, has had success. But it needs to be expanded, especially in the heavily Shiite regions in the southeast, where there has been continuing cross-border traffic from Iran and where the loyalties of the Iraqi troops will be especially tested.

We need to deploy three or four American brigades, some 20,000 troops, with adequate aerial reconnaissance, to provide training, supervision and backup along Iraq`s several thousand miles of vulnerable border. And even then, the borders won`t be ``sealed``; they`ll just be more challenging to penetrate.

We must also continue military efforts against insurgent strongholds and bases in the Sunni areas, in conjunction with Iraqi forces. Over the next year or so, this will probably require four to six brigade combat teams, plus an operational reserve, maybe 30,000 troops.

But these efforts must go hand-in-glove with intensified outreach to Iraqi insurgents, to seek their reassimilation into society and their assistance in wiping out residual foreign jihadists. Iraqi and American officials have had sporadic communications with insurgent leaders, but these must lead to deeper discussions on issues like amnesty for insurgents who lay down their arms and opportunities for their further participation in public and private life.

Iraq, for its part, must begin to enforce the ban on armed militias that was enshrined in the new Constitution, especially in the south. Ideally, this should be achieved voluntarily, through political means. But American muscle will have to be made available as a last resort. The Iraqi government should request that for the next two years, six to eight American brigades serve as a backup, available as a last resort if there is trouble in cities with large militia factions like Baghdad, Basra and Najaf. And it is vital that the Pentagon provide our forces with better crowd-control training and many more translators than they have now.

As important as these military changes are, they won`t matter at all unless our political strategy is rethought. First, the Iraqis must change the Constitution as quickly as possible after next week`s parliamentary elections. Most important, oil revenues should be declared the property of the central government, not the provinces. And the federal concept must be modified to preclude the creation of a Shiite autonomous region in the south.

Also, a broad initiative to reduce sectarian influence within government institutions is long overdue. The elections, in which Sunnis will participate, will help; but the government must do more to ensure that all ethnic and religious groups are represented within ministries, police forces, the army, the judiciary and other overarching federal institutions.

And we must start using America`s diplomatic strength with Syria and Iran. The political weakness of Bashar al-Assad opens the door for significant Syrian concessions on controlling the border and cutting support for the jihadists. We also have to stop ignoring Tehran`s meddling and begin a public dialogue on respecting Iraqi independence, which will make it far easier to get international support against the Iranians if (and when) they break their word.

Yes, our military forces are dangerously overstretched. Recruiting and retention are suffering; among retired officers, there is deep concern that the Bush administration`s attitude on the treatment of detainees has jeopardized not only the safety of our troops but the moral purpose of our effort.

Still, none of this necessitates a pullout until the job is done. After the elections, we should be able to draw down by 30,000 troops from the 160,000 now there. Don`t bet against our troops.

What a disaster it would be if the real winner in Iraq turned out to be Iran, a country that supports terrorism and opposes most of what we stand for. Surely, we can summon the wisdom, resources and bipartisan leadership to change the American course before it is too late.

Re: # 87

Dear masadi:

[The facts speak for themselves,] How is that possible? Your fact is different than mine and that is why there is some disagreement.

[Peace is made by the occupiers not the occupied,] It takes two warring parties to accept that peace is the only option they have. The Palestinians, of late, are realizing that.

[the cause of the violence is occupation,] The cause of violence is the perpetual state of war that Israel finds itself with the Arabs.

[Israel does not want peace, so there is no peace.] Then, why did Israel get out of Gaza on it`s own?

[In establishing causation, the CAUSE preceeds the EFFECT in time. They detach the effect from the cause and then present it as excuse to reapply the cause. That is only going to make things worse not better.]Huh! What is theory? When the Mongols came to get rid of the Arabs in this area, what was that all about?

Respectfully submitted,

The facts speak for themselves, the Palestinians accepted in the OSLO Accords the existance of Israel on 78% rather than the 55% of historic Palestine given to them by the UN. That was in 1993 not 1998 as behram1 suggested but now that he has got caught in an error he changes it to the charter. Even there he is wrong, those changes were approved by law in 1996. Nevertheless it merely serves as distraction point, this whole charter business. That charter was an old, old document dating from 1968 immediately after the war. If America was attacked and occupied, the resistance here would draw up a similar charter as would anyone else. You have to get rid of the occupiers.

The rest is quite obvious to the readers. Peace is made by the occupiers not the occupied, the cause of the violence is occupation, take the cause away and violence will go away as well. Israel does not want peace, so there is no peace. The situation is the same as the US neo-cons claiming that Iraq is the main front on the ``war on terror``- even though this violence post-dates their invasion. In establishing causation, the CAUSE preceeds the EFFECT in time. They detach the effect from the cause and then present it as excuse to reapply the cause. That is only going to make things worse not better.

Re: # 84

Dear masadi:

You are insane by suggesting that the Clinton peace plan was a facade. I am no fan of Clinton by any stretch of the imagination, but that will be the best the Palestinian will ever get for a long time. The right of return can never be accepted by the Jewish state. Even thinking that there is a remote possibility shows how naive you are.

Upon failure of the 2000 Clinton plan, Yasser Arafat has been quoted as saying that the right of return and the status of Jeruselum were the main stumbling blocks.

Well, as far as Israel is concerned both these issues are non-negotiable.

[ our Israeli apologist says 1998- another factual error in his presentation.] No, 1998 (?)was the year when the Palestinian Authority removed Israel`s destruction from its charter.

[ come on, if peace was what Israel and the US wanted,] Your theory is once again, backwards. If Palestinians are the victims then they should be clamoring for peace. Instead, after Oslo in 1993, PLO came back in BMW`s and machine guns, and stole over $1B of money given for their people. PLO never wanted peace under their leader Yasser Arafat. It is very easy for the PLO to disrupt any peace effort.

[Close your eyes and imagine a WHOLE country as an impoverished prison- ] There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 83

Dear masadi:

Is that all you have? You run dry on your intellect? Where is the force of your conviction?

[I don`t need to address Behram1, and his cheerleader Kulharee, anymore on either issue, Iraq or Israel- people can make out where the truth lies, it is quite obvious.]

And people have seen your nonsense. Your views are not shared by any muslim Chowki. Did you realize that? This appears to be a dead site, and it is because most people recognize the gibberish of your posts.

Remove the liars, the tricksters, and the deceivers that surround you and you will be enlightened. And you will gain the force of your conviction. And to keep your sanity, (if you have any left) quit watching Aljazeera. Remember Aljazeera is mainly for the Arabs.

Respectfully submitted,

Reagrding why Camp David (the Clinton peace facade) failed, it was not Arafat`s fault, what was being offered to the Palestinians were chopped up ``Bantustans``, 4 seperate slum areas, cantons completely surrounded by Israel; that could never have functioned as a nation, a mere ``divide and rule to perpetuity`` formula legalized by a farce of an international agreement. Surrounded economically and militarily by Israel, they were being set up for failure, just packaging it in flowery legal language. Only a total idiot and sell-out would have accepted it. Like I said they- the Israeli elite and the US elite, do not want a just peace, they want to extend the occupation because a state of conflict in that region let`s them under cover of violence, fulfill their many other motives. Also Barak refused to accept the moral responsibility for the refugees, who were expelled by direct action of Israel, he didn`t even want to discuss it; he refused any moral responsibility.

In the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestinians had accepted the right of Israel to keep 78% of the territory rather than the 55% given by the UN- that was 1993, our Israeli apologist says 1998- another factual error in his presentation. Now in the Clinton farce plan, over this 78%, the Israelis were demanding 9% more ``permanent``, plus access to an additional 10% as ``long term lease``. As compensation they were giving the ``bantustans`` 1% more. If accepted, that so called peace plan would have just legalized the prisons (in the entire West Bank and Gaza area) that Israel has created. What did they do after the plans failed, they used their propaganda machine to convince the world that Arafat didn`t want peace- come on, if peace was what Israel and the US wanted, it would have become a reality long ago since they have the power in that region, the victor makes the peace not the occupied. Close your eyes and imagine a WHOLE country as an impoverished prison- that is the reality of the existance of the Palestinians- a real people belonging to a real country that has been stolen and occupied by barbaric, ruthless force

#81, when you quote sources make sure they are factual, talking about things that have occurred, and are not BS stories inserted here and there by the US intelligence services based on BS sources, like they did in Iraq, for the cause of alarmism and to support their atmosphere of fear at home- The Daily Times of Pakistan is a non-credible source- the social science that I talk about on the other hand is pretty well established. I don`t need to address Behram1, and his cheerleader Kulharee, anymore on either issue, Iraq or Israel- people can make out where the truth lies, it is quite obvious. Behram1`s concern for truth and sincerity is also revealed by his writing style. After a full page worth of insults, he ends his letter with ``respectfully submitted``- Israeli and US elite hypocrisy is much the same. Good day to you all.

Re: # 77

Dear masadi:

Your gibberish is going on and on and on, and it seems that you are a spoilt brat who has no world knowledge to speak of.

Let me educate you what will happen in Iraq, if and when the coalition forces leave that star-stricken country. There will be a civil war of unimaginable proportion. Kurds and Shias are waiting to get their hands on the Sunnis.

[Also, as a social scientist when I look at the abnormal phenomena of suicide bombing,] You are joking...``as a social scientist``..yeah right!

[There weren`t any suicide bombings prior to the US invasion there-] This is correct because Sunni Saddam was a ruthless despotic ruler. Wait till Shias and Kurds get their turn, and you will eventually see complete law and order restored in a few months.

[ By supporting the oppressors world-view you are supporting the oppression and the crime.] I support law and order. The criminals are the Iraqi insurgents.

Respectfully submitted,

#77 by masadi on December 6, 2005 1:09pm PT


When suicide becomes a part of the daily life of a community, it is an abnormality that must have a social context and cause.


Really?

Suicide squads being formed to kill Shias in NAs

Re: # 73

Dear masadi:

As numerical numbers would show there are more Arabs than Israelis. And then, you have used killings of one nation by individuals who are not a nation as of yet. There is no nation called Palestine. Arabs have staged a war on the State of Israel since its inception, and that must be stopped. Your gibberish regarding cruelty could be justified if Israel behaves similarly on its own Arab minority, which it does not. Just have a look at your own muslim nations and you can easily see what minorities are going through.

[According to behram1`s skewed worldview, the occupier is the peaceful, the occupied are the terrorists.] Obviously you have a twisted logic here. Nowhere, have I suggested this particular notion. Israel however, is continuously waiting for a partner in peace, which is quite foreign to the Palestinians.

[Person for person, Israel has killed several times the number of Palestinian civilians and children, that it has lost.] Actually on a per capita basis, Israelis have lost more of its citizens that these rock throwing and suicide bombing Palestinians. I do not have the current ratio of population between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[ The conditions it has created in the occupied territories and the institutions that it has completely destroyed and the poverty it has perpetuated there makes it impossible for people in that area to live in any normal conditions or to control those who would make mischief.] And all the more reason to get the settlement as quickly as possible. The haughty attitude of the Palestinians is one reason there can never be any peace between the two warring parties.


[ Israel wants to keep the situation that way because it is easy for it to use those individual cases of suicide bombings to justify and perpetuate its occupation and settlement building. ]

Absolutely incorrect. President Clinton`s initiative (in 2000) was so close between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat, that the world thought they probably are close to an agreement. But, unfortunately, the terrorist in Yasser Arafat got the better of him.


[The Palestinians have already recognized Israel`s existance and give it surplus territory, they have accepted that it keep the 78% even though the UN only gave them 55%, but Israel does not even want to return the remaining 22%. ]

This item was only accepted since 1998 (?). It took them over 3 decades to come to this level of understanding. Well, at this rate of knowledge gathering, the Palestinians might give up the right to return in another 3 decades.

By that time, it is a moot point for most of us.

[Know, behram1, that by supporting this inhumanity by Israel you share in that evil with them. You are a criminal just as the Israeli elite are criminals. Good day.]

Of course this is the level of your intellectual integrity. As Kulharee has asked you do you share in the evilness of the killers amongst Palestinians?

Respectfully submitted,

#78, once again you show ignorance of history 1967 was a Pre-emptive war, launched by Israel. Your Zionist and American masters would be getting pretty upset with you and behram1 by now because you both are doing a terrible job in presenting their lies- messing up on every occassion. Need I say more?

Re: # 77

>>>>The Israeli Armed Forces they call them IDF, where the D is for Defense- total nonsense are part of the state of Israel…<<<

Asadi Sahib, I think they demonstrated the “D” part rather amicably during the war of 1967 when they had to defend against vultures from not just one, but three countries. You must give credit where it is due.

#76, The Israeli Armed Forces they call them IDF, where the D is for Defense- total nonsense are part of the state of Israel, and Behram1 is supporting the state`s terrorism against the Palestinians. On the other hand the suicide bombers are an insignificant minority among the Palestinians and are not representatives of them. Their actions are worthy of condemnation but the Palestinians are not blameworthy for their actions. There is a clear difference here. Also, as a social scientist when I look at the abnormal phenomena of suicide bombing, I cannot view it in a detached manner, detached from social institutions and structure- like you and behram1 are doing- which is based upon total ignorance of society.

When suicide becomes a part of the daily life of a community, it is an abnormality that must have a social context and cause. This ``opposition culture`` can only be neutralised if what nourishes it is eradicated. Israel`s oppression and humiliation of the Palestinian people provides reason for the would-be suicide bombers, in their mind, to indulge in what they do -- this is how an ``opposition culture`` operates, like it or not. Similar conditions in the inner cities in the US lead to an oppositional ``code of the street`` and perpetuates street crime. No brutal police crackdown will ever fix the effect without addressing the cause. We see something similar happening in Iraq. There weren`t any suicide bombings prior to the US invasion there- the cause therefore is the US invasion, you cannot detach facts from their causes and then present them as propaganda ``bits of information``, to perpetuate occupation- like Israel and the US are doing in the case of Palestine and Iraq . This is the anatomy of the problem, yet it is deliberately ignored by those who want to perpetuate not only the occupation both of Israel and Iraq but also want this opposition culture and its effects to continue, because they use them as ulterior motives to keep the oppression going and the profits flowing. By supporting the oppressors world-view you are supporting the oppression and the crime.

Re: # 75

Asadi Sahi, aint you accusing Behram of supporting Israeli’s actions? How is your support for Palestinians any different from his concerns for Israel’s safety and security? Do you have different set of rules for yourself? I havenst seen anything by you condemning suicide bombers or speaking up against them as much as you like to utter your usual mantra of American Elite. I mean hello? Where is the condemnation of the dogs aka suicide bombers and their filthy supporters and financiers? I was gonna say that not only you are ignorant but also a bigot, but I wont.

#74, please point out for all of us where I support the actions of those people. Otherwise keep your ignorance off the public domain.

Re: # 73

>>>Know, behram1, that by supporting this inhumanity by Israel you share in that evil with them. You are a criminal just as the Israeli elite are criminals. Good day.<<<

Asadi Sahib…do you share some of the blame of killing the innocent Israelis? Are you as criminal as the elite suicide bombers?

According to behram1`s skewed worldview, the occupier is the peaceful, the occupied are the terrorists. In this distorted reality the country with one of the world`s most lethal military force and weapons of mass destruction (Israel) is the victim, while the stone throwing Palestinian youth are the aggressors. Person for person, Israel has killed several times the number of Palestinian civilians and children, that it has lost. The conditions it has created in the occupied territories and the institutions that it has completely destroyed and the poverty it has perpetuated there makes it impossible for people in that area to live in any normal conditions or to control those who would make mischief. Israel wants to keep the situation that way because it is easy for it to use those individual cases of suicide bombings to justify and perpetuate its occupation and settlement building. The Palestinians have already recognized Israel`s existance and give it surplus territory, they have accepted that it keep the 78% even though the UN only gave them 55%, but Israel does not even want to return the remaining 22%.

Know, behram1, that by supporting this inhumanity by Israel you share in that evil with them. You are a criminal just as the Israeli elite are criminals. Good day.

Re: # 71

Dear masadi:

No one has ever suggested that Israel is dying for the recognition from the Arabs. Due to this belligerence of the Palestinians, what is however obvious that Israel does not have a partner in peace. Countries can not have peace with those who do not exist.

[as if Israel is dying to hear from the lips of the Palestinian authority ``We recognize you`` and it will pack up and rush out of the west bank.] After that recognition, the Israelis will have to monitor their behavior for awhile.

Yes, masadi, peace is not an easy situation for those who have lived by terror. Destruction is so much easy for these despotic Arab leaders. They have always preffered darkness over light. Just look at the way they have treated their own people.

Respectfully submitted,

#69 & #70 are so atrocious that I wont even dignify them with a response. Look at the recommendation for peace, as if Israel is dying to hear from the lips of the Palestinian authority ``We recognize you`` and it will pack up and rush out of the west bank. Laughably naive

Re: # 68

Dear masadi:

[If I had the power, I`d abolish all national boundaries and laws associated with those boundaries.] Thank God that you don`t have the power. Frankly, you don`t even have the intelligence. You are just the same like the rest of those fanatic mullahs who espouse your vision.

[ Apparently behram1 doesn`t understand what a bureaucracy is and what a bureaucratized society does to human reason and freedom, so he is getting confused on why I am against that.] All you want is the supremacy of your value system. It has nothing to do with law and order. Laws are made by elected officials of a bonafide country and not by some intellectual theorist or some fanatic believer.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 66

Dear masadi:

So this is how your twisted logic works. You say that there was a Palestine, as a country before Israel was formed in 1948. In the UN, most countries get immediate recognition, as a country and not as a group of people. Pakistan was recognized as sovereign state in 1947. Most enlightened countries of the world have recognized Israel as a sovereign state. When was Palestine recognized as a sovereign country by the UN?

[here ladies and gentlmen we see how tyranny legitimizes its reign.] And all of recent history shows that the Arabs were master at that. After all it took the Ottoman Turks to control their behavior. Since when have you become a victim? Is this the latest strategy of promoting victimhood that you think will work in the 21st. century.

The only way that the Palestinians and Israel can be at peace is for the Palestinians and Arabs to recognize Israel as a sovereign state. Period.

Respectfully submitted,

#67, I was talking about the nation state as a political, economic and military entity surrounded by laws that protect and maintains the entity, regardless of the people that inhabit it- none of that, none of the artificial cutting up or carving in of boundaries or displacement of indigeneous folk either. People define the land not colonial decree and boundaries. If I had the power, I`d abolish all national boundaries and laws associated with those boundaries. Apparently behram1 doesn`t understand what a bureaucracy is and what a bureaucratized society does to human reason and freedom, so he is getting confused on why I am against that.

hee hee, actually Behram is giving the same treatment to Palestine as assorted Pakistanis and Islamists give to India. After all, don`t a few people say that there was no such thing as India?

Anyways, Masadi, on a more serious note, the very concept of a nationstate is a mere 400 odd years old and can be traced back to the treaty of Westphalia. If you are to take the nation state itself as illegitimate, then how do you aregue that there was a Palestine? After all, by your own definition, all we are discussing here is a stretch if land which had Arab and Jewish native occupants. There was large scale immigration by Jews from other parts of the world, and with the help of the UN and the world community, they set up a nation state of Israel. When, specifically, was the nation state of Palestine ever set up in history?

#64. Here is a classic example of how behram1 is trying in his ``Fox News`` fashion to deceive people. He mentions Egypt getting the Sinai back, which DID not happen until another war, that of 1973, and the Sinai wasn`t completely returned till 1979. Anyway, his tactic of deception here is clear, he wants to deny the Palestinians their existance by claiming that there was no Palestine and no Palestinians and all this is the creation of the surrounding Arab states: classic a-historical Zionist propaganda. I gave the example of the simple Balfour Agreement that talks about Palestine, long before there ever was an Israel on the map, and long before there was a Jordan on the map. Behram1, you say I`m employing mass-deception, yet you give not ONE example. Mass-deception is practiced by your neo-con and Israeli masters when they reach millions via the mass media. How many do I reach, a few here and a few there with well documented facts as against their BS- people aren`t stupid, they can tell how incoherent and off-hand your comments are. Enough said! Presenting the occupiers as victims and the oppressed as non-existant and the deceivers (of the mass media) as ``historical`` and those that speak from standard history books as `mass deceivers`- here ladies and gentlmen we see how tyranny legitimizes its reign.

Re: # 62

Dear malik99:

This was a rhetorical question [ ``So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi?`` ] to masadi`s gyration of thoughts. He has been vacillating in perpetuity on a theory that has been debunked quite successfully.

From the first post he has been utilizing weapons of mass deflection. He was explaining Accounting 101 regarding the War in Iraq, and how the US is loosing etc. Then, we went in how the American elite doing whatever best they do. Then we travelled into nation states theory.

And Oh...Yes, ofcourse, he (like most corrupt intellectuals) had to throw in the Israeli/Palestinians issue.

I am just having fun to see how his lack of truthfulness will be self evident to him.

Respectfully submitted,

Back to the basics 101:

The war of 1967 was between the Israelis and three Arab countries...Eygpt, Jordan, and Syria.

Egypt signed peace agreement with Israel and got Sinai back.
Syria did not sign anything and will not get back the Golan Heights.
Jordan signed peace agreement with Israel, and wants peace, but got entangled with the Palestinians. Whose fault is it?

Going back to basics 101 once again: Who were the participants of that war? Jordan and Israel.

In 1988, Jordan gave up the right on West Bank.
I am not sure when did Eygpt gave up the right on Gaza.

The Arabs, as usual, have introduced yet another variable. Now, the world has to contend with the Palestinians. Or should we wait for yet another variable the Gazains and the West Banker Palestinians?

How would a Palestinan State be defined?

Respectfully submitted,

``The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other``

Huh? So just because you are against nation states we should be as well? All in all, it is the very Palestenians who are a people without a nation state and who would want to be in that position? We are quite happy with our nation states, thank you. You are welcome to give up your own passport if you dislike your nation state so much.

Masadi seems to be some sort of leftist-Islamist combination. Is Islam the new word for a socialist alternative? I thought Islamists were against the left. Now they are against Capitalism as well?

``an apple to apple comparison of european jewry implanted in the heart of middle east would be if survivors of Rawandan genocide were given a territory for self-rule in Central Europe. ``

A valid point, the Israel issue is more about race than religion. Iin which case the Arabs could have retained the moral upper hand by not expelling native Jjews from Yemen, Egypt etc. The fact is that Jews are native to the lands of the middle east and their is historical and religious justification for that fact. So what of the Palestenians were kicked out? My parents were kicked out of West Punjab (the historical home and cradle of Hindu civilization) and we came to India and made futures for ourselves. Let the Palestenians do the same in Jordan or Lebanaon or whatever and do the same.

behram #60 - ``So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi?``

behram sahib, an apple to apple comparison of european jewry implanted in the heart of middle east would be if survivors of Rawandan genocide were given a territory for self-rule in Central Europe.

kulharee # 55 ``do you cry tears over Darfur… OK, let me ask you this: Do you know where Darfur is?``

kulharee sahib, I thought this article was about various alternatives to kill Iraqis. I did not see any mention of Sudan. Did you?

Now instead of snarling and scowling and throwing wise cracks endlessly, why dont you do something useful and pen an article about Darfur. That would be the surest way to find out whether I cry tears over it or not.

But you wont. That would require some thinking. And going by your posts, that would be a long shot.

Re: # 58

Dear masadi:

You assert [no new points in this post of yours,] Of course not. You have still not answered my earlier posts. And you consider yourself an intellectual? You are repackaging your theories constantly.

Between educating me on Accounting 101, and here about Israel`s right to exist, we are now travelling into the nation state theory. I am just having fun in educating myself at your dime (so to speak). So thank you for that.

You assert..[ those who want answers to these deception tactics being used by behram 1,]. Now, now, please be fair and don`t accuse me of your own behavior.

[my purpose here is not to entertain behram 1, in a ``who wants to be a millionaire`` session.] I have always searched for the truth which evidently is foreign to you.


[... Resolution 242 that asks Israel (mentioning it by name) to get the hell out of lands occupied in the war ] without any agreement on peace? Is that ever possible between two warring parties?

Now, please don`t make me read all these posts[http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm] I don`t have time for these posts. Your opinions are good enough for me.

[Your arguments about Kurdistan, Baluchistan etc are redundant because I do not believe in the colonial nation state system.] Have you lost your mind? So you don`t believe in Pakistan? A colonial nation state.

SO what is the UN...you don`t believe in the UN, now?


[ Israel by its occupation legitimizes that system as do you.] What have I occupied? Are you going bonkers?


[ I reject it totally, indigeneous people cannot be justifiably displaced or ruled by outside implants.] So Mohajirs are indigeneous to Karachi? Are you making sense to yourself?

[ The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``] I have seen in most of your posts, that you have someting against bureaucratic form of government. Are you against the rule of law? And that is what bureaucrats do best....


[- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other.] Oh, so if any two countries or people fight, it must be the fault of these neo-colonials. You must be visiting Aljazeera site, too often.

[Behram 1, I do not see any independant thought from you, ] Just get rid of those glasses that was given to you by those liars, those tricksters, and those decievers that are surrounding you and you will notice that the world is not a bastion of conspiracy theorists.

[...the great ``American celebration`` as C. W. Mills called it, which is based on fiction and mythology- fairy tales.] Here you go with one more book to quote.

But, the fact on the ground is very simple.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 57

Asadi Sahib… should the Jews have a right to return to Syria, Iraq, Jordan, even Afghanistan, and what is now Lebanon? Were they kicked out of there or not? I think you are on Hamas payroll. Did you know that the American Elite brokered the agreement between Israel and Egypt to set aside quotas for products produced in collaboration of the two nemesis? Your American Elite employs a huge number of unemployed Araboobs who would otherwise be strapping bombs on their waists. Meanwhile, your leaders give U.S. $ 25K to the family of each suicide bomber. Are you ashamed of being a Muslim?

Asadi Sahib.. only Marx, Max Weber and Durkheim are taught in graduate schools. No one gives a shyt about the theories of your C. Wright Mills. Really. While we are at it, which community school did you attend?

Your concern about the American Elite is commendable, I hope you are as concerned about your Ummah in Sudan for genociding the blacker Muslims, and your Pakis about killing the Shias, Christians and Ahmadis. I wana see a two page essay on that from you.

Just a little observation. You would have made an excellent SS unlisted officer. Staff Sgt. Asadi. Sorry, not an officer, becuse you are too thick even by Nazi standards.

#56, no new points in this post of yours, those who want answers to these deception tactics being used by behram 1, read my earlier posts as most of them were addressed in them. Info on the 1967 war can read it up in the history books, my purpose here is not to entertain behram 1, in a ``who wants to be a millionaire`` session. Resolution 242 that asks Israel (mentioning it by name) to get the hell out of lands occupied in the war can be read in original text at http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1967/scres67.htm

Your arguments about Kurdistan, Baluchistan etc are redundant because I do not believe in the colonial nation state system. Israel by its occupation legitimizes that system as do you. I reject it totally, indigeneous people cannot be justifiably displaced or ruled by outside implants. The nation state system is a farce, a total farce that tries to bureaucratize the age old colonial principle of ``divide and rule``- the U.S. elite, the neo-colonials run away with the global pie and leave these divided up nation states fighting each other over the crumbs, even as they play one against the other. Behram 1, I do not see any independant thought from you, you are merely following the mass mediated propaganda of the US elite- political mythology that those who can`t see below the superficial surface readily accept and rally around- the great ``American celebration`` as C. W. Mills called it, which is based on fiction and mythology- fairy tales.

#55 Kulharee, I hope you`re not using the same lop sided logic to ``re-build``, whatever it is you are trying to rebuild, as you are here. If crimes are being committed in Darfur that doesn`t somehow wash away the crimes committed by the American elite in Iraq.

Benny Morris is a right wing Israeli historian whose work on refugee displacement is considered the standard in the field. Use whatever label you want, Morris is no friend of the Palestinians. The rest of your post is incoherent babbling- Just because you are on the payroll of some American corporation does not mean you have to sell your soul to support them- Think for yourself, be independent, have a damn conscience; sorry for being crude about the obvious.

#54, these new converts to the ``American Way``, a ``way`` that considers money as the ``measure of all things``, often have lost all human sensibilities. To them life matters little as long as it fits in with their ``calculations`` , and these ``calculations`` are usually economic. C. Wright Mills, the American sociologist captured it well in the 1950s when he stated:

``In the expanded world of mechanically vivified communication (i.e the media), the individual becomes the spectator of everything but the human witness of nothing... The cold manner enters their souls and they are made private and blase. In virtually all realms of life, facts now outrun sensibility. Emptied of their human meaning, these facts are readily got used to. In the official man there is no more human shock; in his unofficial follower there is little sense of moral issue...the level of moral sensibility, as part of the public and private life, has sunk out of sight. It is not the number of victims or the degree of cruelty that is distinctive; it is the fact that the acts committed and the acts that nobody protests are split from the consciousness of men in an uncanny even a schizophrenic, manner.
The atrocities of our time are done by men as ``functions`` of a social machinery- men possessed by an abstracted view that hides from them the human beings who are their victims and, as well their own humanity. They are inhuman acts because they are impersonal. They are not sadistic but merely businesslike; they are not aggressive but merely efficient; they are not emotional at all but technically clean-cut...For today if men are acting in the name of ``their nation``, they do not know moral limits but only expedient calculations.`` (C. Wright Mills, Causes of World War III 1958:88-89)

Everytime I hear commentary on the US media, or hear the thugs in Washington speak, I collect empirical evidence in support of the above statement made by Mills in the 1950s. Capitalism has torn the soul out of humanity, and left it in a miserable state, alienated soulless and empty, humanity is capable of much better; much better than the nonsense imposed upon them by the American elite; here are some further observations by Mills (http://robots.asadi.org)

Re: # 53

Dear Masadi:

You have not answered: In 1967, Israel fought the war with which country?
Resolution 242, was between what two countries?

I am really sorry for your closed mindedness.

You have not answered on the theory that if Palestinians being indigeneous people must decide on their own country, then should you not make the same arguments for Kurds?
For Baluchis? For Pathans? For Sindhi