SAARC Syndrome: Asia's Burden

Re: # 151
Calling names reflects upon the poverty of mind. Good arguments can win hearts. Don`t believe even if your gods say that Indian army is good enough to keep millions of people under Indian yoke. Americans have not been able to take care of real terrorists in Iraq despite being many times better equipped then Indian soldiers.
Imagine, God forbid, if similar insurgency breaks out in Kashmir will Indian Army be able to handle the situation. Not at all. Only the human cost will increase and humanity will die. Pl come to senses and shake off the newly gained thrill of ``India Shining`` and look at the sproblem in true perspective.
With nuclear arsenal both India and Pakistan can never win each other, however, by acting rightly India can win the hearts of billions of people on the globe. Otherwise, India will continue to bleed its resources of maintain its hold on Kashkmir with tenacity only fools can appreciate.

#149 by syedjaved on December 13, 2005 2:16am PT


A nation state has no right to abuse human beings in the name of territorial integrity that that too for so long.


Here`s the deal...you pakis only stopped the killing of the bangladeshis when India forced your army to surrender..

why don`t you get your army to force India to surrender and then the killings of the terrorists will stop...

Re: # 147
You are living in your imagined world where you have conceived such things about Pakistan and its people. All of your geralizations are subjective and irrelevant. Further acts of terrorism committed by a very acute minority (a couple of thousands) cannot be put on a nation of 150 million. In my understanding your all observations as well as your perception need correction. Pl understand Kashmir problem in correct perspective. Pakistan bashing will not do you any good.

Re: # 145
A nation state has no right to abuse human beings in the name of territorial integrity that that too for so long.

Re: # 143
``100K dead in 15 years...Population of Kashmir = 6 million?(or is it 13 million)...

do the math..``
You are absolutely wrong in your counting. Multiply your figure with 100 and you will get the real figures. Humanitarian abuses are extremely unsettling for any sensitive human being. Pl wake up shoulder your responsibilities as human being.

Re:syedjaved#142

You wrote,``But I don`t think riches can overtake ideology. ``

With all due respect, what ideology are you talking about? Two Nation Theory? You must be kidding. That theory has been dead for the past 30 years. Pakistan has shown how it treats muslims (forget about non-muslims). You people butchered millions of Bengali muslims in 1971 in a holocaust that is second only to Nazi Germany`s actions in WW2. You left behind lakhs of Bihari muslims stranded in refugee camps, people who are your own citizens, who follow your religion and who strongly support Pakistan. They are in need of your humanitarian gestures. Yet we dont hear even a word from anybody in Pakistan about these people.

Then in Pakistan`s borders, we see the miserable treatment given to Baloch who are muslims and who would love to secede from Pakistan. You used your own air force and military strength to hold on to these people. Then you made Ahmedis who were muslims into non-muslims. Today if they say `Salam Aleikum`, they can go to jail. Next you massacared Mohajirs in Karachi in the 1990s. Again these are muslim people who were the strongest supporters of Pakistan even before 1947. Now you have started killing Shias by calling them infidels. Every few weeks you hear of sectrian massacares, suicide bombings in mosques, assasination of Shia doctors. In Pakistan, the bastion of Islam, people are scared of praying in mosques in fear of bombs exploding from the opposing sects. Considering foreign relations, Pakistan is despised in Afghanistan and Iran. The Central Asian countries do not want anything to do with Pakistan.

Mr. Syed, no matter which way you look, Pakistan has made a laughing stock of Islam. You wear your religion on your sleeves and shout from the rooftops but your actions go against every teaching of the religion. Pakistanis have given a bad name to Islam throughout the world. With this kind of a disasterous track record, you want to get more territory and more people to join a failed country? That too on the basis of Islam, when you cannot even manage to keep a 97% muslim country to exist in peace and without religious strife? So what nonsense ideology are you talking about? Now if you say economics, then you know you can never compete with India. But even on Islamic brotherhood, Pakistan is a HUGE failure.

re:#134 by arjun_m
I did not suggest US will lean on India. It is in India`s own interest to satisfactorily resolve this problem (to the satisfaction of India and Kashmiris; i don`t care what Pakis think) and move on. I was suggesting that India is more vulnerable (economically) today than during the Cold war days (when it had the backing of Soviet Union) and cannot pretend as if the problem will solve by itself and it has just to hang on to the status quo.
Sridhar

re:#139 by syedjaved
In the part of the world u live in, you are probably never told the whole story. All u have learnt so far is that Kashmir should have gone to Pakistan but somehow the wily hindus prevented that from happening. Pakis like you, having been deprived of the most coveted possession, now come to Chowk and various other forums shedding crocodile tears about human rights violation in Kashmir.
My contention is simple. A nation state has every right to defend its territorial integrity. Now, do not jump up and down and scream out saying Kashmir does not belong to India. Legally it does. And, up until the early 80s, Kashmiris voted and elected their own state govt and a CM. Things got screwed up after this, much due to Indian political stupidity when voting rights were denied to average Kashmiris or elections were rigged. Result was disenchantment resulting in armed revolt by some quarters.
Indian democracy has had many such occasions. Khalistani movement (which was an armed revolt also) and the Dravidian movement before that (which was not violent) easily come to mind. Indian democracy ensured these were succesfully dealt with.
There is no reason to believe the same will not happen to Kashmir. It is, in fact, already happening. Kashmiris have already realized the futility of an armed revolt when the alternative (being at the mercy of a dictatorial regime of Paksitan) is worse than a nightmare. Kashmiris now talk about an honorable settlement with substantial autonomy sans independence.
This is likely to happen after Pak has been stalemated and its jehadi apparatus completely destroyed.
Sridhar

re:the irrelevance of SAARC
SAARC is going into irrelevance can be gauged from the fact that India is looking eastword into ASEAN and is now a member of the EAS to be held in Kaula Lumpur. There is nothing much for India in SAARC where Pakistan has made all economic progress contingent on Kashmir.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-12/12/content_502588.htm
(Step closer to a unified Asia
Eric Teo Chu CheowChina Daily Updated: 2005-12-12 05:24

The inaugural East Asia Summit (EAS) will be held in Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday, under Malaysian chairmanship, at the same time as the ASEAN and ``ASEAN+3`` summits.

It is probably accurate to say that thanks to Europe, Asians were brought together within ``ASEAN+3,`` as the latter was initially formed as a loose co-ordinating grouping within Asia-Europe Meeting or ASEM, officially launched in March 1996. The so-called Asian caucus then had seven ASEAN countries (the ``original five,`` Brunei and Viet Nam), China, Japan and the ROK.

``ASEAN+3`` then became formalized at the 1999 summit and functional co-operation was effectively extended beyond the annual summits and meetings of foreign, economic and trade ministers from the participating countries (now numbering 13) to cover health, education and social affairs over the past six years.

But two other important factors have influenced the final choice of participants in the EAS in Kuala Lumpur, which should number 16 when launched.

First, the United States will not be included in this summit, unlike the recently-concluded APEC meeting in Busan, and hence there is a need to cater for its non-participation.

Second, the rapid rise of India in the past few years has made it necessary for ASEAN to bring the country into the mainstream of Asian regional integration in some form.

Bearing in mind these two trends, ASEAN foreign ministers in a retreat in Cebu, the Philippines in May, agreed on three criteria for membership of the new EAS club.

First, nations must be dialogue partners of ASEAN; second, there must be substantial economic links with the region, and lastly, they must sign the ASEAN Treaty of Amity and Co-operation (TAC), before being admitted to the EAS.

China, Japan and the ROK automatically qualify; India qualified too, when it signed the TAC last December. But it was only after much careful consideration and negotiation that Australia and New Zealand agreed to sign the TAC. The last two countries were also included in the EAS, probably as a strategic assurance to the United States, namely that the EAS would not in any way go against the fundamental interests of Washington within the region, as the Americans had initially feared.

The agenda for the EAS appears to be still under consideration, as the grouping should perhaps be more attuned towards socio-economic matters, given the present difficulties in bridging serious and fundamental political contentions.

More crucially, there is now a lively debate on whether the future agenda of the EAS and its nascent organization would be focused exclusively on economics and social affairs alone or if it should also embrace security anti-terrorism co-ordination and other aspects of comprehensive security.

The recent Fourth High-Level Conference on Asian Economic Integration, held in New Delhi, raised this eventuality without a conclusive outcome.

Many observers had forecast the EAS would envision a sort of pan-Asian Free Trade Area (FTA), to begin to build towards an Asian Economic Community, whilst others have cited the possibility of building first an Asian Energy Community, along the lines of the European Coal and Steel Community (amongst its initial six members) in the 1950s.

Energy co-operation would certainly be high on the agenda, as Asian countries, ranging from China and Japan to Indonesia and the Philippines, battle the current oil price hike and the ensuing inflationary spiral that may slow down Asian economies.

But more fundamentally, there is also the live matter of the future relationship between ``ASEAN+3`` and the EAS, as the former already has intensified co-operation and connections in almost every field, which the three new members could tag on to. Or should the EAS be considered an ``ASEAN+3+3`` grouping, which India would not feel comfortable with, as it would then be relegated to the third circle?

In fact, the future relationship between the EAS (either as an ``ASEAN+3+3`` or ``ASEAN+6``) and the current ``ASEAN+3`` would probably be the most contentious matter to be effectively settled in Kuala Lumpur.

The debate in Kuala Lumpur could also focus on the nature of the future organization, which should eventually emanate from the EAS, notably if it should expand to include such aspiring members as Russia, Mongolia, Pakistan and others.

Besides the crucial matter of the future agenda, doubts have been raised about whether a new Asian organization or community could be officially launched. Initial hopes and aspirations of a nascent Asian Economic Community may be premature in Kuala Lumpur, and may have to be saved for the next summit, reportedly scheduled to be held in Singapore in two years` time.

The author is a council member of the Singapore Institute for International Affairs)
This is the direction Asia is moving, sans SAARC.
Sridhar

#142 by syedjaved on December 12, 2005 3:06am PT


How long can India scuttle the voice of innocent Kashmiries blatently killed by Indian forces in Kashmir.


100K dead in 15 years...Population of Kashmir = 6 million?(or is it 13 million)...

do the math..


My obsession for Kashmir is because I am human and I care for humanity.


So you weren`t human when the pakistani army butchered a bunch of bangladeshis in 71 and no one was prosecuted for it....what were you then?

Re: # 141

This is a typical Indian mind speaking not worth reply. What is new that you have spoken about? Why all the fuss about peace talks? How long can India scuttle the voice of innocent Kashmiries blatently killed by Indian forces in Kashmir. Do you think all those who are being killed are terrorists. Cetain terrorist for India in Kashmir may be the HERO of Kashmiries.
Money, Money, Money, Progress, India shining, riches passisng down to poor people. What dream are you talking about. India is too big and is reeling under its own burden. I wish India to progress. But I don`t think riches can overtake ideology. Keep trying and not listen to the voice ot wisdom. We will see how long can you hold on to Kashmir.
My obsession for Kashmir is because I am human and I care for humanity. If moneyed class/interest in India is not listenisng today they will acknowledge that tomorrow. Humanity will succeed and come out victorious.

Re:syedjaved#140

Why are you getting so worked up about Kashmir? Opinion polls have shown that Kashmiris do not want to join Pakistan any more. They may not want to be in India but they do not want to go to Pakistan either. In fact, they prefer independence. So as a Pakistani you need to forget about your dreams of Kashmir joining you, period. The Kashmiris no longer want to do so, understand?

The comparison of Kashmir with Palestine is absolutely ridiculous. India has allowed free and fair elections in Kashmir and Kashmiris have their own government. Even so called Azad Kashmir does not have this in Pakistan. India does not allow people from other parts of India to buy Kashmiri land, so Kashmiris control their own land, unlike Palestinians. Kashmiris have equal rights like any other Indian so there is no discrimination, unlike Palestine. India has not done anything to harm Kashmiris on an institutional basis. Yes, there is a guerilla war going on between separatists/jihadis and the army, which is always messy. If the guerilla war stops, Indian army will withdraw as well. After all, before 1989, there was no huge army presence there.

The issue is whether Kashmiris want to be separate or remain part of India. That issue will get resolved over time. In 1989 when the insurgency started, Indian economy was in tatters. The Kashmiris didnt have much to lose by leaving India. Now the Indian economy is booming and Kashmiris are definitely affected by it positively. So the incentive to separate is going to diminish over time as Kashmiris reap the rewards of a good economy. Also, Indian society is changing and becoming even more integrated across the board as time progresses. Religion is going to fade into the background as a big issue as people are getting united based on Indian nationalism. Kashmiris cannot resist that pressure forever. So it is simply a matter of winning the Kashmiris over, not based on rhetoric but making it part of their self-interest. Of course, India may give larger autonomy and open borders with Pakistan as a sop, but it will not let go of Kashmir.

Re: # 138-by arjun_m on December 10, 2005 8:06am PT
Dreams are always impossible untill they are realised. People like you cannot hold futurists back by clinging to their feet. Pl come to sense. Kashmir always was humanitarian issue and will remain so whether the so called Jehadi fight for Kashmir or not. You sound like a Hindu Jehadi to me. What difference does it make what sect or religion you follow if your acts of omissions or comissions are harmful to fellow humanbeings. Do you have the answer why there is the largest concentration of army on earth in Kashmir if Kashmiries like you? Why there is random killing of people five to ten on the average everyday? Kashmir is as big problem as Palestinine where equal number of people are being killed however as Palestinian have support of Arab Media, the events in Palestine are flashed out to the whole world, whereas what is happening in Kashmir at the hands of Indian forces, media being not there, is blacked out. Occasionally news creep into Pakistan media of the atrocities of Indian army, otherwise everything goes unnoticed.
From where did you get the news that part of Kashmir was given to China? We never had any boundry disputes with China which is a great country ruled by wise people. We had understanding of border demarcation with China and that should be done with every bordering country. Again this should be biased media reports feuling your ... wits.
Dear, I am not here to score honours for me. I want to bring the truth out and I strongly feel that this is high time India looked at the Kashmir dispute seriously. Yes India is a big country and can wave off or sweep under carpet such issues for forseeable time, however, pl be reminded that no issue by whatever power can be put off for ever.
India will solve the problem of Kashmir, history will witness this, either gracefully in near future or will be brought down to its knees by whatever forces in distant future to acknowledge the inalienable right of Kashmiries. regds.

Re: # 138
Dreams are always impossible untill they are realied. People like you cannot hold futurists back by clinging to their feet. Pl come to sense. Kashmir always was humanitarian issue and will remain so whether the so called Jehadi fight for Kashmir or not. You sound like a Hindu Jehadi to me. What difference does it make what sect or religion you follow if your acts of omissions or comissions are harmful to fellow humanbeings. Do you have the answer why there is the largest concentration of army on earth in Kashmir if Kashmiries like you? Why there is random killing of people five to ten on the average everyday? Kashmir is as big problem as Palestinine where equal number of people are being killed however as Palestinian have support of Arab Media, the events in Palestine are flashed out to the whole world, whereas what is happening in Kashmir at the hands of Indian forces, media being not there, is blacked out. Occasionally news creep into Pakistan media of the atrocities of Indian army, otherwise everything goes unnoticed.
From where did you get the news that part of Kashmir was given to China? We never had any boundry disputes with China which is a great country ruled by wise people. We had understanding of border demarcation with China and that should be done with every bordering country. Again this should be biased media reports feuling your ... wits.
Dear, I am not here to score honours for me. I want to bring the truth out and I strongly feel that this is high time India looked at the Kashmir dispute seriously. Yes India is a big country and can wave off or sweep under carpet such issues for forseeable time, however, pl be reminded that no issue by whatever power can be put off for ever.
India will solve the problem of Kashmir, history will witness this, either gracefully in near future or will be brought down to its knees by whatever forces in distant future to acknowledge the inalienable right of Kashmiries. regds.

#135 by syedjaved on December 10, 2005 2:39am PT


Do I sound like a Jehadi.


You sound like a jihadi sounds when he`s failed to achieve his ``Kashmir banega Pakistan`` wet dreams through jihad...

You`d be taken more seriously if your talk about the humanitarian considerations hadn`t been preceded by failed wars and failed Islamic jihad by your country..


First you were all jihaaaad and ``1 muslim = 10 hindus`` and ``brave warriors of Islam will kick the hindu bania and liberate Kashmir``....when that failed, and only because that failed, you`re talking about humanitarian considerations...


many Pakistanis believer ``Kashmir Bani Gha Pakistan``. I also tend to agree with them.


The tendency of Pakistanis to believe in flying pigs has no bearing on the ability of the oinkers to grow wings and take to the sky...

P.S.: What about the part of Azad Kashmir that you gave away to the chinese?

Re: # 129
Humanitarian issues should have greater indulgence of thinking people.

Re: # 130
Dear many Pakistanis believer ``Kashmir Bani Gha Pakistan``. I also tend to agree with them. However, I am open to all solutions which will appease Kashmiries themselves.

Re: # 131
Dear Mittar, Pl don`t get things wrong. Truth should not be mixed with falshood. What will follow the solution of Kashmir is just a theory. We need to solve the problem at hand: humanitarian problem. By solving it we will earn blessing of God and He will save us from other troubles. Do I sound like a Jehadi. When the problem of terrorism will arise Pakistan will face it bravely. We have already done so recently. India should the same with extremist outfits among them. I appreciate your concern for the future of Pakistan. However, believer me there are many things we may expect simply don`t happen. Further imagined dangers are more deadly then the real ones we are always able to face. (Macbeth: Shakespeare). regds

#133 by rsridhar on December 8, 2005 6:38pm PT


USA is keen to see resolution to Kashmir issue.


So you think there`s even the remotest possibility that the US will lean on India in any way shape or form to hand over Kashmir to the pakis?

A bit of reality....There`s a ZERO chance of that happening..

OTOH, the US has been pressuring Pakiland to crack down on what it sees as it`s only weapon in the war in Kashmir..the jihadis...why else do you think the Jaish-e-Mohammad, Lashkar etc are on the state department terrorism list?

re:#126 by Ranger
You are wrong in thinking that India can defy international opinion. May be during the Cold War when Soviet Union was solidly behind India. Today, India`s economy is very dependent on USA. USA is keen to see resolution to Kashmir issue. It may not like the status quo to continue if that means more friction with Pakistan.
Sridhar

So remind me again..what does India lose by not trading with Pakiland...or dealing with SAARC..


India booms: $10 billion in 11 weeks!

BS Economy Bureau in New Delhi | December 08, 2005 10:30 IST

In the last 11 weeks, international information technology majors and non-resident Indians have announced investment plans of around $10 billion in the country.

In the last seven weeks, global players including Cisco, Intel, AMD and Microsoft have committed to investing $6.85 billion in India over the next three to five years. These investments span the entire gamut of IT services -- software, microprocessors and networking equipment.

Microsoft Corporation today announced its decision to invest $1.7 billion in India over the next four years. Earlier this week, Intel Corporation, the world`s largest chip-maker, announced an investment package of $1.05 billion over the next five years.

Javed Saheb#125:

Since you did not disagree with the rest of my post 100, I take it as ``khamoshi neem raza-mandi``.

India may be stronger and have a better image abroad if it resolves the Kashmir problem -btw, that image has never been better in its 58 years of independence despite Kashmir problem- but it will be an unmitigated disaster for Pakistan. The statement that India has gotten nothing but grief out of Kashmir is even truer for Pakistan.

But for Kashmir, any two-bit man in Khaki would not have been able to climb a few monkeys over the walls of your Prime Minister`s house and arrest him. But for Kashmir, Pakistan would be a democracy. But for Kashmir, you would not have been dismembered. But for Kashmir, Jihad would not have taken firm roots in Pakistan and most terrorists would not have traced their militancy to Madrassas in Pakistan. And if the Jihadis` struggle is successful in Kashmir, they would not stop there but it would be just a Bismillah for them. The emboldened jihadis` next target would almost certainly be Islamabad to Talbanise Pakistan. It would also boost the morale of Islamists fighting for secession from Chechnya to Phillipines and making life less secure for the rest of us.

Regards.

Syed Javed,

If you are really serious about the Kashmiris` rights, answer these questions, and then we can debate:

1. Why is every ``Azad`` Kashmiri candidate standing in the local elections in AJK required to sign an undertaking whole-hearted support to J&K`s accession to Pakistan. Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was not allowed to contest because he refused to sign this undertaking.

2. How come no Paki shed tears when Pakistan gifted away a part of Kashmir to China?

#125 by syedjaved on December 8, 2005 0:48am PT


I think India will win the sympathies, love and respect of the whole world


Actually it`s Pakistan that has an image problem all over the world..It`s seen as a breeding ground for terrorists..It`s associated with terrorism like Colombia is associated with drugs...which is why your government is hiring PR agencies to place ads in the New York Times...

Maybe if you stopped indoctrinating, training, arming and funding Islamic terrorists, you`d have a better reputation in the world and a paki passport wouldn`t be an automatic flag when you arrive at western airports...


Unless it is done India will never be peace with itself and with its neigbours.


That`s a new variation on the ``Hand over Kashmir on a platter and we promise to be your friends`` line....

#125 by syedjaved

[I think India will win the sympathies, love and respect of the whole world by agreeing to hold plebiscite in Kashmir giving this right to Kahsmiries to decides about their future themselves.]

Thank you very much, but you can keep the ``sympathies, love, and respect of the whole world``. It is you Pakis who need it badly, because you are the ones singled out for a strip search everytime you land at a western airport. Indians are doing just fine.

[Unless it is done India will never be peace with itself and with its neigbours. I pray to avoide such eventuality.]

India has emerged as one of the world`s fastest growing economies through strife and unrest. It is Pakistan you should be worried about, because no one takes you guys seriously anymore.

I find it strange that Pakis obssess more over the right to self-determination of Kashmiris than their own country, whose citizens have no democratic rights, other than the crumbs (a government pre-elected by Mushy) thrown at them?

By the way , by `rest of the world` , Syed Javed is alluding to poor little Pakistan. Apart from Pakistan no other country has any interest in Kashmir. Indians in general have great contempt for Pakistan. If you think to make Pakis happy we are gonna give up even an inch of Kashmir you are sadly deluded. You are a fool if you think you will get something that you did not get after fighting 3-4 wars by begging / by threatening/ or on the negotiating table.

#125 ,



India has no interest in what the rest of the world thinks. Rest of the world does not vote in an Indian election. All that matters is what the people of India think. And people of India want Kashmir.

If Kashmiris do not want to stay with India , they are free to leave. Turn to the west and keep marching. The land stays with us. As simple as that.

Re: # 100
I think India will win the sympathies, love and respect of the whole world by agreeing to hold plebiscite in Kashmir giving this right to Kahsmiries to decides about their future themselves. Unless it is done India will never be peace with itself and with its neigbours. I pray to avoide such eventuality. regds

Re: # 55

Pl read my reply 97 things might become clear to you.

Re: # 9

Great! when fools cannot answer they stoop down to name calling.

Re: # 103
I cannot help appreciating this beautiful couplet for whatever purpose it has been posted.

re: post 120
I was perhaps wrong in saying Taiwan has more GDP growth than India but it certainly is more globalised and a freer market than India is. Hence, it is reaping a richer harvest.
Sridhar

re:#116 by ahmedmadani
Ahmad Madani Sahib,
Hope u are keeping a good health.
The world is going global. The 4 Cs are pushing this. Communication, Capital, Corporations and Consumers (not my own; i learnt it from a website!).
India has a large consumer base, cheap, skilled workers. Communication has bridged to a level these workers can now sit in offices in Bangalore, Gurgaon, Delhi or Madras and do the stuff that was once done in Silicon valley or Dallas. MNCs are coming to India because they find it profitable. It is that simple.
If Pakistan can come out of its jehadi mindset, project itself as a progressive society (like Turkey) and join this global agenda, it too will reap the fruit of globalisation. Otherwise there is a good chance it will be left behind.
Pakistan should open up to trade with India and join hands with India at all levels. There is no need to stupidly try to project Pak as an equal rival at every level. People who know the realities are not impressed. Pak keeps shifting the debate away from trade, free market, cooperation to Kashmir. This is not good for Pak.
India too is an upstart in this area of freemarket and globalisation. Taiwan has more GDP growth than India today because it has understood how trade and globalisation works better than India`s babus have.
Sridhar

re:#115 by Ranger
Gujjubania,
India`s GDP might have grown in the last several years but your brain has not.
You seem to suggest in your post to HP that Indian Army is an occupation army in Kashmir. I am sure he and others who have never doubted this would be happy to learn this from u.
I have a different take on this.
Indian Army`s presence in Kashmir is warranted only as long as there are militants coming across the border. Militancy within the state has to be tackled at various levels (economic, political etc) and presence of a large army is not needed. It is time IA phased out of Kashmir slowly.
Sridhar

re:#112 by HP
In India, democracy is not perfect. It is not even well managed and there is a lot of muscle power, money power in use, especially in states of Bihar, UP (and in the so called BIMARU) states. Education level of people are low, so they keep electing scums, criminals.
And, u yourself have listed insurgencies in some states, all of which point to disenchantment with the present state of affairs.
Does that mean democracy has failed? Heck, no.
It only means democracy as it exists in India needs to be futher strengthened.
Bihar just demonstrated that. It rejected Laloo Yadav`s casteist party and selected a party that is committed to (at least in its election manifesto) economic development.
The power of democracy lies in consensus of the people. The change is not swift. It is a slow, painful process, almost invisible. The fruits of change are visible only in decades. India of 2005 is vastly different from India of the 50s or 60s. It is a much more democratic socielty with a free press, cable TV networks and 24 hour newschannels that are not afraid to take on the high and mighty and a booming middle class that is setting the tone for discourse.

Let us turn to somebody who is more informed (about economic issues) and less biased that you are. This is what Shahik Javed Burki had to say:
(http://www.dawn.com/2005/12/06/op.htm)
(One example should suffice the way the Indians have brought different segments of the society into the mainstream of politics. The Dalits were once called the ‘untouchables’ by the higher class Indians. The British, by identifying them in the schedules to the laws they devised to govern India, gave them some protection against social and cultural discrimination. They thus came to be called the Scheduled Castes. Mahatma Gandhi found that term offensive. Believing that by simply changing the way people are identified their position can be improved, he began to call them Harijans, the children of God. Now the Dalits are a powerful force in the Indian political system. They govern several Indian states.

The Indian system, therefore, has proved to be remarkably accommodating of diversity and new developments. It is inclusionary. In Pakistan, on the other hand, the opposite is true. Society uses many devices to narrow the focus of governance rather than expand it. For nearly two decades, the people who ruled the country would not hold a population census since that would have signalled a move in the political centre of gravity from the rural to the urban areas. The landed aristocracy was not prepared to surrender political power to towns and cities.

Similarly, the religious establishment has been singularly exclusionary by forcing those in power to declare communities who profess to be Muslim to be non-Muslim minorities since they are not followers of their interpretation of Islam. The political system was not allowed to develop out of discourse; those who wished to bring about change looked to the barrel of the gun to impose it. This meant constant violation of the system.

The only time the Indian constitution was violated was by Mrs Indira Gandhi who attempted to sideline it by assuming emergency powers in the early 1970s. “The proposal to dilute democracy came from no less a statesman than Indira Gandhi, the prime minister of India” writes Sen in the aforementioned book. “The firmness with which one of the poorest electorates in the world rejected the proposed move to authoritarianism had a salutary effect in discouraging other temptations in that direction. After being voted out of office, Indira Gandhi changed tack, strongly reasserted her earlier commitment to democracy, and regained the prime ministership in the general elections of 1980.”).
Burki is talking about 2 things here. One is the slow upliftment of the dalits through a political process that is almost invisible to most of us. Dalits are still gut wretchingly poor but the system that is in place in India today has allowed them to slowly integrate with the society (that was prevented in the past in a casteist India) and even fight out against oppression. A lot of voices of protest emanating from Dalits is in fact a good thing. It shows they are now finidng a voice where they had none in the past.
The other thing Burki talks about is how Indian electorates chastised Mrs Gandhi after she violated the constitution in the 70s. I remember she lost to a political buffoon by name of Raj Narayan. She never forgot that humiliation and never ever tampered with the constitution again.
Democracy is a slow process but the only way in India to govern a diverse group if cultures and subcultures.
With a good system in place, India is well geared to take care of newer challenges, like the one you mentioned.
If i were u, i would worry about the military dictatorship of Pakistan that has cornered all power, filled the civilian posts with military or ex-military elite and has not allowed any political party to come to power. This is a recipe for disaster waiting to happen.
Sridhar

ahmedmadani....you got brain tumor ? My best wishes for your rapid recovery.

Re: # 106

Mr. Arjun you have developed special ability to look at good news from India and magnify and bad news from IRP .
This big companies 2 billion dollars is nothing much its just changes in their pockets. You know USA govt has committed to give 3 billion( over five years) dollars as friend of people who are front and hunting terrorist. That comed to 600 million dolars/ year. India is 6 times bigger in number. So 6x 0.6 million=3.6 B/year. So we have been getting more dollars than India. So do not give figures. When bill gets home he will forget about it. Big people go to poor countries like in India, when they see so many ppor people they feel they should help poor people. But that just slogan , a show.

Also this help is not real as they will give 2 billion and take out profit at 10 billion out. They just exploit poor Indians and fools get happy as they have little job and they become happy. India is good country and It will be always developing country. I have heard only rich people are in IT business in India and poor people and not allowed to get computer education. Sorry state. pOOR iNDIAN IS HAPPY AS HE GOT LITTLE JOB TO TYPE ON keyboard and carrying on shoulder fat Bill gates and many other rich people. Sorry indians who have no food and will go to moves an and feel proud of their poverty and dirt poor and still arrogent as if they are rich. Bill gate is exploiting India and Indian happy. Big fund made of Indian shares is more controlled by bill gates and his wife foundation, some fund IFF or something like that it is close end. So bill puts little money and over 1 biion dollers of NRI is controlled by Mr. Gates. That fund made over 100% two years back. It meeans poor indians work and pull human carriages and bill gate foundation lots of money. What is meant by closed fund ? controlled by Bill gates is it not. Intel and all others will be killed soon by chinese computer companies as they can produce all at much less money. Soon china is going to take over IT and all indians in USA will be without job and I feel sorry for that. Still you talk of IRP as ``Paki``. So stop hate wright or owner will stop you permanantly. Whenever in this nice morning I drink my Keniyan tea ( No cheat cheap indian smuggled tea- neverand never Indian tea here consumed) but when I read your comments It just silly.
I wish you good luck though yu never wish good luck to your ``Paki`` friends. Sorry poor Arjun.

HP mamu....all that mao-ist stuff and Kashmir is nothing. India has tackled a much more difficult Punjab-Khalistan issue. If it makes you happy keep chanting `Kashmir` , `Kashmir`.....makes no difference. Kashmir problem began in 1989. Since then India`s population has grown from 800 million to 1.1 billion. Per capita incomes have quadrupled. Literacy has almost doubled. Poverty has been halved. Number of soldiers killed over the last 16 years in Kashmir is 2000. Not much for a country of India`s size. Indeed US has lost more in 2 years in Iraq than India has in 16 years in Kashmir.

Its funny if you think `India is barely holding on to Kashmir`. India is very easily holdong on to Kashmir. We have 1 soldier for every 5 Kashmiri muslims - male , female and children. If the issue ever reaches a breaking point , all our boys need to do is shootl 5 Kashmiris each. Easy dont ya think ? And trust me , we are very fanatical about somethings like holding on to territory - will do whatever it takes. We can be utterly shameless sometimes. ;)

Why do we have 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir ? For one 700,000 is no big deal for a country for 1.1 billion which manitains a constant military of over 2 million and an equally large paramilitary.(A very useful source of employment for the people.)

Second , there is a constant strength maintained of 2000 terrorists from Pakistan (kill one , two more arrive from Rawalpindi)..and these guys are spread out through out the valley and mingle with the local population. So traditional military strategy demands that when the enemy is not in one spot but mixed with the given population , then to minismise risks , one must have a sufficiently large military in a decent enough ratio to the population.

If all the 2000 terrorists get together in a single spot and attack as one , we will need no more than 10 soldiers to finish them off. To handle the artillery and stuff.

That is why US is suffering in Iraq. Although there are no more than 3000 insurgents , they are spread through out the country and only 150,000 US troops to manage them.

But all this should be obvious to a moderately intelligent cabbie like yourself. Why do you act so dumb ?

As far as this mao-ist problem is concerned - India is tackling this by employing people from the same areas as the mao-ists into its paramilitaries. Its no big deal to be honest. Its pretty much at a preliminary stage. Last time and the only time it became full blown and mao-ists actually took control of a territory was way back decades ago in a district called Naxalbari. Then the army was called in the all the maoists/marxists were finished off , killed - in a day or two.Shit happens in the badlands of India - Bihar etc.. Let the people who live there handle it. I have never been there , have no reason to go there. As long as B`lore is completely under control , I`m happy.

#112 by HP on December 7, 2005 2:47pm PT


India barely have control over Kashmir


The abandoned bodies of pakis soldiers on the mountains of Kargil suggest otherwise..

Kashmir banega Pakistan..(add the thing pakis say for allah-willing)...

Hydrophobia Skunk wants to shadow box with arguments I never made so he has to forcibly ascribe them to me.

The interesting part is that even though Typhoid Mary and India would blame Pakistan and ISI for the problems in MP,AP, Bihar etc., they still don’t have solution to deal with either Pakistan or the Maoist insurgency in the Red corridor.

That shows the bankruptcy of the political thoughts in the Indian government and the failure of the Indian democracy in every area.

The problem is that by taking a sequence of irrational decisions starting from the nuke test in 1998, the Indian politicians have even cut the Indian army’s hands to deal with Pakistan in any way. Thus the quandary they are in now. India barely have control over Kashmir and now another large part of India is gearing to fall to the reds in the red corridor. In the meantime, Indian army just keeps killing Indians.

What a Hindu foresight.

How do you define losers?

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006046&channel=civic%20center

“In Bihar, Andhra Pradesh and even in Karnataka, Maoists are steadily thriving. Their influence among the lowly and the dispossessed is growing by the day. In Bihar, out of 38 districts, over twelve are now thoroughly Maoist-infested.
According to an intelligence Report supplied to the Home Ministry, after a long fratricidal war, the CPI (Maoists), the Peoples War Group (PWG) and the Maoist Communist Centre (MCC) merged in 2004 to establish what they called a ``Red Corridor``. The idea, apparently, is to establish a ``liberated zone`` stretching from the ``Siliguri corridor” of West Bengal to Andhra Pradesh and consisting of districts in Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh.”

This insurgency which clearly is spread over more area and population than Kashmir speaks volumes about the success of the Indian democracy and “Hindu catching up to it”. It is just a matter of time before it will all be blamed on Pakistan and ISI.

Basically Pakistan has become a scapegoat for problems in India. It is easy to blame Pakistan then to figure out how to resolve these issues.

If the talk of the “Red Corridor” is correct than we are talking about another country within India that would be larger than Pakistan in area and population both. Looking at the “Red corridor” problem, Kashmir issue is more like a mustard seed.

What Typhoid Mary has to say about this…the ISI is leading the Moaists, PWG and the MCC…. Go figure… typical Hindu mentality….

#107 any new websites discovered recently? i will warn you against visiting the naxalite ones..FBI keeps tabs. BTW there is also a huge problem in Gadchiroli district near Nagpur

for your enjoyment ;-)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jun/20naxal.htm

arjun_m #108
Hindus must not have any concept of land, Muslims can kill all challengers for gaining control of Muslim land which is anything where the Muslims exceed the nonMuslims by one. India preserves the demography of J&K, Pakistan can settle humongous numbers of nonKashmiris in PoK- different strokes for different folks. The extent to which Indian intelligensia has bought into this double standard is amazing. HydroPhobia skunk is really worried that Indians are catching on to it.

#107 by HP on December 7, 2005 12:33pm PT

You forgot to add :``Kashmir banega Pakistan``...

Typhoid Mary’s post #105 is an example of what people call “hindu mentality”. You object to it, call it in bad taste of may even racist but posts like one we see here show what is really meant by Hindu mentality. The crux of the whole mentality is that “Hindus are always right” and we (hindu) can blame any one for our own follies.

The insurgencies in the Northeast are going on since the time immemorial or at least before Bangladesh even came into existence. Before Bangladesh, it was blamed on China and now Bangladesh and ISI agents in Bangladesh are responsible for it. This shows the pathetic mentality that is a huge reason for India’s problems all over India. Why India fails to resolve internal Indian issues? The answer is the mentality that is depicted here by Typhoid Mary.

It is not only the Northeast, AP had problems since 1950s. Kashmir is unresolved problem since 1947. People like Typhoid Mary would blame everyone for the problems but their own government. Have Indians ever asked their own governments why they have failed to resolve problems in NE, South and Kashmir? It is not they never had the opportunity. They had plenty of time to do that and they never bothered because it is easy to blame others for the problems.

Now it is another stupid thing to assume that others will not take advantage of the problems. Pakistan has a legitimate reason to interfere in Kashmir but what happened in Bangladesh? There was probably not going to be a Bangladesh w/o Indian help but who lost Bengali gratitude? It is India and to the extent now that Typhoid Mary is claiming that ISI runs that country.

There is no denying Pak-India animosity and I think only an idiot would assume that your enemy would not take advantage of your problems.

Pakistan had internal problems in Balochistan. Govt tried to blame it on India but despite not being a democratic country and all that, Pakistanis did not buy it and it is now a purely internal problem that will have to be solved by the Pakistani and I think they realize it. But what happens in India? There is no serious effort in India to resolve problems in Northeast, AP or in Kashmir.
Sending in the army is the only resolution this “great” democratic country has for every political problem.

“It is bad policy to give away land won in war,”

Another example of “Hindu mentality”. China gave up Indian land and sure it was bad Chinese policy.

India needs to hand over Kashmir to Pakiland on a platter if it has any chance of growing economically.....NOT..

$10bn, 11 wks: Global majors home in India
Our Economy Bureau / New Delhi December 08, 2005
In the last 11 weeks, international information technology majors and non-resident Indians have announced investment plans of around $10 billion in the country.

In the last seven weeks, global players including Cisco, Intel, AMD and Microsoft have committed to investing $6.85 billion in India over the next three to five years. These investments span the entire gamut of IT services — software, microprocessors and networking equipment.

Microsoft Corporation today announced its decision to invest $1.7 billion in India over the next four years. Earlier this week, Intel Corporation, the world’s largest chip-maker, announced an investment package of $1.05 billion over the next five years.

To complete the loop, a consortium of Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) and SemIndia (a group of NRIs) and Indian Equipment Manufacturing company (another NRI consortium) announced plans to set up separate fabrication units.

It is bad policy to give away land won in war, on pretext of international image. International image of any country which does that would be mud - in India`s case it would only encourage foreign missionaries and ISI`s friends in Bangladesh to heat up the insurgencies in the North east, the Pakistanis to provide more support to the Khalistan-minded and China to beef up the Naxalites(instead of disowning them as it did recently).


As it is the mercenaries fighting in J&K come from many countries - India would be making its citizens even more vulnerable by rewarding their efforts. People sitting safely in the protection of a foreign military alliance that defends its own can recommend that to India without consequences, but not an Indian in India.

India doesn`t owe any foreign country or the world community anything, it owes its own citizens something. It doesn`t owe its citizens to let them cease being its citizens, it owes them every possible other opportunity which it is well-placed to provide.

Demanding justice and peace for the people of J&K is one thing - but for a democracy to give concessions to the world view of those Pakistanis who are actively sabotaging free political process not only in J&K but in Afghanistan and Pakistan and perhaps Iraq and Bangladesh, will be criminal.

And for purpose should India give legitimacy to those Muslims who consider it a matter of principle to throw out nonMuslims living among them as a prerequisite to asserting their rights. Was India allowing Muslims to throw out nonMuslims from Pakistan (and now Bangladesh) not enough concession to Muslim rights that Indians must now encourage the cleansing of nonMuslims from J&K as well.

#100 by dost-mittar on December 7, 2005 5:20am PT


You`ve nailed it on the head...It`s always funny when pakis come out of pakiworld into the real world and find that the moral high horse they thought they were on is actually a donkey..

Re: # 97

kab tak ho tumhara suKhan-e-talKh gavaaraa
is zahar meN kitnaa hai asar dekh rahe haiN!

aadaab arz hai

#92 by syedjaved on December 7, 2005 1:30am PT
Re: # 87
``You seem to be the kind of person no one can have any decent and reasonable talk.``

You have a paki mentality genetically, and a mind nurtured on pakistaniyat. So no one can have any decent and reasonable talk with you (well..except Dost Mitter, and offcourse Arjun) LOL.

So remind me...why does India need SAARC again..it seems to be doing quite well on it`s own...

Bill Gates` big plan: $1.7 billion investment in India

December 07, 2005 14:49 IST

Bill Gates, Chairman of Microsoft Corp, the world`s largest software company, said that the company will invest $1.7 billion in India over the next four years to expand its operations.

Javed Saheb#95:

You have asked some valid question now and I will try to give succinct answers to them. I have expressed these views on chowk earlier but I am repeating them for your benefit.

``They are protecting the terrotry that does not belong to them.``

India`s legal right to the territory of Jammu and Kashmir, including POK and Northern areas, is impeccable. The Independence Act gave the rulers of princely states the unfettered right to join either country or remain independent. Even Jinnah approached only the Maharaja of Kashmir and completely ignored political parties in Kashmir and Sheikh Abdullah, the undisputed leader of Muslim Kashmiris at that time.

``They are killing the people they don`t have any respect and regard for them.``

They are killing people who have no regard for human life, including their own. They have kidnapped and killed many more people than the Indian security forces have and most of their victims have been fellow Kashmiri Muslims who do not happen to agree with them.

``Then why are they adamant keeping them under their authority. India should respect humanity and allow Kashmiries to decide upon their own future by themselves through a plebiscite under the aegies of United Nations.``

One wonders if the modern concept of self-determination should apply to people with the seventh century mentality of creating nations in the name of Islam [Please not that I am not saying that all Muslims have this mentality]. If you disregard the numbers for a moment, you will realise that there are a number of Non-Muslim groups in Kashmir - Pandits, Dogras, Sikhs, Buddhists and Chrisitians. None of these groups wants to secede from India. The only people who want to separate are an indeterminate number of Muslims; even among them the majority of shias (around Kargil area) probably do not want to secede.

When addressing the demand of Hurriyet-follwing Kashmiris, one should ask why do they want to join Pakistan? Is Pakistani passport more respected in the world than the Indian passport? Will their ethnic or linguistic identity be more secure in Pakistan than India (please note that Kashmiris under Pakistan are now indistinguishable from Punjabis)? Will they have access to larger market, more tourists, better economic or educational opportunities in Pakistan than in India? Do Pakistani provinces have greater autonomy than Indian states? Do the Chief Ministers of Pakistani provinces have more powers than the Chief Minister of an Indian state? Do Pakistanis get to choose their governments more often than Indians?

If you look at the answers to these questions, you realise that any rational Kashmiri would choose India over Pakistan or even independence. If not, it is only because of the seventh century concept of dar-ul-Islam and dar-ul-harb, which should not be confused with the modern concept of self-determination.

``What hell will fall on India by just allowing their inalianable right to Kashmiries to decide upon their own future course of action whether to join Pakistan or remain with India or opt out for complete independence?``

Here I am in agreement with you. I think that India made a grievous mistake by agreeing to a plebiscite but having done so, should listen to the what the people want. India has gotten nothing but grief in holding on to Kashmir and in not fulfilling its promise. It will be stronger economically, politically, morally and have a much better international image if it lets go of people who do not want to stay in India, regardless of the medieval mentality that is driving their desire to secede.

``If there is no justification for terror then there cannot be any justification for state terrorism as well.``

There is no justification for state terror. Unfortunately, it is generally an unavoidable consequence of private terrorism supported by a section of the people willing to hide them.

Regards.

#96 by syedjaved on December 7, 2005 2:33am PT


However, we should not foreget the fact that when we talk about Kashmir we are not talking about a piece of land.


That line of reasoning would have been given more credence had it not come after repeated and failed wars to snatch Indian Kashmir away by force...Most Indians think you`re only using the ``oh think of the poor Kashmiris`` line because the ``one muslim = 10 hindus`` one failed..

BTW, if Kashmir isn`t about a piece of land, what about the part of Kashmir you gifted away...you know..to your chicom buddies?

Syed Javed...you have lost your credibility and proved yourself to be a little racist prick.Convoluted explanations like the one below will only make it worse.

Re: # 10
``Hindu Mentality`` has created a lot of fuss and has taken over the main theme of the article. Hindu mentality is referred to the most extremist outfits in India whose doubtful credentials as well as crimes against humanity are manifest even to Hindu masses. The problem arises when the mainstream Hindu leaders unwittingly fall in lines with these outfits and go against their own national interest. As it has happened on the question of Kashmir which has made as territorial disputes completely ignoring the fact that the issue has overriding humanitarian moorings affecting the lives of millions of people in the region. What is holding candid Hindu leaders back from solving a humanitarian issue of gigantice nature in the region?

Re: # 46
Dear I respect your comments. However, we should not foreget the fact that when we talk about Kashmir we are not talking about a piece of land. We are talking about a humanitarian issue involving and affecting the lives of millions of people in the region. The problem with India is that it takes Kashmir as territorial disputes whereas Kashmiries as well as Pakistan along with its wellwishers in International community take it as a problem with potential to make or marr the lives of millions of people. Once India and Pakistan come round to this idea then the solution of Kashmir will not be far behind. I wonder what is holding us back?

Re: # 84
They are protecting the terrotry that does not belong to them. They are killing the people they don`t have any respect and regard for them. Then why are they adamant keeping them under their authority. India should respect humanity and allow Kashmiries to decide upon their own future by themselves through a plebiscite under the aegies of United Nations. What hell will fall on India by just allowing their inalianable right to Kashmiries to decide upon their own future course of action whether to join Pakistan or remain with India or opt out for complete independence.? If there is no justification for terror then there cannot be any justification for state terrorism as well.

Re: # 85
What about hundred thousands of innocent men, women and children who have been killed, maimed and looted so far in Indian Held Kashmir? Is is simply untrue? Pl wake up and don`t blame Muslims for every wrong in the world although they cannot be absolved of their responsibility in making the world far less safe and peaceful place to live.

Re: # 87
You seem to be the kind of person no one can have any decent and reasonable talk with. Why are you pissing around? Go to ......... . We don`t need to bother about intellectual terrorists like you san intellect. Why cannot you talk sense and sensibily too. You seem to be some sort of mentally twisted and morally depraved creature called human being. Pl discuss the article thoughtfully without calling names. Then it may be too much to expect from you. regds

Re: # 87
You seem to be the kind of person no one can have any decent and reasonable talk. Why are you pissing around? Go to ......... . We don`t need to bother about intellectual terrorists like you san intellect. Why cannot you talk sense and sensibily too. You seem to be some sort of mentally twisted and morally depraved creature called human being. Pl discuss the article thoughtfully without calling names. Then it may be too much to expect from you. regds

Re: # 89

I will take Indian politician to run the country and Indian military to protect the country
any time over Pakistani counterparts.

#89 by HP on December 6, 2005 11:15am PT

Aww...another paki cab driver, pissed off at the fact that allah`s soldiers haven`t been able to dislodge the bania from Indian Kashmir...

Kashmir banega Pakistan!!

#88 by arjun_m on December 6, 2005 10:23am PT
“#83 by syedjaved on December 6, 2005 4:48am PT

Why should India have the largest concentration of any army on earth in Kashmir?
Because they can.”

Because they have 1 million joker of an army and they can’t find any work for them. Some of them are just cardboard cutouts.
Because the one Million strong army can’t take out 2000 barely armed men.

Because the Indian govt is clueless like most of its citizens.

Because the Indian parliament wishes to spend time on Nut-war singh affair and not on resolving real problems.
Because the Indian democracy is a joke with jokers climbing ropes in the Parliament.

Because 20 years is not enough time for one million strong army to deal with unarmed women and Children.

#83 by syedjaved on December 6, 2005 4:48am PT


Why should India have the largest concentration of any army on earth in Kashmir?


Because they can.
Because they`re fighting Islamic terrorists.
Because there isn`t anything Pakiland or anyone else can do about it.

no jihad, no dead terrorists...no jihadis, no Kashmiris killed by the jihadis...

#80 by syedjaved
you, your family, and your nation is a stupid, dirty, deluded people who cause trouble to others. there, see the light?

AlephNull, sorry for the typos in #75.

The amusing thing about twits like syedjaved is that they really dont understand how hateful their language is, how full of arrogance and contempt their proposals are. They have always lived in an environment where islamo-supremacy is the highest value and their outputs reflect exactly that. Once they arrive on the open internet they stand exposed as sectarian bigots masquerading as ``peacemakers``.

They
are unable to comprehend that humility and open-ness is needed in any solution. Instead, they will continue to focus on fantasies about Kashmir, creation of islamic state from Morocco to Indonesia and so on and so forth.

And this kind of thinking and narrow-mindedness will help solve the problems with SARC?

It is more likely that my dog will crack the Riemann Hypothesis.

syedjaved#79:

Such rhetorical questions can only get simple, maybe too simple, answers, such as:

``Why can`t we solve our problems?``

Because Pakistan wants to change the status quo.

``Why should India have the largest concentration of any army on earth in Kashmir?``

Because it is fighting a religion-based insurgency supported by a terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan.

``What service to Kashmir and humanity is India doing by daily killing five to ten kashmiris on the average?``

Trying to protect its territorial integrity. In any case, many of these kashmiris are killed by jihadis.

``For God`s sake come to sense and save the region from yet another impending disaster.``

For God`s sake, come to sense and demolish jihadi infrastructure and stop making a distinction between a good jihadi and a bad jihadi.

Re: # 79
Why can`t we solve our problems? Why should India have the largest concentration of any army on earth in Kashmir? What service to Kashmir and humanity is India doing by daily killing five to ten kashmiris on the average? For God`s sake come to sense and save the region from yet another impending disaster. regds

Re: # 56
Focus on facts and don`t drag other people into it. Try to change your own mentality and be open, refreshing and considerate to the point of view of others.

Re: # 53
Your remarks cannot stop me from bringing the truth to light. Learn how to face it. regds

Re: # 17
What does this mean? Where does go one`s right to free speech?

`` ‘Conflict resolution’ is not the only symptomatic problem inhibiting SAARC to overcome its inertia. Most profusely, the absence of trust between India and Pakistan to tackle and resolve bilateral problems haunting both countries has affected even their approach to the problems for their resolutions. Pakistan wants to go fast (head on in Shaukat Aziz’s terms) whereas India wants to go slow; step by step. Pakistan wants to be open and frank in dealing with all issues while India, may be in line with Hindu mentality, wants to be secretive and confidential. ``

What does Pakistan want to do ?

ahmedmadani #33

`` At this time Arabs are rich but mentally its backward and selfish society. By all measures even though IRP is poor arab social structure is too backward and they can not be drag forced in modern times as they are rich. The problem is that they are selfish and they will not go for union at this time as they do not want to share wealth with poor nations. There should be cultural change, presently they only care about merchantile not about brotherhood. But who nows about future, they may become advanced modern society like Europe and America. ``

Most Arabs do not live in oil rich societies.

Why blame the Saudis for not sharing their oil wealth ? It is not like Pakistani elite or even average Pakistani would be any better.

ahmedmadani #16

`` Oneway out is have NonIndia SAARAC.
Meetings of two people can be useful. More than two participant meetings are useless always. As in such meetings mostly people come to conclusion that nothing can be done in this meeting and so they should have next meeting.

We are giving too much importance to India. We can other NONINDIA blocks. Pakistan , Nepal, Bangladesh can be strong block. ``

Wasn`t Bangladesh a part of Pakistan some time ago ? Nepal and Bhutan have a choice between India and China. They won`t say publicly but if their lives are on the line they will prefer India to China. Bangladesh could team up the wonderful state of Burma. Pakistan has a choice to team up with Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asian Republics. I doubt the generals will ever give up their obsession with Kashmir to do that.

`` Really we should look westwards as people of common faith and different than hindu faith. Now famous people like EX IRP Bengali PM said about Ummah o+o+o+o=....= BIG Zero.
That is not right, there is always one ummah dominating that is Hindu Ummah. That hindu Ummah is not known like that but is reality is Hindu Ummah. So different people, langangue, creed, culture, color, food, cloth very dissimilar are commected by cocept of Ummah. ``

India is a pre-dominantly Hindu state. There is a lot more than religion that unifies a lot of Indians - customs, culture, race, food, music, language etc.

`` Pakistan should look and envision for United Muslims States (UMS). Our leadership has wasted time in SAARAC, there can not be Ummah of hindu India, Buddhist Lanka, Muslim IRP and BD. We can be neighbour but friendship is unislamic concept and nonworkable. If it was possible then we will have not pakistan.We should look westwestward to form great MUSLIM Block from North Africa to east west of Japan. This UMS wil have more than 63% of exportable oil in world and more army under commands than India and if armaments will out did india anytime. In UMS IRP can be leading nation due to its unique position and can act as arm of UMS. Most educated and powerful masses of people. Western desert oils of Iraq, Iran and KSA combined with manpower of IRP citizen can make miracles. Presently kashmir problem is stagnating and not necessarily in our favor. All sacrafice made for that cause have not gone anywhere and division country has occured at disadvantage. ``

Nice in theory.

Why would Iran or Saudi Arabia want to join an union with Pakistan ? Even people living in fourth rate society like Afghanistan do not want to.

`` Generals have lost faith in themselves and abandoned path of achievement than just giving concessions as people of country are ready to make sacrafice and solve problems and keep India out of misery.
Its necessary to deafeat India on battlefield and then problem will be solved as per our wishes. Then only army can regain its honor, armies regain honors by defeating enemy and putting humilating conditions or otherside not by peaceful resoutions of confidence building measures. ``

Are you deluded ? When has the Pakistani army ever launched a large scale offensive against India ? All the wars against India were based on three week supply of ammunition.

`` Otherwise we will loose like Egypt and Jordan. Both faught for PLO and were humilated and they were abandoned by PLO. Jorden lost Westbank. There is danger we may loose Kashmir and all sacrafices will go to drains. Indians have not budged on single point. What is point in talking ?. This crossing and opening of border will lead to damage to pakistan in spirit. Why not do same with all Muslim Ummah with Iran and all arab countries. We are paying for f-16, there are hundreds of F-16 with KSA, turkey, if ummah takes place all arsanel will be available against india. ``

When did PLO abandon Egypt and Jordan ?? It would be more like Egypt and Jordan abandoning the PLO.

hamzaad #3

`` Is there an instance ever in the history of world, when people on top of the food-chain have done anything for the people lower down? ``

A lot of enlightened elites have done a lot of good for society. Life does not have to be always a zero sum game.

AlephNull#73
Yes. They also complained how flexible Pakistan is, it doesn`t blame India for every terrorist incident.

Whenever this BJP guy urged that India believes mutual trade would be beneficial, Mushahid Hussain would retort and say no India is not really sincere because if it was then why doesn`t India allow China to be a member of SAARC? Do you see any connection between these two issues - membership of China and intra-SAARC trade?

The BJP guy pointed out that trade with China is not an issue with India as India-China trade exceeds India-US trade(apparently) and that too with outstanding border disputes. He also kept explaining that similarly in increasing Indo-Pak trade and economic cooperation, no side need lose any ground(figuratively) in outstanding border disputes.

Hussain also blamed India for not letting the oil pipeline project come through. (There was an honest Pakistani in the audience who said he had seen the pipeline issue from behind the scenes in 3 countries and hinted that Pak govt says one thing for public benefit and does something else in reality).

The point which seemed clear to me representatives of Pakistanis really interested in making money in Indo-Pak trade would discuss the issues in a much more serious way. Also that the Pakistani government and ruling party doesnot represent Pakistanis who have a stake in increased trade and cooperation with India. It represents the Army. It is of no significance to them that both BJP and Congress are urging it from this side- they see increased trade as inimical to the Army`s interests, period.

So they are simply coming up with any number of excuses and complaints to forestall such increased trade and implying that India must first offer them territory as an incentive for such increased trade. If my impression is correct, then I don`t which world Pak govt lives in.

#44 Arjun_m

It`s not just Autos .. JPM to hire 4500 graduates to support investment banking activities.

SAARC or no SAARC, the world knows where talent