The Interview
Rajesh Shankaran February 26, 2006
#49 Posted by jay1 on March 3, 2006 6:05:21 am
#48..
may peace be upon both of us!! :)
swarrier you seem to be a noble guy!
This is the problem..
people take ``fact pointing`` as personal attacks especially in the ``green world``!
And that is the point i am making ..unless there is tolerance for dissent (even for the heck of it), no progress is possible.
Krishna`s ``satyam apriyam na brooyat`` applies, but i hate to conform to that.
That is a politician`s point of view..``dont disenchant the masses`` etc.
If only indians called a spade a spade, half the ``minority kat kat`` would be solved!
Other wise this pandering to vote banks, and pseudo secularism will lead to endless trouble.
People who ``demand`` thing MUST understand ``tali ek hath se nahi bajaa karti``.
No point in ``taka take`` all the time with no ``give``!
Minorities clamouring for ``sameness`` at one place, cant clamour for ``special treatment`` at some other place. (that is what is happening in india with impunity..``1000 rs /dish biryanis for haj yatris and what for the amarnath yatris? think about this ...)
Jayen
may peace be upon both of us!! :)
swarrier you seem to be a noble guy!
This is the problem..
people take ``fact pointing`` as personal attacks especially in the ``green world``!
And that is the point i am making ..unless there is tolerance for dissent (even for the heck of it), no progress is possible.
Krishna`s ``satyam apriyam na brooyat`` applies, but i hate to conform to that.
That is a politician`s point of view..``dont disenchant the masses`` etc.
If only indians called a spade a spade, half the ``minority kat kat`` would be solved!
Other wise this pandering to vote banks, and pseudo secularism will lead to endless trouble.
People who ``demand`` thing MUST understand ``tali ek hath se nahi bajaa karti``.
No point in ``taka take`` all the time with no ``give``!
Minorities clamouring for ``sameness`` at one place, cant clamour for ``special treatment`` at some other place. (that is what is happening in india with impunity..``1000 rs /dish biryanis for haj yatris and what for the amarnath yatris? think about this ...)
Jayen
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#48 Posted by swarrier on March 2, 2006 10:29:43 am
Re: # 47
My dear chap, some of your sentiments are quite admirable and some of your statements are true. However all I`m saying is (and which you no doubt agree) all people aren`t the same and this is only a tale spun by Rajesh. And you`ve scared everybody off this story. I bet Rajesh hates us both.)))
My dear chap, some of your sentiments are quite admirable and some of your statements are true. However all I`m saying is (and which you no doubt agree) all people aren`t the same and this is only a tale spun by Rajesh. And you`ve scared everybody off this story. I bet Rajesh hates us both.)))
#47 Posted by jay1 on March 2, 2006 10:09:08 am
#44..
regarding fighting..
who says i am fighting?
I am only ``showing`` you some ``bad`` facts! (bad to your liking that is! )
and regarding fighting etc, i am doing my thing well on this site.
Muhammad proper would be a sad man if he were alive today!
What have his followers turned into, cut throats, hate mongers and likeer ke fakeers?
On a science forum i had this ``islamic student`` girl aggressively asking me the koran foretells that the earth will stop rotating on such and such a day, what do you say to that?
well i gave her a piece of my mind since she asked for it.
I told her the arabs who ruled spain and founded such exquisite cities as granada in spain, that had street lighting and public baths 1000 years ago, were NOT this breed we see now..no construction all destrcution!!
They civilised europe and made them so green with envy that the europeans literally had the renaissance forced on them!
Too bad their progeny is mired too deep in self flagellation and bigotry.
The hindus in a parallel were forced out of their stupor by ram mohan roy and dayanand saraswati to a very large extent.
Where are their islamic equivalents?
In spiritualism there is a golden rule..unless the shishya is ready the guru does not appear!
well in this case trhe shishyas will take long for the guru to appear it seems.
Jayen
regarding fighting..
who says i am fighting?
I am only ``showing`` you some ``bad`` facts! (bad to your liking that is! )
and regarding fighting etc, i am doing my thing well on this site.
Muhammad proper would be a sad man if he were alive today!
What have his followers turned into, cut throats, hate mongers and likeer ke fakeers?
On a science forum i had this ``islamic student`` girl aggressively asking me the koran foretells that the earth will stop rotating on such and such a day, what do you say to that?
well i gave her a piece of my mind since she asked for it.
I told her the arabs who ruled spain and founded such exquisite cities as granada in spain, that had street lighting and public baths 1000 years ago, were NOT this breed we see now..no construction all destrcution!!
They civilised europe and made them so green with envy that the europeans literally had the renaissance forced on them!
Too bad their progeny is mired too deep in self flagellation and bigotry.
The hindus in a parallel were forced out of their stupor by ram mohan roy and dayanand saraswati to a very large extent.
Where are their islamic equivalents?
In spiritualism there is a golden rule..unless the shishya is ready the guru does not appear!
well in this case trhe shishyas will take long for the guru to appear it seems.
Jayen
#46 Posted by jay1 on March 2, 2006 9:57:18 am
Hi
#44..wow! that is refreshing..you might get a feeling oh i am on the right side! well you are, but you are still an exception.
secondly a guy like you should not be missing the obvious point! why had rajiv gandhi to intervene?
Do you know the muslim personal law board had created such a ruckus about that case?
Oh but being a ``fashionably secular guy`` you would only fault rajiv gandhi (peace be upon him) :)
You WOULDNT be caught saying anything BAD about the muslim personal law board would you?
Who knows you would be the next guy they would be scalping? so selective in amnesia!
Secondly the guys who killed 100s of indians over a silly mosque, are brazenly silent over that shia ``resting place of imams`` that was destroyed by sunni fundos!
Wow ! i beg you to take a stand on that?
Oh but you would ofcourse say ``woh unka mamla hai! ``
a 1000 ways of quoting the bible when things get too close for comfort!
Jayen
#44..wow! that is refreshing..you might get a feeling oh i am on the right side! well you are, but you are still an exception.
secondly a guy like you should not be missing the obvious point! why had rajiv gandhi to intervene?
Do you know the muslim personal law board had created such a ruckus about that case?
Oh but being a ``fashionably secular guy`` you would only fault rajiv gandhi (peace be upon him) :)
You WOULDNT be caught saying anything BAD about the muslim personal law board would you?
Who knows you would be the next guy they would be scalping? so selective in amnesia!
Secondly the guys who killed 100s of indians over a silly mosque, are brazenly silent over that shia ``resting place of imams`` that was destroyed by sunni fundos!
Wow ! i beg you to take a stand on that?
Oh but you would ofcourse say ``woh unka mamla hai! ``
a 1000 ways of quoting the bible when things get too close for comfort!
Jayen
#45 Posted by swarrier on March 2, 2006 7:14:56 am
Re: # 44
His name is Aditya. It`s Sanskrit. I hope you would know that. It means Lord of the Sun. Is that good enough for you?
Now let`s keep this short. If you don`t have any more opinions of the story you can join fights in other places on chowk. There are plenty of areas.
The Shah Bano case, if you remember , the court`s verdict was overturned by Rajiv Gandhi and his cronies due to politiical reasons. All it did was prevent a poor old Muslim woman from getting some money to live a life.
Don`t tar everybody with the same brush.
Adios
His name is Aditya. It`s Sanskrit. I hope you would know that. It means Lord of the Sun. Is that good enough for you?
Now let`s keep this short. If you don`t have any more opinions of the story you can join fights in other places on chowk. There are plenty of areas.
The Shah Bano case, if you remember , the court`s verdict was overturned by Rajiv Gandhi and his cronies due to politiical reasons. All it did was prevent a poor old Muslim woman from getting some money to live a life.
Don`t tar everybody with the same brush.
Adios
#44 Posted by jay1 on March 2, 2006 6:00:38 am
#43 ..
No idea where you stand in the social pecking order..
normally people low down and way up are always liberal.
for the low down ones it does not matter..poor souls that they are..
for the high andd mighty..they dont care!
It is the ``poor`` middle class that carries the baggage.
I would be pleasantly surprised if your nephew had a hindu name! (most likely not).
THAT IS THE TEST ..HOW MUCH ARE THE MUSLIMS READY TO LET GO TO ASSIMILATE.
After all we do have thousands of christian ``sudhakars`` and ``ashas``..but sadly one NEVER comes across muslims with indian names. (read hindu not because i am a chauvinist but because these are secular irreligous names springing out of thousands of years of ``local`` civilisation) ..BUT MUSLIMS love to show they are different.
Hence the stupid opposition to amending the personal law for the muslims (shah bano if you remember).
Again if you undertake a study..90% cases are such, where non-muslim spouses are ``forced`` to convert. (forced implying ``shadi karni hai to ...vegairah vagarah..vagairah which i have come to call the ``or else!`` factor)
Jayen
No idea where you stand in the social pecking order..
normally people low down and way up are always liberal.
for the low down ones it does not matter..poor souls that they are..
for the high andd mighty..they dont care!
It is the ``poor`` middle class that carries the baggage.
I would be pleasantly surprised if your nephew had a hindu name! (most likely not).
THAT IS THE TEST ..HOW MUCH ARE THE MUSLIMS READY TO LET GO TO ASSIMILATE.
After all we do have thousands of christian ``sudhakars`` and ``ashas``..but sadly one NEVER comes across muslims with indian names. (read hindu not because i am a chauvinist but because these are secular irreligous names springing out of thousands of years of ``local`` civilisation) ..BUT MUSLIMS love to show they are different.
Hence the stupid opposition to amending the personal law for the muslims (shah bano if you remember).
Again if you undertake a study..90% cases are such, where non-muslim spouses are ``forced`` to convert. (forced implying ``shadi karni hai to ...vegairah vagarah..vagairah which i have come to call the ``or else!`` factor)
Jayen
#43 Posted by swarrier on March 1, 2006 6:49:44 am
Re: # 42
Actually Rajesh what you have labelled heroism here would be labelled as passivity. If you want to look at the characters themselves Rohit does not come across as a hero. He comes comes across more as a bigot. Now if Rohit had said the same thing in a room where there was even one Muslim then we could argue that he had courage of his convictions nothing more. That would still not make him a hero though. But he said this in a room where there were no Muslims as far as I can make out.
As for Ranjana you can admire her as well as her husband for breaking conventions. But not heroism. How about having the not present husband as the hero. He could have defied his family? I speak from experience here.
My cousin is married to a Muslim. The opposition to the marriage came from his family not hers. His family was originally bothered about him marrying into a non Muslim family.
I agree with the characterisation of the the narrator. A shiftless individual like most of us are. As Tara Deshpande said in Bombay Boys, ``not hero material yaar``.
And Jay1 . My cousin has not converted. She has a son and my nephew is perfectly happy without any religious baggage.
Actually Rajesh what you have labelled heroism here would be labelled as passivity. If you want to look at the characters themselves Rohit does not come across as a hero. He comes comes across more as a bigot. Now if Rohit had said the same thing in a room where there was even one Muslim then we could argue that he had courage of his convictions nothing more. That would still not make him a hero though. But he said this in a room where there were no Muslims as far as I can make out.
As for Ranjana you can admire her as well as her husband for breaking conventions. But not heroism. How about having the not present husband as the hero. He could have defied his family? I speak from experience here.
My cousin is married to a Muslim. The opposition to the marriage came from his family not hers. His family was originally bothered about him marrying into a non Muslim family.
I agree with the characterisation of the the narrator. A shiftless individual like most of us are. As Tara Deshpande said in Bombay Boys, ``not hero material yaar``.
And Jay1 . My cousin has not converted. She has a son and my nephew is perfectly happy without any religious baggage.
#42 Posted by rajesh_shankara on March 1, 2006 4:20:47 am
It is an admission of failure for an author to have to issue addendum to his story. On that note -
1.The heroes of the story to me are Rohit and Ranjana. They have broken convention and taken a stand. Rohit does not go after Islam (no reference to beards, mullahs or terrorists). He argues with facts or atleast figures. One reader told me she thinks the story is phony because no one today could air such thoughts in public. If that is true, Rohit is to lauded all the more.
2.Adrian is audience surrogate and also to highlight the difference between perception of Christians and Muslims among Hindus
3.The narrating character claims to be close to the directors. He admits to being well-paid in a company that cannot pay very well. Yet he is willing to play the sad nice loser. This way he carries no guilt and yet protects his cosy turf. I think we have too many of such characters and not enough Rohits and Ranjanas in society.
To me a Narendra Modi or OBL are far more honest, in telling us where they stand, than the secularists who fill our papers and channels each day. I suppose this was too ambiguous / subtle / buried in all that text.
1.The heroes of the story to me are Rohit and Ranjana. They have broken convention and taken a stand. Rohit does not go after Islam (no reference to beards, mullahs or terrorists). He argues with facts or atleast figures. One reader told me she thinks the story is phony because no one today could air such thoughts in public. If that is true, Rohit is to lauded all the more.
2.Adrian is audience surrogate and also to highlight the difference between perception of Christians and Muslims among Hindus
3.The narrating character claims to be close to the directors. He admits to being well-paid in a company that cannot pay very well. Yet he is willing to play the sad nice loser. This way he carries no guilt and yet protects his cosy turf. I think we have too many of such characters and not enough Rohits and Ranjanas in society.
To me a Narendra Modi or OBL are far more honest, in telling us where they stand, than the secularists who fill our papers and channels each day. I suppose this was too ambiguous / subtle / buried in all that text.
#41 Posted by jay1 on March 1, 2006 1:51:13 am
hi all,
If you will note i have nowhere said ISLAM per se is bad,
I berate its benighted followers only.
any problem with that?
YOU WILL NOT FIND ME GOING ``COW-PEE DRINKER`` equivalent to muslims anywhere on this site. THAT LOW level is reserved for the paki guys like ``whats his name`` in another area on this site.
Mine is strictly an intellectual debate.
I have been unsparing of hindus too where they need to change.
I have watched hours of debate on ptv and geo and ary.
It is always onesided, tomtoming of govt lines and alway ``islam is right and great and the rest of the world is wrong.
anjalipurohit..my ire is mainly on this count.
Many hindutva guys claim ``in the end india will rule the world``!
Wow! what makes indians so special?
But this forum is about muslims mainly so you see only my muslim critique.
#38..
I never said so amywhere..
My point is ..and you wont be able to refute it..
when the barbri mosque (where no one had offered namaz for years earlier) was destroyed, we got the serial bomb blasts from ``gaddaar`` muslims.
When the mosques in iraq were destroyed not even a whimper of protest in India! or Pakistan!
Now any self respecting indian OUGHT to think about that and be angry at the double standards involved within this otherwise DEMANDING community..what have you to say to that?
#39..
Exceptions always prove the rule.
#40..
You represent the ``fashionably`` secular indian..
Blissfully unaware of what is cooking in the country around you.
People of one community can bomb your country, kill its cityzens under ``percieved grivance`` that are often contrived in nature, their mullahs may preach separatism..
Oh but you HAVE to be seen on YOUR HIGH HORSE dont you?
This is what happened to rome just before its demise..concession after concession was given to buy off the barbarians at the gates.
But there were simply too many of them and their greed insatiable.
The inevitable collapse came thanks to people like you.
Else where on this site i have typical muslim responses like ``you cow-pee drinker`` etc.
But #40 will be so habituated to that that she most probably think..``muslims will be muslims``...along the lines of boys will be boys and just continue being her ``good shining self``..
By the way have you read the koran and the bible or for the matter any upanishads?
I have. so i am NOT communal.
I have lived with achhoots, literally sleeping in same room, eaten ``non-veg`` stuff in a muslim home, and have muslim friends.
BUT I CALL A SPADE A SPADE.
Jayen
If you will note i have nowhere said ISLAM per se is bad,
I berate its benighted followers only.
any problem with that?
YOU WILL NOT FIND ME GOING ``COW-PEE DRINKER`` equivalent to muslims anywhere on this site. THAT LOW level is reserved for the paki guys like ``whats his name`` in another area on this site.
Mine is strictly an intellectual debate.
I have been unsparing of hindus too where they need to change.
I have watched hours of debate on ptv and geo and ary.
It is always onesided, tomtoming of govt lines and alway ``islam is right and great and the rest of the world is wrong.
anjalipurohit..my ire is mainly on this count.
Many hindutva guys claim ``in the end india will rule the world``!
Wow! what makes indians so special?
But this forum is about muslims mainly so you see only my muslim critique.
#38..
I never said so amywhere..
My point is ..and you wont be able to refute it..
when the barbri mosque (where no one had offered namaz for years earlier) was destroyed, we got the serial bomb blasts from ``gaddaar`` muslims.
When the mosques in iraq were destroyed not even a whimper of protest in India! or Pakistan!
Now any self respecting indian OUGHT to think about that and be angry at the double standards involved within this otherwise DEMANDING community..what have you to say to that?
#39..
Exceptions always prove the rule.
#40..
You represent the ``fashionably`` secular indian..
Blissfully unaware of what is cooking in the country around you.
People of one community can bomb your country, kill its cityzens under ``percieved grivance`` that are often contrived in nature, their mullahs may preach separatism..
Oh but you HAVE to be seen on YOUR HIGH HORSE dont you?
This is what happened to rome just before its demise..concession after concession was given to buy off the barbarians at the gates.
But there were simply too many of them and their greed insatiable.
The inevitable collapse came thanks to people like you.
Else where on this site i have typical muslim responses like ``you cow-pee drinker`` etc.
But #40 will be so habituated to that that she most probably think..``muslims will be muslims``...along the lines of boys will be boys and just continue being her ``good shining self``..
By the way have you read the koran and the bible or for the matter any upanishads?
I have. so i am NOT communal.
I have lived with achhoots, literally sleeping in same room, eaten ``non-veg`` stuff in a muslim home, and have muslim friends.
BUT I CALL A SPADE A SPADE.
Jayen
#40 Posted by anjalipurohit on February 28, 2006 10:33:25 pm
Re: # 37
Communalism was introduced in the subcontinent by the British to divide the people and keep them from rising against the rulers.
Again today the same divisions are sharpened for the very same reason.
By unleashing your vitriol you are only submitting to the designs of cynical exploiters not worthy of belonging to any faith who claim they represent a religion but in fact are a blot on its teachings.
But then there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Please do try to see beyond deciept.
Communalism was introduced in the subcontinent by the British to divide the people and keep them from rising against the rulers.
Again today the same divisions are sharpened for the very same reason.
By unleashing your vitriol you are only submitting to the designs of cynical exploiters not worthy of belonging to any faith who claim they represent a religion but in fact are a blot on its teachings.
But then there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Please do try to see beyond deciept.
#39 Posted by amansandhu on February 28, 2006 4:41:05 pm
I know two couples in Delhi. One a hindu girl married to a muslim guy and another a muslim girl married to a hindu guy. I have never felt them to be anything else than Indians. The muslim guy and the muslim girl behave like any other modern Indian.
#38 Posted by wahi_to on February 28, 2006 3:24:40 pm
Re: # 37
jay you need to chill down. take few deep breaths and relax. there is too much anger and maybe hatred in you.
now let me ask you. personally has any muslim ever hurt you in any way. have you been harrassed by them, have they ridiculed your religion or hurt you in any way?
jay you need to chill down. take few deep breaths and relax. there is too much anger and maybe hatred in you.
now let me ask you. personally has any muslim ever hurt you in any way. have you been harrassed by them, have they ridiculed your religion or hurt you in any way?
#37 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 12:31:34 pm
Hi swarrier,
This is a good article.
Because, the author has written in a consistent narrative style, and his characters dont ``change traits`` like a chameleon..as happens in many badly written pieces.
In a good story, any character portrayed, must be consistent in its behaviour, once it has been displayed to belong to a type as such.
example:- the ``bad guy`` sulks ``hum mar gaye the kya`` ..and true to his type, rejects the girl.
It would be b bad story if the fellow ``suddenly improved`` and hired the girl. THAT would be inconsistent and contrived ..like the happy endings in many hindi movies..[Parinda was a happy exception. I was stunned when madhuri dixit and anil kapoor are gunned down just when they are ``at it``! No hindi movie had dared do that much any time earlier]..
so rest happy i am not cribbing about his quality of work..i am cribbing at the way the other two ``good guys`` are shown doing their thing..including the first person protagonist!
It has become fashionable in the secular world to PANDER to minority communities no matter how narrow and intolerant those very communities are!
Each new concession is percieved as a ``weakness``. Dont get me wrong!
the slogan ``hans ke liya pakistan...lad ke lenge hindustan`` says it all.
we have given them MOST FAVOURED NATION status, and the guys have the gall NOT to do so, and will grudgingly do so thanks only to the WTO, which makes it obligatory.
Look what happened in france ..the looting and burning..it is always ``we are poor ..give us money ..give us concessions..or else!!
it is ALWAYS ``OR ELSE``.
That is the sad part.
Aram to farmana hai, ``loot`` to chahiye..par kAM nahi karna hai``
is the order of the day.
The other day i visited pakistanidefenceforum.com one of those ``world-bashing-islam is great`` sites!
Imagine what one of the experts was propagating there!
CONVEY AND CONVINCE THE INDIANS THAT WE WILL NUKE THEM IF ANY OTHER COUNTRY ATTACKS US!
WHY?
SO THEY WILL FIGHT TO SAVE US!!
WOW! islamic dadagiri at its best or worst?
jayen
This is a good article.
Because, the author has written in a consistent narrative style, and his characters dont ``change traits`` like a chameleon..as happens in many badly written pieces.
In a good story, any character portrayed, must be consistent in its behaviour, once it has been displayed to belong to a type as such.
example:- the ``bad guy`` sulks ``hum mar gaye the kya`` ..and true to his type, rejects the girl.
It would be b bad story if the fellow ``suddenly improved`` and hired the girl. THAT would be inconsistent and contrived ..like the happy endings in many hindi movies..[Parinda was a happy exception. I was stunned when madhuri dixit and anil kapoor are gunned down just when they are ``at it``! No hindi movie had dared do that much any time earlier]..
so rest happy i am not cribbing about his quality of work..i am cribbing at the way the other two ``good guys`` are shown doing their thing..including the first person protagonist!
It has become fashionable in the secular world to PANDER to minority communities no matter how narrow and intolerant those very communities are!
Each new concession is percieved as a ``weakness``. Dont get me wrong!
the slogan ``hans ke liya pakistan...lad ke lenge hindustan`` says it all.
we have given them MOST FAVOURED NATION status, and the guys have the gall NOT to do so, and will grudgingly do so thanks only to the WTO, which makes it obligatory.
Look what happened in france ..the looting and burning..it is always ``we are poor ..give us money ..give us concessions..or else!!
it is ALWAYS ``OR ELSE``.
That is the sad part.
Aram to farmana hai, ``loot`` to chahiye..par kAM nahi karna hai``
is the order of the day.
The other day i visited pakistanidefenceforum.com one of those ``world-bashing-islam is great`` sites!
Imagine what one of the experts was propagating there!
CONVEY AND CONVINCE THE INDIANS THAT WE WILL NUKE THEM IF ANY OTHER COUNTRY ATTACKS US!
WHY?
SO THEY WILL FIGHT TO SAVE US!!
WOW! islamic dadagiri at its best or worst?
jayen
#36 Posted by swarrier on February 28, 2006 10:50:29 am
Re: # 35
So jay1 what`s your opinion about the story? Is it well written? Does it have flaws ?
So jay1 what`s your opinion about the story? Is it well written? Does it have flaws ?
#35 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 10:44:20 am
post 34:- haha! Defanged is the word!
Wow! good keep up the attitude!
i believe elsewhere on this site there is some discussion on ``humor`` in the muslim world!
Only the other day i had a guy threatening me with ``muslim anger`` just in the course of a minor discussion!
Man! humor is in short supply in some quarters surely!!
jayen
Wow! good keep up the attitude!
i believe elsewhere on this site there is some discussion on ``humor`` in the muslim world!
Only the other day i had a guy threatening me with ``muslim anger`` just in the course of a minor discussion!
Man! humor is in short supply in some quarters surely!!
jayen
#34 Posted by masanamuthu on February 28, 2006 10:09:00 am
jay:
cool down dude.. i was talking about the ``poor management decision`` of a 15 member company to lose a talented employee. Ideally it should not matter if she sleeps with a dog / man / another female.. How does that going to affect her work?.
I don`t like to get involved with ``religious fights`` though i do get dragged all the times.. First of all, if people spend some time to know more about ``religions``, they would realise they have been taken for a ride all these years.. Especially this ``arab imperialist cult`` is started by a ``smart arab dude`` who had lots of ``fun`` in his later years..
It is better to ``defang`` all these religions.. Christianity has been defangued for a few centuries and Hinduism is work in progress (maybe midway), and it just got started for this other ``cult``.. So don`t worry..
cool down dude.. i was talking about the ``poor management decision`` of a 15 member company to lose a talented employee. Ideally it should not matter if she sleeps with a dog / man / another female.. How does that going to affect her work?.
I don`t like to get involved with ``religious fights`` though i do get dragged all the times.. First of all, if people spend some time to know more about ``religions``, they would realise they have been taken for a ride all these years.. Especially this ``arab imperialist cult`` is started by a ``smart arab dude`` who had lots of ``fun`` in his later years..
It is better to ``defang`` all these religions.. Christianity has been defangued for a few centuries and Hinduism is work in progress (maybe midway), and it just got started for this other ``cult``.. So don`t worry..
#33 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 9:20:22 am
Hi,
Do you notice the author also is from the south!
For people from regions that never really suffered muslim atrocities, this is typical ``hoiler than thou`` reaction.
generally by inference meaning to say ..``look there is a BAD hindu..i am not like him..i am balanced..`` etc.
sort of ``i am ok you are not`` stuff.
Just wait till you feel the heat some day.
that will be the true test of secular goodness!
jayen
Do you notice the author also is from the south!
For people from regions that never really suffered muslim atrocities, this is typical ``hoiler than thou`` reaction.
generally by inference meaning to say ..``look there is a BAD hindu..i am not like him..i am balanced..`` etc.
sort of ``i am ok you are not`` stuff.
Just wait till you feel the heat some day.
that will be the true test of secular goodness!
jayen
#32 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 9:14:18 am
post 31:-
I mostly find people from the south of india talking like this.
the south was less exposed to muslim onslaught. Though the sack of vijaynagar can be treated as the sack of a very prosperous south indian city. (Hampi was its rich capital?).
The truth is, companies dont ``fall`` due to such reasons.
individuals are sacked unfairly and ``not hired`` fairly and yet the companies prosper!
this is not a ``morals`` but a ``markets`` game.
One ranjana down, 10 will be available and ``proper`` ones!
so dont moralise here..simply because you would be off target!
There is no doubt this happens on a far wider scale in pakiland! (ofcourse you would be silent on that one wouldnt you?)..
How many paki companies ``flounder`` on that ``morla`` issue?
come on wise up baba!
The mughals ruled india THAT PRECISE WAY!
IF they floundered it was not due to morals..but due to wrong social and military policies and simply due to arrogance and ``head in sand`` business.
jayen
I mostly find people from the south of india talking like this.
the south was less exposed to muslim onslaught. Though the sack of vijaynagar can be treated as the sack of a very prosperous south indian city. (Hampi was its rich capital?).
The truth is, companies dont ``fall`` due to such reasons.
individuals are sacked unfairly and ``not hired`` fairly and yet the companies prosper!
this is not a ``morals`` but a ``markets`` game.
One ranjana down, 10 will be available and ``proper`` ones!
so dont moralise here..simply because you would be off target!
There is no doubt this happens on a far wider scale in pakiland! (ofcourse you would be silent on that one wouldnt you?)..
How many paki companies ``flounder`` on that ``morla`` issue?
come on wise up baba!
The mughals ruled india THAT PRECISE WAY!
IF they floundered it was not due to morals..but due to wrong social and military policies and simply due to arrogance and ``head in sand`` business.
jayen
#31 Posted by masanamuthu on February 28, 2006 9:06:42 am
I think in order to get published in chowk, it had to be a Hindu girl and a Muslim boy I think.. :-))
Anyhow, it is a nice read.. First, since the girl retains her name, it implies she married into a liberal family.. Usually the girls get names like Ayesha, Safiyah etc.. (wives of old Mo).. and pushed into the purdah.. My brahmin neighbor got ``Ayesha`` and the ``purdah``.. :-))
Well.. If this happened in real life, then that company won`t survive.. Who`d lose a talented employee based on who she married. how does that matter if she married out of religion / out of caste??
Anyhow, it is a nice read.. First, since the girl retains her name, it implies she married into a liberal family.. Usually the girls get names like Ayesha, Safiyah etc.. (wives of old Mo).. and pushed into the purdah.. My brahmin neighbor got ``Ayesha`` and the ``purdah``.. :-))
Well.. If this happened in real life, then that company won`t survive.. Who`d lose a talented employee based on who she married. how does that matter if she married out of religion / out of caste??
#30 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 8:50:58 am
Hi,
My post number 29 is a sort of ``testing of the water``.
If this gets ``edited``....``blocked``..and so on, i will have to judge chowk in different light.
It will then turn out to ``one of many`` islamic sites full of vitriol for hindus and christians..
with posts quoting heavily from the koran how despicable ``hindu baniyas are`` and so on and so forth..
Reflecting generally a closed world of mutual back scratchers glorifying their past and ``looking down`` on the rest of the world.
It is precisely this head in sand attittude that has led to the present status of the islamic world.
No questioning of anything, mere robotic glorifying of a past already 1000 years gone!
Hindus were like this when qassim arrived in Sindh!
We all know what happened.
A 1000 YEAR eclipse is for all to see and some to enjoy vicarously.
Well! Each dog has his day i guess, the hindus had theirs for a loong time in pre-history..the egyptians had it good for 4000 years before Caesar and cleopatra..
The muslims had it until the sack of Baghdad under HALAKU.
IT is down hill since then.
Will they have a renaissance? Like hindus had under dayanand saraswati, ram mohan roy, c.v.raman, vivekananda?
Questions..questions..questions..but are the muslims ready to question in the first place?
I had a muslim friend in singapoe who gave me a Koran to read.
There was a Dawa something site where i was supposed to ask questions if any.
he himself shied away from any questions on the koran saying ``we cannot interpret or question it. period``!
The dawa guys too said the same thing to my astonishment!
At one place the prophet was angry that his followers insisted on feasting ``because the jews do so`` ..(i am relying on memory here..so dont go ...) the prophet got angry with them and said ``we shall fast if they feast!``
I was quite struck how a person supposed to have been a visionary could be so ``reactionary``?
The dawa guys were silent on that one.
Also there seemed to be many instructions on how to kill all able fighting males of the adversary and how to ``divide loot``!!
Wow a religion instruction ``division of loot``?
I was taken aback to say the least.
No doubt the MANU-SMRITI has many such strange instructions..it was a wild world back then..BUT NO HINDU STICKS to it anymore. (some guys pay lip service to it for political reasons though).
But muslims? will they ever question?
As long as they arrogantly keep saying ``our beliefs are above questioning``..etc, no reform is possible, and no democracy is also possible, because the right to be question is inherent in a democratic dispensation.
jayen
My post number 29 is a sort of ``testing of the water``.
If this gets ``edited``....``blocked``..and so on, i will have to judge chowk in different light.
It will then turn out to ``one of many`` islamic sites full of vitriol for hindus and christians..
with posts quoting heavily from the koran how despicable ``hindu baniyas are`` and so on and so forth..
Reflecting generally a closed world of mutual back scratchers glorifying their past and ``looking down`` on the rest of the world.
It is precisely this head in sand attittude that has led to the present status of the islamic world.
No questioning of anything, mere robotic glorifying of a past already 1000 years gone!
Hindus were like this when qassim arrived in Sindh!
We all know what happened.
A 1000 YEAR eclipse is for all to see and some to enjoy vicarously.
Well! Each dog has his day i guess, the hindus had theirs for a loong time in pre-history..the egyptians had it good for 4000 years before Caesar and cleopatra..
The muslims had it until the sack of Baghdad under HALAKU.
IT is down hill since then.
Will they have a renaissance? Like hindus had under dayanand saraswati, ram mohan roy, c.v.raman, vivekananda?
Questions..questions..questions..but are the muslims ready to question in the first place?
I had a muslim friend in singapoe who gave me a Koran to read.
There was a Dawa something site where i was supposed to ask questions if any.
he himself shied away from any questions on the koran saying ``we cannot interpret or question it. period``!
The dawa guys too said the same thing to my astonishment!
At one place the prophet was angry that his followers insisted on feasting ``because the jews do so`` ..(i am relying on memory here..so dont go ...) the prophet got angry with them and said ``we shall fast if they feast!``
I was quite struck how a person supposed to have been a visionary could be so ``reactionary``?
The dawa guys were silent on that one.
Also there seemed to be many instructions on how to kill all able fighting males of the adversary and how to ``divide loot``!!
Wow a religion instruction ``division of loot``?
I was taken aback to say the least.
No doubt the MANU-SMRITI has many such strange instructions..it was a wild world back then..BUT NO HINDU STICKS to it anymore. (some guys pay lip service to it for political reasons though).
But muslims? will they ever question?
As long as they arrogantly keep saying ``our beliefs are above questioning``..etc, no reform is possible, and no democracy is also possible, because the right to be question is inherent in a democratic dispensation.
jayen
#29 Posted by jay1 on February 28, 2006 8:40:53 am
Hi all,
Iam new to chowk, and most muslims on this site are going to find my writing bitter!
But NOWHERE AM I INSULTING THE RELIGION ITSELF.
IT IS THE RABID PRACTITIONERS I AM TALKING ABOUT.
to keep facts straight..
1) - Is it NOT the truth that recruitment in the gulf in key positions is always RESERVED for MUSLIMS?
How come no one is protesting? And we find a LOT of fashionable secular whining when one muslim woman (i cannot believe it otherwise. one has to CONVERT to marry a muslim) got rejected on account of religion?
I mean SECULAR guys too have to be balanced dont they?
2) - The same muslims who want secular opportunities in secular countries, still WANT SEPARATE LAWS for themselves. WHY? HAVE THEY DROPPED FROM HEAVEN?
Why are the secularist apologists SILENT here?
3) - OK so one does get recruited..
next we find him / her asking for ``prayer time off`` god knows how many times a day...
next will come DEMANDS of ``NOT waering revealing uniforms``...etc!
next will come..complaints ``about no respect for my religion``..
next will come umpteen problems out of percieved insults..
the long lists of possible ``nexts`` is enough to put off people from recruiting muslims.
4) - Muslims are known to vicious when they ``feel`` let down.
who knows when a ``let down`` employee might sabotage things anytime?
After all in well of singapore..a respectable man turned out to be the mastermind of a plan to bomb the singapore underground metro..and his reasons?
SINGAPORE FOREIGN POLICY IS ANTI MUSLIM!!!
Wow at THIS RATE. which fool would hire muslims?
Jayen
Iam new to chowk, and most muslims on this site are going to find my writing bitter!
But NOWHERE AM I INSULTING THE RELIGION ITSELF.
IT IS THE RABID PRACTITIONERS I AM TALKING ABOUT.
to keep facts straight..
1) - Is it NOT the truth that recruitment in the gulf in key positions is always RESERVED for MUSLIMS?
How come no one is protesting? And we find a LOT of fashionable secular whining when one muslim woman (i cannot believe it otherwise. one has to CONVERT to marry a muslim) got rejected on account of religion?
I mean SECULAR guys too have to be balanced dont they?
2) - The same muslims who want secular opportunities in secular countries, still WANT SEPARATE LAWS for themselves. WHY? HAVE THEY DROPPED FROM HEAVEN?
Why are the secularist apologists SILENT here?
3) - OK so one does get recruited..
next we find him / her asking for ``prayer time off`` god knows how many times a day...
next will come DEMANDS of ``NOT waering revealing uniforms``...etc!
next will come..complaints ``about no respect for my religion``..
next will come umpteen problems out of percieved insults..
the long lists of possible ``nexts`` is enough to put off people from recruiting muslims.
4) - Muslims are known to vicious when they ``feel`` let down.
who knows when a ``let down`` employee might sabotage things anytime?
After all in well of singapore..a respectable man turned out to be the mastermind of a plan to bomb the singapore underground metro..and his reasons?
SINGAPORE FOREIGN POLICY IS ANTI MUSLIM!!!
Wow at THIS RATE. which fool would hire muslims?
Jayen
#28 Posted by swarrier on February 28, 2006 7:16:17 am
Re: # 26
Rajesh
Thanks for the knowledge worker bit. It`s a good story but I find the interview situation phony. I could be entirely wrong but I`ve never seen HR sit in on a technical interview (again I`m not an IT person). They prefer to do their bit alone.
Rajesh
Thanks for the knowledge worker bit. It`s a good story but I find the interview situation phony. I could be entirely wrong but I`ve never seen HR sit in on a technical interview (again I`m not an IT person). They prefer to do their bit alone.
#27 Posted by rajesh_shankara on February 27, 2006 8:37:05 pm
Re: # 24
Zahra, greatly appreciate the interest and effort. If your friend attended five marriages and in three cases, the Muslim boys had to look elsewhere, it appears to bolster Rohit`s argument. The story (it is pure fiction but I believe the premise is valid) is typical of how arguments happen - based on perception (shit I saw three burkha clad women in the market today. Ten years back I would see three in the whole year. These guys are taking over the whole place man) which is often more valid than cold statistics.
Zahra, greatly appreciate the interest and effort. If your friend attended five marriages and in three cases, the Muslim boys had to look elsewhere, it appears to bolster Rohit`s argument. The story (it is pure fiction but I believe the premise is valid) is typical of how arguments happen - based on perception (shit I saw three burkha clad women in the market today. Ten years back I would see three in the whole year. These guys are taking over the whole place man) which is often more valid than cold statistics.
#26 Posted by rajesh_shankara on February 27, 2006 8:26:13 pm
SWarrier,
A banker who joins an IT company to help them design better products continues to be a knowledge worker even though he is not technical.
Soysauce, Dina - The point I wanted to make was -
1.Rohit is willing to take a stand. He is willing to imperil his project deliveries (shoot himself in the leg) rather than hire Ranjana and hate sitting next to her each day.
2.The narrating character is weak and selfish. He sees injustice done but is not willing to jeopardize his good life. This is the case of moderates everywhere - they are selfish, not secular, disinterested not dispassionate
3.The narrating character believes even institutions are communalised. He believes nothing will come out of taking on the organisation.
A banker who joins an IT company to help them design better products continues to be a knowledge worker even though he is not technical.
Soysauce, Dina - The point I wanted to make was -
1.Rohit is willing to take a stand. He is willing to imperil his project deliveries (shoot himself in the leg) rather than hire Ranjana and hate sitting next to her each day.
2.The narrating character is weak and selfish. He sees injustice done but is not willing to jeopardize his good life. This is the case of moderates everywhere - they are selfish, not secular, disinterested not dispassionate
3.The narrating character believes even institutions are communalised. He believes nothing will come out of taking on the organisation.
#25 Posted by ZahraJ on February 27, 2006 8:09:53 pm
Addendum to my previous post by the Indian friend -
[I forgot to add a comment that I read in an article on Indian Muslims. The Muslims of India are following the pattern of US African Americans, young religious and politically active are incarcerated for various unexplainable crimes, many lured into the billion $+ BOLLYWOOD film industry having corrupt reputation and gang ties, music vidoes and rest in the countless news andcable media companies.
Few muslims who succeed in career and education either leave(Muslim Indian Expats In Gulf ,Europe and US ), or marry prominent Hindu and get high posts within political or business positions and those coming from families of wealthy landlords or Nawaab just continue taking care of their properties in a subliminal non ambitious way. But there are still some famous Indian Muslims like A.R Rahman, Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi, Wipro`s Azim Premji, Azharuddin, Sania Mirza or Javed Akhter who humbly point to their religious convictions for their successes.
There are hopes that the current boom in economy might be a blessing for all. I hope and wish the same for Indian Muslims as after all they gave up Pakistan for Bharat and deserve justifiable recognition as Indians. ]
[I forgot to add a comment that I read in an article on Indian Muslims. The Muslims of India are following the pattern of US African Americans, young religious and politically active are incarcerated for various unexplainable crimes, many lured into the billion $+ BOLLYWOOD film industry having corrupt reputation and gang ties, music vidoes and rest in the countless news andcable media companies.
Few muslims who succeed in career and education either leave(Muslim Indian Expats In Gulf ,Europe and US ), or marry prominent Hindu and get high posts within political or business positions and those coming from families of wealthy landlords or Nawaab just continue taking care of their properties in a subliminal non ambitious way. But there are still some famous Indian Muslims like A.R Rahman, Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi, Wipro`s Azim Premji, Azharuddin, Sania Mirza or Javed Akhter who humbly point to their religious convictions for their successes.
There are hopes that the current boom in economy might be a blessing for all. I hope and wish the same for Indian Muslims as after all they gave up Pakistan for Bharat and deserve justifiable recognition as Indians. ]
#24 Posted by ZahraJ on February 27, 2006 7:58:00 pm
Rajesh,
I forwarded your article to a few Indian Muslim friends. One of them responded with her perspectives. Being an active woman in her community and a working professional in the US, she has her observations that I decided to post over here. Hope you will appreciate my extra effort :)
[Thanks for the interesting read. Having spent 18 days in Nov2005 in Delhi, Lucknow, Agra and Aligarh I must say, things have changed. I was there for five weddings - two of them were between Hindu girl and Muslim boy and Muslim boy and Arab girl. Three were between like minded similar families. The interracial marraiges, believe it or not, were between grand kids of high ranking govt. officials and between upper class rich business families. I do agree somewhat with the sentiments expressed in this article though in reality this is not the case.
Having close ties with Aligarh Muslim Univ and being part of the most recent Jahangirabad Institute of technology, JIT, I can say there is definite lack of ``fire in the belly`` amongst Muslims of India due to this presumption of job bias against Muslims in the work force. I know as a student of premedical Biochemistry I was selected from 700 applicants and was amongst the 6 female students in a batch of 40 students. Out of the six females, 4 were hindus and the other were muslims besides myself who got selection through source (daughter of DIG police and ex Alig). The segregated women`s college had 90-10 ratio of Muslims and Hindus. Fee and expenses were minimal and many were on stipends and there was open selection for Muslim applicants. With all this, there were always more applicants from other faiths than Islam and yet we complain there are no opportunities for Muslims in India.
Since 1990, most of the successful graduates of AMU have moved to the UAE and the gulf countries because pay scale and standard of living is much much better. I obviously speak for the UP side but in places like Banglore and Hyderabad, its very different where Muslims are very successfully employed or own business withouit much bias. But if one generalizes the whole Muslim population, obviously the most poor and impoverished state of bihar with so many Muslims need to be added in and that distorts the whole statistics. Add in the Gujarati Muslims and some from Punjab then figures distort further in terms of economic and academic levels.
So i would say, these articles and stories are good to read and give a perspective but they do not apply toward the whole nation. Currently there is a rise amongs marraiges between Muslim girls and Hindu boys. Reason, freedom of career/life, most are non practicing themselves they care less, third want to be secular and promote harmony at the cost of family disharmony.
Thanks for forwarding the article. Read the story of the 50+ Indian lady pretty inspirational. Chowk has grown, last time I visited was probably in 2000. Lots of articles now.]
I forwarded your article to a few Indian Muslim friends. One of them responded with her perspectives. Being an active woman in her community and a working professional in the US, she has her observations that I decided to post over here. Hope you will appreciate my extra effort :)
[Thanks for the interesting read. Having spent 18 days in Nov2005 in Delhi, Lucknow, Agra and Aligarh I must say, things have changed. I was there for five weddings - two of them were between Hindu girl and Muslim boy and Muslim boy and Arab girl. Three were between like minded similar families. The interracial marraiges, believe it or not, were between grand kids of high ranking govt. officials and between upper class rich business families. I do agree somewhat with the sentiments expressed in this article though in reality this is not the case.
Having close ties with Aligarh Muslim Univ and being part of the most recent Jahangirabad Institute of technology, JIT, I can say there is definite lack of ``fire in the belly`` amongst Muslims of India due to this presumption of job bias against Muslims in the work force. I know as a student of premedical Biochemistry I was selected from 700 applicants and was amongst the 6 female students in a batch of 40 students. Out of the six females, 4 were hindus and the other were muslims besides myself who got selection through source (daughter of DIG police and ex Alig). The segregated women`s college had 90-10 ratio of Muslims and Hindus. Fee and expenses were minimal and many were on stipends and there was open selection for Muslim applicants. With all this, there were always more applicants from other faiths than Islam and yet we complain there are no opportunities for Muslims in India.
Since 1990, most of the successful graduates of AMU have moved to the UAE and the gulf countries because pay scale and standard of living is much much better. I obviously speak for the UP side but in places like Banglore and Hyderabad, its very different where Muslims are very successfully employed or own business withouit much bias. But if one generalizes the whole Muslim population, obviously the most poor and impoverished state of bihar with so many Muslims need to be added in and that distorts the whole statistics. Add in the Gujarati Muslims and some from Punjab then figures distort further in terms of economic and academic levels.
So i would say, these articles and stories are good to read and give a perspective but they do not apply toward the whole nation. Currently there is a rise amongs marraiges between Muslim girls and Hindu boys. Reason, freedom of career/life, most are non practicing themselves they care less, third want to be secular and promote harmony at the cost of family disharmony.
Thanks for forwarding the article. Read the story of the 50+ Indian lady pretty inspirational. Chowk has grown, last time I visited was probably in 2000. Lots of articles now.]
#23 Posted by ZahraJ on February 27, 2006 4:47:57 pm
Re: # 13
That`s sho shweet.
The intent was to highlight the fact that women in agressive careers have agressive personalities - high testosterone level. They cannot get along with an average man. These women need an above average(bright), mentally stable and physically alert handsome creation of God to complement the dangerously high level of testosterone :) The average kittens won`t be able to stand that energy level. Did you get it? Ab Samajh Ayee Ya Naheen? Khabardaar Ayinda Sae Zyada Chalak Ban`nae Kee Nakam Koshish Kee!!! Your comprehension is disappointing. My remark had no reference to the PMS you have been experiencing on Chowk. I hope you feel better. You can take some herbs to help your symptoms. Best Wishes.
That`s sho shweet.
The intent was to highlight the fact that women in agressive careers have agressive personalities - high testosterone level. They cannot get along with an average man. These women need an above average(bright), mentally stable and physically alert handsome creation of God to complement the dangerously high level of testosterone :) The average kittens won`t be able to stand that energy level. Did you get it? Ab Samajh Ayee Ya Naheen? Khabardaar Ayinda Sae Zyada Chalak Ban`nae Kee Nakam Koshish Kee!!! Your comprehension is disappointing. My remark had no reference to the PMS you have been experiencing on Chowk. I hope you feel better. You can take some herbs to help your symptoms. Best Wishes.
#22 Posted by Saminasha on February 27, 2006 3:31:08 pm
February 27, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Graduates Versus Oligarchs
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Ben Bernanke`s maiden Congressional testimony as chairman of the Federal Reserve was, everyone agrees, superb. He didn`t put a foot wrong on monetary or fiscal policy.
But Mr. Bernanke did stumble at one point. Responding to a question from Representative Barney Frank about income inequality, he declared that ``the most important factor`` in rising inequality ``is the rising skill premium, the increased return to education.``
That`s a fundamental misreading of what`s happening to American society. What we`re seeing isn`t the rise of a fairly broad class of knowledge workers. Instead, we`re seeing the rise of a narrow oligarchy: income and wealth are becoming increasingly concentrated in the hands of a small, privileged elite.
I think of Mr. Bernanke`s position, which one hears all the time, as the 80-20 fallacy. It`s the notion that the winners in our increasingly unequal society are a fairly large group — that the 20 percent or so of American workers who have the skills to take advantage of new technology and globalization are pulling away from the 80 percent who don`t have these skills.
The truth is quite different. Highly educated workers have done better than those with less education, but a college degree has hardly been a ticket to big income gains. The 2006 Economic Report of the President tells us that the real earnings of college graduates actually fell more than 5 percent between 2000 and 2004. Over the longer stretch from 1975 to 2004 the average earnings of college graduates rose, but by less than 1 percent per year.
So who are the winners from rising inequality? It`s not the top 20 percent, or even the top 10 percent. The big gains have gone to a much smaller, much richer group than that.
A new research paper by Ian Dew-Becker and Robert Gordon of Northwestern University, ``Where Did the Productivity Growth Go?,`` gives the details. Between 1972 and 2001 the wage and salary income of Americans at the 90th percentile of the income distribution rose only 34 percent, or about 1 percent per year. So being in the top 10 percent of the income distribution, like being a college graduate, wasn`t a ticket to big income gains.
But income at the 99th percentile rose 87 percent; income at the 99.9th percentile rose 181 percent; and income at the 99.99th percentile rose 497 percent. No, that`s not a misprint.
Just to give you a sense of who we`re talking about: the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that this year the 99th percentile will correspond to an income of $402,306, and the 99.9th percentile to an income of $1,672,726. The center doesn`t give a number for the 99.99th percentile, but it`s probably well over $6 million a year.
Why would someone as smart and well informed as Mr. Bernanke get the nature of growing inequality wrong? Because the fallacy he fell into tends to dominate polite discussion about income trends, not because it`s true, but because it`s comforting. The notion that it`s all about returns to education suggests that nobody is to blame for rising inequality, that it`s just a case of supply and demand at work. And it also suggests that the way to mitigate inequality is to improve our educational system — and better education is a value to which just about every politician in America pays at least lip service.
The idea that we have a rising oligarchy is much more disturbing. It suggests that the growth of inequality may have as much to do with power relations as it does with market forces. Unfortunately, that`s the real story.
Should we be worried about the increasingly oligarchic nature of American society? Yes, and not just because a rising economic tide has failed to lift most boats. Both history and modern experience tell us that highly unequal societies also tend to be highly corrupt. There`s an arrow of causation that runs from diverging income trends to Jack Abramoff and the K Street project.
And I`m with Alan Greenspan, who — surprisingly, given his libertarian roots — has repeatedly warned that growing inequality poses a threat to ``democratic society.``
It may take some time before we muster the political will to counter that threat. But the first step toward doing something about inequality is to abandon the 80-20 fallacy. It`s time to face up to the fact that rising inequality is driven by the giant income gains of a tiny elite, not the modest gains of college graduates.
Op-Ed Columnist
Graduates Versus Oligarchs
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Ben Bernanke`s maiden Congressional testimony as chairman of the Federal Reserve was, everyone agrees, superb. He didn`t put a foot wrong on monetary or fiscal policy.
But Mr. Bernanke did stumble at one point. Responding to a question from Representative Barney Frank about income inequality, he declared that ``the most important factor`` in rising inequality ``is the rising skill premium, the increased return to education.``
That`s a fundamental misreading of what`s happening to American society. What we`re seeing isn`t the rise of a fairly broad class of knowledge workers. Instead, we`re seeing the rise of a narrow oligarchy: income and wealth are becoming increasingly concentrated in the hands of a small, privileged elite.
I think of Mr. Bernanke`s position, which one hears all the time, as the 80-20 fallacy. It`s the notion that the winners in our increasingly unequal society are a fairly large group — that the 20 percent or so of American workers who have the skills to take advantage of new technology and globalization are pulling away from the 80 percent who don`t have these skills.
The truth is quite different. Highly educated workers have done better than those with less education, but a college degree has hardly been a ticket to big income gains. The 2006 Economic Report of the President tells us that the real earnings of college graduates actually fell more than 5 percent between 2000 and 2004. Over the longer stretch from 1975 to 2004 the average earnings of college graduates rose, but by less than 1 percent per year.
So who are the winners from rising inequality? It`s not the top 20 percent, or even the top 10 percent. The big gains have gone to a much smaller, much richer group than that.
A new research paper by Ian Dew-Becker and Robert Gordon of Northwestern University, ``Where Did the Productivity Growth Go?,`` gives the details. Between 1972 and 2001 the wage and salary income of Americans at the 90th percentile of the income distribution rose only 34 percent, or about 1 percent per year. So being in the top 10 percent of the income distribution, like being a college graduate, wasn`t a ticket to big income gains.
But income at the 99th percentile rose 87 percent; income at the 99.9th percentile rose 181 percent; and income at the 99.99th percentile rose 497 percent. No, that`s not a misprint.
Just to give you a sense of who we`re talking about: the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that this year the 99th percentile will correspond to an income of $402,306, and the 99.9th percentile to an income of $1,672,726. The center doesn`t give a number for the 99.99th percentile, but it`s probably well over $6 million a year.
Why would someone as smart and well informed as Mr. Bernanke get the nature of growing inequality wrong? Because the fallacy he fell into tends to dominate polite discussion about income trends, not because it`s true, but because it`s comforting. The notion that it`s all about returns to education suggests that nobody is to blame for rising inequality, that it`s just a case of supply and demand at work. And it also suggests that the way to mitigate inequality is to improve our educational system — and better education is a value to which just about every politician in America pays at least lip service.
The idea that we have a rising oligarchy is much more disturbing. It suggests that the growth of inequality may have as much to do with power relations as it does with market forces. Unfortunately, that`s the real story.
Should we be worried about the increasingly oligarchic nature of American society? Yes, and not just because a rising economic tide has failed to lift most boats. Both history and modern experience tell us that highly unequal societies also tend to be highly corrupt. There`s an arrow of causation that runs from diverging income trends to Jack Abramoff and the K Street project.
And I`m with Alan Greenspan, who — surprisingly, given his libertarian roots — has repeatedly warned that growing inequality poses a threat to ``democratic society.``
It may take some time before we muster the political will to counter that threat. But the first step toward doing something about inequality is to abandon the 80-20 fallacy. It`s time to face up to the fact that rising inequality is driven by the giant income gains of a tiny elite, not the modest gains of college graduates.
#21 Posted by DinaStrange on February 27, 2006 3:11:20 pm
i thought the story was a bit exaggerated...the only thing i could relate is that education of muslim girl...because my own mother didn`t care much of the last, i suffer feeling not equal to a man...so yeah..the point of the story is great...the way he tells it...not so great
otherwise its` ok....
otherwise its` ok....
#20 Posted by soysauce on February 27, 2006 10:23:07 am
This is very nicely narrated story. You have a fluid writing style that keeps the reader engaged.
There is a subtext here that i`m missing out - Rohit`s arguments indeed make sense and I too am left wondering why all this is a bad thing and, more importantly, why a small company that has to hire good employees would shoot itself in the foot over abstract sociological arguments. This part did not quite gel for me.
In sum, the parts are well wrought but the sum is wanting.
There is a subtext here that i`m missing out - Rohit`s arguments indeed make sense and I too am left wondering why all this is a bad thing and, more importantly, why a small company that has to hire good employees would shoot itself in the foot over abstract sociological arguments. This part did not quite gel for me.
In sum, the parts are well wrought but the sum is wanting.
#19 Posted by swarrier on February 27, 2006 9:46:47 am
Rajesh
I don`t understand some things in this story, perhaps I`m not quite up on IT terms. What exactly is a, ``knowledge worker``? How can a ``knowledge worker`` have a non-technical mind? Is it customary for HR people to sit in on a technical interview? The same question applies to Sales , Payments what ever??
Would a Project Manager be part of a specific team? I`m assuming it`s the same Rohit who is part of the Payments team?
I don`t understand some things in this story, perhaps I`m not quite up on IT terms. What exactly is a, ``knowledge worker``? How can a ``knowledge worker`` have a non-technical mind? Is it customary for HR people to sit in on a technical interview? The same question applies to Sales , Payments what ever??
Would a Project Manager be part of a specific team? I`m assuming it`s the same Rohit who is part of the Payments team?
#18 Posted by KaalChakra on February 27, 2006 5:32:12 am
``what do little communities wish to preserve themselves for?``
Why indeed?
Why indeed?
#17 Posted by sheelajaywant on February 27, 2006 3:09:12 am
My maama brought home to his village a Portuguese bride in the 1940s when Portugal still `owned` Goa and piped water and electricity were many decades away. My greatgrandmother thought if she could be brave enough to leave her people and come here, the Family should accept her as the eldest bahu, never mind what others said. And she became the Family`s favourite Maami. Ever since, mixed marriages have been the norm amongst all my cousins. I don`t think any of us have become less Indian or less Hindu in the bargain. I do believe marriages help mingling, not just of the genes, but of cultures. Civilizations have been wiped out and may still get lost in times to come, what do little communities wish to preserve themselves for? You`ve given us a good read. Thanks.
#16 Posted by KaalChakra on February 26, 2006 11:37:33 pm
rajesh
Most stories do a poor job of articulating defensible views on conflicted matters.
I suspect I have an opinion exactly opposite of what you, anjali and most others here have. To aid clarity, could you please summarize your stand/views in a couple of sentences? Many thanks for the favor.
Most stories do a poor job of articulating defensible views on conflicted matters.
I suspect I have an opinion exactly opposite of what you, anjali and most others here have. To aid clarity, could you please summarize your stand/views in a couple of sentences? Many thanks for the favor.
#15 Posted by rajesh_shankara on February 26, 2006 11:19:49 pm
Re: # 8
This is not a true story but does contain elements I have encountered over the years. I call it the Sunil Shetty theory. He is from a conservative community of Bunts. He married a Muslim - a very gracious lady called Mana whose father is the eminent city father - Mr.Kadri and whose mother Vipula - I suspect - is Hindu. The character of Rohit is a combination of many people I know - who are otherwise wonderful people except when it comes to Muslims and women. Lastly, it was important that Adrian be Christian and that Ranjana be average. No Rohit could defend his case in any court if needed. I am ashamed to admit I would indeed be stricken if this were to happen in real life to me.
This is not a true story but does contain elements I have encountered over the years. I call it the Sunil Shetty theory. He is from a conservative community of Bunts. He married a Muslim - a very gracious lady called Mana whose father is the eminent city father - Mr.Kadri and whose mother Vipula - I suspect - is Hindu. The character of Rohit is a combination of many people I know - who are otherwise wonderful people except when it comes to Muslims and women. Lastly, it was important that Adrian be Christian and that Ranjana be average. No Rohit could defend his case in any court if needed. I am ashamed to admit I would indeed be stricken if this were to happen in real life to me.
#14 Posted by anjalipurohit on February 26, 2006 11:02:20 pm
Sad but true.
Not only in employment but even in educational institutions this prejudice does exist.
Muslims would surely send more girls to serious professional education and not `cooking and mehendi` classes if they felt safe in society today. Even in one of the `elite` schools of Bombay I have known of instances of boys being teased and harassed because of their faith.
We cannot first terrorise a community and then say that they have a ghetto mentality. Can we forget that the first ones to get targetted in a communal riot were those who had chosen to join the mainstream and live in mixed localities?
But why don`t we remember and repeat the stories of many who braved fanatical forces to protect the innocent?
Not only in employment but even in educational institutions this prejudice does exist.
Muslims would surely send more girls to serious professional education and not `cooking and mehendi` classes if they felt safe in society today. Even in one of the `elite` schools of Bombay I have known of instances of boys being teased and harassed because of their faith.
We cannot first terrorise a community and then say that they have a ghetto mentality. Can we forget that the first ones to get targetted in a communal riot were those who had chosen to join the mainstream and live in mixed localities?
But why don`t we remember and repeat the stories of many who braved fanatical forces to protect the innocent?
#13 Posted by harimau on February 26, 2006 10:11:16 pm
Ref ZahraJ #9
[Just recently, I heard an interesting comment by this Indian lady who is heading the Equities Division at one of the Wall Street financial institutions, she emphasized that women in finance and consulting should marry men who can tolerate their highs and lows. An average man cannot withstand that kind of hyper personality.]
ALL men, sweetheart, have learnt to put up with PMS.
[Just recently, I heard an interesting comment by this Indian lady who is heading the Equities Division at one of the Wall Street financial institutions, she emphasized that women in finance and consulting should marry men who can tolerate their highs and lows. An average man cannot withstand that kind of hyper personality.]
ALL men, sweetheart, have learnt to put up with PMS.
#12 Posted by kalihawa on February 26, 2006 7:58:49 pm
Re: # 3
I don`t think you have seriously read my comment. I have no thinking problem. It is the reflex response that is the problem. I don’t believe in ghosts that doesn’t mean I can roam around graves in the dead of night without fear. Convincing subconscious is another matter.
I don`t think you have seriously read my comment. I have no thinking problem. It is the reflex response that is the problem. I don’t believe in ghosts that doesn’t mean I can roam around graves in the dead of night without fear. Convincing subconscious is another matter.
#11 Posted by Saminasha on February 26, 2006 7:43:20 pm
Is anyone pointing out that rejecting an applicant because of their ethnicity/race/gender/sexual/political orientation or that of their spouse is discrimination?
In most democracies, anyway.
In most democracies, anyway.
#10 Posted by Saminasha on February 26, 2006 7:40:26 pm
Re: 7
From:
http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm
Interracial Marriages
· In 1960 there were about 150,000 interracial married couples(1) in the United States. This number grew rapidly to more than 1.0 million in 1998. In 2000, they numbered 1.46 million.
· Black/white interracial married couples have increased seven-fold since 1960, from 51,000 to 363,000 in 2000. As a percentage of all married couples, this type more than tripled during the period. However, black/white marriages, which represented 34% of all interracial marriages (40,491) in 1960, fell to 24.7% of all interracial marriages (1,464,000) in 2000. About 70% of Hispanics also marry outside their group.
· Non-Hispanic blacks and non-Hispanic whites are proportionately least likely to marry outside their groups, and whites who do so are almost three times more likely to marry Asians and American Indians than to marry blacks. Over 93% of whites and blacks marry within their racial groups, in contrast to about 70% of Asians, and less than one-third of American Indians. When minorities marry outside their group, their spouses are usually white.
Notes
1. Interracial married couples refer to marriages in which one spouse reported as white, black, American Indian, Alaskan Native or Asian/Pacific Islander and the other spouse belongs to another of these groups.
From:
http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm
Interracial Marriages
· In 1960 there were about 150,000 interracial married couples(1) in the United States. This number grew rapidly to more than 1.0 million in 1998. In 2000, they numbered 1.46 million.
· Black/white interracial married couples have increased seven-fold since 1960, from 51,000 to 363,000 in 2000. As a percentage of all married couples, this type more than tripled during the period. However, black/white marriages, which represented 34% of all interracial marriages (40,491) in 1960, fell to 24.7% of all interracial marriages (1,464,000) in 2000. About 70% of Hispanics also marry outside their group.
· Non-Hispanic blacks and non-Hispanic whites are proportionately least likely to marry outside their groups, and whites who do so are almost three times more likely to marry Asians and American Indians than to marry blacks. Over 93% of whites and blacks marry within their racial groups, in contrast to about 70% of Asians, and less than one-third of American Indians. When minorities marry outside their group, their spouses are usually white.
Notes
1. Interracial married couples refer to marriages in which one spouse reported as white, black, American Indian, Alaskan Native or Asian/Pacific Islander and the other spouse belongs to another of these groups.
#9 Posted by ZahraJ on February 26, 2006 6:59:11 pm
Re: # 6
[I am all for improving the ugly gene pool of Hindus as long as it involves Muslims giving us their women, not their men scoping our women.]
This is unfair!
I suggest that we switch the tables here. Let the Hindu women marry Muslim guys. I do not understand what these women see in the Muslim guys but that is a personal preference. After meeting with several strong headed hindu women who are aggressive, business minded and result oriented(something I can associate with), I give a lot of credit to their men who support their wives through thick and thin in pursuing demanding careers and balancing personal life. I have not seen that kind of support extended by the muslim men to their muslim wives. I do not want to stereotype muslim men, but there are very few role models.
Just recently, I heard an interesting comment by this Indian lady who is heading the Equities Division at one of the Wall Street financial institutions, she emphasized that women in finance and consulting should marry men who can tolerate their highs and lows. An average man cannot withstand that kind of hyper personality. I was laughing like hell when I heard what I heard. She is damn right.
[I am all for improving the ugly gene pool of Hindus as long as it involves Muslims giving us their women, not their men scoping our women.]
This is unfair!
I suggest that we switch the tables here. Let the Hindu women marry Muslim guys. I do not understand what these women see in the Muslim guys but that is a personal preference. After meeting with several strong headed hindu women who are aggressive, business minded and result oriented(something I can associate with), I give a lot of credit to their men who support their wives through thick and thin in pursuing demanding careers and balancing personal life. I have not seen that kind of support extended by the muslim men to their muslim wives. I do not want to stereotype muslim men, but there are very few role models.
Just recently, I heard an interesting comment by this Indian lady who is heading the Equities Division at one of the Wall Street financial institutions, she emphasized that women in finance and consulting should marry men who can tolerate their highs and lows. An average man cannot withstand that kind of hyper personality. I was laughing like hell when I heard what I heard. She is damn right.
#8 Posted by ZahraJ on February 26, 2006 6:40:04 pm
Rajesh,
This is an interesting story. I am not sure if it is a real life story. I was at a gathering yesterday where I came across quite a few Indian women from Ahmedabad and Allahabad area. There were a number of Hindu women with Muslim last names. I did not put much emphasis on their spouse`s religion. They were confident and definitely capable otherwise they would not have survived on Wall Street.
[I mean, why does she have to go get married to a Shabbir. Yaar, Hum sab Gore, Kelkar were dead or what? This is so,…so frustrating.” ]
I found the above sentiments pretty hilarious. Typical guy`s sentiment. They are no different from any other culture or religion. A Muslim man will feel the same pain and anguish when he hears about the marriage of a Muslim woman with a non-Muslim guy. South Asian men are screwed up by nature. My apologies for being blunt :)
There is something that you have pointed out in your write-up about the situation of Muslim guys and gals in India. I have heard similar stories from other Indian Muslim Women who are in their 50s or so. One lady who is also a close friend shared with me that in her youth the Muslim families in India would not send their daughters to school. The Muslim parents feared that the Hindu women might influence their daughters. My friend who is in her 50s now has an amazing life-story. Her father was a principal at a school, taught science subjects and authored many books. She is married to an Indian Muslim Engineer. The hubby is very laid back whereas she is extremely business minded and entrepreneurial. This woman started her transportation business for handicapped children almost 15 - 20 years ago after encountering a personal life trangedy. At the time, I met her she had only 15-20 school vans. Now, after 10 years, she has over 90 school vans that transport the handicapped children back and forth from their homes to their schools. I have known this lady for a long while now. But just recently she shared with me the key inspiration that motivated her to make the dramatic change in her life.
She came from a large family with a number of doctors. This may sound silly but this is real stuff. One of her sister-in-laws threw a party where the invitation was only extended to the doctors` wives. My friend and one of her sisters were excluded from the list. This really disturbed her. She told herself that she had to work hard and be someone to be better than all of them. And, she made it happen with real hard work and learning on the job. This lady`s business is blooming. Her husband has recently retired from his private sector job in the US, and she is trying to recruit him to work for her. Interestingly, all her aunts and uncles migrated to Pakistan after the partition, but her father chose not to.
One of my pending projects is to write a feature on different phases of her life to inspire other Muslim women who did not come from career oriented backgrounds and were not given an option to pursue a career.
Thank you for an interesting read. Your story made me put some pieces together of many episodes and encounters I have recently had.
This is an interesting story. I am not sure if it is a real life story. I was at a gathering yesterday where I came across quite a few Indian women from Ahmedabad and Allahabad area. There were a number of Hindu women with Muslim last names. I did not put much emphasis on their spouse`s religion. They were confident and definitely capable otherwise they would not have survived on Wall Street.
[I mean, why does she have to go get married to a Shabbir. Yaar, Hum sab Gore, Kelkar were dead or what? This is so,…so frustrating.” ]
I found the above sentiments pretty hilarious. Typical guy`s sentiment. They are no different from any other culture or religion. A Muslim man will feel the same pain and anguish when he hears about the marriage of a Muslim woman with a non-Muslim guy. South Asian men are screwed up by nature. My apologies for being blunt :)
There is something that you have pointed out in your write-up about the situation of Muslim guys and gals in India. I have heard similar stories from other Indian Muslim Women who are in their 50s or so. One lady who is also a close friend shared with me that in her youth the Muslim families in India would not send their daughters to school. The Muslim parents feared that the Hindu women might influence their daughters. My friend who is in her 50s now has an amazing life-story. Her father was a principal at a school, taught science subjects and authored many books. She is married to an Indian Muslim Engineer. The hubby is very laid back whereas she is extremely business minded and entrepreneurial. This woman started her transportation business for handicapped children almost 15 - 20 years ago after encountering a personal life trangedy. At the time, I met her she had only 15-20 school vans. Now, after 10 years, she has over 90 school vans that transport the handicapped children back and forth from their homes to their schools. I have known this lady for a long while now. But just recently she shared with me the key inspiration that motivated her to make the dramatic change in her life.
She came from a large family with a number of doctors. This may sound silly but this is real stuff. One of her sister-in-laws threw a party where the invitation was only extended to the doctors` wives. My friend and one of her sisters were excluded from the list. This really disturbed her. She told herself that she had to work hard and be someone to be better than all of them. And, she made it happen with real hard work and learning on the job. This lady`s business is blooming. Her husband has recently retired from his private sector job in the US, and she is trying to recruit him to work for her. Interestingly, all her aunts and uncles migrated to Pakistan after the partition, but her father chose not to.
One of my pending projects is to write a feature on different phases of her life to inspire other Muslim women who did not come from career oriented backgrounds and were not given an option to pursue a career.
Thank you for an interesting read. Your story made me put some pieces together of many episodes and encounters I have recently had.
#7 Posted by colonel on February 26, 2006 6:01:13 pm
Indian Hindu girls (and boys) who marry christian Whites in US, enjoy celebrity status amongst the NRI community.
Go back in history ; earlier moghal emprors favourite wives were hindu. It was common and customary for the ruling muslim elites to have Hindu wives, perhaps to gain the loyalty of hindu majority. Indeed mother of Empror Jehangir was hindu. Even though we do not see any evidence of hindu elite marrying muslim girls, We could say that, in that era, the intermarriage between faiths at highest rungs was not only common, but encouraged. Within masses however it has been always been a taboo.
I can recall the shock I felt when I learned that a US educated daughter of a friend had married her american colleague , even though he had converted to Islam. The imprints of religious, social and cultural taboos have been deeply ingrained into our psyche. I do not think that most of us can rise above this prejudice and think and act judiciously.
In the US, the interfaith marriages are common between Christian, Jews and Muslims, but marriages between blacks and whites of any faiths are relatively rare and confront similar rejection and silent condemnation from the society at large.
I came to know recently that the Indian Government was collecting the data about the minorities in public service and facing sever resistance from the Army, who did not want to provide this information. Presumeably the representation of muslims in the army is minuscule; every one knows that the other minority ,sikhs, have a far greater share of representation in Armed Forces vis a vis population.
There could be several measures which could be adopted by Indian Policy makers to bring the impoverished muslims into the main stream of the nation. The Muslims could be awarded a quota in jobs and the law makers could make rules to severly penalize the individuals and organizations who discriminate on the basis of religion.
If Ranjana Shabbir Ahmad would have been a US resident and suspected that her marriage to a Muslim played any role in job refusal; a horde of shrewed trial liars would have snacthed the opportunity and easily secured few millions for her in awards and a hefty fee to themselves too.
#6 Posted by stuka on February 26, 2006 3:33:24 pm
``We further learn that there are Hinjus these days with cool names like Adrian instead of the plain old Sunny, Bobby and Fuddy that we meet here in the US.``
Adrian is a Christian Dufus! That is one of the points of the story; difference in perception between Christians marrying Hindu women versus Muslims.
``By marrying Hinju females, these guys will end up improving the ugly Hinju gene pool. The children of these marriages will be less hate filled than the average Hinju interactor that we observe on this website....``
I am all for improving the ugly gene pool of Hindus as long as it involves Muslims giving us their women, not their men scoping our women.
Adrian is a Christian Dufus! That is one of the points of the story; difference in perception between Christians marrying Hindu women versus Muslims.
``By marrying Hinju females, these guys will end up improving the ugly Hinju gene pool. The children of these marriages will be less hate filled than the average Hinju interactor that we observe on this website....``
I am all for improving the ugly gene pool of Hindus as long as it involves Muslims giving us their women, not their men scoping our women.
#5 Posted by insatan on February 26, 2006 1:02:08 pm
For one, the Indian job market is terribily biased against muslims. For eg., only about 2% of UPSC jobs are taken by muslims.
On top of this, the mad mullahs who are generally uneducated themselves dont care a damn for the education or jobs of muslims - men or otherwise.
Given the Indian governments politically forced apathy to this issue, can it be an surprise that Indian muslims caught in a vicious cycle, are socio economically weak too?
On top of this, the mad mullahs who are generally uneducated themselves dont care a damn for the education or jobs of muslims - men or otherwise.
Given the Indian governments politically forced apathy to this issue, can it be an surprise that Indian muslims caught in a vicious cycle, are socio economically weak too?
#4 Posted by ali_1 on February 26, 2006 12:58:10 pm
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#3 Posted by nadeem_sadiq on February 26, 2006 9:58:48 am
Re: # 1
Honestly “I agree” but I reckon if my honesty leads me to think like that, I need to have a look of my so-called “Honesty Platform”. It takes time and not easy to shake off as you mentioned, but
“Chalain Tou Cut Hee Ja’ay Gaa Safar Ahista Ahista”
Honestly “I agree” but I reckon if my honesty leads me to think like that, I need to have a look of my so-called “Honesty Platform”. It takes time and not easy to shake off as you mentioned, but
“Chalain Tou Cut Hee Ja’ay Gaa Safar Ahista Ahista”
#2 Posted by nadeem_sadiq on February 26, 2006 9:54:02 am
A nice portrayal of what, where we are. It indeed has its threads linked with prevailing realities in our societies. Sometimes I wonder, with all this, do we deserve to be called EDUCATED and do we deserve to carry the flags of EQUAL RIGHTS??? I am afraid, my top of head bobs in “NO” as expressions of one of my friend does not match with his words.
#1 Posted by kalihawa on February 26, 2006 6:05:57 am
Honestly I too will get a shock if I heard a girl from my community announce ``Sangeeta Shakir Ahmeb``
But it will be a reflex response and not a rational reaction. Samskar sit deep in our subconscious, it is not easy to shake them off.
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