The Amazing Khatris of Punjab

tahmed at # 155:

Very informative post, as usual.

I think that history of the peoples should always be researched and documented.

On a different note, I was wondering as to what would have happened to the Gujars of Kohistan and Kaghan valley region. When the earthquake struck in October, they would be getting ready for the long migration towards the planes in the south of these valleys. We have not heard on their plight. One story was narrated to me by a cousin working in Kaghan. One group of Gujjars, after losing many members and cattles, continued to hike towards Balakot in the hope of finding relief. Upon the glimpse of the ruined city, many a women simply fainted, not because of the arduous journey stretching for more kms this time, but because of their last hopes crashing. Also, I think Balakot would have been southernmost migrating point for many sub-clans and they would be at a loss walking further south of it.

Some questions and comments

DM

I see Prayanka Chopra often on `Soni Max` these days and always wonderd why she was called `Chopra` instead of `Chopri` as she actually looked to be.

tahmed

Was not Krishn of Bhagwat Gita fame a Gujar as he is called a Gopal or Gaaopal also and how that blakish Gujar (Darwarh perhaps) came to be worshiped as god of Aryans?

Salim

Regarding change of castes after migration: A friend of mine whenever asked about his caste would say jokingly ``I am syed `chouda augustawi```. But it was difficult for Punjabi migrants to conceal their caste as they had migrated enmasse.
A doubt arose about the caste of a person who claimed to be a syed. He brought a witness who said, ``Sir, we know he is for sure a syed``. When asked how he can vouchsafe this, he said, ``Because, Sir, he became syed in our very presence after migration``.

Salim: I knew a Chauhan in primary school and a Rajput in High school. Both families were in the army. The Chauhan boy`s family was probably the only one in town. He got special attention from his class mates, because of Prithvi Raj Chauhan, about whom every kid knew even at that age.

DM Sahib, Thanks for the remark about Caste in the city. I mean there is no central certifying authority to put a stamp of caste on a person. How does anyone go about getting the fruit of the quota system? Gujju, I declare you to be a Choora, now go become a DC somewhere... LOL. I have seen whites in USA, trying to claim 1/8th Native Indian blood for some mysterious reasons.

It is probably easy for Pakistanis to follow where all the towns and areas of the article are located, but I had a difficult time following their placement. I came across the following map on a site for Muhiyals and was surprised to see that they were mostly in Pakistan. The following site also had interesting info about Aroras and Khattri`s Khit-Pitt, Gorkhas and Khakhars being Brahmins and seven Gotras, whatever those things mean.

http://www.mohyal.com/gms/m_history.htm

#168, DM Sahib,
Thanks - apparently a lot of people changed names when they migrated to Pakistan from India, thus explaining the population explosion among Syeds. :)

Salim#166:

I believe that they are both part of the same Rajput tribe. But there are Chauhans/Chohans in other parts of India who belong to OBCs. One has to realise also that these days in India, changing names does not cause a big problem; some lower caste Punjabi goldsmiths now call themselves Kapoors, otoh, some upper caste people are assuming lower caste names to qualify for preferential treatment. Once you leave the village and come to the anonymity of a city, all kinds of options open up.

Thanks Kaura Sahib for # 163: The following is all hearsay, so I do not know the truth. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Maharaja Patiala in 1857, whatever his name was, agreed to help Poorbias like Mangal Pandey`s cohorts and Gujjar soldiers of Company Bahadur, lulled them along for a while to see which way the wind blew and then betrayed them to the British.

While rebels in Ludhiana were just hanged by neck in public, the Patiala rebels were slowly crushed under a steam roller. Maharajah Patiala was declared a Farzand-e-khas of the empress and got a few pounds more than the others for his loyalty.

DM Sahib,
What is the connection or relationship of the Chauhans of Punjab to the Chauhans found in Rajasthan, mostly around Jaipur and Ajmer?

DM Sahib,
Thank you for a very enlightening and interesting explanation of last names and association with castes in Punjab. It`s very interesting to note the origins and history of such common last names. I appreciate your sharing of this information.

#162 thanks dilli for posting this..there is a whole babri masjid issue at ayodhya being the seat of ramachandra, which should quickly dissolve and the karsevaks will make a bee-line to purchase tickest on Panjab Mail.

and offcourse the hastinapur on the banks of jamuna is part of greater panjab (called saptab, including ganga and jamuna) or naunjab (incl chambal and narmada). please post more about (panjabi) mahabharat, with panjabi kingdoms like dwarka, vidarbha, kalinga, ang, kosala and so forth.

161,

NO. These rajas claim Jat heritage.

Their ancestor was Ala Singh - a dacoit who converted to sikhi and was blessed with 8 generations of rule.

These rajas were basturds. They always sided with the invader. First, the Afghans (Abdali), and then the British. The legacy continues. The enunch Capt Amrinder Singh is living the legacy by being a paltoo kuta of Gandhi family - responsible for sikh carnage.

When Abdali tried to seize their lands, they evoked other sikhs` brotherhood to save themselves. They preserved their selfish interests by bootlicking foreigners. When threatened by other sikhs, they bought their way out or seeked help from anyone.

They didn`t do didly for sikhs or their cause; they failed miserably during 47 crisis.

Only Jind raja went at odds against the British losing much of his possessions.

The other claim to fame is the Bhupi turban - double turban, first supposedly tied by Bhupinder Singh.

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Kaursach # 159: That was quite an informative post. Thank you very much. It was from an excellent post by you on Jassa Singh on the UP that I first learned about the man. There was a `KalalaN di Gali` in my town. They were all Muslims and had been driven out to Pakistan. ``Sharab Da Addas` are probably run by Khatris, Jats or Pandits now and probably good money makers.

``Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia were both able, distinguished, and respected generals of the time. They were leaders of ALL the Khalsa during conflict with Abdali and seige of Delhi. Their misls were the largest.`` Were Maharajas of Patiala, Nabha, Jind etc. in East Punjab part of these clans?

I know after a while every little Raja got the urge to trace their ancesstory to Suryabansa or Chandrabansa.

Pmishra2 # 153: Thanks for that article`s link. Apart from being half Hindu and half Muslim, almost all of the Dutts are Sikhs also, some with, but most without the Khalsa five Ks. I being an agnostic am an exception and not very religious.

All the Dutt men, women and children were wiped out in toto (due to betrayal in battle) by Babur`s governor of Punjab, because the Dutt chief had sheltered a Khatri girl from his lust. The whole clan started again only because of one pregnant lady being away at her parents` house in Jammu.

Two or three of the Brahmin clans that Muhiyal mentioned in his post # 118 are probably already extinct and only live in our memory, because I personally never came across those names.

After the torture and murder of the two Dutt brothers and martyrdom of Guru Teg Bahadur by Azeb, A Dutt man or woman has always fought along with the Sikhs.

They were there with Guru Gobind singh`s twenty five followers( as told by sawami VivekaNand) and they were there with Hari singh Nalua. Duttani de Deodhi, near the Golden temple in amritsar was the court of a Dutt `Rani Laxmi Bai`type lady who fought along side the Sikh missals.

When people like Tahmed and Hindvi defend forcible conversions of Hindus, it is like adding salt to injury.

Gobind Singh required Khalsa to protect cows and Brahmins. Both cows and Brahmins were slaughtered and their blood sprinkled to desecrate temples and Gurudwaras. He also specifically said that anyone who considered the Guru as God and prayed to him would go straight to hell.

Delhi wala`s attacks on Brahmins, Hindus, Haryanwis, Jat Sikhs and his pride in the 5K symbols alone, behaving like Ayatullah of sikhism to Jang is a latter day manifestation of Khalistan supporters. To top it all, he has the gall to call me a bigot.

I know how these people think because a Khalistani relative took part in the Khalistan resolution of 1944 and I still get an earfull from him.) No he is not a Brahmin but a Khatri Bhapa Sikh like Delhi wala.)))

Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia Misls..........

Ahluwalias are snubbed as kalals (distillers) by others. This is outright stupid and nonsense. Jassa Singh probably belonged to a family of distillers. He became an orphan at an early age. He belonged to Ahlu - village south of Lahore about 10 miles.

Ahluwalia was the biggest and strongest misl in the early years of Khalsa. Sikhs from different backgrounds (Jats, Khatris, Shudars, Rajpoots, Vaishyas, and even muslims) alligned themselves with the leaders, and came to be known by the name of their leaders.

It is illogical and foolish to think that all Kalals became excellent soldiers and there were more than 200,000 kalals in Punjab at that time let alone in the Ahluwalia citadels.

Ahluwalias hail from as far as Jhelum and Toba Tek Singh to the shores of Yamuna. Their professions are as diverse. Their physical appearance also varied. They are descended from farmers, pandits, and Jats to Rajputs, to bhapas in NWFP.

Same goes for Ramgarhias. How did all the `tarkhans` of Punjab ended up in Doaba? As if they were the only ones in the region.

Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia were both able, distinguished, and respected generals of the time. They were leaders of ALL the Khalsa during conflict with Abdali and seige of Delhi. Their misls were the largest.

But the penchant of Punjabis, esp Jats to feel better at making fun of and degrade others has led to myths, jealousies, gossip and slandery.

I ran into Gujjars near Nakodar. They had made temporary homes in the fields. It was February. They supplied milk in exchange of othe goods. They looked sully and mean. Were muslim.

I did some research. Most of them transverse the mountains bordering Punjab plains with changing seasons. They are found in HP and Jammu. Most of them are muslims. Hindus are minority. sikh gujjar community is tiny.