The Amazing Khatris of Punjab

Re: # 34

{While I find it amusing Khalsa Chowkies priding on their being so true to their religion and the identity of 5Ks, a famous Bengali Kayasth noted that after having lost two teenage sons at the battle of Chamkaur Sahib, the Guru had twenty five, trace your origin to them if you like, followers with him. All the others had slithered away with their tails safely tucked.}

Guru Gobind Singh had no descendent left alive, his two elder Sahibzadas died in battle with Mughals and younger ones were bricked alive in Sirhind by Fanatic Mullahs.

That was the End of Mughals in India, Banda Bahadur was able to establish a Sikh Kingdom spanning from Jammu to Thansar in 1712, he lost it 6 years later. But by then Sikhs had realized that having a Kingdom of their own is possible.

Clearly, you are a bigot in this NIC as well as ``anti-Moron``.

Re: # 46

Dogras were traitors to the Sikhs(only exception being Mandi`s Raja, ancesstor of VP Singh, ex-PM of India).

Kashmir was given by Nalwa to Gulab Singh. Interestingly enough most of these Gorkhas at that time had become Sikh-like in their appearance, but they never followed Sikh Religion.

GuruGobind Singh Jee fought more battles with Hindu-Pahari Rajas than Muslims.

tahmed32#15:

I think Gujjars are a distinct group. Hindu Gujrals are not Gujjars. And Khukhrain is not a Khatri surname but the name given to a group of eight surnames.

Urstruly#19:

Hamidm2 said once that Pakistani soldiers practised their bayonets on Sikh dummies; does it mean that the dummies have now changed?

In the Indian army, it is not possible to have a practice dummy associated with any religion or ethnicity; it would create a huge furor in the Indian parliament.

Kaurasach#20, drlokraj#22:

The jat-khatri nok-jhonk is part of the folklore. Khatris are no lily-whites when it comes to making derogatory remarks, especially wrt jats, whom they considered as uncouth and illiterate. These stereotypes are, of course, all nonsense.

Kaura, do you know anything more about the Arora origins?

delhiwala#27:

Yes, there is some confusion about these names, especially between India and Pakistan. For example, Sial is a Jat name in Pakistan but Khatri in India; on the other hand, Bhattis are considered Rajputs in Punjab and jats in India.

This is a silly article - who cares about ``Amazing`` Khatris, brahmins, OBCs whatever ..... This endless discussion on caste, clan, creed is basically a harmful excercise which harks back old days of divisiveness.

I think you folks are really getting old - you guys have nothing better to do than get nostalgic about all these caste differences.... snap out of it....

Haavad Wala: ``Is is not true that Pathan woman used to make their kids sleep by saying Nalwa allya.`

It is OK to be moron, anti-moron, bigot or even Haavad graduate but to lie intentionally is not very nice.

Nalwa was a ruthless general and an extremely cruel man, who put up a prize of one Rupee for any Pathan head. I remember a Punjabi poem about `Killi da Buha`, where a Pathan kid is thrown to his death by nalwa (at the instigation of his grandfather) in an attempt to find the access to the door of a small fort.

As Salim noted elsewhere, thousands of Afghan women were kidnapped and carried away as booty by the Khalsa army. I have no reason to doubt Salim`s account.

Nalwa was the bogeyman in NWFP until very recently if not today.

mannyd#34:

Brahmins (Sharmas, Jaitly, Joshi, etc.), Vaishyas (Agarwals, Gupta, Goels, Mittals, Jindals, Bansals, etc.) and Shudras are still there, although most untouchable Hindus converted to christianity either before or after the Partition (ironically, Mullas were not interested in converting these achhoots).

The Sikh gaddi became hereditary, I believe, after the fourth guru. There was some controversy among the Sikhs after the tenth guru. Many Sodhis refused to accept the end of human guru and claimed that a Sodhi would remain a Guru. Maybe, this is why there are not too many Sodhis among the Khalsa. Even most of the Bedis are not khalsas; the son of Guru Nanak rebelled against his not being appointed the second Guru and rebelled, his followers are still there in Dehra Doon.

Kamini Kaushal`s married name was Sood, which is a Khatri name. It is possible that she was born into a Brahmin family although inter-caste marriages were rare in those days. Dutt among Punjabis is generally not a caste name but a middle name, like Kumar, Lal, Chander or Mal.

arjun_m#35

Sorry for the confusing syntax; Brahmin was supposed to qualify Bengalis and Marathis as well as Tamils. For Marathis, it would have probably have been more fitting to add Chitpavan Brahmins.

stuka#38:

Vohras are definitely Khatris but they are not listed among the group of eight which constitutes Khukhrains, but Suris are.

I do not know what varnas Aroras would belong to. Since they consider themselves to be Khatris, they almost certainly consider themselves to belong to the Kshatriya varnas. And since Khatris have accepted them in matrimony without much fuss, one could assume that they too have accepted them as such. But as you know, we Punjabis are not too fussy about these matters.

Re. the agitation for a Punjabi Suba, the undisputed leader was Master Tara Singh, a Khatri of Malhotra sub-caste.

Mohar11 : You must be one of those amazing OBCs. What are OBCs now and how do they amaze us? LOL)

Re: # 55

Actually I am an OBC - I don`t know if I can amaze you - But like I said - who cares? Why is this obsession with caste, clan and creed? India has moved on my friends - it has to move on ...... stop wasting time in this useless discussions/debates on caste - it doesn`t add any value to the evolving Indian society - it may actually end up hampering the development process......

re: this article
Well written.
I did not know Kapoors, Khannas, Suris etc were Khatris. I used to think Khatri was in itself a caste and that is it. I did not know these other subcastes came under the broad sweep of Khatris.
My best friend in Delhi (during Medical school days) was a Punjabi with whom i shared a room and many happy memories. His last name was Saluja. He had a cousin (now a cardiologist in USA) whose last name was Ahuja. Are these names also Khatri names or are they some other subcastes?
Anyway, fascinating story of Khatris, whose achievements stride above every other caste in India.
Sridhar
P.S: Also was surprised to know Khuranas are Khatris!

re:#42 by Picadilly
My best friend in medical grad in Delhi went on to do MS Ophthal from AIIMS and i think migrated to UK later on. I have now lost touch with him. Another khatri i know is a well known practising cardiologist in midwest, USA. I wish i had their brains!
Sridhar

Dost Ji, this article is simply one of the best. Thank you.

I am an Arora and as some one mentioned before, common Arora surnames are – Arora, Chawla, Ahuja, Saluja, Taneja, Tuteja, Chhabra etc. My understanding is that before Sikhism, our people were plain and simple business people. These days with education available to all, no one has any monopoly on high achievement whether they are Khatris, Jatts or Aroras. I have great respect for Khatris though because they have proved that they can be best of warriors, intellectuals as well as business folks.

Never knew that Dayanand was a Gujrati . I should have guessed it since all troublemakers in Punjab have been Gujratis, including the two more famous ones around 1947. Just kidding guys :)

But seriously, what’s wrong with us desis that when we have some better ideas, we tend to reject everything that has been accomplished before and we have to start all over again in order to “do it right”? I am referring to Dayanand and his arya samaj. Why he had to insult Guru Nanak in order to propagate his good ideas on education etc? I would guess that time frame for his teachings must be around second half of 19th century when Sikhs had been ousted, Muslims were no threat and everyone was safe under british and this reformer had to come in and insult everyone and their accomplishments and talk about vedic culture. I wonder if Guru Nanak was ever forgiven by these guys since Sikhs had polluted their vision of “pure vedic Hinduism”?

Or was it because Sikhs were still too arrogant for their own good even after their defeat in 1849, while others saw great opportunities in quickly getting on the English band wagon? Just curious.

re:#52 by mohar11
I do not agree with you.
In India of today, caste matters less and less in determining one`s profession. Much of what is happening in this forum is reminiscing about the past glory and feeling proud. Nothing wrong with that.
Sridhar

re:#59 by Pardesi
Thanks. You have answered my question about Salujas, Ahujas.
Sridhar

Dost/Dilliwala/Kaura and others: JattaN di baRhi nideya kar rahe O:-) I agree to large extent that jatts have too much arrogance when it comes to their being jatts. In my view that is mostly based on their village centric world view where (in the village) they are the king because everyone else depended upon income/produce from their land. I believe such people will keep believing and behaving like that for some time although a significant minority of jatts have ventured out now and are not as land dependent and connected as they were say 20/30 years ago. I have some relative who got education, jobs in cities and moved out of villages and established themselves in cities a generation ago...these uncles never sold their land and layed claim on every inch that falls under their share in the household....one such uncle who lives in England and is in his 70`s have not still sold his land even though none of his kids even willing to visit India anymore....you can almost smell his jatt arrogance inspite of the way kids have gone - totally un-jatt (by jatt worldview)....on the other hand new generation that is moving out is selling their land and instead investing that in cities in homes etc...their link to jattness and jatt pride, hence arrogance too, are much milder if not abesent in many cases.

I have friends from many other punjabi bridaris since childhood and some from my early college days...their caste does not even come to mind now unless it is specifically brought up for some reason. In normal social life that does not even come up and there is no ill-will or behavior towards others based on this briadari pride. That is true in most of social circle I know.
At the same time, Jatts are very strict on that their kids marry other jatts....I have heard jatt girls saying that their parents are ok to have a boy friend to marry as long he is jatt. Funnily enough a Jatt Sikh will most probably tolerate his kids marrying a gora or upper caste Hindu but not a black or muslim person. I think this aspect is common with how most upper caste Hindus from Punjab feel too.

BTW excellent article...lot of information not available commonly otherwise.

A Punjabi friend of mine usually says the reason we(Punjabis) have failed as a quam is because 3 ingradients most needed for a successfull nation, that we do have, but are divided along religious lines. Un-shakable faith of a muslim, hardwork and determination of a sikh and intelligence of a Khatri.

DM: where does Mahajans fall in this categorization?

i know a couple, mr khatri married to a mrs. jatt, and they constantly bicker about who is of a higher caste. Other khatri neighbor finds it very silly, since he tells me that mr. khatri is not a real khatri (based on his last name), so he he should not be so proud (and additionnal gossip that the fight is really rooted in dowry).

then other aquintance clarifies that real cool punjus are rajput (that he is)..khatris and jatts both are low-castes ;-)

all folks in this story have at least 8 years of phoren college education LOL.