Perfidy, Qur’anic Apostasy or Hermeneutics?

tahmed32:

I sense that you are in the process of making an idealogical shift towards a better alternative. You are still in early stages of doing that but the change can be sensed.

For me, it is good to see that. Just don`t let personal reasons come in the way.

kulharee: ``You guys are waving your lantern without any burner or lite in it. ``

ha! ha! you come up with good ones sometimes, esteemed mr. kulharee.

Is religion a net benefit to society? i.e. has it done more harm than good? I think today, at least in Pakistan, there is no question that religion (not Islam per se, which is very simple and straightforward matter, but the meal that has been made out of it in muslim countries) is a major impediment to social, political and economic progress.

Most people pray because they are dead-scared of hell and so try to balance off their debits (sins) with credits - not because they find prayer to be a healthy source of reflection. Most people do the hajj for the same reason.

The above is bad enough. It gets worse when men try to gain political power by using Islam. Most people accept any bs that is put forward under the label of ``Islam`` (whether it is piree faqeeri, or justification for dictatorships, or creation of a legal basis for tyranny over the poor) in Pakistan not because they are stupid but because they are scared of hell. Power hungry men exploit this moral weakness, and so have created hellish conditions for the poor in Pakistan, and probably will end up in hell themselves anyway as a result. Poetic justice.

Understanding Quran (and that too in Arabic) is a joke considering that the average literacy rates among muslims fluctuates between 3 and 19%. You guys are waving your lantern without any burner or lite in it.

#58, evolutionists practice scientism, science as an ideology rather than a method, I practice science as method, I rest my case as well.

Re: # 57

sorry. that should have been scientism.

Re: # 55
There is science. And there is scietism. I rest my case. Hopefully finally this time!!!

#50 you write <<< Almost 1.5 Billion people believe that there was immaculate conception 2006 years ago.

Over 1 Billion believe that God was deeply interested in Arabic verses about 600 years later.

Several thousand years before that we are told Moses was up to the same tricks. >>>

No big deal about the immaculate conception, as fact it can be reproduced in the lab today. How the constants of nature have the values they have for no natural reason, which led to the universe having a particular shape and being fit for life is a much bigger wonder and miracle than any immaculate conception.

Your comments about Muslims is an incoherent ramble and not much else. The Quran was revealed to the Arab society at first, it was in Arabic, they were expected to take it to the rest of the world, humankind, just like other communities had had thier messengers, same message but different language, what`s so difficult to understand about that?
What tricks was moses up to?

All this reveals is that you have absolutely no clue about what you`re talking about.

#54, infallibility, is item specific and is itself a claim that is very open to testing. Where it comes to social recommendations the criteria is benefit to humanity and not infallibility there can be no true or false policy and so on.

The analysis part comes first, the word of God (based on assumptions associated with that claim), follows only later, after it is established scientifically. What is so difficult to understand in this? Just like a hypothesis is tested scientifically before being accepted or discarded, we can test the hypothesis of the Quran being from an all-knowing creator before we accept its claim of being from a creator: the claim comes with certain assumptions about the concepts involved in the claim, those can be logically and scientifically tested; unless you don`t accept the scientific system of inquiry. In that case you will have to show me a better way at arriving at truth~ so far the method of science is the only valid system that people can use to get to the truth and facts.

Qur`an must be an interesting and wonderful text full of valid guidance for leading a fulfilling life. And like any other text it is also open to interpretation. No one can argue with that. One is making a very simple and humble, but one hopes, yet pertinent point.

It is impossible for any person to analyse a text in an interpretative framework if the same person holds the same text to be infalliable.

This holds true for Qur`an also. One cannot hold the belief that Qur`an is the literal word of god and then analyze it also. Interpretation involves being `scientific` , which means believing that all human attempts at truth are approximations of a reality out there.

#52, capitalism survives on mythology and symbols too, and many of those symbols and status enhancing bs is being used by IT proponents on here as well. Common myths of capitalism that is nurtured upon inequality are 1. US is classless society 2. There is equal opportunity for all 3. Education is the great equalizer and so on. 4. Developing countries are not developed because of their own faults, they have equal opportunities compared to developed countries etc. All myths that perpetuate a capitalist world system.

“Is Qura’n meant for Arabs only? ”
I did not find a succinct answer to the authors own question.
Of course it is not only for Arabs. No book or any written statement is , unless stamped “Strictly Confidential” ; irrespective of what language it is written in. Magna Carta, for example, though meant for English gentry and written in their language had a profound effect on the peoples of the world. ‘Thought’ has no language of its own but has to be expressed in the thinker’s language and place of abode, and so it is with Qura’n.
However the question itself is of immance significance.
The institution of Church, thrives on ‘icons’ and invents them for its sustenance and strength. This is the case with every thing Arabic. Suffice it to say that by propagating the holiness of the locale and the language, the Muslim ‘piety industry’ as a whole and its patrons the Arabs have, and are benefiting enormously at the expense of the ignorant multitude. Even the Arab dress is now concidered ``Islamic``.
To elaborate on the above, I was told of the following incident that occurred in Cairo:
“ While walking on the street my companion picked up a sheet of paper, dusted it, kissed it and put it in his pocket to dispose of it appropriately by setting it alight at home”—on questioning his action he informed that the page has Arabic writing on it and “it is sinful to step on it”. The sheet happened to be a page from a girly Arabic magazine!
Rashid

Amazing amount of BS and speculation and Ad Hominem attacks you all have produced in just a few hours. How can you all live your lives like this? Not one of your contentions is backed up by any reference, not a single one makes a case using anything factual. You construct straw men, throw out few random verses and mix them up in Ad Hominem attacks against the prophet and then you assume you’ve disproven Islam. You pretend to be anthropologist, psychologist, historian at the same time, yet don’t present a single iota of reference literature.

#32, #33- Great going you use fictional tales to disprove something you know nothing about- great going; amazing methodology to decipher the truth.

#33 you write <<>>

Great methods of argumentation, define the opposing argument yourself as a straw man, and then dismantle the straw man. Religion doesn’t give a complete system of thought it just points you in the correct direction, so that you see the inter connectedness between all things- there is nothing unscientific in that. The universe began as a singularity.

#34 there is ample proof see http://www.rationalreality.com and follow the linked articles. Read them first before blabbering on here how it is all nonsense.

#36~ amazing move, from being a philosopher of science you move into the realm of psychology and give your diagnosis. That is the sorry case of you Quran deniers- which is that you have no case besides illogical Ad Hominem arguments.

#37, to decipher evolution scientists look at indirect evidence. Whatever you see in the Universe forms less than 10% of matter, the rest is dark matter and dark energy- what is the tangible ``direct`` proof that they exist- you cannot see them? Ample indirect evidence exists in support of the god hypothesis see http://god.rationalreality.com

#38 you say <<< Only if there is talk can people overcome their inhibitions and lifelong brain washing >>> true, if you read the Quran properly you’d recognize its methodology is the same, give argumentation, point to nature, discuss using logic so that the blinders that people develop living in their society are removed for something that is based on reality. When the corporate media feeds you BS about Islam 24/7, chances are you’ll be brain washed. All these damn fools and idiots came out of the woodwork after 9/11, all claiming to ``know`` Islam when they know damn all about it.

#39 really, you mean to tell me there is no concept of Justice in Hinduism, you can go on a killing spree and no one will punish you? How about you give up Hindu mythology and find yourself reincarnated as a monkey? That shouldn’t stop you from giving up the mythology since monkeys live a freer life than what is offered to humans in America.

#48 - I think you have to believe. There is no evidence for the more profound things.

How did Morpheus know that Neo was the one? I mean, come on. Not everyone is a blithering idiot. Some of us know - just like Morpheus did. And Neo saved Zion! [refer to Matrix series]

Moving on ...

Almost 1.5 Billion people believe that there was immaculate conception 2006 years ago.

Over 1 Billion believe that God was deeply interested in Arabic verses about 600 years later.

Several thousand years before that we are told Moses was up to the same tricks.

The colorful Hindus have no shortage of their own indigenous wonders. I mean why would anyone leave the Hindu fold? They have everything that anyone could need.

We all know that there is no evidence that can be produced. Just like there is no evidence that Bush has a brain, Gates is a genius, Diana is dead or alive OR did she even exist, and so on.

I think the best chapter/verses in Quran is 33, revelations from Allah regarding Prophet`s wives..

I was ROFL`ing.. when Allah would ``reveal`` it is Ok for the Prophet to take as many wives but limiting the choices to other ``believers``.. and also instruct ``Prophet`s wives`` on how they will get ``double rewards`` / ``double punishments``.. Looks like even the ``carrot and stick`` policy is invented by Quran.. :-))

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033.028
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Say to thy Consorts: ``If it be that ye desire the life of this World, and its glitter,- then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner.

033.029
YUSUFALI: But if ye seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward.

033.030
YUSUFALI: O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.

033.031
YUSUFALI: But any of you that is devout in the service of Allah and His Messenger, and works righteousness,- to her shall We grant her reward twice: and We have prepared for her a generous Sustenance.

033.032
YUSUFALI: O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women: if ye do fear (Allah), be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.

033.033
YUSUFALI: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.


033.050
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

033.051
YUSUFALI: Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and Allah knows (all) that is in your hearts: and Allah is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.

masadi,

..... the more i think about it, the more curious i get ....... is there any proof that the koran is the word of god ? ..... witnesses, eye witness reports, circumstantial evidence, forensic evidence, etc. etc ? ........ the usual stuff, you know ......from what i have heard, the only witnesses were ali, his nephew, and khadija who bankrolled the venture and therefore had a vested interest in propagating the company line ...........

..... it is hard to believe that god could write such a book...... today i doubt any serious publisher would take a second look at the manuscript, and god would have to find another line of work to make a living - writing is obviously not his strong suite ....