Perfidy, Qur’anic Apostasy or Hermeneutics?

``The devil was talking to his friends when they noticed a man walking along a road. They watched him pass and saw that he bent down to pick something up.
- What did he find? - asked one of the friends.
- A piece of Truth - answered the devil.
The friends were very concerned. After all, a piece of Truth might save that man`s soul - one less in Hell. But the devil remained unmoved, gazing at the view.
- Aren`t you worried? - said one of his companions. - He found a piece of Truth!
- I`m not worried - answered the devil. - Do you know what he`ll do with the piece? As usual, he`ll create a new religion. And he`ll succeed in distancing even more people from the whole Truth.``

From www.thewarriorofthelight.com

`` Nasrudin decided to go in search of some new meditation techniques. He saddled his donkey, went to India, China and Mongolia, talked to the great masters, but found nothing.
He heard tell of a wise man in Nepal: he journeyed there, but as he was climbing the mountain to meet him, his donkey died of exhaustion. Nasrudin buried him there and then, and wept sadly. Someone passed by and commented:
- You came in search of a saint, this must be his tomb and you are lamenting his death.
- No, this is the place where I buried my donkey, who died of exhaustion.
- I don`t believe it - said the new arrival. - No one weeps over a dead donkey. This must be a place where miracles occur, and you want to keep them for yourself.
Although Nasrudin explained again and again, it was no use. The man went to the next village and spread the story of a great master who cured people at his tomb, and soon the pilgrims began to arrive.
Gradually, news of the discovery of the Wise Man of Silent Mourning spread throughout Nepal - and crowds rushed to the place. A wealthy man came, thought his prayers had been answered, and built an imposing monument where Nasrudin had buried his ``master``.
In view of everything, Nasrudin decided to leave things as they were. But he learned once and for all, that when someone wants to believe a lie, no one can convince him otherwise. ``

From - www.warriorofthelight.com

#28, correct, similarly another verse of the Quran states ``seeing they see not, hearing they hear not..`` which refers to the same phenomenon you talk about. Also note in that verse that the idea of believing and rejecting comes after argumentation (the context), thus the believing does not refer to label or being born Muslim etc.

#27, Ali Sina is having a field day with that news report. He has declared victory over Islam. Many of his trolls roam Chowk as well, randomly firing at Islam. However, the Pentagon should read the Old Testament for radicalism

EZEKIEL 6:12-13 The Lord says: ``... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak....``

Or Maybe they should raid Pat Robertson`s mansion for his New Testament has this quote:

``For those enemies of mine who would not have me reign over them bring them here and slay them before me.`` (Jesus Christ in Luke 19:27)

Good day to you all.

masadi #26 This is a very relevant quote indeed that you provide. The verse is reveals a very human peculiarity that is well recognized by psychologists too I think - Back in 1986, I attended a management training seminar (organized by a top-knotch international agency) where they told us about how the human mind ``filters out`` information that is contrary to its preconceived notions. Put simply, we tend to hear what only we like to hear.

This Quranic verse you provide resonates that idea - thus, in case of the first example of ``muslim myths`` that I provide in #25 (i.e. individual responsibility to use one`s common sense, even if it goes contrary to generally accepted traditions and conventions), people who are afraid to think for themselves and are tradition bound cannot be accepted to believe the Quran when it says otherwise. Similarly for the second myth, i.e. that muslims are something special, insecure people cannot be expected to believe the Quran when it says that there is nothing special about being a muslim and that all religions come from God.

Of course, these ``filters`` apply to everyone - not just to those who fall in the category of ``traditional muslims`` in Pakistan, but to you and me as well. Thus, this verse you provide is a reminder that we need to retain an open mind to all information and to take responsibility for reaching reasonable conclusions based on this. But to ``believe`` the verse, we need to have the basic mindset (through training, education and so forth) to do so. It is a Catch-22 situation in a way, but one where there is a way out if one has faith in oneself.

This may be of interest:

The Pentagon Breaks the Islam Taboo

Now for the first time, a key Pentagon intelligence agency involved in homeland security is delving into Islam`s holy texts to answer whether Islam is being radicalized by the terrorists or is already radical.

#25, From the Quran itself:


``Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, ``For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway.`` (Quran 41:44)

Let me restate #24 since one of the sentences is messed up:

Forget about hermeneutics and other scholarly refinements. We are talking about basics here: the Quran clearly says things that are the opposite of the general muslim culture today. For example, to look at the issues raised in this article:

1. Myth: As expressed in a modest manner in this article - ``Raised in a Muslim family and as an unthinking person in matters of faith, I have generally never questioned the validity of my parents’ faith``.

Fact: The Quran explicitly says that in matters of faith it is the individual`s responsibility before God to distinguish between right and wrong AND if the faith of his parents does not make sense, it is the responsibility of that individual to reject the faith of his parents (while maintaining, of course, his love and respect for them). I have found the Quran to be most liberating in the sense that it reinforces my belief in using my common sense and in the importance of individual responsibility. Of course, common sense is quite uncommon, as someone said. Particularly in the muslim world.

2. Myth: The Quran is meant for all people.

Fact: The Quran explicitly says that it is the ``ARABIC Quran``, meant for a people (i.e. Arabs) who did not understand other languages in which the message had been previously revealed (i.e. Aramaic, Hebrew etc.). Does this mean that those who do not understand Arabic cannot be muslims? Of course not - AS LONG AS they read the Quran the way it was meant to be read, i.e. as a book to be understood. Not as a magical incantation to be repeated in hopes of obtaining ``sawab``.

Forget about hermeneutics and other scholarly refinements. We are talking about basics here: the Quran clearly says things that are the opposite of the general muslim culture today. For example, to look at the issues raised in this article:

1. Myth: As expressed in a modest manner in this article - ``Raised in a Muslim family and as an unthinking person in matters of faith, I have generally never questioned the validity of my parents’ faith``.
Fact: The Quran explicitly says that in matters of faith it is the individual`s responsibility before God AND that if that the individual may reject the faith of his parents (while maintaining, of course, his love and respect for them).

2. Myth: The Quran is meant for all people.
Fact: The Quran explicitly says that it is the ``ARABIC Quran``, meant for a people (i.e. Arabs) who did not understand other languages in which the message had been previously revealed (i.e. Aramaic, Hebrew etc.). Does this mean that those who do not understand Arabic cannot be muslims? Of course not - AS LONG AS they read the Quran the way it was meant to be read, i.e. as a book to be understood. Not as a magical incantation to be repeated in hopes of obtaining ``sawab``.

#21 & #22, what truth have you showed me? So far you come up with claims, I dismantle your claims and then you come up with absurd statements like ``case closed``- without presenting one iota of evidence. You all are not at the liberty of opening and closing cases at will without presenting any evidence or refuting what totally dismantles your absurdities. So far all your attacks on the Quran, like the many Scuds that Saddam let loose in 1991, have failed miserably- they amount to be a pathetic joke. Be honest with yourselves; #17 had an outright lie about the Quran, and your friend sailen has been rambling without presenting any evidence and making grand claims without even reading the Quran (as he himself claims). Now I know you both admire George Bush but that doesn`t mean you should lie pathetically like he does.

Re: # 21

Well said

Masadi you are terrified of the truth, for you have seen the abyss. their is no shame in acknowledging so, it has terrified most of us, but it is a price you have to pay if u seek the truth and/ or consider all humans to be apriori equal. But if you seek to be happy than continue to believe your ancestral myths.

#19, Unfortunately for you, you are showing fanaticism and your ramblings are only disproving your own point. The book of nature talks to everyone as well, yet in order to decipher what is in fact rather than what is claimed we need the method of science. There is no oxymoron involved only a ``moron`` and that by your comments is you.

Re: # 18

``Theological truth`` is an oxymoron.

God either talks to every one. Or he does not talk to any one.

Neither is the Qur`an the revealed truth, nor are the Torah, Gita or the Bible.

There can be no reasoning with people who believe in something as ridiculous as an exclusive revelation.

Period.

The case is henceforth closed.

#17, apparently you did not read the Quran closely enough

``And among God`s signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect (Koran 30:21)
Since the ONLY valid way for humanity to arrive at truth is the system of science, why can`t we use it when it come to theological claims to extract truth from falsehood? If there is another valid way to get truth, let me know.

When I read quran, I specially pondered over its construction of relations between a man and wife. I realized that it completely fails to acknowledge that one of the basis of such a relation is love. According to quran, the relation between the two is a very practical one, of giving and taking of sexual organs, and the money involved and the children resulting. It delibrately ignores any component of love present in the relation.

I think research should focus on the reasons why the faithful, so fervently, insist on the reveletion being real. It is only after missing this point, making a huge assumption, that they set out to bend all the realities in favour of its stipulations. Ironically, this is exactly what einstein did to classical physics.

#15, you talk about contradictions but you haven`t even read the book, please give a few examples. When I give references regarding the mathematical construction of the Quran, you make up a nonsense polemic? Who is being unreasonable here?