Perfidy, Qur’anic Apostasy or Hermeneutics?
Abdul Arif December 17, 2005
#45 Posted by aquaris on December 18, 2005 3:28:16 pm
#44
``........Hitler COULD pull it off in 1940.......``
And Bush is pulling it off .... right in front of us....
On the heaps of lies and deciet and plain arrogance.....
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#44 Posted by Singularity on December 18, 2005 3:03:36 pm
To add to #43:
The very concept of Un-believers is proof enough that When Mohamad came and told the people in his village that he had visions from god, then obviously nobody believed him and those became un-believers. Mo regularly had delusions of god and him being prophet. Initially he was laughed at and ridiculed but then events took a turn and favored him. He went to Medina with his men and luckily he won a battle with fewer men. It always happens. There are various factors for it. The major one maybe the fearlessness of his followers for they are assured HEAVEN and 72 virgins if they die in the battle field. Now the tribals without education or means for a living THAT promise itself is indeed heaven.
Then his job becomes easier to convince the IGNORANT tribals that he indeed is the prophet. Then you dont even have to have delusions anymore. All you need is say whatever you want as gods words and thats it. Now with a bigger force behind Mo, he comes back and conquers Mecca and the people who ridiculed him. Maybe we atleast should give him credit for being a decent warrior. Heck, Hitler COULD pull it off in 1940s in the midst of full blown science and technological development and educated people. Why couldn`t Mo not have done it in an il-literate, ignorant arabia?
The very concept of Un-believers is proof enough that When Mohamad came and told the people in his village that he had visions from god, then obviously nobody believed him and those became un-believers. Mo regularly had delusions of god and him being prophet. Initially he was laughed at and ridiculed but then events took a turn and favored him. He went to Medina with his men and luckily he won a battle with fewer men. It always happens. There are various factors for it. The major one maybe the fearlessness of his followers for they are assured HEAVEN and 72 virgins if they die in the battle field. Now the tribals without education or means for a living THAT promise itself is indeed heaven.
Then his job becomes easier to convince the IGNORANT tribals that he indeed is the prophet. Then you dont even have to have delusions anymore. All you need is say whatever you want as gods words and thats it. Now with a bigger force behind Mo, he comes back and conquers Mecca and the people who ridiculed him. Maybe we atleast should give him credit for being a decent warrior. Heck, Hitler COULD pull it off in 1940s in the midst of full blown science and technological development and educated people. Why couldn`t Mo not have done it in an il-literate, ignorant arabia?
#43 Posted by Singularity on December 18, 2005 2:51:03 pm
#40 flatlanders:
A belief system is still a strong motivator for the humans to tide off the tough times in life. Somebody with belief in god can always fare better during moments of utter crisis and desperation for the very survival since people can always gain strength in the power of God. So there is nothing wrong with the inherent belief in something that is superhuman. We dont have to debate if that Super-human god is present or not. It is beyond our vision.
That super-human god can have any name you want, depending on your own culture or language or environment. Calling god by Hindi or arabic or mandarin doesn`t change the super-human nature of god. Neither does seeking strength by prayer in a temple or mosque or church change the super-human nature of god. Also, it doesn`t change the super-human nature of god if you call urself muslim or hindu or christian. This is the essence of Hindu philosophy WHICH is misconstrued and demonized as Polytheism by the ignorant tribal arabs and hebrew tribals. So the point is the belief in god per se is not wrong. But calling others as evil/satan and believing they go to hell gets into the realm of dogmas and tribal myths.
Is the Hindu philosophy divine and given by god to Humans. NO. Knowledgeable Hindus enlightened by years of rational questions about god and universe have evolved to be tolerant and inclusive since they had the luxury of wealth and huge resources to afford to be inclusive. But the tribal hebrews and arabs living in resource poor deserts CANNOT afford to be inclusive since the desert environment cant provide for everybody. So they had to closely identify who is their tribe and who is not to use their mimimal resource more usefully. Thats the reason for the, if you are not one of us you are evil/satan theory. In a tribal world with minimal resources if one tribe raids another and runs away with their stored food then it means death during a harsh summer. So no wonder they called those who are not themselves as evil. They are constantly fighting for their very survival year in and year out. The same applies to the COLD Europe and Christianity and their satan myths.
Whereas in a resource rich India(and China) , you have year round crops since the land is fertile and you can afford to be inclusive and one single act of plunder doesn`t mean death. It only means bad karma. Now people who evolve with this luxury of assured resources year round have the time to think about philosophy, growth and developement INSTEAD of always fighting for survival. It becomes a cyclical evolution.
There is NO other land in the whole earth with the combination of right environment, size, huge resources and the resultant huge numbers. Thats the reason why whenever India was attacked they could go south re-group and come back and attack the muslims. Thats the reason why the muslim invaders never could conquer India one last time like they could with a desert Persia or a desert Egypt. Same applies to Europe, Americas and Africa. But not to India and China. Both had the luxury of size and resources spread almost evenly in their huge land mass. If the southern India had been a desert then the story could be much like the Persians. So its always RESOURCES the stupid.
Now, to try to come to such solution you need to READ a lot and research and analyze a lot. How can a muslim who is taught that Koran is the source of all the GENIUS of the world read something else and learn and evolve. Whereas a hindu growing up with a culture of question everything including GITA adapts and changes faster and are ready to dump GITA if it doesn`t serve them to move on.
Watch the growth of the Europeans after the mass that makes a difference dumped the Bible and moved on. Muslims never had that kind of opportunity or leadership to make the jump on their own. But now they dont have a choice and will be made to jump kicking and screaming by the rest of the world.
A belief system is still a strong motivator for the humans to tide off the tough times in life. Somebody with belief in god can always fare better during moments of utter crisis and desperation for the very survival since people can always gain strength in the power of God. So there is nothing wrong with the inherent belief in something that is superhuman. We dont have to debate if that Super-human god is present or not. It is beyond our vision.
That super-human god can have any name you want, depending on your own culture or language or environment. Calling god by Hindi or arabic or mandarin doesn`t change the super-human nature of god. Neither does seeking strength by prayer in a temple or mosque or church change the super-human nature of god. Also, it doesn`t change the super-human nature of god if you call urself muslim or hindu or christian. This is the essence of Hindu philosophy WHICH is misconstrued and demonized as Polytheism by the ignorant tribal arabs and hebrew tribals. So the point is the belief in god per se is not wrong. But calling others as evil/satan and believing they go to hell gets into the realm of dogmas and tribal myths.
Is the Hindu philosophy divine and given by god to Humans. NO. Knowledgeable Hindus enlightened by years of rational questions about god and universe have evolved to be tolerant and inclusive since they had the luxury of wealth and huge resources to afford to be inclusive. But the tribal hebrews and arabs living in resource poor deserts CANNOT afford to be inclusive since the desert environment cant provide for everybody. So they had to closely identify who is their tribe and who is not to use their mimimal resource more usefully. Thats the reason for the, if you are not one of us you are evil/satan theory. In a tribal world with minimal resources if one tribe raids another and runs away with their stored food then it means death during a harsh summer. So no wonder they called those who are not themselves as evil. They are constantly fighting for their very survival year in and year out. The same applies to the COLD Europe and Christianity and their satan myths.
Whereas in a resource rich India(and China) , you have year round crops since the land is fertile and you can afford to be inclusive and one single act of plunder doesn`t mean death. It only means bad karma. Now people who evolve with this luxury of assured resources year round have the time to think about philosophy, growth and developement INSTEAD of always fighting for survival. It becomes a cyclical evolution.
There is NO other land in the whole earth with the combination of right environment, size, huge resources and the resultant huge numbers. Thats the reason why whenever India was attacked they could go south re-group and come back and attack the muslims. Thats the reason why the muslim invaders never could conquer India one last time like they could with a desert Persia or a desert Egypt. Same applies to Europe, Americas and Africa. But not to India and China. Both had the luxury of size and resources spread almost evenly in their huge land mass. If the southern India had been a desert then the story could be much like the Persians. So its always RESOURCES the stupid.
Now, to try to come to such solution you need to READ a lot and research and analyze a lot. How can a muslim who is taught that Koran is the source of all the GENIUS of the world read something else and learn and evolve. Whereas a hindu growing up with a culture of question everything including GITA adapts and changes faster and are ready to dump GITA if it doesn`t serve them to move on.
Watch the growth of the Europeans after the mass that makes a difference dumped the Bible and moved on. Muslims never had that kind of opportunity or leadership to make the jump on their own. But now they dont have a choice and will be made to jump kicking and screaming by the rest of the world.
#42 Posted by TheFlatLanders on December 18, 2005 2:47:09 pm
#41 - also called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Damned if you do and damned if you dont. This dust is certainly raw!
#41 Posted by Raw_Dust on December 18, 2005 2:42:55 pm
Hermeneutics and other gimmics - a boobytrap?
Allah Mian says:
02:23:
SHAKIR: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
02:24:
SHAKIR: But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.
Allah Mian says:
02:23:
SHAKIR: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
02:24:
SHAKIR: But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.
#47 Posted by teshah on December 18, 2005 6:04:27 pm
Re: # 41
A somewhat similar chllenge was made by Ustad Imam Din, a Punjabi poet of Gujerat, but nobody seems to have dared to accept that challenge to this day. Why? The questioon is who will be the Judge? Mind dear Quran also says that those who do not use their `aql` (the gretest gift of Allah to humans) are worse than animals.
A somewhat similar chllenge was made by Ustad Imam Din, a Punjabi poet of Gujerat, but nobody seems to have dared to accept that challenge to this day. Why? The questioon is who will be the Judge? Mind dear Quran also says that those who do not use their `aql` (the gretest gift of Allah to humans) are worse than animals.
#40 Posted by TheFlatLanders on December 18, 2005 1:52:03 pm
#39 - ``.. what happened to the Dinausaurs which didn`t or couldn`t adapt. Islam and Christianity wont survive this century with their dogmas. They will eventually get diluted and they will become more spiritual. ``
Good point. May you be right. As a born muslim I would prefer to have a belief system that creates peace and harmony. I always thought my religion did that until I took the trouble of reading it and asking questions. Now I am rudderless and find solace in philosophy, humility and other such things. My world is simple.
Good point. May you be right. As a born muslim I would prefer to have a belief system that creates peace and harmony. I always thought my religion did that until I took the trouble of reading it and asking questions. Now I am rudderless and find solace in philosophy, humility and other such things. My world is simple.
#39 Posted by Singularity on December 18, 2005 1:22:48 pm
#37 Parthaab, Sailen, Einsteinwallah, macgupta and other Hindus:
The very reason why Hindus are able to make a few mental jumps which the mullah muslims find very hard to make is coz hindu philosophy has no DOGMAS which tells that the hindus will go to some imaginary hell if they jump the Hindu ship of myths. So this gives infinitely more freedom to think out of the box for a hindu. So it gives an average hindu enough leverage and gives them a chance to adapt and change faster. Thats the reason for their longevity(5000+ years of civilizational continuity) despite huge odds. The same reason applies to the taoist chinese. That and Huge Indian/Chinese resources and size are the reasons why the ALL CONQUERING Christianity and Islam which conquered the entire Europe, Americas, Africa, Parts of asia came to a grinding halt when they faced the hindu-taoist-buddhist INDIA-CHINA-Japan. Other than this 2.5 billion mega group, the rest are all either christian or muslim for the most part.
It is infinitely difficult for mullahs like masadi and tahmed to make the same jump coz the arab tribal dogmas threaten them with fatwas and death and hell if they jump the arab ship of myths. We all what happened to the Dinausaurs which didn`t or couldn`t adapt. Islam and Christianity wont survive this century with their dogmas. They will eventually get diluted and they will become more spiritual.
The very reason why Hindus are able to make a few mental jumps which the mullah muslims find very hard to make is coz hindu philosophy has no DOGMAS which tells that the hindus will go to some imaginary hell if they jump the Hindu ship of myths. So this gives infinitely more freedom to think out of the box for a hindu. So it gives an average hindu enough leverage and gives them a chance to adapt and change faster. Thats the reason for their longevity(5000+ years of civilizational continuity) despite huge odds. The same reason applies to the taoist chinese. That and Huge Indian/Chinese resources and size are the reasons why the ALL CONQUERING Christianity and Islam which conquered the entire Europe, Americas, Africa, Parts of asia came to a grinding halt when they faced the hindu-taoist-buddhist INDIA-CHINA-Japan. Other than this 2.5 billion mega group, the rest are all either christian or muslim for the most part.
It is infinitely difficult for mullahs like masadi and tahmed to make the same jump coz the arab tribal dogmas threaten them with fatwas and death and hell if they jump the arab ship of myths. We all what happened to the Dinausaurs which didn`t or couldn`t adapt. Islam and Christianity wont survive this century with their dogmas. They will eventually get diluted and they will become more spiritual.
#38 Posted by TheFlatLanders on December 18, 2005 1:20:58 pm
#36 - most people dont like to believe it. It is cretainly in the realm of possibility (i remember my mushroom experience quite vividly :=)). There is a lot of ``believing`` and much of it blind if this is not considered a possibility. I dont want to hurt anyones feelings but at a pure discussion level, this possibility needs to be recognized. Similarly, one must ask the question, is God the dad of Jesus and how? I mean we have serious problems - doesnt matter if you are of any religion. There are plenty of bizarre expectations made from people who follow faith. This article and similar efforts are needed badly to help people see inside their so-called blind-spots. Only if there is talk can people overcome their inhibitions and lifelong brain washing. There is no way that there are different gods handling different religions - we all connect somewhere. We must strive to cross our repective chasms and connect.
#37 Posted by parthaab on December 18, 2005 12:45:50 pm
The point is, if God really does exist, it would be easy to prove, as there would be tangible evidence. What we have instead is standard mass delusion.
Religion exists solely because people don`t understand stuff and look for meaning, even though all that does is move the problem elsewhere. (I.e. where did God come from)
The actual religions and the sources they`re based on are totally irrational, not least because each one claims to be right. That shows just how hard it is to understand `God`s will`.
Once you alight on the reasonable assertion that religion is *just* organised mass delusion, everything fits neatly into place.
God won`t save the poor from devastation because there is no God.
Rama, Mohamed and Jesus, The Holy Ramayana, The Holy Quran and The Holy Bible, didn`t save the human race, because there`s no saving to be done. Hell and Heaven don`t exist. Full Stop.
Religion exists solely because people don`t understand stuff and look for meaning, even though all that does is move the problem elsewhere. (I.e. where did God come from)
The actual religions and the sources they`re based on are totally irrational, not least because each one claims to be right. That shows just how hard it is to understand `God`s will`.
Once you alight on the reasonable assertion that religion is *just* organised mass delusion, everything fits neatly into place.
God won`t save the poor from devastation because there is no God.
Rama, Mohamed and Jesus, The Holy Ramayana, The Holy Quran and The Holy Bible, didn`t save the human race, because there`s no saving to be done. Hell and Heaven don`t exist. Full Stop.
#36 Posted by einsteinwallah on December 18, 2005 12:01:43 pm
Is it possible that Muhammad hallucinated all or at least some revelations? From what I know of his circumstance at the time it happened he was starving or eating certain food. If you eat same type of food over and over you may deprive yourself of some essential nutrient and then you may have frank psychiatric symptoms. It is possible.
#34 Posted by hamidm2 on December 18, 2005 11:41:27 am
........ just curious ...
........ is there any ``proof`` that the koran is the word of god ?...... were there any witnesses to the event ?.... did anyone, other than mo of mecca, see the winged creature in the cave ?........... are ali and khadija reliable witnesses ?........
.......... anyhow, it doesn`t really matter whether it is the word of god or not ..... what matters is that a billion people believe in it and are beginning to become a real pain in the collective keester of the rest of the world ...........
#33 Posted by einsteinwallah on December 18, 2005 11:27:40 am
A Weltanschauung solves all the problems of existence uniformly on the basis of one overriding hypothesis leaving no question unanswered. In Science uniformity of explanation of universe is assumed but not as a completed task rather as a programme which furnishes progressively more accurate version of truth. While Science is doing its work the truth is known approximately and that state of affairs remains in Science forever. Therefore, the term “Scientific Weltanschauung” is oxymoron.
Religion tries to give a Weltanschauung; a complete system of thought. Since the birth of Science even a littlest acceptance of science’s methods is bound to lead to rejection of any Weltanschauung type of thinking.
Religion tries to give a Weltanschauung; a complete system of thought. Since the birth of Science even a littlest acceptance of science’s methods is bound to lead to rejection of any Weltanschauung type of thinking.
#31 Posted by sailen on December 18, 2005 11:07:59 am
``The devil was talking to his friends when they noticed a man walking along a road. They watched him pass and saw that he bent down to pick something up.
- What did he find? - asked one of the friends.
- A piece of Truth - answered the devil.
The friends were very concerned. After all, a piece of Truth might save that man`s soul - one less in Hell. But the devil remained unmoved, gazing at the view.
- Aren`t you worried? - said one of his companions. - He found a piece of Truth!
- I`m not worried - answered the devil. - Do you know what he`ll do with the piece? As usual, he`ll create a new religion. And he`ll succeed in distancing even more people from the whole Truth.``
From www.thewarriorofthelight.com
- What did he find? - asked one of the friends.
- A piece of Truth - answered the devil.
The friends were very concerned. After all, a piece of Truth might save that man`s soul - one less in Hell. But the devil remained unmoved, gazing at the view.
- Aren`t you worried? - said one of his companions. - He found a piece of Truth!
- I`m not worried - answered the devil. - Do you know what he`ll do with the piece? As usual, he`ll create a new religion. And he`ll succeed in distancing even more people from the whole Truth.``
From www.thewarriorofthelight.com
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