An Alternative Spelling of Eed

#143 teshah
Thank you. OK, I will.

142 by Zeena

Thank you dear for your kind and prompt response. Athough I believe that all praise be to Allah yet my heart felt flattered when you praised my self. Such is our ego.

Dear Zeena, I for one, seeing your soul searching for the truth, wanted to know more about your person. I however found little from your prophile. So will you please like to intruduce your self to me, preferabely, on my personal e-mail address:talawat@hotmail.com?

With regards

#141 teshah
Well, it is a pleasant surprise, that among crowds of commoners, we find some real gems, who give us serenity of mind and soul. and, you are one of those real personas. I mean it.

Now, since your post was so, very beautiful. I am speechless infront of your words of wisdom.

Let me give you an essence of my point of view about faiths/religions....................

For all of us humanbeings, acquiring a deeper knowledge and understanding of our faiths/religions, finding the spiritual reality with in our own souls, gives meaning to life and by concluding our daily life based on that faith, while respecting the spiritual choices of others faiths. Faiths/ religions can only be caught, can be taught. It isn`t a dress code to wear on specific days. It is true side of our characters, which leads to the development of our souls. It is not an epithelium part of our skins, which ultimately peels off to be born again. Yes, it can be cultivated and re freshened deeper and deeper, till it meets the needs of our thirsty souls to lead a path of unknown destiny to take us to see the ultimate light.
The actions of the most humans at present are little guided by faith. They often are given instructions, not, education about their faiths.

Take care
Regards
Zeena

136 by Zeena

Thank you for your compliments dear. I am sorry that I misunderstood you. Is it not a proof enough of the fact that we cannot be sure about what is subjective, i.e., inside one’s heart? Even we ourselves know little about our own hearts. The Punjabi poet and aarif, Sultan Bahu, says “Dil darya samundron doonge koun dillaan dia janrhen” (Hearts are deeper than seas who can fathom them). See what the Quranic Allah says about the Arabs who claimed to have faith in Islam “Aayat 14, soorae hujraat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
``Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne kih imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho `Musalman` yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq allah bakhshne wala mehrban he.``

(The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad):Ye believe not, but rather say ``We submit`` for faith hath not yet entered your hearts.)

I hope you can understand and read Urdu written in Roman Script.

Many Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace and respects others’ faith. But the question is whether those who are called believers in the Quran can live in peace with those whom they call disbelievers (Kaafirs) when the Quran says, “48-29. Mohammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (Arabic-‘Ashidda’) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves.” (Translation by Pickthall)

The fact is not to speak of Muslims only, who have no mercy even for their co-religionist whom they can declare non- Muslims out of hatred; the humanity as such has been brutalized in general by fanaticism which essentially springs from religious sectarian hatred.

With regards.

ZeenaBen #136: ``All, I am asking is, Please, do not humiliate anyone`s faith. Which this article is all about. This article is just humiliating my faith. Even , if, this ARTICLE is about hinduism. I will stand up for that. Thank you very much for your precious time.``

So you think Pakistan was created to protect you from evil Hindus. Is that why 6 millions of them were driven out of Pakistan and ten thousand square miles of private property gobbled up? After all that effort and Pakification, you still migrated out to USA and want a new Mini-Pakistan here and on Chowk. Why oh why???

You are putting far far too much value on your standing up Zeena Ben. I do not. Keep sitting or better yet go back to Pakistan.

If Hinduism can not survive without little old aunties like you standing up for it, it better perish anon.

My faith says that there is a lot of built-in potential for rabble rousing and mob formation in all organised religions. Please Zeena, do not humiliate my faith.

ZeenaBen #137:

That you would like to shut off dissenting opinion comes as no surprise to me.

``Anyhow it seems your family`s considered answer to my question is that I am a pituitary retard and have very little integrity. Not too much of an answer from the President of APPNA and his family.``

Sorry, but you have said nothing new for me to revise my low opinion of your abuse. It is still not much of an answer from President of APPNA.

Yes do not threaten to remove Your gloves in public again, please. There may be children present.

Pitutary retards are handicapped due to an unfortunate physical condition. It is not their fault if they are handicapped. However people, who intentionally lie do so because of low character or sheer contempt for others.

One may not like Urstruly`s poloitics or blunt style of talk, but no one can ever accuse him of lying. The man is honest to a fault. When he talks about Koran, Ahmedis and Kafirs, he is not going to sugarcoat the truth. He lays it on the line, as it is written in the book. If he tells me I am going to burn in Hell, I better get concerned. When I am face to face with Xazyten, Zeena`s bromides will not wash.

An interactor claiming to be of just average intellignece but with an IQ of 130 does not understand simple concept of average or normal distribution or is a plain liar. In talking to an interactor from the GhaRvinza division about Farzana`s abilities, Zeena had this to brag about herself:
``
on January 18, 2006 5:04pm PT
#32 ali_1
Well, my English is very poor. Even, my Urdu is poorer. My Kashmiri is lil less poor. My Pushto is the poorest, my Punjabi is worse, my telugu sucks, my marathi is OK, my sanskrit is less poor, my bengali is just ok, my gujarati is just basics, sindhi just better, tamil just touching and persian is the best.

My intellect is just an average IQ of 130. But, if, you say so. Thanks for your compliments. ``
OK ZeenaBen, prove you have an IQ of 130 or admit you were just pulling our leg. Then we can talk about faiths, retards and hellfire.

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#134 by teshah
No, sir
You`re wrong. I didn`t take you as hindu. I saw your profile before responding you. You are pure Pakistani.

Now, comeing to your point. You made excellent points. I loved your profile. I loved your i-logs. Since then I have great respect for you.

Now, again come to your points in #134.
Your points regarding {{ this is what Pakistan has taught me to become a judge of others faiths}}}
Let me answer you for that, first. 1:-No, absolutely not, it looks like you did not read my responses carefully. OK, let me , make it very clear to you. I do respect every faith with all my heart and soul and that is the main reason, I am absolutely not judging anyone based on faith. In this whole discussion, my main point is (All of us should respect each others faiths regardless of any faith. I hope I am clear. That is , what I have stood up for !
Please, do not take me wrong. Even in Pakistan, only pseudo Islamic Mullahs judge others by their faiths. Not the others. Majority of Pakistani do respect others faiths.

I can not tolerate those Mullahs, who attack others faiths and then making (fathwas) about them. Let me give you an example of myself. The way Mullahs brutalised Ahmedis, I hate them for that. If, Ahmedis are followers of certain sect, we should respect them equally, rather disrespecting their faith, they should be given equal right of freedom to praxtice their faith, same goes for shiiaas, sunnis, Hindus, christians, jews etc, etc.

All, I am asking is, Please, do not humiliate anyone`s faith. Which this article is all about. This article is just humiliating my faith. Even , if, this ARTICLE is about hinduism. I will stand up for that. Thank you very much for your precious time.



#135 mannyd
I am not interested in discussing with you anything.
Look at your response. You are trying to humiliate me. But, let me tell you a secret. I don`t care. Go, call me names, I am not going to respond you. You are in my big ignore list.

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133 by Zeena


``I am really surprised , most of the hindus were happy on this article, which is an apparent attempt to humiliate my faith................That surprises me the most and now, i have realised, why Pakistan came in to being? before I didn`t have clue, but, now i got it.``

You are so simplistic dear as women generally are and, mind, I love them for that. Please tell me how can one know about one`s faith. Now you took my faith as Hindu and also concluded that that faith of mine becomes happy at any attempt to humiliate your faith. So this is what you reiterate again and again; your respect for faiths of others? This is what Pakistan has taught you; to become a judge of others` faith which is purely a subjective matter? It is Pakistan where they attack on one`s faith by judging one a `kafir` (infidel) and then declaring him to be `Waajibul-qatl` (worthy of being lynched). What a respect of faith it is?

#129, 130 and 132
Takeing the gloves off could mean many things, i want to see some document that says You are given permission to abuse and torture and humiliate others faiths.
Anyone who humiliates others faiths , i believe is pituitary retard.

teshah
I am really surprised , most of the hindus were happy on this article, which is an apparent attempt to humiliate my faith................That surprises me the most and now, i have realised, why Pakistan came in to being? before I didn`t have clue, but, now i got it.

mannyd
Please, do not bring my family in to this discussion. Enough is enough. Go, discuss about your family on internet, who cares? But, absolutely not about mine. Thank you very much for listening. I hope , you will be more careful in future. This article has absolutely got nothing to do with my family. This shows, how much integrity you have for other`s faiths?

When, I say faith, I say about all faiths including hinduism. I will never ever disrespect your faith in any way. B/c I am an open minded persona who absorbs all faiths via respect.

Farzana Versey

I congraulate you for turning Chowk into a Hyde Park of internet much to the chagrin of Zeena.

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`mannyd
shame on you. Double shame on you. When did I humiliate hindu or any other faiths. Same on you for lying. Shame on you for calling me fundo and extremists, with out even reading my responses.`

Shame on you and your reading ability. The question was addressed to the great seer Nasah, who can differentiate between `religious and fundo`, not to you. You can not figure it out even with your daughter`s help.

Here is how Hinduism/ Budhism get involved in the discussion when you claim a book came directly from God and can not be questioned.

`Would you consider a revealed book out of San Felipe coming out tomorrow or next week that totally ignores San Francisco or Mayan Pyramids, a word from Xaztyen, the new name for new God per the new revealation? `

I am going along fine in my life with what my grandpappy told me about Hinduism, until somebody tells me about the new word from God. Does the latest word mention Rama? NO? Does it mention Krishna? No! How about Shiva and his Lingum? No!!!! Any of the other sundry thirty three Crore deities? On top of it the book is in Castillian Spanish of the fifteenth century and I `ll burn in hell if I do not submit to Xaztyen.

You are asking me to shut up in `double shame` when my immortal soul may be in peril? Do talk to your children and husband about your logic on that one Zeena Ben. I`ll be around....Cont`d.

Zeena #128:

`I wish all of us could have maturity to adhere to chowk interact guidelines. Not only on front page, but, on unplugged as well.`

Amen! Physician, first heal thyself.

Now you claim to have an average IQ of 130. Can you figure out a way to keep your pomposity of `Tsk, tsk` and `shame on you`s out of here if you have nothing else to say? Go talk about Hijab or something else on an other thread.

And stop repeating yourself. It does not add to or diminish from the initial inanity you issued forth just twenty eight minutes ago in #127.

Dear chowk staff and chief editor
Please, pardon me for posting irrelevant post here.
I wish all of us could have maturity to adhere to chowk interact guidelines. Not only on front page, but, on unplugged as well.

I also wish our chief editor could set an example of adhering to the same guideline, when publishing any article as well.
submitted with all due respect.

Dear chowk staff and chief-editor
Chowk guidelines are crystal clear about certain topics. I post those guidelines for other interactors and editor-in-chief.

In order to protect this freedom for all Chowkwalas, it is necessary to adhere to the rules of good conduct as spelled out below.

Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, religion or other personal discriminations.........

With all due respect
sincerely
Zeena

mannyd
shame on you. Double shame on you. When did I humiliate hindu or any other faiths. Same on you for lying. Shame on you for calling me fundo and extremists, with out even reading my responses.

Again, I am saying out very loud, this shameless creature who humiliates others faiths is insane. And, also, who supports this piece of trash is also insane.

Talking about new cults. So, listen there are millions of cults in the world. Let them be.

But,if, the same very cult will come and humiliates my faith , then I will call them insane.

Why are you indulging hinduisam in this ? This isn`t about your faith. But, even if it would have been humiliation about Hinduism, I would call it insane. tsk,tsk,tsk on your prejudiced mind.

Nasah #118: `you may be religious but certainly not a fundo -- so let Hamzad go.....`

You have found a way to differentiate between `religious and fundo`. What is it? Please do explain.

Why are you letting Hamzad go? If you can not answer Hamzad`s questions, who else will? Tahmed or YLH? If not now, when? Please do not hide behind the `blasphemy` shield, unless Allah has ordained YOU to take His divine law into your own hands and you can prove it.

How about the son of Bhagwan Rajnesh, who may be planning a new commune in North Dakota, based on the Kama Sutra? Are you vile creatures going to mock the new faith of all the beverley Hills New Agers? Shame on you Zeena, Tsk, tsk, tsk and double tsk!!

Would you consider a revealed book out of San Felipe coming out tomorrow or next week that totally ignores San Francisco or Mayan Pyramids, a word from Xaztyen, the new name for new God per the new revealation?

To all the Mullahs, male or females: You Islamists are shouting `Blasphemy` at this article, while ignoring your own offenses against two billion Hindus and Budhists. Should I count the ways how?

#120 teshah
{{{One should not however be allowed to go on rampage against the human rights acting on his dreams, hallucinations, etc.. }}}

WoW, if, we go by your suggestion, then let schizophrenics kill others , just to respect their delusions and hellucinations that the voices tell them to kill others, to set fire, to steal, to humiliate others faiths, to rape.

So, what, if someone will be killed, raped, humiliated, at least we will obey basic human right to act and respect for others hullicinations of murdering, raping and humiliating others faiths.
Wondeful.

Wonderful, you`re great!!

#11 by HP

``It is not just offensive, it is outrageously offensive! A little humor might have put some life in the article.``

Just as Ibrahim is stated to have done with the idols worshipped by his people and the Yamanies did to the `BlackStone` worshipped by the Muslims by fixing it in a latrine, as the history tells us, in their futile attempt to put an end to what they considered to be a blatant `Shirk`. In fact every new thought, new ideology, new religion, etc., can be considered to be offensive if judged by the values of the existing one. One should not however be allowed to go on rampage against the human rights acting on his dreams, hallucinations, etc..

#118
nasah
Yes, i agree with you. But, hey just read my post #115. That is my answer. I will call this insanity million times, if, i have to.

I am nor religious, neither fundo. I am a good human being, who stands up for her values and who knows , how to respect other`s faiths.Thanks

#119 pmishra2
You are wrong, absolutely wrong. So, you are saying. All of us should be proud of this trash, which humiliates our faiths. So, in your view this is the criteria for education. Wow.
You`re wonderful, I wish , Pakistan has majority of people like you who support humiliation of others faiths
I am absolutely not extremist pseudoIslamist,but, hey , I keep my faith very dear to me.
If, you respect your parents , your faiths and other human beings feelings, that is what education is! Education makes you sane. Education doesn`t make you rough and insane, which this article is.

dear Zeena -- how many times you are going to call a piece of trash a trash -- just calm down -- enough is enough -- you may be religious but certainly not a fundo -- so let Hamzad go.....

Good job flushing out the islamo-supremacists. With comments like this from educated people, no wonder extremist islam is routine and mainstream in pakistan.

[quote]
This is nothing but a balant case of out right blasphemy, don`t play with our beliefs. Rest that in peace, please
[quote]

Sadly, insanity prevails, sanity extincts.

The person who humiliates other`s faiths, abuses women, misogynistic(women hater), stalks and harrasses stranger women , calls names and repeatedly shows a disturbance of conduct in which rights of others are verbally and psychologically violated or age appropriate societal norms and rules are disregarded with reckless abusive lanuguage towars other`s beliefs comes under the category of sociopath with antisocial disorder. This person is clearly showing severe disturbance in thought process (which is very sharp and fine in an intelligent person with chemical balance) , this thought process in such individuals becomes disturbed , crude and rough with chemical imbalance , mostly congenital or developmentally blocked neuro- transmitters with the passege of years, it becomes more and more evident and specially at an older age, such disturbed individual looses all the neuronal control of already recessed neurones and becomes more and more neurotic, at the end , could be suicidal and homicidal as well.

Such disturbed psychopath has a pervasive pattern of disregard or disrespect for and violation of the rights of others. In their disturbed personality, there is a complete failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing abuse for others , which are grounds for their arrest and for their psychotherapy. This person`s deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases and conning others and their faiths for personal pleasures or profits, reflecting impulsivity to lack of self control, to think wisely ,lack of remorse for others feelings as being indifferent to or rationalizing hurting other`s feelings and emotions,extremely manipulative in doing schemes to gain easy notoriety, playing mindless games by writting thought less articles, disbelief in conventional system of morality, reckless disregard for others religions and faiths and emotions, consistent irresponsibility to honor or to respect others religions.
, this person appears to lack a conscience by the way of lack of remorse for these actions.
Such sadomasochistic person loves to cause others pain by being psychologically abusive, verbally abusive or physically and sexually abusive, who experiences extreme arousal and pleausre in inflicting pain on others and then in return from others. This person is co called moral sadomasochistic, who seeks humiliations and failures, rather than physical pains, they humiliate others faiths in their writtings to torture others with demeaning and humiliation to gain their arousal.Another evidence is such person has lack of concerns for their antisocial actions, they lack clear insight for the immediate environment with damage to the fronal lobe of this person`s brain.
This is exactly my analysis for the author of this article.
References:-LLD(vulnerability to delinquency)
Holmes J:- mis configuration and structured ambiguity.

PS:-This author needs insight oriented psychotherapy behind the bars. thanks

Alert`s perspective also brings to light a certain elitist view that deserves some sunlight. A random grouping of area extending from Hazara to Karachi, with immigrants of urbane backgrounds having to share identities on a single forum with the upshots of rural panchayat systems.. it is really unfortunate for either cultures to be exposed to the decadence of the other. Further proof that nationalism (atleast Pakistani) is futile and individual education is the way to go.

This isn`t unlike the Bible Belt traditionalists who after practising slavery, going to war over emancipation, resisting integration and civil rights for minorities and opposing abortion, gay rights and stem cell research, face off the metropolitans who breach values, advocating the profane and daring the unseen. Only the stakes are higher in US.

This is really in bad taste, I have lost what ever little respect I had for Chowk. If the Editors of Chowk think that this is an illustration of their `liberalism` they are mistaken, I think most Pakistanis et al are relegious to the point of believing in certains sets of `Iman- beliefs` Haj being one of them and `Iman` on the prophets, specifically on those mentioned in the Quran.

This is nothing but a balant case of out right blasphemy, don`t play with our beliefs. Rest that in peace, please

#47

{Even today there are countless families who remember their elders generation after generation, so anyone is going to discount the above evidance that Quraish considered Abrahim as their Great Grand father? }

At least this cannot be taken as evidence. What families remember of their elder generations may have been erroneous. Usually in this case other relatives who know the truth will keep their mouth shut because of respect or because of an attitude that these matters are really not too important. By the time Aisha used the expression, the expression might have already become something like a cuss word which a lady is allowed to speak. It may have become a figure of speech by then.

#110 einsteinwallah
OK.
Lets split the three of them, first and then attach their meaning together in a chain. It will be simpler for us to understand.
#1:delusional denial:-Delusions are false ideas, based on incorrect inference about external reality, not consistent with person`s intelligence and cultural background, can not be corrected by reasoning, absurd, totally implausible.
Denial:-Avoiding to abolish external reality.

#2:-Reaction formation:-Anal phase association, transforming an unacceptable impulse in to it`s opposite, like neuroses of any kind, if, is frequently used, becomes a permanent character trait.

#3:-recessed or recession:-Expelling or withholding from consciousness an idea or feeling. Conscious perception of instincts and feelings is blocked in repression, which is an attempt to return to an earlier libidinal phase of functioning to avoid the tension evoked at the present level of development, basic tendency to gain instinctual gratification at a less developed period.

If, you chain all of them together, you will come to know, what I meant?
Thank you for your precious time and interest.
Sincerely
Zeena

Zeena #86. Can you please explain what you mean by ``delusional denial with reaction formation in a recessed fashion``?

Thank you in advance.

precisely soysauce ji!

regards.

Dear Farzana Versey
Chief-editor
With all due respect.
So, it is allright with you, people to let this writer abuse our faiths and abuse pious ladies as this writer already did in above article.But, it is not OK for you, if, I stand firmly against this article. This wrtier has been harrassing me, stalking me and abusing me with all the name callings on unplugged for the last 1 year. You did not even do anything about that.

But, I guess, by publishing this article , you have proven that , if, you let him abuse our pious ladies and our prophets, this insane person is free to abuse anyone on chowk. Afterall, I am nothing as compared to our pious ladies and our prophets.
Thank you very much
Sincerely
Zeena

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#91 by masadi

Brother masadi,

Your `quran-awards-women-equitable-inheritence-thru-their-husbands-inheritance-alleluiah` is a classic, but since no one else is available, kaka will pretend that you have a brain.

Abrahams`s mention in random stories is not an issue here. It is unremarkably possible for an old geezer to contemplate killing a child or abandoning a concubine + child. And this is the point, THERE IS NO UNIQUELY IDENTIFYING EVENT ASSOCIATED WITH THIS GUY! This guy`s resume is so lackluster, that Brother Rizwaan had to pull the Granddaddy pagaent award out of his ass to give Abraham some credentials. While you are thinking this through, look up the word `ostension`.

Here`s list of heroes in the Islamic tradition and their claims to fame:

Adam* - If being the first man is an event, then this guy is in. Otherwise a hermeneutic afterthought

Eve - sells theories of female evil to latter generations

Cain and Abel- idiotic bickering

Noah* - The great Flood, even if some call him Gilgamesh

Abraham - an idiot, who thought and then changed his mind and then died. Lord be praised!

Lot* - Offered resistance to homosexual rapes (but offered his daughters for regular rapes??), got rewarded through a quick, salty divorce

Isaac/Ishmael/Jacob - irrelevant pawns in the geneology game

Joseph* - Went to Egypt, got Isrealites moving

Moses* - Rebel, Lawgiver, Main Man

Joshua/Deborah/Samson/Samuel/Nathan - kinda like Omar and Muaviyah?

Saul* - First king of Israel. Underrepresented in the scriptures

David* - Major Jihadist for Israel, conquered Jerusalem/Jebus

Solomon* - screwed Sheeba and lives on in Ethiopian legends (now this is a good example of historicity). Wisest guy around

Elijah/Elisha - Fantastic nonsense

Amos/Isaiah/Jeremiah etc - whatever

Daniel/Jonah - and the point is?

Ezra* - Compiled the torah. Did important work, are you listening Abraham?

Job - Second Abraham. Eeediot!

Zachariah/John the Baptist - Background music.. hehehe

Mary/Jesus* - Nevermind the supernatural healing, walking and wine-brewing and getting up from the dead, the Crucifixion was a public event (even if Quran has him saved etc). Hundreds of people must have watched. The rest is bullshit.

Peter/Paul* - they travelled, preached and were executed. Their ideas are still influential

Constantine* - hmmmmm

Mohammad* - Hijrah, conquering Makkah, providing a rationale for Arab expansionism

Omar/Muaviyah - Wheelers and Dealers

Mirza Qadiyani - still waiting for the Qadiyani revolution to take over the world

Rashad Khalifa - hahaha

Bin Laden* - reputation of having given America a hard time

kaka - wrote posts at night and played guitar during the day.

.
.

The people with the asterisk (*), have some historicity based on a uniquely identifying event. Abraham and others, couldn`t even win the Granddaddy award. That`s one of the things, kaka has been saying..

Alert,

Zeena has a panchayat background and is predictably boring. She`ll bring your mother into the discussion until you are no longer offended. She means well though and we all take turns having pity on her.

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#102 alert
alert jii aka kaka aka hamzaad
I do not enjoy this article. That is very obvious from my posts. B/c I am not pervert.
Yes, I do object each and every trash posted by by this trash called hamzaad. And, also I blame Farzana Versey more than this insane. For obvious reasons. She being the cheif ediotr , proved herself equal to the writer by publishing this insanity.

As for as hidden fantasies are, they are obvious by the supporters of this crap. So, you know, whos pervert and who is not.

Please, keep your hidden fantasies to yourself. Just go to some porno web site, where you can satisfy your apparent fantasies. Remember, I am saying (Only a pervert can appreciate this article)

No, I am not threatening this creep. I am seriously asking his phone number and address as this creep has had been harrassing and stalking me and calling me names. This sissy deserves a Pagal kutaiy kii death.

#85 Raw-Dustji
Yes indeed Bob Dylanji`s stuff is potent - look how he got to the crux of the matter with brutal language - no couching in soft language, no religious obfuscation - this is not ``sacrifice`` or propitiation, god says to KILL and ``Abe`` says where should the KILLING be done. God and Abe stand exposed as nasty, mean, and self-deluded characters...

reply:#99 and other 20 interacts by Zeena ji

Well Zeena ji I believe that you have taken the erotic side of this article too seriously, and it seems that it has triggered some hidden fantasies or some bad memories in you.

None of us are angels,monks,nuns or virgins like prophets, hence I can`t understand that why have you been personally threatening a free citizen and an intellectual like Hamzaad, or why are you trying to transfer your blame or guilt on Farzana Versey??

19 interacts from you out of 100 tells a lot about the insecurity or deep fantasies which this, article might have triggered in you,..and you again and again repeat ``rape from rear`` kind of wordings,..well I guess this article contains way more than that ..and try to understand the oppression and hegemony this abrahim guy brought on us due to his relationships with various women at the same time..and ``what his right hands possessed`` or concubines are other than that...

Arabs are winners and the smartest people,..paradise , air conditioners, satins, velvets, whiskies and white lucent beauties of this world....and janat al Firdous, hoor o Ghilman in the other world..

re:#81 by Urstruly
Dude,
You still live in US?
Can`t believe US is harboring such nut cases.
Sridhar

#98 einsteinwala
There is a vast difference between imposing and to make some person feel. Latter is to makeone realise and former is to push someone in to it. Thanks

I hope you now know, what I mean.

Yes, I have every right to stand against this article`s writer firmly. And, that is my feeling and I will never every surrender. Period.

If, Farzana versey is imposing such articles on us. Then we will retaliate with all our capacity.

#40 by Zeena on January 10, 2006 7:30pm PT

{I am not attacking any faith. I am just trying to make them feel to repect each and every faith. }

You cannot ``make them feel`` anything. Feelings come from within a person. You cannot impose from above.

#89 stop being so sensitive..and i will take back my criticism to make you feel better ;-)
and please dont stop writing the funny stuff.

now that alert #94 is some serious vitriol.

#89 awwww, looks like I have hurt poor kaka deeply...don`t worry beta, i`d still be gracious enough to own you any day...i could mellow you into a nice kid, trust me on this

#94, ignorance even when supplemented with sarcasm and a hotchpotch of stereotypical nonsense does not substitute for facts. Have you seen any scientific paper that seeks to support or refute facts written in this atrocious manner?

Well friends!!! I guess we must be able to appreciate some sacred fictional facts about imaginary heroes, which are presented in this satirical narrative.

Why we Indians get over emotional about ``honor`` of Arabs, are we suffering from deep inferiority complex??

Do we have any identity,culture or history of our own.???

My old and wise father who compromised and became a good Muslim, in order to get along with superstiteous ladies of his family.

He whispered to me that actually he belonged to ``kapoors`` of India, and Arab imperialists and children of Ismael snatched his culture from him.

I asked him about the beautiful looking brunette aborigines or natives of India , who got labelled as ``musalis``, ``deendars`` etc. and who live miserable lives in Pakistan at the mercy of children of Abraham known as ``syed`` badshahs in Pakistan.

These outsider so called Arab ``Syeds`` were so clever that contrary to the simple life style of holy prophet (pbuh),..they occupied lands and ``jagirs`` from Kaghan to Karachi, and made natives of India as ``deendars`` and eternal slaves.

My father also hinted about realities of life, and ``pait oor aurat ka chakar`` ( role of tummy and woman in man`s life) which Freud has elaborated and simplified for us.

He told me about construction of kaaba and that institution of haj as a source of permanent income, which existed before Islam.... and name of the supreme deity of pagans of Arabs was ``Allah``, thats why name of the father of holy prophet (pbuh) was abdullah (servant of Allah) who was born among pagans of Arabs......

History of bowing in front of sacred ``hajre aswad`` black stone, super natural deities,jinns, patriarchy,possession of women, land,cattle and sons as heirs and ``Piri Mureedi`` business goes back to our holy father Abraham.

So hamzaad my dear please do not snatch away my borrowed identity from me, I feel naked,helpless and Godless in this scientific world, which is too complicated for my superstitous and frightened psyche.

Thanks to Syeds badshahs for liberating me and giving me the gift of eternal life, my body, my land, my wealth and my songs are returned to them as a token of gratitude.

After all I am among the believers of the God of Abraham, and I am not among the thankless idiots, and hell goers.. scary..hell is scary...so better bend down and submit.

#91 read <<< Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants >>>

As <<< nothing scholarly in THIS article, on the contrary all it contains are half baked arguments and rants >>>

As we all know rants and half-baked arguments are not ``scholarly``

#91 read <<< Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants >>>

As <<< nothing scholarly in THIS article, on the contrary all it contains are half baked arguments and rants >>>

As we all know rants and half-baked arguments are not ``scholarly``

The author of this article is a bigoted ignoramus who is writing from total ignorance. Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants. He does not mention the fact that Abraham/Ibrahim is mentioned in the tablets uncovered in Ebla, together with the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah, 1500 years before the Torah by the way. It is clear that he (the author) uses kinder words for Jesus than for the others and is most derogatory of the prophet of Islam with ZERO evidence by the way. He even claims ignorance by stating, ``about whom much has to be false``. Who writes ``evidence papers`` in this fashion? Maybe much of what is written in the legends of the prophets is false but what is false is not proven in this fashion. And why Chowk is putting such garbage on its front pages is beyond me.

#89 kaka the shameless creature
And, your shameless culture is from Karachi`s streets where your mother got raped several times . Don`t blame me , you admitted yourself that your mother was dragged in the streets of Karachi by Urdu Ispeaking gangsters, who abuse and tortured your mother and raped her from behind, like you mentioned in your article about your mother.........remember....

Now, if Kaka had any equal, then kaka would get a similar clue that when kaka`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. and that is how you came in to this cruel and crazy wild world to bring garbage and nonsense in to this chowk.com.

Why don`t you try showing your mother`s history and your birth on other porno`s web site.
You see, how much sensitive you are for your own mother??? But, your nonsense and insensitivity is beyond words , what you did in this article and still you`re alive. I wish you a kutaiy kii death. I wish you die like people dragging you naked on the streets of Karachi and dogs eating every bit of your meat.

How do you know my background, when you don`t know me well enough? You have shown your dirty self thousand times to people and everyone knows you so very well. Why don`t you show us your picture and your virgin Marry mother`s picture, so, that we should know, whom we are dealing with?
You have been calling me names, you have been cyber harrassin me . I never took your dirty self seriously. But, this time, it looks like , I will for this article.

I challenge you. If, you have guts, give us your phone number, address and you will see, how your dirty self won`t be here for the rest of your miserable life, which already sucks.

You are just a computer sissy, typing any buk,buk any time with no mind. You are from Karachi`s low lying slums, where again,Now, if Kaka had any equal, then kaka would get a similar clue that when kaka`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. and that is how you came in to this cruel and crazy wild world to bring garbage and nonsense in to this chowk.com.

#78 by Urstruly

zeena`s opinion stems from her background of panchayat based culture, where female relatives are fair game for whatever offense the panchayat deems outrageous. Besides, according to saimasha, all of our mothers have been raped at one time or the other so zeena is hardly to be blamed.

What is interesting is the slap on the face by a mominah about your morals theory, the day after it was revealed to you. `Hope it was a good learning experience.

Jang and samina idiots,

What gets kaka furious is the expectations to be entertained by witless, walking mediocrities (`lacks humor`) all the time. This inane idiot (jang) is looking for humor in a deliberately abrasive vitroil. Talk about missing the point!! If this is legitmate criticism, then keep at it and soon kaka will stop even writing funny stuff!

Shobig,

Please step out of serf (kammi-kameen) mentality and realize that Russel is not the `lord of philosphy` who may or may not approbate philosophers.

Farzana Versey
And, thats the difference between insanity and point of view. Think with your white matter. Thanks

soysauce ji wrote:
``- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?``

i think, it is not about celebrating. dylan is painting a picture and at the same time being ironic about it (shifting the narrative`s time-space). image of god-abe talking is a dangerous one because for most of us it is rooted in our early childhood .. and he contrasts the retelling of this magical mythical tale with his deadpan delivery. the whole thing gets charged to giga orders of magnitude. powerful stuff.

From Farzana Versey`s Ilog from today,{{{{If nothing else, should this factor have been considered before I let someone bash up a religious icon? Does an individual opinion have this much validity that it can spoil someone’s festivities? Is religion not supposed to give some people strength and a feeling of security? Why do they get shaky at another point of view? }}}}

Farzana Versey
Dear cheif editor
Yes, you`re absolutely right nobody should get shaky at another`s point of view.I agree with you on this. Period.......
But, FV, what point of view you`re talking about? where is the point of view in this article?
All I see in above crap is humiliation of other people`s faiths and on top of everything humiliation of women by making cruel and disgusting remarks about rapes. And, by dragging our pious women as being raped.

There is a difference between point of views, which we can discuss with all the openess and between humiliation.

If, someone stands up and says, I don`t believe in this faith,b/c this faith doesn`t hold true facts(with out degrading and humiliating the faith and the pious ladies) , that is the point of view, which we call rational and we will discuss that with in the limits of decency.

But, if, you call the above piece of verbal diarrhea ,``point of view``, then tsk, tsk,tsk on your common sense, that you clearly failed to recognise the crystal clear difference between point of view and humiliation.

Well, in that case, if someone rapes an innocent girl and you are saying, that is OK to rape an innocent girl ,b/c it is freedom of choice and b/c it is your point of view to stand by the rapist. Then you clearly are in delusional denial with reaction formation in a recessed fashion, that you are unable to differentiate , what is the logic of point of view and what is the rationale of cruelty and humiliation?
Obviously, any rationale person will object to the rape, only insane won`t.

jang:
the basic concept is eternal damnation. (ED)

everyone is going to Hell except Momins. Momins` good-deeds outweigh their sins -> they will go to Heaven.

Muslims with sins will be sent to Hell and be cleansed from their sins by applying a pyro-technique on their bodies mixed in with some poisonous creatures. They will eventually go to Heaven. They do not come in ED category. So a murderer/rapist muslim will prolly spend 10000`s of years in Hell to pay for his horrible deeds but if he had died believing (even faintly) the concept of Oneness of Allah, he might get his salvation in the end.

Mulhids Apostates like me will be in the deepest (see ``lowest of the low`` in urstruly`s post) and the most intense chamber of Hell eternally. Strictly ED category.

Kaafirs will hierarchically be doing a little better than me (i.e. less intense fire etc.) But they also gonna be in Hell eternally. again ED`ed.

Pre-Islamic people of the Book who were loyal to Jesus` ``original`` message and early jews (who didnt betray their prophets and in the process broke the covenant with God) will also be accorded an eternal and pleasant stay in Heaven.

Heaven also happened to have its own categories and hiearachies but for people like you and I those are kinda irrelevant. :-)

hope this helps.

#79
I take Urstruly`s comments as , he believes in a structural system of specific sets of beliefs to have values to live in social circles. He believes , whoever doesn`t wish to bind to that very system of beliefs looses his/her values to be identified as a nice human being and regressed down to pre-civil era , when humans were living worst than animals with out any values.

I believe, the author of this article has regressed to pre-civivl era.

#78 Urstruly
Don`t forget in Islam, it is law that if, someone murders your loved ones, you can murder that person(or state will hang the person to death).
I am a very common person, who is a slave to her ego, I won`t rise above my ego,b/c my ego is my wisdom, which commands me NOT to surrender , if, I am right.

Urstruly (#81):

… I don’t think you get it ... people here are making fun of you.

By posting elaborate (idiotic) explanations of your faith, you are only coming across as a bigger clown than originally suspected. Keep quiet and try to avoid providing proof that you indeed are a low-IQ jihadi.

I’m only trying to help you … you know …

#81 thanks. so is a murderous momeen (say who does some bad things, but is otherwise a almost true believer) better than a good kaffir or mushriq? or in your framework (i mean gods framework) its just not possible?

#80 by jang


The order ordained by God is as such:

Apostates = Mulhid; Hypocrites=Munafiq - Lowest of the Low -

These people once beleived in the Oneness of Allah and then because of their misfortune they lost hope in Him and turned against Him or they invented new belief system. They become enemies of God and do everything in their capacity to drive innocent human beings from the path of God. It is strictly fobidden to keep any social interaction with these people. Quadianis fall into this category.

Atheists= Kafir - the worst

They do not believe in the existence of God either by birth or they reverted from some other religion other than Islam into atheism. They actively propagate their religion of ``unbeleief``. Social interaction with these people is permitted but discouraged.


Polytheists = Mushriq - really bad

They believe in One God but also believe in smaller dieties that share power with One God. Hindus fall in this category. The social intercation with these people is permitted.


Agnostics = ? - bad THese people are doubters. However, unlike Atheists they do not promote their religion of ``doubt``. Social interaction with these people is permitted.

People of Book=Ehl-e-Qitab i.e. Jews & Christians, in some cases Hidus and Zoroastrians as well OK

Jews and Christians are in fact early Muslims who made changes in the basic message of God, becuse of the compulsion of time. Social Interaction with these people is permitted but it is advised that they should not be trusted in temporal affairs. In wordly affairs they can be as trustworthy as any other human being be it Muslim or non-Muslim.

Believers = Momins the best

These are Muslims who with the best of their human capacity not only constantly try to keep themselves on the right path but also convey the message of righteousness to others (regardless of religion) as well. This is actually the definition of Muslim that Quran has defined.

methinks urstruly puts hindu-kafirs above atheist..hallelujah.

urstruly, pls enumerate the order explicitly, thanks.

#54 & #56

Ustruly,

Please humour us and explain what you mean by
``I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values``...
``So when an agnostic has no hope, then logically he would not have any value``

So in your view, only religion can install ``values`` in a person`s life and in society? You think so little of man`s own intellectual capacity and awareness of what is morally ``right`` and ``wrong`` that he`s incapable of adopting a set of values in the absence of religious guidance?

Incidentally, you also seem to be confusing atheists with agnostics. Agnostics don`t reject the existence of God. They simply have no evidence of God`s existence, but also don`t disbelieve in him as they have no evidence that he doesn`t exist either.

#77 by Zeena

That was an unfortunate post; I think you should have resisted the urge of your ego to stoop that low from the system of values you hold dear. I don`t think that it gets clearer than this:

The Women 4:148

``Allah does not like that a person should utter evil words except one when he has been wronged``


An argument can be made that since the author of this article has wronged us therefore he deserves the taste of his own medicine, but no, we are charged with a bigger responsibility than this and it is bigger than us and our ego. Why? Because the next verse says:

``(Though you are allowed to give expression to evil words, if you have been wronged) yet if you go on doing good openly or secretly or at least refrain from evil, you should know that Allah is Forgiving, whereas He is All Powerful to Punish``

This is the value system that all Prophets, Sufis, Saints, Sadhu, and Monks practice, that is, they resist the urge to give in to their urges to satisfy their ego. That is how they find Kashf and Nirvana. That is how they become immortal while those who abuse them get lost in oblivion.

There is a deep psychological understanding embedded in the verses cited above. Consider this that, though you protested and even made the author taste his own medicine but you may still not be satisfied. Your ego must be urging you to do more. So in other words no matter what you do, it is your defeat and submission to your ego. Whereas, simultaneously it is a great victory for the author because he was able to drag you down to his level and now for a third person there is no difference between you and him.

Now, if the KAKA had any equal, then KAKA would get a similar clue that when KAKA`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. KAka`s mother got raped from behind, that is why kaka shit out this verbal diarrhea and now, eating it .

Now, if the KAKA had any equal, then KAKA would get a similar clue that when KAKA`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. KAka`s mother got raped from behind, that is why kaka shit out this verbal diarrhea and now, eating it .

aaw kaka, dont get grumpy an all, you did attempt clowning ...

e.g.
``Poor Ibrahim, full of faith, was looking for miracles and ignored foul play, attributing the whole thing to the Lord. And the ladies and their lovers sighed in relief... ``

``Anyway, a harassed Ibrahim must have sacrificed a lot of his favorite cows and baseball cards before he went to sleep as usual.``

and i thought pinkie-twinkie series had a lot of home-truths ..

awwwww poor kaka...let him play with his pinkie and twinkie...;)

Looks like kaka is hell bent on growing up into the next N F Paratha of Chowk, so no wonder this piece of crap is as lame and pathetic an attempt at humour as most of NFP`s wriings are, perhaps even more.
I disagree, it`s not offensive at all...it`s just utterly dreadful...for no one gives a shit to what a self-aggrandizing lowlife kaka-next-door hallucinates about or what he has to say about Ibrahim (AS) and his followers...I believe even Russel turns in his grave each time someone reads the words `a rogue philosopher`...

re:

``kaka is not your clown to amuse you or respect your feelings.``

Clearly, Kaka is not. So, what IS the point of this piece? If Kaka can`t take some legitimate feedback, Kaka should get the heck out of the kitchen...

``Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.`` Bob Dylan quoted by soysauce

soysauce ji -- now that`s one masterly piece of satire.......on the same myth -- without involving poor Virgin Mary....

Jang and other idiots,

kaka is not your clown to amuse you or respect your feelings. For humor, check out the Pinkie and Twinkie adventure series . This was just to separate idiots from the non-.

This article is blasphemous , this b*s*ard has no respect for others , I think it’s a fashion now to be Salman Rushdie wanabe . I wish you hell , where your skin is taken out everyday and the process repeats for thousands of years.

kaka khan,

This article is offensive, lacks humor, devoid of poetry (not a problem in itself) and seems to have somewhat banal criticism of the events/personalities.

Compare that to the ``alternative`` tulsi-ramayan. Very poetic and really funny..i wish its available online and someone posts a link.

Hasanji,

Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.``

- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?

Hasanji,

Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.``

- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?

Come on, folks, get a hold of yourselves. I read the article and your various comments. It seems that if Kaka had a head, you would all be demanding it on a platter - a la John the Baptist, who is Yahya Allaissalaam for you Muslims. :) Please get off your moral high horses and stop the Salome act. Enough is enough. Your intolerance is rapidly overshadowing Kaka`s nonsense. You are doing for Kaka what Muslims of another time did for Salman Rushdie, and other proliferators of bland, meaningless, and offensive rhetoric disguised as ``literature.`` Having said that, we need to understand what has been written. Why? If for no other reason than the fact that it is published here. :)

What Kaka seems to be doing, albeit in a somewhat offensive manner, is to question the relevance of old Semitic, mostly Jewish, legend to the present, mostly non-Semitic Muslims of the subcontinent. The idea of sacrificing virgins, first-borns, or even animals seems very primitive and pagan to many of us. How can a loving, compassionate God test His creation by having them sacrifice their first-born in a bloody display of total obedience? Why is such practice considered inhumane when performed by pagans like Romans, Egyptians, and worshippers of Kali Mai? Besides, the whole Old Testament is tantamount to a very biased and bizarre history of the Chosen People. Once you get past the ``begats`` in Genesis and how various famous men ``went into`` their respective women, there is one gory story after another about how the Lord helped the Jews slaughter their opponents. Does all this baggage really belong as a part of a religion claiming to be universal, egalitarian, and rational?

I noticed something very interesting in this article. It seems that Kaka, either in a stroke of brilliance or unintentionally, totally avoided the controversy of whether it was Ishmael, the first-born from Hagar or Isaac, the son of Sarah, who was the intended victim of the bloody sacrifice. That is the real story here - the rivalry of the Arab and Jewish cousins in claiming the ``honor`` of almost having been put under the knife for God the Almighty. And to think that we make fun of the pagans and their unbelievable epics. :)

``This is a thought-provoking article...``(soysauce)

what kind of `thoughts` -- Soysauce ji.....:)

I guess the brouhaha is to be expected. Believers are easily hurt when their myths are attacked. HOWEVER, why exactly is abraham such an exalted figure and what exactly is the sacrifice that is so gorily celebrated?
This is a thought-provoking article and I applaude FV for choosing to publish it.
Hasanji, what is your objection?

re: 61

Sattar Sahib,

Thats okay....having read your post, I updated my subscriptions to Klezmer! Today, and Citizens Concerned About the Advancement of White Folks, edited by Sam Alito. ;)

(re #58)
... sorry, I meant #56 ...

# 56

I think you are confused as to what values are. Here is a list. Which one do you think comes from a belief system as in religion. (With help from google)

Which faith has monopoly on these values? Why agnostics or atheist can`t share these values with the believers?

``Values are ideals that guide or qualify your personal conduct, interaction with others, and involvement in your career. Like morals, they

• help you to distinguish what is right from what is wrong and
• inform you on how you can conduct your life in a meaningful way.

Values can be classified into four categories:
• Personal Values
• Cultural Values
• Social Values
• Work Values

Personal Values: Caring Courage Creativity Friendliness Honesty Honor IndependenceIntegrity Spirituality

Cultural Values: Celebration of Diversity Ethnic roots Faith Linguistic ties National ties Regional ties Tradition

Social Values: Altruism Diversity Eco-consciousness Equality Fairness Family closeness Lovingness Morality Reliability

Work Values: Autonomy Competitiveness Conscientiousness Dedication Equanimity/Ethics Loyalty Professionalism Punctuality Remunerative worth Team player ``

Are there some other values that come from dogma that you are refering to?

Ps. I know too many questions but I am just trying to figure out what you actually mean by values.
Thanks.

# 56

A lot of assumptions there. I haven’t seen an agnostic who is rabidly anti human. And no, they don’t hate God because they don’t believe there is one. Besides they are not angry, some are perhaps exasperated at irrationality of believers. On the other hand religious fanatics have killed again and again.

#55 … and the hatred you feel towards whites folks, Jews, Ahmadis, and what-not … is a part of your religious values? What bubble are you living in??

And since when killing a person for rejecting your god become synonymous with loving the mankind?? Actually it is quite the opposite … isn’t it??

Either you are too cunning or too blind. Neither of the two is admirable.

#47 by Rizwan

Brother Rizwan,

Eed Mubarak and thank you for reading the article and, unlike others, making meaningful remarks. It is indeed for people like yourself that it is worth drugding in the khraafaat of the scriptures.

1. `alluded to no accomplishment of Ibrahim/the most respected Grand father`

Yes, Brother Rizwan. This is a point of frustration for kaka. Abraham just THOUGHT about sacrificing his son (the sickening part is that he almost did it). Compare this historical inaction with kaka`s THOUGHT of giving away half a billion dollars to the tsunami earthquake. None of the above happened. Just thoughts. As much as Abraham needs to be admired/condemned for his.. THOUGHTS, there is no historicity to his existence unlike the other men mentioned. This is assuming that no slaughtering happened.. unless you believe it did like some advertisers in 80s Pakistan.. Do you remember `Hazrat Ismaeel kay shaami kabaab`? How do you think they preserved the meat for thousands of years? Any Quranic science involved in this?

About the most amazing super duper grandfather award.., you are simply mistaken. Time magazine has already awarded this tamgha to this tranny on 48th street. Abraham was a close second, but got points shaved off for entertaining thoughts about wiping out his progeny.

2. `Secondly, real sacrifice was leaving Ismael in desert at a young age,/he was climbing up a hill ( is there any historical base for such assumption).`

Rizwan, my brother in Islam. Real sacrifice is leaving yourself in the desert at any age in your life. Leaving your son and concubine in the desert because you had too much to drink the previous night, gets you 10 years mandatory for criminal negligence reducible to 10 months on grounds of insanity. And you call this guy super duper daadaa abbaa?

Brother Rizwaan, please believe kaka that Abraham was climbing some hill or the other at some point of his life and contemplating slaughtering cow, goat, son, chicken, grapefruit etc. This isn`t like walking on water or splitting the moon, is it?

3. `Hajar Aswad was known to Arabs before Muhammad and had been associated to Abrahim by Quraish of that time; should we just discard this evidance?`

The Black Stone is not the same kidney stone that Abraham have had removed with the help of Akhtar Nai. The kidney stone was grounded to make surma for young Ismael`s slaughtering ceremony. The Black Stone is too big to be Abraham`s kidney stone and cannot be associated or owned by Abraham in any way.

4. `Aisha would say ``in the name of Rab of Abrahim``, this is another evidance.`

Brother, the story of Abraham in the Bible precedes any Aisha Paisha. Nobody is disputing that an old man with intentions to kill his son may have existed 5-10 (?) thousand years ago. They may have been several of them. kaka is just calling them potential murderers.

urustruly,

kaka is not an atheist. He believes that Allah exists. Its just that He is not to be paid much attention to. Is that a bad thing to say, brother?

# 55

Good point. Allow me to explain it with an example. Ask this question to the most rabid and vitriolic religionist, e.g a Hindu, that the hatered and anger that he expresses towards Muslims, for example, is it something mandated by his religion or is it a choice that he made? He would vigorously shake his head left and right and try to explain how beautiful and all inclusive his religion of Hinduism is and how it promotes love among all human beings. Same is true for any religion. Each and every religion teaches the value of love for the fellow human being as one of the most basic value. When a religionist expresses his hatered towards other human beings, he does so by violating that value; and he is conciously aware of it and yet his ego and his frustration is so strong that he ``choses`` to turn a blind eye towards his conscience. In this case there is a hope that one day he might respond to the constant poking of his conscience and mend his way.

But agnostics and atheists are a different kind of human beings. They are not angry with human beings but they are angry with God and reject Him and His values. The only way to express their anger is to take it upon their fellow human beings because God is above all that. He is absolute. He does not need our prayers and He is above the rebuke of humans. That is the reason Qura`n labels Rejectors and Agnostics or Kafirs as people who have lost hope. Logically, what aspiration a living entity would have if his universe is limited to fulfilling only his inherent desires. Religion has shown man that he is meant for something greater than that. His universe is greater than what he percieves with five senses; it is more expansive beyond the tip of his nose.

So when an agnostic has no hope, then logically he would not have any value. Values would force him to pull him out of the bubble he is most comfortable in. If you look at it, every value in this world is based on dogma; the empirical eveidence that we gather from our observations attest that values benefit us. If value is right then dogma that brought in that value must also be correct. In the last couple of centuries people like