An Alternative Spelling of Eed

I think this post is offensive.

All id like to say is, before you completely change who Ibrahim is sposed to be, just remember that there are millions out there who happen to believe in what the Quran says, and do believe, that Ibrahim indeed was a great man. Before pointing fingers at him, just remember that for us, he is still a part of our religion, we respect him, and he is a part of our faith. You have compltely changed who Ibrahim is truly supposed to be in your article, and i just want you to know that by doing so, you are insulting our faith, you are insulting us. Kindly refrain from doing so.
Yes, nasah this post is offensive.

Has lashing out at Islam, and its respected pioneers become a fashion at chowk?!

ROFL.. very funny..

I don`t know the real story, it could have been more fun if i had known how the story was told..

This article doesn`t make any sense other than to degrade Ibrahim in an offensive way. An article thats attempting to be funny, but ends up being offensive and in bad taste.

I know its all the rage nowadays to question religion and what have you, but a little respect does no harm!

Don`t you chowkies have any policy regarding articles.Is this your standard of freedom of expression?. Any idiotic bas*ard can scribble few lines on any topic under the booze induced halucinations and you people put this ``masterpiece`` on your front page to show your neutrality or secularism.
You guys are filthy beyond description.

`When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense.`

Before anyone accuses kaka of not knowing the difference between `virgin birth` and `immaculate conception`, below is the original with the unfixed spelling `mistakes` that chowk staff seems to have `corrected`.

http://www.chusni.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000025;#000006

Dear Farzana Versey
This article is just crap. So, this is the standard of chowk to publish any stupid crap. Absolute NONSENSE.

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To the author: Chill....relax.

To Chowk: LOL...f*ck you too...

...as i have been saying all along chowk`s anti-muslim, anti-pakistan bias seems to be getting stronger since the arrival of chowk`s indian editor... if the purpose is to denigrate all things pakistani or all things muslim then chowk has achieved it`s target... btw this crap was condemned by all at chusni in 2003 which is when this drivel by kaka aka hamzaad was posted on a thread celeberating Eid... shame on chowk , it`s editor and it`s owners for insulting a large number of muslims, jews and christians alike...

It is not just offensive, it is outrageously offensive! A little humor might have put some life in the article.
I can see the veins standing out on some foreheads. Please just don’t have a blowout. ;<)

Sometimes real crap gets published in journals, and sometimes really great stuff has to struggle to get the approval of the editors. We just have to believe that there is something in the article that caught the editor’s eye and imagination.

Religion is a clumsy farrago of myths and wishful thinking and old traditions which is irrelevant to our understanding of reality, and in fact often impedes our understanding. We lose nothing if it goes away. As people recognize its lack of utility, something that often (but not necessarily) happens as we learn more about science, it fades away.

Myths should be challenged. What does not meet the reality must either be ridiculed or put in the right perspective. I support publishing of this article as sometimes it is necessary to look at the intellectual value in the writing too.

The story of Abraham has many holes. But how those holes should be handled? This article has a personal touch bordering on venom about a story which everyone knows would not stand the test of logic.

I just think that the editors should have removed venomous edges from the article to make it a good dissection of the story of Abraham.

“then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin).”

Palpable! could have been said with a little humor to make it livelier.

Unless some believers deploy mythology to perpetrate mischief and injustice against nonbelievers, it is best to avoid dragging mythical personae through the mud.

There is a similar, but breathtakingly beautiful ancient Indian story of Raja Harishchandra. These stories are not supposed to be true and logical. They are supposed to be beautiful, instructive, and timeless.

Eid mubarak.

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I have never understood how we can associate sacrifice with Gods. They way we assign attributes to Him, sacrifice and worship can only please Satan!

KAKA,
You are WEIRD!...and so is your write up.

Finally something worth reading amongst the boring banal stuff that usually occupies the space.

No offense taken.

My friend you belong to the wrong faith to pull these stunts off. Let us hope no calls for violence and ostracism are made here and elsewhere.

Satire and leg-pulling are fine for deluded western christians, excessively liberal jews and cowardly hindus or buddhists. In these retarded civilizations, you can immerse a cross in urine, make jokes about moses and jesus, throw chappals at moorti of Rama, write a filmi spoof on the mahabharata. The stupid buddha fellow even made jokes about himself as unnecessary and unimportant in the big picture of things.

How dare you malign the truly noble faith (even tho` this fanatic Abraham is actually borrowed from the jews :-) !! Have you no shame !

``What kaka has done with the alternative account of Eed celebration, is to take away the supernatural elements of a powerful story about love for one`s children, responsibility for one`s cattle and the water cycle and endowed it with the believabilty of a socio-economo-psycho perspective. ``(Hamzad)

now this paragraph IS funny.......:)

...it is a pity that to retain ‘popularity’ Chowk has to resort to flimsy tabloid yellow. it is delusional to think of this Chowk under the ever-whiner as an iconoclastic avatar of her usual diatribes....
..this atrociously written and edited piece appears to be a deliberate attempt to create a divide on the second most important holiday for muslims. shame on chowk editors and publishers...

...while hamzaad suffers from dementia i wonder how long this policy to deliberately provoke and scandalize its readership would last? the only thing worse than this atrocious piece is his response # 13...

ps: i am sure you all know what a ``lullee`` is...just the right thing for the article and chowk-;)

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As editor I stand by the publication of this piece. Re. its quality of writing or ideas expressed, I assume the readers have a choice to ignore or to vocalise their point of view.

It is topical and takes a stand, whether or not one agrees with it. That is the bottomline where an article on `In Site` is concerned.

Should anyone have another POV that is eulogistic but has a definite perspective, they are welcome to send it.

As a writer I have not spared icons, religious or otherwise, and borne the brunt of disagreement.

The same standards apply across the board and am glad that there are voices that can fathom that.
- - -

To the writer: Yes, I have edited out bits...cuss words. You might like to thank me for that.

#13 hamzaad,

thanks for the writeup... both the original and the satire.. it is funny..

usually, these stories portray some kind of motives about the story teller. I wonder if this dude suspected the birth of his child (when he was 100) and decided to kill by invoking god`s name. The second story about leaving his concubine and the child by invoking god makes perfect sense..

:-))

It is hurtful. Kaka/HP and Salman Rushdie are the same man.

The writter of this article is just a shameless creature who does not have an IQ of even 20 to handle a word, called (respect and honour).

and, then due to his mental deficiency, is unable to apply that socially.

Well, My dear Farzana versey,
If, publishing this piece pf crap makes you feel more POWERFUL and over controlled as a cheif editor, I may not respect you as a cheif editor, that I began to do.

I object to this crap, which is not even funny.

This nick has been posting crap before, no body pays attention to. He is craving for attention. So, he found another retarded way of getting attention by dis respecting people`s faiths.

If, Chief editor stands by this retard for his this crap. Then I have all the right to stand against this crap. Seeing this article, I must say, Farzana Versey, Chowk sucks. Now, delete my post.

Dear Farzana Versey
Chief editor of chowk.com
Dear Madam
Let me remind you of chowk guide line, which need to implement on Front Page, which is very important reflection for the whole chowk.

In order to protect this freedom for all Chowkwalas, it is necessary to adhere to the rules of good conduct as spelled out below.

Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, religion or other personal discriminations.

PS:-It is sad that I have to remind you of this guideline. While you are chief-editor, who should do this job. Sorry, Farzana dear, by publishing this piece of retarded crap, you did not fullfill your job with all honesty of your heart. You are equally culprit for victimizing peoples faiths for no reason along with this retard.

Do you think, this piece of crap will take chowk far? Absolutely NOT.
Yes, it will take it`s chowkies FAR., which will start avoiding chowk like a plague.
Thank you very much .

Farzana,

Your response almost seems automated. That is to say, it`s entirely predictable.

The timing is what is at issue here, and is (rightly) seen as a deliberate stab at Muslims.

There is little academic merit to this article, and it`s tone and arguably it`s purpose is no doubt to do exactly what many of us perceive - jab, jab, jab...yuck yuck. Eid f*cking Mubarak, you stupid Muslims. Yeah, haven`t heard that one before...

Since when has juvenile provocation served as a merit for publication? I take that back...since when has such provocation served as a standard for a QUALITY publication? There is unplugged, no?

The concern is that if chowk degenerates into a stance where it essentially passes off troll-bait as article-material, then the consequences for the site as a whole (if we take this as a trend and not an oversight) in terms of who it attracts as readers/interactors or even publishers seem dire.

The article itself is banal enough to dismiss...it`s no DaVinci code. But the whole ``it`s eid, let`s stick it to the Muslims`` thing gets a bit tired...

Having f-u articles inspire nothing but f-u interacts...is this what Chowk is about? Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! I got other places to get that kind of attitude...

Farzana Versey
Is that what you want chowk to be? Is that where you`re leading chowk to? Is that what you call intellectualism with unflinching idealism is? Is this the chowk, where people spend their precious times and energies , just to read this piece of crap, which is degradation to chowk and to other`s faiths?

Is chowk unable to attract chowkies and now, is doing all these third rated publications to have more viewers? What is the point here??

Seriously, I do not understand. Why ? Why hitting on people`s faith? What message does Farzana Versey wishes to convey to us, by publishing this extremely offensive article.

Farzana versey
Why do you think, we should read this humiliation for other`s faiths. Even, if, they will humiliate sikhs, hindus or anyother faiths, it is hurtful.

I agree with Farzana -- no censorship on Chowk -- it is distasteful on chowk as anywhere else....

howeve the editor has every right to edit the writer and ask the author for the rewrites and revisions of the manuscript upteenth times -- the editor can amend, delete, modify passages, paragraphs, sentences, words with writer`s consent......

A biting good satire on chowk or anywhere does not need the use of expletives -- is more implied than the explicit kamasutra positions....for Virgin Marys -- making the article unnecessarily vulgar and offensive...please

Farzana Versey
I will never agree with you on this.
OK, No censorship on chowk, if, we go by your logic. Then, chowk should be open for xxx rated pictures, esp. on front page, believe me, it will be more tasteful ( or it won`t be distasteful) for crap loving people. You will attract more and more vieweres and chowk will be more popular with real unflinching ideas.

Try that. Why not? If, you can publish this crap, then, why not xxxx crap on chowk front page? No censorship. Wild, wild , wild world.

#21

As editor I stand by the publication of this piece.
…so gallant.

Re. its quality of writing or ideas expressed, I assume the
readers have a choice to ignore or to vocalise their point of
view.
…this is also par for the course.

It is topical and takes a stand, whether or not one agrees with
it.
…so you are the New Prophet Abraham in your puny mind? The new idol breaker? On this Holy Day you chose to put this atrocious
piece out here?

That is the bottomline where an article on `In Site` is concerned.
…``bottomline`` is TWO words. second phrase is very oblique. speak plainly.

As a writer I have not spared icons, religious or otherwise, and
borne the brunt of disagreement.
…yes i know what a Great Whiner you aspire to be. just
because you get your kicks by taking contrarian positions on almost
every topic you think every one else should do the same?...right??

To the writer: Yes, I have edited out bits...cuss words. You might
like to thank me for that.
…cuss words? is that all you saw in this atrocious diatribe? did
you look at your calendar? did you say to yourself `ah wonderful,
let`s give them muslims a treat?`

…simply put this is nothing but a deliberate effort to be provocative. And like other articles appearing here recently this thinly disguised atrocity is distasteful, and you know it so do we…

Buck raha hun junooN meiN kya kya main
Kuch na samjhay khuda karay koi

this cloud has a at least one silver lining -- now nobody should accuse Farzana of being partial to Muslims.....:-)

Farzana Versey
Seriously, if, you have less numbers of chowkies. And, you believe in no censorship, make this chowk more open by posting xxx rated picutres, which won`t be distasteful. At least, chowk will attract millions of perverts, just like this writter. More and more perverts and more and more popularity. At the end, chowk will change it`s name to pervert.com , x-rated.chowk.perverted. com.

And, when xxx rated pictures would be successful. Then try showing xxx rated perverted movies on chowk, so, that will be more business.

If, you wish thoings should go in that direction, OK be it.

The stuff about rape is very offensive. Rape may be a common currency of satire for some people, I wonder why? Is it to make the act of rape more acceptable socially? Then why doesn`t the author write satirically about castration to make that act more acceptable socially as well?

I don`t know the story of Abraham so can`t comment on the rest.

article is not offensive unless one sees the whole story as logical. not that being offensive or provocative is something as necessarily negative.

hamzaad, if the reader could be implicated into the story by proxy (like applying a more sympathetic tone perhaps?) the payoff could be even bigger. :-)

next stop : Muharram and Karbala story. thats like a month from now. Eid Mubarak .!

Now this is funny..I agree with Wolfe.

Why do you people get so upset about dead fairy tale characters who lived 5000 yrs ago and 8000 miles away. I mean really folks. Don;t like it..wrap a suicide belt and stuff yourself in the toilet.

IN a world rife with conspiracy theories..4000 jews missing from wtc...6 gerbils running the world from within bill gates` ass...you guys have to cast aspersions on someone writing satire.

If Ibrahim has a problem..tell him to get his namard ass here and confront Hamzaad. Be a man about it.

Although I am a hindu, I find this article disgusting. I wouldnt like it if someone insulted my mythology like this and I can understand why muslims will find this terrible.

Farzana Versey
And, you think, you`re being open to all kinds of articles by permitting freedom of expression. In, that case, when you selected this article for publishing? Did you think for a moment that this article is very narrow minded and fanatic mullahish unsuccessful attempt to target certain faiths?

You proved yourself worst than extremist, fanatic religious mullahs, who out of their own extremely limited mind set and vision don`t waste any attempt to target certain other faiths and also women.

Do you know, what real modernism and real freedom is? Let me tell you, what it is?
It is to free your mind out of all prejudices, narrowmindedness to absorb all faiths through the passage of acceptance and respect, while honouring other`s feelings with equality.

oh boy, now you`ve done it Farzana.... the publication of this piece of trash proves that anything and everything lacking substance or effort will be and can be published on chowk these days....

that said, the content of this piece of trash is not offensive, the fact that hamzaad`s verbal diarrhea was published IS

:)

hamzaad,

it`s not your fault.... if anything, i gotta hand it to you for your timing and passing through the open gates at the right time and the right place.

I`m surprised at the comments, trash / disgusting / offensive etc..etc..

Attacking one set of beliefs is always the above for the believers.. I wonder what the pagans / polytheists thought when Muhammad was busy breaking idols in Mecca..

#39
I am not attacking any faith. I am just trying to make them feel to repect each and every faith.

Well, it looks like you`re a big supporter of this piece of trash or crap. i call anyone who is supporter of this trash(pervert).

Ps:- If, you wish to discuss about Muhammad(PBUH). Open another thread just like this and humiliate our prophet same way as this pervert did in this thread. You will be honoured with publication of your great and funny article by our chief editor. This article reflects her taste. Off, course great taste.

May be, if, you will continue humiliating our Prophets, FV will resign and will announce you as a chief editor for next term. B/c she will benefit chowk more and more to choose people who will humiliate prophets the most. So, 1,2,3 go and start typing this crap. Believe me, you don`t need any mind to think. You can type any crap with all these words of wisdom(as per FV) and also, you can post xxxxx rated pictures and cyber xxxx movies, if, you really wish to be popular and if you really wish to be the top most writer with out any mind on chowk. Who cares for others faiths? Just stick to these guide lines and you will be the, chosen lucky one.

sorry for typo
It is respect.

#22 by masanamuthu on January 10, 2006 10:59am PT

`I wonder if this dude suspected the birth of his child (when he was 100) and decided to kill by invoking god`s name. The second story about leaving his concubine and the child by invoking god makes perfect sense..`

masanamuthu,

First of all Eed Mubarak! kaka boiled an egg today for qurbaani.. kaka is glad that you enjoyed the write-up. It is for people like you that kaka.. okay enough BS!

The soap opera qualities of the complex relationships in Greek and Indian mythologies do not lend themselves to what could be called `scribal editing` or `pious frauds`. kaka shall discuss textual analysis in Hindu mythology in another write-up but for now, be aware that what we Muslims call `Israaliyaat` has a documented history of embedded agendas within storytelling and various groups at various times have influenced the collection and editing of canon based on the politics that they engaged in at the time. Keeping that in mind, a character named Abraham is no more than an agent of their own interests within the texts that they deem are important (they being the rabbis in control of the normative tradition). Therefore, to ascribe any intentionality to Abraham as regards to his attitudes towards his wife or children is futile. Even the radically moronic behavior of Abraham which kaka has mocked, such as abandoning concubine + child in the desert, is really a moral lesson of how seriously Allah should be taken or `what seems bad now, turns good later` etc. Probably no abandoning ever happened. It is just the force of a narrative which solidifies a certain kind of `pious` behavious vis-a-vis Allah`s mercy/terror.

It is without any doubt, THAT compliance to THAT standards. that kaka is mocking. Again, Abraham is merely a pawn in kaka`s narrative. The old fool probably died being frightened of lightening and thunder (However, there is the problem of which fool, in what century, with what identifying quality that is being referred to. That is called the problem of ostension). kaka has also successfully plugged in assumptions that would take a man to slaughter a child, without resorting to any supernatural. kaka hopes that the narrative was believable if not hilarious.

sadna,

It is with great sadness that kaka has noted your bewilderment at the `rape story`. Maybe because, Versey changed `aqal/sense` to `equal` in the beginning of that paragraph that caused some confusion. kaka was merely pointing out that if the Christians took the rape of Hazrat Miriam (may be upon peace her) as a plausible start of events (the rest of the details about her being frightened or ignorant of her rapists IS JUST THE FORCE OF NARRATIVE COMPLETING A STORY), then dogmas like `immaculate conception` or `virgin birth` would not have controlled the normative tradition of sex and Orginal Sin among the Catholics. The rape of Mary is not exactly kaka`s innovation but the liberating logic that accompanies a series of logical events sans the supernatural is certainly kaka`s cross to carry.

Lastly, the issue of appropriating respect and offense to a padestal where a public forum caters to your sensibilities: kaka has little but his pity to offer. Also on offer is an education and insight out of the padded cacoon of your existence to a world where nobody cares about your feelings. It is just as cold as that.

#40:

Don`t get angry at me.. This whole concept of ``respecting each and every faith`` sounds like baloney to me.. But I agree that at face value..I understand you have great respect for all the prophets and all the religions.. No problem with that.

Let me talk about this scenario..Think about the poster ``hamzaad`` as the prophet of the new religion ``hamzaadism`` where his god revelaed to him about the true story about Ibrahim/Abraham and told him that there were good prophets before him from Ibrahim/Musa/Isa/Muhammad but their messages have been corrupted and right now in 2006 he is THE prophet..

In this article, he is just narrating the revelation he received from the God whose name will be given later (hamzaad dude, i can`t invent everything, you coin a good name)..

Now this is a new religion and I am the first convert (I hope..). Now according to your statement of respecting each and every faith, you have to respect my faith too and stop blaspheming my prophet hamzaad..

How does this sound??. :-))

Bravo
Farzana Versey
Carry on with this crap and more crap in future along with xxx rated pictures that you will need for unflinching ideas to enhance the creative creepy environment on chowk to gain popularity.

Next, time, my suggestion for you is to come up with another piece of trash like this about Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). Not, only that, why don`t you reserve one front page column for humiliation of all Prophets, that would make this chowk site more attractive. Seriously, that would be real UNFLINCHING.

Ps:-So, my feedback for you is, to encourage more and more pervert writers to humiliate faiths. And, there is a great chance, you or chowk will be nominated for noble peace prize of honour. Who knows?

An open invitation to every TOM, DICK and HARRY to humiliate all the prophets and get bonuses by chowk staff. Thanks

hamzaad#42
Whatever the reality, it was far better that reverence was commanded for a dogma of Immaculate Conception rather than for a dogma of rape. That is this layman`s pov.

#42
PS:But I get the sense of what you are saying, so no need to be ``sad`` on my account.

I have not read anything more bigoted then this article, before. Let me share a possible explanation about last paragraph, where he mentioned about accomplishments of several prophets and alluded to no accomplishment of Ibrahim.

When Ibrahim have no second thought about sacrificing his only son at that time then God spread his off-springs to all over the world, and he is the most respected Grand father even after thousands of years. A point worth pondering in relation to Eid today, sacrificing your esteemed best loved thing for Allah, does not go unrewarded.

Secondly, real sacrifice was leaving Ismael in desert at a young age, where there is no chance of survival, but based on his strong faith helped by his noble soul and aided by God revelation on him which removes all doubts about existance of God, Ibrahim sacrificed his family to a life of hardship. This is more historically authentic then the stories as used by this author that he was climbing up a hill ( is there any historical base for such assumption).

Hajar Aswad was known to Arabs before Muhammad and had been associated to Abrahim by Quraish of that time; should we just discard this evidance?

It is naratted in Bokhari that Hazrat Muhammad said that when Aisha has to empahize some thing she would say ``in the name of Rab of Muhammad`` and when she would be feeling angry with me she would say ``in the name of Rab of Abrahim``, this is another evidance. Even today there are countless families who remember their elders generation after generation, so anyone is going to discount the above evidance that Quraish considered Abrahim as their Great Grand father?

Well, I am new to chowk, and after reading this, I realize that absolutely anything can be published here. So, why bother posting the following Guidelines?

``In order to protect this freedom for all Chowkwalas, it is necessary to adhere to the rules of good conduct as spelled out below.

Please refrain from profanity and abusive language
Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents
Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, religion or other personal discriminations``

So, if the editor doesn`t find this offensive, then, I guess this website is a free-fo-all, without real rules that are upheld.

You`ve lost one reader.

peace out.

Many days I browse the Chowk site and end up thinking ``so much good stuff and so little time. How am I ever going to keep up ?``

And then sometimes I come across submissons like this! A quick ten second scan and you KNOW that this is not worth ANY attention. Not only that, you KNOW that Hamzaad needs to be on one`s (and everyone`s) ``do not disturb`` list.

Very disappointed in you, farzana. Dare I say your Ismaili roots are showing.

Umer M.

What kind of kakka fills your head, oh kaka...
To come and spew it about like this is unbecoming.
Stick to your normal brand of infantile humour, at least it does not offend the reader (and his intelligence).
Hiding behind a façade of intellectualism will not help you, we can see through it.

Erm..

I know Salman Rushdie`s work, and you Hamzaad Sahib, are no Salman Rushdie.



I object to this for its utter banality. Kaka, you`ve aimed too close to the sun and into the sea you must fall, feathers a-molting....

Welcome to the writer`s world...not so smarmy now, are we? (lol)

It is interesting to see that people who are angry with God take out their anger on their fellow human beings. This is a typical behavioral trait of the so called rationalists, atheists, freethinkers, doubters, agnostics and such. On the other hand every religion in the world emphasises this value that loving your fellow human being is akin to loving God. This is a very delicate point if one understands. This is also a comparison between two systems of values - though I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values. They can have a (predictable) ``reaction`` to a certain stimulous at a certain time but they cannot have values.

It is interesting to see that people who are angry with God take out their anger on their fellow human beings. This is a typical behavioral trait of the so called rationalists, atheists, freethinkers, doubters, agnostics and such. On the other hand every religion in the world emphasises this value that loving your fellow human being is akin to loving God. This is a very delicate point if one understands. This is also a comparison between two systems of values - though I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values. They can have a (predictable) ``reaction`` to a certain stimulous at a certain time but they cannot have values.

Urstruly,

Are you saying that people who purport to ``love`` God don`t ``take out their anger on their fellow human beings``?

# 55

Good point. Allow me to explain it with an example. Ask this question to the most rabid and vitriolic religionist, e.g a Hindu, that the hatered and anger that he expresses towards Muslims, for example, is it something mandated by his religion or is it a choice that he made? He would vigorously shake his head left and right and try to explain how beautiful and all inclusive his religion of Hinduism is and how it promotes love among all human beings. Same is true for any religion. Each and every religion teaches the value of love for the fellow human being as one of the most basic value. When a religionist expresses his hatered towards other human beings, he does so by violating that value; and he is conciously aware of it and yet his ego and his frustration is so strong that he ``choses`` to turn a blind eye towards his conscience. In this case there is a hope that one day he might respond to the constant poking of his conscience and mend his way.

But agnostics and atheists are a different kind of human beings. They are not angry with human beings but they are angry with God and reject Him and His values. The only way to express their anger is to take it upon their fellow human beings because God is above all that. He is absolute. He does not need our prayers and He is above the rebuke of humans. That is the reason Qura`n labels Rejectors and Agnostics or Kafirs as people who have lost hope. Logically, what aspiration a living entity would have if his universe is limited to fulfilling only his inherent desires. Religion has shown man that he is meant for something greater than that. His universe is greater than what he percieves with five senses; it is more expansive beyond the tip of his nose.

So when an agnostic has no hope, then logically he would not have any value. Values would force him to pull him out of the bubble he is most comfortable in. If you look at it, every value in this world is based on dogma; the empirical eveidence that we gather from our observations attest that values benefit us. If value is right then dogma that brought in that value must also be correct. In the last couple of centuries people like David Hume, Neitscze, Hagle, Kant, and Roussuo tried to come up with values that were not based on some dogma. They failed miserably. You and me should ask this question why they were trying to come up with values in the first place? That is because they realize that what makes us humans is the ``values``. It is because of our values, and laws that are based on those values human beings have created families, societies and civilizations. It is because of these values that has enabled human beings to land on the stars while mokeys are still swinging on the trees.

#47 by Rizwan

Brother Rizwan,

Eed Mubarak and thank you for reading the article and, unlike others, making meaningful remarks. It is indeed for people like yourself that it is worth drugding in the khraafaat of the scriptures.

1. `alluded to no accomplishment of Ibrahim/the most respected Grand father`

Yes, Brother Rizwan. This is a point of frustration for kaka. Abraham just THOUGHT about sacrificing his son (the sickening part is that he almost did it). Compare this historical inaction with kaka`s THOUGHT of giving away half a billion dollars to the tsunami earthquake. None of the above happened. Just thoughts. As much as Abraham needs to be admired/condemned for his.. THOUGHTS, there is no historicity to his existence unlike the other men mentioned. This is assuming that no slaughtering happened.. unless you believe it did like some advertisers in 80s Pakistan.. Do you remember `Hazrat Ismaeel kay shaami kabaab`? How do you think they preserved the meat for thousands of years? Any Quranic science involved in this?

About the most amazing super duper grandfather award.., you are simply mistaken. Time magazine has already awarded this tamgha to this tranny on 48th street. Abraham was a close second, but got points shaved off for entertaining thoughts about wiping out his progeny.

2. `Secondly, real sacrifice was leaving Ismael in desert at a young age,/he was climbing up a hill ( is there any historical base for such assumption).`

Rizwan, my brother in Islam. Real sacrifice is leaving yourself in the desert at any age in your life. Leaving your son and concubine in the desert because you had too much to drink the previous night, gets you 10 years mandatory for criminal negligence reducible to 10 months on grounds of insanity. And you call this guy super duper daadaa abbaa?

Brother Rizwaan, please believe kaka that Abraham was climbing some hill or the other at some point of his life and contemplating slaughtering cow, goat, son, chicken, grapefruit etc. This isn`t like walking on water or splitting the moon, is it?

3. `Hajar Aswad was known to Arabs before Muhammad and had been associated to Abrahim by Quraish of that time; should we just discard this evidance?`

The Black Stone is not the same kidney stone that Abraham have had removed with the help of Akhtar Nai. The kidney stone was grounded to make surma for young Ismael`s slaughtering ceremony. The Black Stone is too big to be Abraham`s kidney stone and cannot be associated or owned by Abraham in any way.

4. `Aisha would say ``in the name of Rab of Abrahim``, this is another evidance.`

Brother, the story of Abraham in the Bible precedes any Aisha Paisha. Nobody is disputing that an old man with intentions to kill his son may have existed 5-10 (?) thousand years ago. They may have been several of them. kaka is just calling them potential murderers.

urustruly,

kaka is not an atheist. He believes that Allah exists. Its just that He is not to be paid much attention to. Is that a bad thing to say, brother?

#55 … and the hatred you feel towards whites folks, Jews, Ahmadis, and what-not … is a part of your religious values? What bubble are you living in??

And since when killing a person for rejecting your god become synonymous with loving the mankind?? Actually it is quite the opposite … isn’t it??

Either you are too cunning or too blind. Neither of the two is admirable.

# 56

A lot of assumptions there. I haven’t seen an agnostic who is rabidly anti human. And no, they don’t hate God because they don’t believe there is one. Besides they are not angry, some are perhaps exasperated at irrationality of believers. On the other hand religious fanatics have killed again and again.

# 56

I think you are confused as to what values are. Here is a list. Which one do you think comes from a belief system as in religion. (With help from google)

Which faith has monopoly on these values? Why agnostics or atheist can`t share these values with the believers?

``Values are ideals that guide or qualify your personal conduct, interaction with others, and involvement in your career. Like morals, they

• help you to distinguish what is right from what is wrong and
• inform you on how you can conduct your life in a meaningful way.

Values can be classified into four categories:
• Personal Values
• Cultural Values
• Social Values
• Work Values

Personal Values: Caring Courage Creativity Friendliness Honesty Honor IndependenceIntegrity Spirituality

Cultural Values: Celebration of Diversity Ethnic roots Faith Linguistic ties National ties Regional ties Tradition

Social Values: Altruism Diversity Eco-consciousness Equality Fairness Family closeness Lovingness Morality Reliability

Work Values: Autonomy Competitiveness Conscientiousness Dedication Equanimity/Ethics Loyalty Professionalism Punctuality Remunerative worth Team player ``

Are there some other values that come from dogma that you are refering to?

Ps. I know too many questions but I am just trying to figure out what you actually mean by values.
Thanks.

(re #58)
... sorry, I meant #56 ...

re: 61

Sattar Sahib,

Thats okay....having read your post, I updated my subscriptions to Klezmer! Today, and Citizens Concerned About the Advancement of White Folks, edited by Sam Alito. ;)

I guess the brouhaha is to be expected. Believers are easily hurt when their myths are attacked. HOWEVER, why exactly is abraham such an exalted figure and what exactly is the sacrifice that is so gorily celebrated?
This is a thought-provoking article and I applaude FV for choosing to publish it.
Hasanji, what is your objection?

``This is a thought-provoking article...``(soysauce)

what kind of `thoughts` -- Soysauce ji.....:)

Come on, folks, get a hold of yourselves. I read the article and your various comments. It seems that if Kaka had a head, you would all be demanding it on a platter - a la John the Baptist, who is Yahya Allaissalaam for you Muslims. :) Please get off your moral high horses and stop the Salome act. Enough is enough. Your intolerance is rapidly overshadowing Kaka`s nonsense. You are doing for Kaka what Muslims of another time did for Salman Rushdie, and other proliferators of bland, meaningless, and offensive rhetoric disguised as ``literature.`` Having said that, we need to understand what has been written. Why? If for no other reason than the fact that it is published here. :)

What Kaka seems to be doing, albeit in a somewhat offensive manner, is to question the relevance of old Semitic, mostly Jewish, legend to the present, mostly non-Semitic Muslims of the subcontinent. The idea of sacrificing virgins, first-borns, or even animals seems very primitive and pagan to many of us. How can a loving, compassionate God test His creation by having them sacrifice their first-born in a bloody display of total obedience? Why is such practice considered inhumane when performed by pagans like Romans, Egyptians, and worshippers of Kali Mai? Besides, the whole Old Testament is tantamount to a very biased and bizarre history of the Chosen People. Once you get past the ``begats`` in Genesis and how various famous men ``went into`` their respective women, there is one gory story after another about how the Lord helped the Jews slaughter their opponents. Does all this baggage really belong as a part of a religion claiming to be universal, egalitarian, and rational?

I noticed something very interesting in this article. It seems that Kaka, either in a stroke of brilliance or unintentionally, totally avoided the controversy of whether it was Ishmael, the first-born from Hagar or Isaac, the son of Sarah, who was the intended victim of the bloody sacrifice. That is the real story here - the rivalry of the Arab and Jewish cousins in claiming the ``honor`` of almost having been put under the knife for God the Almighty. And to think that we make fun of the pagans and their unbelievable epics. :)

Hasanji,

Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.``

- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?

Hasanji,

Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.``

- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?

kaka khan,

This article is offensive, lacks humor, devoid of poetry (not a problem in itself) and seems to have somewhat banal criticism of the events/personalities.

Compare that to the ``alternative`` tulsi-ramayan. Very poetic and really funny..i wish its available online and someone posts a link.

This article is blasphemous , this b*s*ard has no respect for others , I think it’s a fashion now to be Salman Rushdie wanabe . I wish you hell , where your skin is taken out everyday and the process repeats for thousands of years.

Jang and other idiots,

kaka is not your clown to amuse you or respect your feelings. For humor, check out the Pinkie and Twinkie adventure series . This was just to separate idiots from the non-.

``Oh God said to Abraham, ``Kill me a son``
Abe says, ``Man, you must be puttin` me on``
God say, ``No.`` Abe say, ``What?``
God say, ``You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin` you better run``
Well Abe says, ``Where do you want this killin` done?``
God says, ``Out on Highway 61.`` Bob Dylan quoted by soysauce

soysauce ji -- now that`s one masterly piece of satire.......on the same myth -- without involving poor Virgin Mary....

re:

``kaka is not your clown to amuse you or respect your feelings.``

Clearly, Kaka is not. So, what IS the point of this piece? If Kaka can`t take some legitimate feedback, Kaka should get the heck out of the kitchen...

Looks like kaka is hell bent on growing up into the next N F Paratha of Chowk, so no wonder this piece of crap is as lame and pathetic an attempt at humour as most of NFP`s wriings are, perhaps even more.
I disagree, it`s not offensive at all...it`s just utterly dreadful...for no one gives a shit to what a self-aggrandizing lowlife kaka-next-door hallucinates about or what he has to say about Ibrahim (AS) and his followers...I believe even Russel turns in his grave each time someone reads the words `a rogue philosopher`...

awwwww poor kaka...let him play with his pinkie and twinkie...;)

aaw kaka, dont get grumpy an all, you did attempt clowning ...

e.g.
``Poor Ibrahim, full of faith, was looking for miracles and ignored foul play, attributing the whole thing to the Lord. And the ladies and their lovers sighed in relief... ``

``Anyway, a harassed Ibrahim must have sacrificed a lot of his favorite cows and baseball cards before he went to sleep as usual.``

and i thought pinkie-twinkie series had a lot of home-truths ..

Now, if the KAKA had any equal, then KAKA would get a similar clue that when KAKA`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. KAka`s mother got raped from behind, that is why kaka shit out this verbal diarrhea and now, eating it .

Now, if the KAKA had any equal, then KAKA would get a similar clue that when KAKA`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. KAka`s mother got raped from behind, that is why kaka shit out this verbal diarrhea and now, eating it .

#77 by Zeena

That was an unfortunate post; I think you should have resisted the urge of your ego to stoop that low from the system of values you hold dear. I don`t think that it gets clearer than this:

The Women 4:148

``Allah does not like that a person should utter evil words except one when he has been wronged``


An argument can be made that since the author of this article has wronged us therefore he deserves the taste of his own medicine, but no, we are charged with a bigger responsibility than this and it is bigger than us and our ego. Why? Because the next verse says:

``(Though you are allowed to give expression to evil words, if you have been wronged) yet if you go on doing good openly or secretly or at least refrain from evil, you should know that Allah is Forgiving, whereas He is All Powerful to Punish``

This is the value system that all Prophets, Sufis, Saints, Sadhu, and Monks practice, that is, they resist the urge to give in to their urges to satisfy their ego. That is how they find Kashf and Nirvana. That is how they become immortal while those who abuse them get lost in oblivion.

There is a deep psychological understanding embedded in the verses cited above. Consider this that, though you protested and even made the author taste his own medicine but you may still not be satisfied. Your ego must be urging you to do more. So in other words no matter what you do, it is your defeat and submission to your ego. Whereas, simultaneously it is a great victory for the author because he was able to drag you down to his level and now for a third person there is no difference between you and him.

#54 & #56

Ustruly,

Please humour us and explain what you mean by
``I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values``...
``So when an agnostic has no hope, then logically he would not have any value``

So in your view, only religion can install ``values`` in a person`s life and in society? You think so little of man`s own intellectual capacity and awareness of what is morally ``right`` and ``wrong`` that he`s incapable of adopting a set of values in the absence of religious guidance?

Incidentally, you also seem to be confusing atheists with agnostics. Agnostics don`t reject the existence of God. They simply have no evidence of God`s existence, but also don`t disbelieve in him as they have no evidence that he doesn`t exist either.

methinks urstruly puts hindu-kafirs above atheist..hallelujah.

urstruly, pls enumerate the order explicitly, thanks.

#80 by jang


The order ordained by God is as such:

Apostates = Mulhid; Hypocrites=Munafiq - Lowest of the Low -

These people once beleived in the Oneness of Allah and then because of their misfortune they lost hope in Him and turned against Him or they invented new belief system. They become enemies of God and do everything in their capacity to drive innocent human beings from the path of God. It is strictly fobidden to keep any social interaction with these people. Quadianis fall into this category.

Atheists= Kafir - the worst

They do not believe in the existence of God either by birth or they reverted from some other religion other than Islam into atheism. They actively propagate their religion of ``unbeleief``. Social interaction with these people is permitted but discouraged.


Polytheists = Mushriq - really bad

They believe in One God but also believe in smaller dieties that share power with One God. Hindus fall in this category. The social intercation with these people is permitted.


Agnostics = ? - bad THese people are doubters. However, unlike Atheists they do not promote their religion of ``doubt``. Social interaction with these people is permitted.

People of Book=Ehl-e-Qitab i.e. Jews & Christians, in some cases Hidus and Zoroastrians as well OK

Jews and Christians are in fact early Muslims who made changes in the basic message of God, becuse of the compulsion of time. Social Interaction with these people is permitted but it is advised that they should not be trusted in temporal affairs. In wordly affairs they can be as trustworthy as any other human being be it Muslim or non-Muslim.

Believers = Momins the best

These are Muslims who with the best of their human capacity not only constantly try to keep themselves on the right path but also convey the message of righteousness to others (regardless of religion) as well. This is actually the definition of Muslim that Quran has defined.

#81 thanks. so is a murderous momeen (say who does some bad things, but is otherwise a almost true believer) better than a good kaffir or mushriq? or in your framework (i mean gods framework) its just not possible?

Urstruly (#81):

… I don’t think you get it ... people here are making fun of you.

By posting elaborate (idiotic) explanations of your faith, you are only coming across as a bigger clown than originally suspected. Keep quiet and try to avoid providing proof that you indeed are a low-IQ jihadi.

I’m only trying to help you … you know …

#79
I take Urstruly`s comments as , he believes in a structural system of specific sets of beliefs to have values to live in social circles. He believes , whoever doesn`t wish to bind to that very system of beliefs looses his/her values to be identified as a nice human being and regressed down to pre-civil era , when humans were living worst than animals with out any values.

I believe, the author of this article has regressed to pre-civivl era.

#78 Urstruly
Don`t forget in Islam, it is law that if, someone murders your loved ones, you can murder that person(or state will hang the person to death).
I am a very common person, who is a slave to her ego, I won`t rise above my ego,b/c my ego is my wisdom, which commands me NOT to surrender , if, I am right.

jang:
the basic concept is eternal damnation. (ED)

everyone is going to Hell except Momins. Momins` good-deeds outweigh their sins -> they will go to Heaven.

Muslims with sins will be sent to Hell and be cleansed from their sins by applying a pyro-technique on their bodies mixed in with some poisonous creatures. They will eventually go to Heaven. They do not come in ED category. So a murderer/rapist muslim will prolly spend 10000`s of years in Hell to pay for his horrible deeds but if he had died believing (even faintly) the concept of Oneness of Allah, he might get his salvation in the end.

Mulhids Apostates like me will be in the deepest (see ``lowest of the low`` in urstruly`s post) and the most intense chamber of Hell eternally. Strictly ED category.

Kaafirs will hierarchically be doing a little better than me (i.e. less intense fire etc.) But they also gonna be in Hell eternally. again ED`ed.

Pre-Islamic people of the Book who were loyal to Jesus` ``original`` message and early jews (who didnt betray their prophets and in the process broke the covenant with God) will also be accorded an eternal and pleasant stay in Heaven.

Heaven also happened to have its own categories and hiearachies but for people like you and I those are kinda irrelevant. :-)

hope this helps.

From Farzana Versey`s Ilog from today,{{{{If nothing else, should this factor have been considered before I let someone bash up a religious icon? Does an individual opinion have this much validity that it can spoil someone’s festivities? Is religion not supposed to give some people strength and a feeling of security? Why do they get shaky at another point of view? }}}}

Farzana Versey
Dear cheif editor
Yes, you`re absolutely right nobody should get shaky at another`s point of view.I agree with you on this. Period.......
But, FV, what point of view you`re talking about? where is the point of view in this article?
All I see in above crap is humiliation of other people`s faiths and on top of everything humiliation of women by making cruel and disgusting remarks about rapes. And, by dragging our pious women as being raped.

There is a difference between point of views, which we can discuss with all the openess and between humiliation.

If, someone stands up and says, I don`t believe in this faith,b/c this faith doesn`t hold true facts(with out degrading and humiliating the faith and the pious ladies) , that is the point of view, which we call rational and we will discuss that with in the limits of decency.

But, if, you call the above piece of verbal diarrhea ,``point of view``, then tsk, tsk,tsk on your common sense, that you clearly failed to recognise the crystal clear difference between point of view and humiliation.

Well, in that case, if someone rapes an innocent girl and you are saying, that is OK to rape an innocent girl ,b/c it is freedom of choice and b/c it is your point of view to stand by the rapist. Then you clearly are in delusional denial with reaction formation in a recessed fashion, that you are unable to differentiate , what is the logic of point of view and what is the rationale of cruelty and humiliation?
Obviously, any rationale person will object to the rape, only insane won`t.

soysauce ji wrote:
``- Bob Dylan

What sort of god & what sort of prophet? What is being celebrated?``

i think, it is not about celebrating. dylan is painting a picture and at the same time being ironic about it (shifting the narrative`s time-space). image of god-abe talking is a dangerous one because for most of us it is rooted in our early childhood .. and he contrasts the retelling of this magical mythical tale with his deadpan delivery. the whole thing gets charged to giga orders of magnitude. powerful stuff.

Farzana Versey
And, thats the difference between insanity and point of view. Think with your white matter. Thanks

#78 by Urstruly

zeena`s opinion stems from her background of panchayat based culture, where female relatives are fair game for whatever offense the panchayat deems outrageous. Besides, according to saimasha, all of our mothers have been raped at one time or the other so zeena is hardly to be blamed.

What is interesting is the slap on the face by a mominah about your morals theory, the day after it was revealed to you. `Hope it was a good learning experience.

Jang and samina idiots,

What gets kaka furious is the expectations to be entertained by witless, walking mediocrities (`lacks humor`) all the time. This inane idiot (jang) is looking for humor in a deliberately abrasive vitroil. Talk about missing the point!! If this is legitmate criticism, then keep at it and soon kaka will stop even writing funny stuff!

Shobig,

Please step out of serf (kammi-kameen) mentality and realize that Russel is not the `lord of philosphy` who may or may not approbate philosophers.

#89 kaka the shameless creature
And, your shameless culture is from Karachi`s streets where your mother got raped several times . Don`t blame me , you admitted yourself that your mother was dragged in the streets of Karachi by Urdu Ispeaking gangsters, who abuse and tortured your mother and raped her from behind, like you mentioned in your article about your mother.........remember....

Now, if Kaka had any equal, then kaka would get a similar clue that when kaka`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. and that is how you came in to this cruel and crazy wild world to bring garbage and nonsense in to this chowk.com.

Why don`t you try showing your mother`s history and your birth on other porno`s web site.
You see, how much sensitive you are for your own mother??? But, your nonsense and insensitivity is beyond words , what you did in this article and still you`re alive. I wish you a kutaiy kii death. I wish you die like people dragging you naked on the streets of Karachi and dogs eating every bit of your meat.

How do you know my background, when you don`t know me well enough? You have shown your dirty self thousand times to people and everyone knows you so very well. Why don`t you show us your picture and your virgin Marry mother`s picture, so, that we should know, whom we are dealing with?
You have been calling me names, you have been cyber harrassin me . I never took your dirty self seriously. But, this time, it looks like , I will for this article.

I challenge you. If, you have guts, give us your phone number, address and you will see, how your dirty self won`t be here for the rest of your miserable life, which already sucks.

You are just a computer sissy, typing any buk,buk any time with no mind. You are from Karachi`s low lying slums, where again,Now, if Kaka had any equal, then kaka would get a similar clue that when kaka`s mother suddenly gets pregnant and is unable to name the father of the child, then she probably was raped from behind; her eyes forced shut by the rapist and therefore never could see the rapist (or maybe she did, but he probably was too close of a kin). When there are possible explanations - perfectly coherent explanations - then there’s no need to bring in the immaculate nonsense. and that is how you came in to this cruel and crazy wild world to bring garbage and nonsense in to this chowk.com.

The author of this article is a bigoted ignoramus who is writing from total ignorance. Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants. He does not mention the fact that Abraham/Ibrahim is mentioned in the tablets uncovered in Ebla, together with the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah, 1500 years before the Torah by the way. It is clear that he (the author) uses kinder words for Jesus than for the others and is most derogatory of the prophet of Islam with ZERO evidence by the way. He even claims ignorance by stating, ``about whom much has to be false``. Who writes ``evidence papers`` in this fashion? Maybe much of what is written in the legends of the prophets is false but what is false is not proven in this fashion. And why Chowk is putting such garbage on its front pages is beyond me.

#91 read <<< Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants >>>

As <<< nothing scholarly in THIS article, on the contrary all it contains are half baked arguments and rants >>>

As we all know rants and half-baked arguments are not ``scholarly``

#91 read <<< Nothing scholarly in his article except his half-baked arguments and rants >>>

As <<< nothing scholarly in THIS article, on the contrary all it contains are half baked arguments and rants >>>

As we all know rants and half-baked arguments are not ``scholarly``

Well friends!!! I guess we must be able to appreciate some sacred fictional facts about imaginary heroes, which are presented in this satirical narrative.

Why we Indians get over emotional about ``honor`` of Arabs, are we suffering from deep inferiority complex??

Do we have any identity,culture or history of our own.???

My old and wise father who compromised and became a good Muslim, in order to get along with superstiteous ladies of his family.

He whispered to me that actually he belonged to ``kapoors`` of India, and Arab imperialists and children of Ismael snatched his culture from him.

I asked him about the beautiful looking brunette aborigines or natives of India , who got labelled as ``musalis``, ``deendars`` etc. and who live miserable lives in Pakistan at the mercy of children of Abraham known as ``syed`` badshahs in Pakistan.

These outsider so called Arab ``Syeds`` were so clever that contrary to the simple life style of holy prophet (pbuh),..they occupied lands and ``jagirs`` from Kaghan to Karachi, and made natives of India as ``deendars`` and eternal slaves.

My father also hinted about realities of life, and ``pait oor aurat ka chakar`` ( role of tummy and woman in man`s life) which Freud has elaborated and simplified for us.

He told me about construction of kaaba and that institution of haj as a source of permanent income, which existed before Islam.... and name of the supreme deity of pagans of Arabs was ``Allah``, thats why name of the father of holy prophet (pbuh) was abdullah (servant of Allah) who was born among pagans of Arabs......

History of bowing in front of sacred ``hajre aswad`` black stone, super natural deities,jinns, patriarchy,possession of women