The Leveling of America

Salim, 543 ,
You have correctedly said that an effort should be made to understand each other. I have personally no hatred for Pakistani people, the Pakistani rulers, yes. They have succesfully brainwashed generations of Pakistanis- India is the enemy, India will destroy pak etc, etc-to remain in power. However when Indians visit Pakistan and vice-versa a lot of love is showered on each other. I may be wrong but I feel the anti india agenda is more in the elite than the common man on the streets.
I grew up in Amritsar, watching PTV. Pakistani tv stars were very popular, Shanaaz Sheikh had a huge fan following. Javed Sheikh very popular amonst the girls. My favourite was Roohi Bano, Usma Gilani and Abid Ali. Rahat and Saira Kazmi visited our college. He was very popular bec of Dhoop Kinarey. Our college hall was full of girls wanting to meet him. The press called him the Amitabh Bachan of Pakistan. He said he was overwhelmed by the love showed to him.
The one thing that used to bug us all was the hate india campaign of ptv, however, since it is a govt run channell it is understandable.

Kaura, #546
Are you becoming a Nostradamus of our times?

Saima Shah #502
``Shouldn`t you try to take up the challenge? Come up with more cogent, better arguments without a subtext of hatred? ``

I came up with many cogent arguments in #278 #287 #289 #312 #343 #355 #358 #367 #371 #375 #379 #386. All I got in reply from you and for some reason from Mantolives(with whom I was not debating anything) is posts and posts full of personal vilification.


This technique of yours and Mantolives, that I make cogent arguments, then you have absolutely no cogent rebuttal or reply except to make personal remarks about me and then demand that I explain myself, is not acceptable to me. The last time I posted 4 posts on the dynamics of Kerala coalition politics I got about 10-15 posts in reply abusing me personally. If that is the sort of discussion chowk wants so be it. But I will not be part of it.

That is why I asked chowk staff to delete my posts on this thread but being the incompetent snivelling cowards they are they did not. I will not be wasting time making any more cogent arguments since I will be only getting personally vilified in reply as has happened already.


Why don`t you take up the challenge and come up with some cogent rebuttals or counterpoints to my points in the above-listed posts which refrain from vilifying me personally? The interactor masadi did it and did not have to abuse me personally like you and Mantolives are doing.


``I realize that you are hopelessly out of touch with changing on the ground reality of Pakistan and India.``

You are saying this about me after I wrote to Raw_Dust in #379 about my home state Kerala:

``Actually I grew up slightly pink meself in a commie state. As you say, people don`t always understand what it is like. A typical scenario in a commie state of India is a factory under shut down but the employees still on strike years after shutdown demanding back pay from the government. The state transport corporation had 11 employees to each bus and was perpetually in the red for that reason. It couldn`t lay off people because you guessed it. There would sometimes be no money to pay state govt. salaries at month end and CM would rush to N.Delhi and get cash from funds set aside for other stuff like development and infrastructure. The labor unions are so strong and aggressive, people moving house sometimes have to do it in the dead of the night with the help of nonunion laborers. Young educated people mostly have to migrate out of the state to find jobs.

I don`t mind hazar critiques of capitalism as I don`t think any single economic ideology can meet the needs of any diverse country much less India. But we can feed our commies, overstaff our government enterprises, and do important stuff like fund our (much needed) welfare programs only when India increases the pie and balances its books. I am not sure why earning one`s keep honestly and not being deeply indebted to imperialist capitalist pig countries instead is called immoral capitalism. ``



You, Saima Shah, really need to do more than simply make the dismissive statement `you are hopelessly out of touch` - you need to actually provide information about the ground reality which rebuts my above post about my home state and shows that I am hopelessly out of touch and you are not. Neither you nor Mantolives has done that.


And before you debate next time, decide whether you are debating Friedman and his views on Israel and the Iraq war or you are discussing Friedman`s book and his view of globalization. I was debating Friedman`s book on `flat earth` and globalization in general wrt India. I was not debating about Friedman personally, nor about his views on Israel or the Iraq war. I posted a lot about my opposition to the Iraq war before the Iraq war.


A general comment about chowk guidelines and the 50? odd posts discussing how bad sadna is, not discussing the review, globalization or sadna`s views on globalization -

1. chowk staff`s excuse is that for them chowk guidelines=chowk staff`s personal friendships so if a friend of chowk staff`s wants to abuse another interactor he can.

2. Mantolives` excuse is that he can post any number of posts vilifying another interactor and his posts will never be censored. (refer 1).

3. But what is other posters` excuse for discussing me? I am not the topic here. Kindly stick to the topic of the thread and refrain from discussing me even when chowk staff`s friends refuse to adhere to the chowk guidelines provided on the website and chowk staff refuses to enforce those guidelines.

Re: # 546

Kalyug has continued to be ``predicted`` for last hundred years - nothing has happened :)

Of course - in long term, we are all dead.....

There are monsters in the world that are getting bigger; all of them will become more obese with clogged arteries; will suffer heart attack and die......

US, India, China, Islamic states.....all of em.....

this is what was predicted for Kalyug....it is coming true.

#544, HP Sahib,
Ameen. Well said and I agree with you that Chowk is now taking that positive direction to meaningful discussions and not mere confrontation and abuse. Thanks,

Shanshah Akber kay sahibzadaa,

I hope some day issues on this forum (chowk) would be discussed as issues and not adversarial foreign relations. It seems to me that chowk is now taking that direction and the editors should continue to make this site unattractive for people who only promote confrontational and communal point of view.
Amen....

My advice to my Pakistani friends is to look at each Indian individually. Sure, most Indians are very pro-Indian, why should that be a surprise or even a negative aspect? What you need to consider is their objectivity and approach. Do they merely hate all Pakis, all Muslims, regardless of the issue and/or relevant logic? For example, there are people like DM Sahib, Amansandhu, Anil, Ranjit, bongy, mohar, Rsridhar, arjun, dullahbhai, harry, babu, jang, mannyd, parthaab, kaal bhai, pmishra, chaltahai, Hakeem Sahib, Dillidost, Kaura, and many many others, who enjoy discussing issues with us and are fun to interact with. The idea is not to defeat them, but to reassure them that Pakis and Muslims are really not all that bad. There are people who may be Indian but one can`t really tell - Kulharee, SOS, Queenie, and others. Even Arjun`s criticism against Muslims and Pakis can be considered genuinely positive and not seen as hatred. On the clear-cut issues such as the Gujarat massacres, arjun is undoubtedly against violence perpetrated on innocent people. I have not know him to lie about or fabricate the information he presents.

I think that we need to understand Indian viewpoints, analyze their concerns, and see what we can do to improve our relations. We should not hesitate to educate them when we are convinced that they are mistaken. BTW, GiveusKashmirbecauseitisMuslimandgodrownintheBayofBengal is not a valid approach.

Manto #538,
Thank you so much for your praise and thoughtful support. I have always admired your own capabilities - knowledge, wit, research, and logic. Whether one agrees with you or not becomes a trivial issue. When one discusses issues with someone who understands history, recognizes logic, and questions viewpoints rather than personalities, much can be accomplished. I wish Pakistan had more people like you.

Folks,
I have read the discussion about the traits of Indian and Pakistani interactors. The only comment I would like to offer is that, while it`s commendable to cheer for the home team, sometimes the home team loses, even at home - and there is nothing wrong with that. Your country, your religion, your society, can not always prevail, on every issue, and every turn. So, constantly rooting for your side and defending its position may be considered consistent and loyal. On the other hand, it could render you to be predictable, opinionated, biased, and jingoistic. My plea to Sadna is that, while she is an intelligent person and a tireless researcher, she needs to become a little more balanced - in her vigorous support for her side.:)
Many Pakis accuse me of being a ``traitor,`` even a Mir Jafar. Too bad, they can`t see that recognizing our own faults is a healthy exercise.

Regretfully submitted. :)

bbabu #483 {``I fail to see how Iraq under Saddam and Iran under current leaders gets any sympathy from well informed reasonable Muslims like you.
American policy in Middle East is driven by one issue - petroluem. Israel is a sideshow for everyone except the Palestinians. I hope you are not deluded by all this attention on Israel.``}

Babu Sahib,
Neither Sadman Houston nor the current buffoon in Iran, Mr. Ahmedinijad, get any sympathy from me. I am glad that Sadman Houston is not in power. But, I am not in the habit of praising cannibals who help save us from wild dogs only to consume us later. Mr. Friedman and his type represent the ``good cop`` half of the good cop/bad cop duo. Their only aim is to ensure the survival and hegemony of their only concern - the Zionist state of Israel. I am not against Jews or even Israel. I am against people manipulating wars and strife, getting innocents killed so that their own people may live better. This is selfishness at its worst. As for petroleum, I agree - after all, isn`t that the greater prize? One can support Israel`s supremacy and get oil to buy all the necessary support and ``friends.`` No, I am not at all deluded, just apprehensive and frustrated.

#487 by SaimaShah {``Glad we both agree. The question is if we have indeed framed the problem correctly, then what can the Muslim world do? My concern or objective is world peace. All other states, victories and vanquishments are delusions at best.
What actions, what strategy and reactions will prevent a Third World War on the basis, if you will, religion. ``}

Saima,
I was really impressed by your ability to see through the ``liberal`` sugar-coated fog of condescending sympathy that Mr. Friedman is so notorious at providing to Muslims. As DM Sahbi so accurately noted, this ``friend`` of the Middle East campaigned for a pernicious war in Iraq and now wants us to disengage to make matters even worse.

You ask what can the Muslim world do? and what can be done to avoid another round of Crusades? I have been giving these questions a lot of serious thought and would love to share my views with people on Chowk as a FP article. Unfortunately, as I stated earlier, I have been side-tracked by altercation nonsense on UP and trying to stay alive on Chowk. Well, all that`s in the past.

In general, I suggest that we discard the radical philosophy of Wahabism. We need a much wider umbrella and we can start off by inviting Ahmedis, Ismailis, Druzes, and even Bahais back to the fold. We need to demonstrate and practice real tolerance for all views, no matter how much we think they ``deviate`` from our own. Then, we need more individual freedom and earnest desire not merely to ``catch up`` with the modern world, but to present a better and more humane environment for humanity. For example, when the whole world was consumed with racism, fascism, and superiority complexes, Muslims were refreshingly immune to the venom of race, color, and caste. We seemed to have learned a lot - not all of it is good either. Thanks.

Salim..

Upon the unreserved praise by Godot sahab, I went to your post 443... and it is a very well articulated post which deserves to be converted into a full article.

You are indeed a fairminded individual.. when you are not distracted.

#534, Godot Sahib,
I had been working on a comprehesive article presenting some objective advice to people from Muslim backgrounds. Unfortunately, I became distracted by the non-stop altercations and constant bouts with the former Chowk Staff. They have made me lose precious time and concentration at the expense of this worthwhile article. Now that we have a more objective and fair-minded regime, I will try to get back on track.

Thanks so much for your valuable advice and support.

Yes... now there is a nazaria at work. Anything to fuel bigotry.

#532

Manto shares the same ``nazaria`` or worldview as the owners of this site. The editorial boards ``tolerance`` for his poorly reasoned ``articles`` confirms this. If we were in any doubt about this, the appointment of Farzana as editor-in-chief confirms that they do not believe in taking the neutral ground in this debate, anybody who doesnt share this ``nazaria`` is not welcome.

Most thinking Indians have stopped investing any time in interacting here. Its only Indians with a cultural link or nostalgia for that cultural link who invest any time in interacting here.