The Leveling of America

Anil,

I am afraid when one is faced with abuse ``nautanki`` ``khota`` ``sleeping with chowk staff`` etc etc, it does not amount to ``argumentation``. An unbiased and balanced investigator will conclude that she has no argument what so ever. I have tried to reason with her many times... but ultimately only stating the obvious seems to work for her. As for acing her arguments... in all her arguments that she has had with me, she ultimately backed out of her original assertions, left with no choice except to abuse me and chowk staff and level baseless allegations like ``Mantolives controls chowk``. Chowk staff are fairminded individuals who banned her on numerous occasions for resorting to the worse kind of abuse. There is a person like sadna on every website... who screams and shouts ``unfair`` and levels such allegations against the management because such a person never can argue on facts as they are.

Frankly I have no time for middleaged crazies with major self esteem issues.


Harish-hyd,

Its NOT ``demonisation``... it is countering demonisation. Demonisation is certainly what you fellows have been doing to us. Do you know how much money the Indian lobby spends on simply getting the words ``failed state`` associated with Pakistan. Common history and civilisation and language are good basis for a ``nation`` not nationalism. Nationalism is always activist... A member of a nation is not necessarily a nationalist. On my better days, I am a Pakistani national... or my worst days I am a Pakistani nationalist ...

As for Sadna... On this board alone she has declared at least 10 times that all Pakistanis are stupid idiots... My submission is that if someone like Saimashah, an indo-phile who has always submissively accepted Indian superiority mostly unreasonably, can say what she said to Sadna, it should give people reason to investigate what Sadna is saying.

#495 by Mantolives on December 19, 2005 10:54pm PT

[How else do you think ``nationalisms`` appear? On lovey dovey goodness?]

You couldn`t be more wrong. Civilization, religion, history can all be factors for nationalism. But demonization of the other is a more recent phenomenon, and is wrong for it makes the people of that nation paranoid and chase shadows where there are none, as has been happening with countries like North Korea, Iran, and Pakistan.

[Ofcourse the hypocrisy of the Indian interactors who abuse me for responding in kind to Sadna`s unreserved abuse against all Pakistanis is one of the main pillars of this new identity I am going to forge.]

Good for you! If the new identity can help Pakistan prosper and live in peace with its neighbors, I`m all for it, and I`m sure most Indians will back you.

[Lets call a spade a spade... delude Pakistanis... put them in a room with dost mittars, anil kapurias, stukas... but there is always a reality check.]

You can`t expect love from a country, whose citizens have borne the brunt of Paki terrorism for decades now. You can`t help them think that there may be Pakis who are as normal as them when the only specimens they have seen or heard of are the suicide bombers or the AK-47-wielding bearded maniacs. Of course it doesn`t help when the Paki government willingly aids and abets such policies. If the Anils, Stukas and the dost-mittars have still been kind to Pakis, that is because they belong to a miniscule percentage of Indians who have been educated and exposed to other Pakis in real life.

Even so, just when has sadna exposed hatred for Pakistan? Her gripe has been against Paki policies that has fomented hostility with India even at the expense of the country`s development, the results of which are there for all to see.

But for the fact that our only exposure to Pakis has been through suicide-bombing and violence, there is absolutely no reason for Indians to hate Pakis, however much you may think otherwise.

Amansandhu,

When you find in your heart to condemn 6 years of abuse by Sadna, come talk to me.
Untill you do so, condemning me for stereotyping Indians using her tactics is nothing but hypocrisy.. you and that other interactor can express all the ``constitutional dislike`` of me as you want.

Harish_hyd...

Agreed... and that often is the most legitimate cause. How else do you think ``nationalisms`` appear? On lovey dovey goodness?

Ofcourse the hypocrisy of the Indian interactors who abuse me for responding in kind to Sadna`s unreserved abuse against all Pakistanis is one of the main pillars of this new identity I am going to forge. Lets call a spade a spade... delude Pakistanis... put them in a room with dost mittars, anil kapurias, stukas... but there is always a reality check.

Manto,
``Your country, sadna, is full of people like you - obsessed maniacs who lie and distort facts to prove points.``
The same can be said about your country and people. I lived in Amritsar once, and watched PTV, the kind of anti-India programmes, lies and half truths were really unbelievable. The common Indian is not obssesed with Pakistan, infact it is vice-versa. Read the following article, it still hasnt stopped.
Pak radio still backs Khalistan
Sanjay Sharma
[ Monday, December 05, 2005 01:12:07 amTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

LAHORE: Even as India and Pakistan immerse themselves in unending bouts of CBMs, an official Palkistani Punjabi radio programme is still out doing what it has since ages — promote a Khalistani agenda 25 years old.

An hour after the kirtan aired by SGPC ends at 6 pm, Pakistan radio`s `Punjabi Darbar` programme begins. In between the kirtan comes a rabid anti-India outburst for five minutes.

But the programme makers are careful in not attacking Sikhs. The butt of criticism is the brahaminical order of Hindus which they call ``Baman.``

Sikhism is pitched as anti-brahaminical. The latter is an order that promotes injustice on the basis of caste.

Judiciary, police, Punjab government and the Union government draw severe criticism from this radio programme on the basis of what they claim are letters ``written from India``.

Pending cases of human rights violations are a particular favourite. Information in the programme is based on ``media reports``.

The programme has called the Indian judiciary ``defunct`` and continuosly raises ``cases of human rights violations against Sikhs``.

#484 by Mantolives

[Your presence here helps Pakistanis reaffirm their identity and thank God a million times that we don`t have to go through the agony of calling someone like you a compatriot.]

First it was the TNT, now it is some Indian posters you need to reaffirm your identity. Confirms the widely-held belief that Pakis always need someone/thing else (call it the villain, the scapegoat, or the punching bag) to reaffirm their identity. On its own, there is no such thing as a ``Paki identity``.

Anil,

I agree with you. And I also agree with you about Arjunm. I consider Arjunm a friend of Pakistan. However, my estimate of Sadna is very similar to what Saima Shah has so belatedly arrived at. Sadna is not interested in facts, sources... her own self esteem issues has made her mistakenly assume that she is the lone warrior against the big bad Pakistanis.. and she must lie and abuse to get her point across.

We have all been there.. but she has like 20 years on people like me. One would imagine some maturity from that age group. Apparently not. Why else would your organisations pump in money to denigrate Pakistan 24/7?

Re: # 492

Yasser:

Sadna looks to you in certain perspective, and you look to her in certain perspective. From my perspective you look different, and you probably know that too. My point is find words, without anger, to ace her arguments. Debate is essential part of pluralistic democracy. I have the same suggestion for Sadna as well.

Good luck.
Anil Kapuria

Your country, sadna, is full of people like you - obsessed maniacs who lie and distort facts to prove points.

How many times have you been shamed on chowk? How many times have you been forced to eat your words. And yet you have the nerve to claim that we haven`t able to defend ourselves ``on merit``. Bigotry my dear was NEVER a merit.

#438 MASADI

``What about one person having 5 phone lines, should we divide up the phone lines by 5 as well and come to a smaller number, or a public phone service serving 1000 people, should we multiply that by 1000?. No, measures of phone access do not work in this fashion, they work just like the Hindu Business Line has quoted, PER 100 population, and per that calculation 95% of Indians do not have a land line. End of story. ``

If the above is your economic theory, then development means an excessive overconsumption. Suppose, there is family of four persons and they have one landline phone. Now what you are saying is that the balance three persons of the family are without a telephone. Theoritically right but practically wrong.

Now that one family has one earning member and three dependents. Then your economic theory puts the non-earning members below poverty line as they are not earning anything. Again theoritically right but practically wrong.

Though I am not an economics student but I understand keeping all the above factors in view, the world has made certain standards and we have to follow those standards only. There is no point in contradicting those figures as it will not lead to anything.

My other point was that by making 90% Indians poor, your theory makes the balance 10% Indians fabulously rich. The Indian GNP as per PPP is about $ 3.0 Trillion. The population is about 1 Billion. If 90% people are poor, then it would mean that these 90% are not consuming more than 10% of the GN Produce and 90% of GNPd is consumed by 10% Indians. That way the living standards of Top 10% Indians would reach that of Germany which is again not supported by the observation. The only logic could be that the Indian GNPd of $3.0 Trillion is consumed by a much larger population ,atleast 3-4 times more, as that would support the observation that an average German is many times richer than an average Indian.

You are taking pains by quoting various data and statistics from various sources but at the same time you must analyse what you say from various angles and see where are you going.

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#476 sridhar

Kerala is a very special case. As you know, the local kings were quite forward looking. Laws about education were passed long before CPI (MLQPD or whatever) showed up. A lot of social reform was completed by early 20th century.

Communists have been ruling Bengal for 30 years and the record is quite mixed. Only in comparison to Bihar have they been successful! I also lived through the 60`s and 70`s in Calcutta and was witness to the violence and short-sightedness of so-called ``left wing`` progressives. The kind of mob violence used by the communists against ``class enemies`` (i.e., anyone who opposes them) is no different than Bajrang dal or Shiv Sena goonda-giri.

It is difficult to put up with these Pakistani aristocrats lecturing us code coolie-type people on socialism. These people come from top 0.1% of their society but feel free to lecture us on socialism and evils of US etc.

#484
That is exactly as it should be. My country is better off without people who can`t defend what they believe in, on merits and expect to be brownnosed even on pressing national issues such as globalization.

chowk staff
Here I am calling you unmentionable things and you refuse to ban me, how is that? Did I mention that you are a bunch of incompetents?

Re: # 485

Sadna

Shouldn`t you try to take up the challenge? Come up with more cogent, better arguments without a subtext of hatred? After reading you for a while, I realize that you are hopelessly out of touch with changing on the ground reality of Pakistan and India. Things are very interesting between these two countries. Instead of a generation raised on hate rhetoric, a new wave of out of the box thinkers are changing the ground rules of engagement. Wake up and come along.

Dear sadna,

I actually agree with you. There is a lot of value in your posts.

You see ordinarily faced with Indians like Dost Mittar, Anil kapuria, Stuka etc, Pakistanis begin doubting themselves... i.e. look Indians are such nice people... and therefore begin to think that maybe we were wrong all along.

Your presence here helps Pakistanis reaffirm their identity and thank God a million times that we don`t have to go through the agony of calling someone like you a compatriot.

Mantolives - excuse me, but my words are my own and have nothing to do with amansandhu. i wasnt aware of this post or this board but now that i am i`d like to say that if you have something to say to me, kindly do so to me instead of ascribing my remarks to bystanders and then going to town on it. and incidentally, i dont see why you found it necessary to bring me into this but whatever your absurd motivation, i am not interested. life`s entirely too short and you... well, never mind.

Re: # 484: ``Your presence here helps Pakistanis reaffirm their identity and thank God a million times that we don`t have to go through the agony of calling someone like you a compatriot.``

The above was addressed to sadna but i would like to say to you that imo you do your country a grave disservice by making such remarks... it implies that your national identity rests on being the Anti-India and I sincerely hope that isnt true. In fact, my observation [of pakistanis other than you] has been that that is not true. however, its your country, so aap hi jaane.