The Virgin Birth

Re. #15 Original sin is usually thought of as the propensity to evil that exists within all humans and is thought to be the consequence of the act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Personally I think that the curiosity that prompted Eve to disobey is the root of al science, so perversely, religion(s) was quite right in identifying curiosity, and the refusal to obey dictats, as the main obstacle to its hegemony.

Perhaps at this time we should concentrate on the message of love and goodwill rather than more obscure facets of religion; although most religious people will insist that without the ``miracles`` of virgin birth and the resurrection Christ`s message was no more worthy of veneration than that of many other wise men.

Mohar11...

Change management eh... nice.

So following that theory to its logical conclusion, do you feel then it is fair to ask you to not challenge my view of history?

No ... it won`t be fair... nor would I get the chance to investigate/elaborate/further my point of view.

.......... and i have a bridge in brooklyn that i would like to sell to you !!! ............ jezsus f. christ - how stupid can we get ! ....... next thing you know, somone will be telling us that a man lived inside a fish for six months and paris hilton is a virgin !

i heard the story from a guy who claimed that immaculate conception/virgin birth are real because if they were not, the contemperories of jesus would have been contemptories...the premise is that no one could have sold such a story if it were not true.

hmm

but i agree, its the messsage of luv and peace that is important and not who planted the seed.

#22, just because virgin births are uncommon and extremely rare, that does not make them a ``cock `n bull story``- the possibility can be reproduced in a scientific lab, how God made it happen in Mary, and why he chose to make it a sign is his business, what I am concerned with is the fact that there is nothing unscientific in the concept.

I have often wondered about the morality, rather rationality, of telling heathens that they need to accept the one true God and believe in the holy scriptures of the monothestic faiths. Imagine, trying to persuade a Hindu to leave his religion of gods and goddesses, gods taking part in wars, sex and rape among gods, human sacrifices, old legends lost in time and exaggeration. Leave all that so he can believe in:

A God who impregnates a virgin without exerting Himself.
A God who expels two naked people from a garden because they ate either an apple, or some wheat and all because a snake told them to do it.
Horrific civil war in heaven pitting angel against angel
Mankind propagating itself by practicing incest
God telling Joshua to blow the trumpet until the walls of Jericho come down so that he can slaughter every living man, woman, and child
God turning people into pillars of salt for watching the destrcution of whole cities for homosexual behavior
God flooding the whole world and telling the inventor of booze to save a pair of everything.
God choosing His people over others
God splitting the Red Sea so his favorite people could cross in safety and their persecutors drown when the seas come together again.
Man living in fish without airconditioning or cable TV

ALL religions have such stories.....It is cheap and petty to rumage thru such stories.....Instead,

pay attention to Jesus` message, and live by it if you can.......


`pehlan apni peeri thullay sota phero`...............

Chrstns look foolish trying to defend this nonsense, and others look cheap bringing it up..........

I am not going to risk being stoned by both Christians and Muslims so I will buy the cock `n bull story about the virgin birth. What`s wrong with Mary having Jesus the old-fashioned way? Why can`t we accept normal behavior instead of having to preach a far-fetched tale of gods interfering with human procreation to inject their own seed into the boiling pot? Sure sounds like Greek and Roman mythology to me. The amazing thing is the when we Muslim copy something, we are even more honest than the ones we imitate. That`s what I call plagiarism with a conscience. BTW, is it true that Mary and Joseph had other children - Jesus even had a normal brother. If so, what happened? Mary lost the magic potion?

Manto (#3),

A few thoughts on virgin birth issue …

I’d characterize views of Ahmadi-Muslims with somewhat different emphasis than you did. My understanding is that Ahmadis are not trying to prove that Jesus’ birth was the result of parthenogenesis. Rather, parthenogenesis is a mechanism that possibly explains virgin birth of Jesus.

Scientific Understanding …

Human understanding of universe continues to get refined with the passage of time. While basic understanding got established somewhat quickly, and fairly accurately, precise boundaries of human knowledge continue to be somewhat blur, especially when dealing with intricate details. With better understanding, these boundaries continue to get better defined.

An example …

Through experience, humans quickly understood the effects of physical force on physical mass. These principles were later expressed better, more accurately, in laws of classical mechanics. F=ma was the result. It was later learnt that at higher velocities, the mass of a body changes by an extremely tiny amount. Therefore, F~ma, i.e., ”F” is approximately equal to “ma”. You get the point.

Science on Virgin Birth

Similarly, scientific knowledge regarding conception also has evolved. While basics largely hold true, there is a tiny bit of deviation from what was originally understood. Consider the following trend … which sort of maps out evolution of scientific understanding regarding conception.

- Ages ago, virgin birth could not be explained at all.
- Virgin birth was then found to exist in some fish and lizards under certain climatic conditions.
- Embryos of mice and rabbits were partially developed parthenogenetically in labs.
- We then learnt that human embryos, when aided by some calcium compounds, may be activated by parthenogenesis.
- Then we discovered the case of a three-year-old boy whose skin and blood seemed to have been created by parthenogenesis.
- Some scientists accept that there is a possibility (extremely, extremely remote, though) of virgin birth of a human female, although no mechanism can explain a male birth.

All this in the past 100-or-so years. Not too shabby, in my view.

Is it possible that science may yet discover a special case of parthenogenesis which may result in birth of a male? Reviewing the evolution of human understanding of virgin birth, I would not rule out such a possibility.

#3 Mantolives, it is total ignorance when you say that virgin birth is ``unscientific``- not only do natural cases in humans exist and have been verified by scientists, the whole embryo can be manufactured outside the lab and implanted into a virgin. Now, is your ``god`` even less powerful than the lab scientists? Further this article badly mutilates the Quran, under cover of thinking, it amounts to total distortion and force fitting, something that gives those who are genuinely trying to understand Islam via the Quran alone a bad name. The Mullah has his ahistorical hadith, our author here brings in his own ``hadith`` by quoting theologians and mutilating the Quran based on whims

#4, Parthenogenesis does not NECESSARILY produce females, here is a reference

Quote<<
Many primitive peoples believe that there are two methods of human reproduction: the ordinary animal one and a higher one rarely employed -- virgin birth [4]. One belief is that the rays of the sun can fertilize women. In this regard, <>it is interesting that ultraviolet rays can cause parthenogenesis in unfertilized eggs of sea-urchins. It is also believed that moon rays, wind, rain, and certain types of food can cause impregnation. In the 19th century the Trobriand Islanders of the western Pacific insisted that cases of virgin birth still occurred among them.

Further evidence for the possibility of human parthenogenesis comes from the mysterious phenomenon of dermoid cysts [5]. These are malformed embryonic growths or tumour-like formations occasionally found in various parts of the body, including womb, ovaries, and scrotum. They often contain bones, hair, teeth, flesh, tissue, glands, portions of the scalp, face, eyes, ribs, vertebral column, and umbilical cord. They are found in males as well as females, both young and old, including virgins. They appear to be undeveloped embryos and fetuses in various stages of growth. Loeb and several other researchers argued that dermoid cysts may be related to the parthenogenetic tendency of the mammalian egg, catalyzed perhaps by an increase in blood alkalinity. However, the body`s parthenogenetic capacity is now very feeble and the generative centres lack the power to carry the reproduction process through to its proper conclusion.

It is possible that some cases of human parthenogenesis involve self-fertilization rather than true virgin birth, as there are cases of sperm being produced in women by vestigial, usually nonfunctional, male reproductive glands known as the epoöphoron (parovarium) and paroöphoron, which correspond to the seminiferous tubules of the testicles in males. In some instances, the magnetic influence and nervous excitement occasioned by attempted sexual intercourse may rouse into activity the latent, rudimentary male sex glands so that they secrete semen, resulting in impregnation [6].

(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex2.htm)

>>>

Alephnull #18,

Actually, this article was published earlier at naseeb.com with the title ``Immaculate Conception``. The author`s error was pointed out to him by several interactors, whom he thanked for the correction. Apparently, he tried to correct his mistake in this version but did a shoddy job of the editing.

Nuswanji #6

{{If the author is unable to distinguish beween the concept of ``virgin birth`` and that of the Immaculate Conception`` how much credence can we put on the rest of the article?}}

I looked for that the moment I saw the article’s title, since conflating the Virgin Birth of Christ with the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin is a very common confusion among those who are ignorant of some Christian (specifically Roman Catholic) doctrine.

However the author does write, in his eighth paragraph:

{{Generally for the Muslims, the Immaculate Conception of his mother and his own is considered sacrosanct}}

So it’s possible to stretch things and speculate that the author has simply chosen his words poorly. He may not be as ignorant as he seems at first glance.

There are 2 alternatives to the literal acceptance of the Virgin Birth story.

One is to argue that Quran does not support it altogether. The other is to accept that this story is present in the Quran but is not to be taken literally. The author makes the first argument in a weak and contradictory manner. I think the second argument is the stronger one.

Btw, what does this mean?
``Generally for the Muslims, the Immaculate Conception of his mother and his own is considered sacrosanct``
The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a strictly Catholic doctrine and is not to be found among Muslims.

Rashid, Ijaz and Manto:

It is the initial verses in the Chapter of Maryam that best describe the Virgin Birth. These verses when recited by Jaffar Tayyar in front of King Najashi of Habasah, bailed the Muslim refugees out in the land of Christians.

Re: # 9

so what is original sin? 2000 years gone - and we still have confusions on the basics :))) ?

Mantolives:

You have posted at # 3 in good faith. However, I disagree with you from another perspective.

Recently, Muslims have generally begun to challenge the Quranic verses, Ahadith and the religious interpretations thereof by our Grand Imams.

Imam Ghazali and the likes of him were knowledge specialist just like you are on Jinnah (or perhaps on history). Since I, being a Change Management person, would not like to challenge you on your area of specialization, I would expect Muslims having no specialization in religious matters not to challenge Imams. That area belongs to people who are specializing in Islamic or comparative religion, for example, or even more narrowly focusing on that very topic.

Although admittedly you are very knowledgable person, there is a tendency amongst every Tom, Dick and Harry Muslim these days to begin challenging issues relating to faith and interpretation of Scriptures and Ahadith.