The Virgin Birth

#108 SALIM_CHAUHAN

And befoe the ignorants raise Mother Theresa to the level of Godly figure..you have already done it..Great job..Carry on.

#121, Salim, The motashabey cannot all be discarded as time dependent, there are structure dependent ones, situation dependent ones etc as well that are there to ensure social justice- involving society; especially when things encroach upon the rights of others and society in general. Even the time dependent ones are very important as historical analysis, ``in their history is a lesson for people of understanding`` says the Quran

If you reduce Islam to its basic beliefs then it becomes a reactionary force, a dependent variable- that is not how the Quran envisions Islam, that is how the mullah though in different garb has been presenting it. The Quran envisions a just society with MAXIMUM individual freedom within the boundaries of justice- hense the purpose of life, ``to see which one of you is best in deed``. If we have laws for everything as the Mullah envisions or as there exist in the US bureaucratic society, that purpose becomes moot- the purpose presupposes individual freedom, the Quranic principles are merely for direction and protecting the rights of others (within an all encompassing framework of one creator God- ) and the rituals like Namaz are there to ensure such social consciousness, otherwise the Quran itself mocks the very ritual of Namaz (Quran 107:1-7).

122

there was swelling in think. hindus also have the original story of moses..mr karna was floated in a river by kunti upon birth because she was scared that noone would believeher the virgin birth.

and then rest of the pandavas were also born miraculously...u see, the king pandu although good with his bow-and-arrow, was shooting blanks and kunti got each of the pandavas from a different ``boon``. talk about biological diversity.

so, in great myths and stories, we hindus will not be beaten.

kaal bhai #117, {``Karna, you see, was born to Princess Kunti, from a `boon` by the Sungod. Quite a boon, no? ;) Supposedly, no physical contact took place. Naturally (or rather, unnaturally), nobody`s virginity was lost. :) ``}

Kaal bhayya,
LOL.

One remaining question about Kunti. Was there any swelling on anyone`s part?

masadi #120 {``Not so, the Quran as a total is not time dependent. It has two types of verses, mohkam, locked in place, explicit- and motashabey, consimilar or dependent. The law part in the Quran is social structure dependent, which cannot be implanted on any civil society other than the one envisioned by the Quran only after it has come to be. The verses that are time dependent are motashabey. The mohkam are very few, as a result the freedom offered by the Quran is greater than that offered by any bureaucratic society ``}

Asadi, my good friend.
Beautiful! Now we are getting someplace. Obviously you know what you are talking about. So, if the mokham (static) ones are very few, I would assume that they have to do with the Oneness of God and the basic foundations of Islamic belief, Allah, Prophet, Day of Judgement, treatment of fellow humans, etc. Hopefully the vast majority then are the motashabey (dynamic) which can be interpreted to suit the times, context, place, and logic dependent situations - varying in degrees, applicability, and enforcement.

So, if we hold fast to the important ones regarding our basic beliefs, we should be free to restructure our societies, rituals, and laws based on the needs and demands of the period.
I think that we are almost there. Thanks.

#104,hamidm2, how did you manage to go through school? Your comprehension abilities are baffling. I`m talking about the universe being as objective fact before any humans walked this earth and you somehow impose that on Mary having a virgin birth before humans roamed the earth!!!! Please see a shrink.

#111, stuka, fantastic, put words in my mouth, construct a straw man with them and then laugh at it. Only proves you have no integrity in constructing an argument.

#107 Salim, Not so, the Quran as a total is not time dependent. It has two types of verses, mohkam, locked in place, explicit- and motashabey, consimilar or dependent. The law part in the Quran is social structure dependent, which cannot be implanted on any civil society other than the one envisioned by the Quran only after it has come to be. The verses that are time dependent are motashabey. The mohkam are very few, as a result the freedom offered by the Quran is greater than that offered by any bureaucratic society (like the US, where freedom is a mere slogan with no essence) where rules govern your behavior from birth to death. Interpretation is to be based on word structure, usage and reason, in short the scientific method: systematic, logical framework, empirical evidence and falsification- as simple as that.

#115 Khurram, I have read the Ferris book, my quotation was to state the point that is well made. It was not to say that Ferris- who is by the way not a world authority on QM- supports it. He failed to explaiin the alternative, simple as that. He did not answer the riddle because there are no answers other than a conscious being who observed it and collapsed the wave function. No two ways about it.

fazeeta

It could be that no-good sun god again! Not to worry. Since we can match the DNA now, they will nail the tharaki for his generous `boon` this time round.

Indian tv is one step ahead of all you guys.

There is a new tv serial on Sony. It`s called`` Ek Ladki Anjaani Si.``

It is about an 18 year old virgin ladki who is accidentally implanted with someone else`s fetus.

Salim

LOL...thousands of years were more than enough to make up all sorts of stories, and Indian stories are no less weird than any other.

Karna, you see, was born to Princess Kunti, from a `boon` by the Sungod. Quite a boon, no? ;)

Supposedly, no physical contact took place. Naturally (or rather, unnaturally), nobody`s virginity was lost. :)

#112 Kaal Bhai {``You would recall, our Mahabharat is full of stories of `asexual` and `virgin` births (Karna, being one such prior incarnation of Jesus - a much more interesting and I dare say, a nobler version).``}

Kaaly Bhayya,
Is nothing sacred? First the ``Arabic`` numbering system, and now virgin births. Isn`t there anything that the monotheists didn`t copy from the ancients? Next you will tell me that Krishna was riding the chariot alongside Arjuna all the while cheerleading him to slay fellow humans. So, the God of Israel was not unique in calling for the destruction of the ``not so chosen`` ones. :) You probably think that Christmas was some kind of Roman holiday or that there is a Hindu myth about two naked people in a garden getting conned by a scherpent.

Thank you for enjoying the facts revealed to me about Mother Theresa. It`s amazing how cannonization can result in legends being created.

Yes, slogans are what we are left with when there is no logic behind what we believe.

Let`s get back to the Holy Koran
Pakistan Zindabad
Allahu Akbar, Insanu Asghar
India Shining
USA USA USA
Aim High
Islam means peace
With liberty and justice for all
Ram ram japna, paraya maal apna
Deus Vult - Death to the Infidels
For God, King, and Country
Never again (at least not against us)
Banzai

Happy New Year.

The last one is sincere.

Re: masadi #87,

If you would read the whole chapter of Ferris` book you will realize that he does not actually support this thesis. That`s why he put solved in quotes.

I hope you realize that to think of God as an observer, who observes the universe like you and I, is rather blasphemous. When we observe something a physical interaction takes place between us and the object. The entire process takes place in space and time and is subject to laws of physics. To say that God undergoes a similar interaction is to reduce him to a being like you and me and subject to the same laws.

And Lo we have another miracle!! The image of Mary on a partly eaten cheese toast.



Sold last year on ebay for $28,000. Verily the Age of Miracles is not yet over. Nor that of superstitious people..

Read All About the Latest Miracle!!

Re: # 112

Forget the Maha.... .. Even today, girls get pregnant by their boyfriends, and claim they are virgins even while having abortions - ask any gynaecologist in your neighbourhood and she ll tell you. So you can imagine the days when condoms were nt even available...

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Does anyone know what happened to the Therasa miracle case?

stuka

You would recall, our Mahabharat is full of stories of `asexual` and `virgin` births (Karna, being one such prior incarnation of Jesus - a much more interesting and I dare say, a nobler version). It`s just that all of us actually know what lay behind sundry `miraculous` births by virgins, actual paternity never being completely hidden by the authors :)

....... according to the masadi school of thoughtlessness, god went around impregnating virgins just because he could .......... ``Be !`` he said and poor mary was seeded with his seed ........... now, most sane people will agree that the likelihood of that happening is about as remote as growing a watermelon in your stomach by swallowing a melon seed - although judging by the size of a lot of black woman one can easily be misled to believe in this urban legend ........ but i digress ....

HAR HAR HAR!!! This is hilarious...

``is that expectation/action/attitude realistic and wise in our world populated by very imperfect men and women?``

A more precise rendering would be:

``is that expectation/action/attitude, adopted individually and collectively by any group, realistic and wise in our world shared with other, imperfect men and women, all seeking goals very similar to ours?``