The Virgin Birth

#75 and #76, don`t be absurd, that ``history`` you talk about predated humanity and we are talking about a conscious act of observation not a ``supernatural``- whatever the hell you mean by that- being

Re#74,

But the history only becomes real after human observation. There is no need to invoke a supernatural being.

oh, now i get it ! .......... it is that old tree falling in the forest thingy ........

masadi mian, unless and untill a human being observes it, verifies it and writes it down in his/her little notebook it doesn`t matter if the tree fell with or without making a noise ............ so unless god, the father, has some human witnesses who can vouch that he did not have sexual relations with that woman it is hard for us to believe that god, the son, is the result of some scientific miracle ........... look, if it hadn`t been for the blue dress all those people in the blue states would still believe that old bill clinton was a saint - if poor monica had to present evidence we cannot let mary off the hook this easy ........... it is just not fair ......

#73, the universe has a history before humanity came to be- a fact. Just because you don`t know of any scientist does not mean they dont exist, check the references at http://www.rationalreality.com and linked articles.

Re #71.

What becomes real by an act of observation is not only the current state of the particle but it`s entire history. It`s meaningless to talk about the existence of the particle before it is observed by anyone.

I know of no scientist who would agree with your interpretation that `someone` was observing the particle before it was currently observed.

``I will turn away from My signs those who are proud in the earth without justice; and if they see every sign they (still) do not believe in it; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take it for a way, and if they see the way of error, they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our signs and were heedless of them.``
(Quran 7:146)

For potential states to become real, the act of observation by an observer is necessary. Who was doing the observing when the universe came to be or who observes today as potential states are transformed into universe-wide reality? Comprendey?

I cannot help you if you deny established scientific explanations my friend, neither can I help you if you deny the obvious

masadi #68,

``......that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation.``

Actually, this argument leads to the exact opposite conclusion. It is human observations that are collapsing all the wave functions. Humans have never found a wave function that was already collapsed because some other entity had observed it.

Re: # 68

sorry, call me dumb, but i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ..... all this collapsing wave stuff is beyond me - do you mind explaining it in plain english ?......... it seems to me that this is typical of the attempts by religious zealots to obfuscate and confuse by using highfalutin scientifc jargon to diguise the hollowness of their silly arguments ......... this my friend, is real gibberish !

...... all i am saying is that it in not possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex, even if it is with god...... and that is that .......... i will buy your argument about in-vitro fertilization if you can produce the petri dish from bethlehem ........... be and it is, indeed!

#62 hamidm2 you say, <<< ............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom >>>

Since the ``be and it is`` part, is part of the discussion regarding the virgin birth, I will entertain your gibberish here. First Hoodbuoy is totally dumb when it comes to understanding religion and science- his example of science is, ``if you jump out the window, you`ll hit the ground``- that is not science, that might be the effect of gravity. Science is first and foremost, a methodology, a way to do research to get to the truth. You can use that methodology in any field, including religion.

That said, I told you to read all the posts before you make your dumb assertions, read #1 again. The ``be and it is`` part is a scientific fact, without that this world would neither have managed to become real, not would the day to day affairs of the world manage to assume any concrete reality. As a physicist, Hoodbuoy either knows this and deliberately hides it or is being totally incompetent (which would explain the sorry state of education in Pakistan).

I wrote as part of post #1, <<< Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. >>>

Now hamidm2, give it up man. You come up with these missiles that you randomly fire at Islam in order to disprove it and your missiles fail like Saddam`s scuds, yet you keep firing those old, worn out, missiles one after the other. Even Saddam gave up his trust in scuds after a while shouldn`t you?

#64, hamidm2, are you totally dumb? This is the third time you have made a post that deracts from the topic. We are discussing virgin birth and you want the cure for cancer? This is totally atrocious? Do you have no sense of decency? You want to disprove Islam or religion or whatever, do it on a forum that discusses that topic~ don`t try to drag this discussion here into absurd directions.

#65, *that not than - read that Gabriel dude.

Jesus was a good man. Mo, Sr. was a good man as was Mo, Jr. It`s all the cock n bull and poppycock show n tell stories that spinmasters came up with that dilutes their message. In the old days, if you couldn`t do magic, you were not a holy man of good repute. So that`s why the Gamora Avenue advertising sheiks came up with turning water into wine, raising the dead, parting the sea, making a scherpent out of a schtick, flyin on a white horse all over creation, blowin horns till the walls came down, and havin a baby without getting banged. Either than Gabriel dude was one omnipresent comedian or they were all smoking some bad shit.

``Human egg cells can be duped with chemicals and electric shocks to begin growing like embryos, which are coveted as stem cell sources``

..... and what is more perverse is the predictable and rather annoying habit of the religiously impaired to use recent scientific knowledge to explain past ``miracles`` .......... every time you turn around somone is claiming that such and such event was ``foretold`` in the torah or the bible or the koran or some other silly text of dubious origin .......... why the heck don`t they tell us about these things before they happen and make it easier on all of us ?? .......... if god was running around with mary`s eggs in a petri dish and dupng them with chemicals to create his son, why didn`t he pass on that knowledge to us .............. why did it take centuries for us to figure out ivf techniques on our own?....... why is he so stingy with his intellectual property ?

........ if these charlatans really want to establish their credibility, they have to do better than this - tell us something we don`t already know ............. how about telling us how to cure cancer or make hydrogen fuel cells on the cheap ?............ save us thousands of man-hours and billions of dollars in research and we will convert to christianity or islam or whatever it is that you are pushing ............ it really doesn`t do us any good if tomorrow, after the chinese have found a cure for cancer, some bearded idiot comes up and says, ``the prophet said, go to china for chop suey and knowledge !``............ i don`t know about you guys, but i am gong to slap this guy silly and say, ``god told me not to suffer fools gladly !``

rsridhar #53 {``I am surprised u fell for it. My post # 31 was my way of pulling Masadi dude`s leg. His posts do not make much sense to me ``}

Rsridhar dude,
I am so confused about the pool, the voigin, the three wise guys, and the jerk that at this point I am ready to believe everything, including Mary Magdeline being Mrs. Christ. I mean with all the holiday shopping and traffic jams and no parking spaces, I just hoped that they would have put enough chlorine in the pool. Now wait till somebody posts that the tadpoles thrive in chlorine.

``When God decides upon a matter he says ``Be and it is`` !!!!!

....... according to the masadi school of thoughtlessness, god went around impregnating virgins just because he could .......... ``Be !`` he said and poor mary was seeded with his seed ........... now, most sane people will agree that the likelihood of that happening is about as remote as growing a watermelon in your stomach by swallowing a melon seed - although judging by the size of a lot of black woman one can easily be misled to believe in this urban legend ........ but i digress .......

............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom and also brainwashing innocent children into becoming suicide bombers .......... ``a flame will burn paper because god wills it``, .... oh, okay ....... ``you should blow yourself up because god wants you too``..... oh, okay ......... and boom ! god`s will is done .............

....... what kind of affliction leads grown men and women to believe in this poppycock; what kind of sickness leads to this cockamamie reasoning (or unreasoning) ............some would say it is fear - fear of the unknown and fear of death - that drives people to buy this horse hooey pedalled by unscrupulous prophets and priests .......... but i think it is plain old laziness ......... it is much easier to believe that jesus` mom was a virgin than try and take on the pope, the ayatollah and the orc lord ............