The Virgin Birth

#44, Don`t accuse me of supporting killing, I have never and will never support religiously inspired violence. The Quran is totally against that. You are lying and this amounts to libel. Jesus was as much a prophet of Islam as the prophet Muhammad.

....... talking about jesus like this on the eve of his birth is blasphemy .... or is it ?........ isn`t it amazing how people like masadi who are willing to kill people for doubting mo of mecca are okay with discussing His paternity...........

#39, not so, that is your distorted understanding of the Quranic term ``aya`` or sign. The verses of the Quran are called aya also does not mean they are unscientific or unreasonable or humanity cannot arrive at the same truth through different process. For something to be a sign it does have to be impossible, day and night are defined by the same word aya in the Quran (17:12), and day and night follows natural processes; you are generalizing based on your ``narrow`` understanding of miracle.

So, what is a miracle?

If an event can be explained by natural causes does it cease to be a miracle? This would rule out all miracles. Which is a perfectly consistent point of view to hold.

On the other hand, a miracle can be thought of as a perfectly natural event that, by its special context, inspires in us a profound sense of wonder and enables us to glimpse the divine dimension of existence.

A miracle is not to be confused with a `miracle story`. A miracle story is a narrative in which the sense of wonder originally experienced (e.g. in the presence of Jesus) is communicated through symbols (e.g. virgin birth, resurrection etc.). Such stories are not to be taken literally.

Hmmm, # 40 isn`t too respectful of the fellow, who, after all, wasn`t of a bad sort. Chowk staff, could you please delete that post? :(

Gill sahib # 39 has a point. Mr. Jesus must have been a freak of nature - product of a scientifically feasible but uncommon occurrence.

Along the lines of a donkey blessed with two heads, a child born unencumbered with a brain, or a toad spawned by a virgin froggess (an european female frog).

Biological oddities, all.

If `virgin birth` can be explained scientifically, all the magic goes out of it. It ceases to be a divine miracle. And virgin birth was supposed to be a miracle.
One can not have it both ways. If virgin birth was a divine miracle as is traditionally believed then science or no science, it should remain unique and unparalleled. If virgin birth can occur without any divine intervention then it ceases to be a miracle.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Mohammad Gill

Re: # 32

A very interesting tale - this time of a Hindu fanatic.

......... i can imagine all those warning signs on the beach and at swimming pools ! ........ and to think people were scared to go into the water after seeing Shark - wait till they get a load of the nasty little tadpoles !

rsridhar #31 {``Let us say a virgin woman is swimming in a pool (where men and women are both allowed, so we are talking about a more liberal society like the West), a man also swimming nearby, ejaculates. You can finish the rest of the story in your mind, can`t u? ``}

Virgin swimming in pool getting impregnated by jerk jerking off nearby. That does it. I am sorry, I questioned the frickin cock n bull story in the first place. Considering Mr. Rsridhar`s logical explanation of possibilities, I am inclined to believe the original story of angelic visit, immaculate conception, and virgin birth. Gimme a break.

Re: # 28 YLH

what are you talking about?

re: Masadi`s post
(Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. )
This is what i call ``intellecutal masturbation``.
Not even the guy who wrote it would know what he/she is talking about.
Sridhar

re: Fall of man
I think the church has wrongly accused Eve of the cause of man`s fall. It was not so. Both are to be blamed!
Sridhar

re: garden of Eden and fall of man: a deeper spiritual meaning
Most stories from bible and other scriptures, epics have a deeper spiritual meaning that has been lost to mankind. Eastern sages and seers have always believed that the garden of Eden that Bible talks about is in reality ``the inner spiritual state`` of Man (i include both men and women here). There was a time (depicted in Hindu Scriptures as ``Satyuga`` or the times when spirituality and virtues prevailed) when Man was deeply spiritual and was in constant ``inner communion`` with God. Adam and Eve in Bible are symbolic of that state. Eastern sages would call that a state of ``sat-chit-Ananda`` or the ever present, conscious, bliss. In that state, both man and woman lived in bliss and unaware of their physical bodies and in deep communion with God. In this state, there is no shame, no guilt, no ego. Only bliss! (To this day in India, many Naga Sadhus go around completely naked, to the utter embarassment of people. they are not ashamed of their nakedness while the rest are!).
So, if u are to believe the ancient wisdom of the sages and seers (as i do), then there was sucha time in remote past when Man lived in the Garden of Eden.
What happened then?
As per the bible, God warns Man not to partake of the apple from the Tree but enjoy everything else. This too has a deeper inner meaning. According to the eastern sages, the tree is nothing but the inverted spine of man,with spinal cord as the trunk, nerves as the branches. The apple at the center then refers to the sexual organs.
God was warning man not to indulge in sex! Serpent (symbolic of man`s desires) tempts him and he breaks God`s commandment and indulges in sex. This refers to the times that followed the ``satyuga`` when man lost spirituality slowly and became more mateiralistic, indulging in fulfilment of ``baser desires`` and slowly forgetting God. This is the state man lives in today.
When man in the Garden of Eden succumbed to the temptation and indulged in sex with Eve, he immediately fell from his exalted status. This is the real meaning of Fall of Man. From a divine being, he became a beast. Men during the ``satyuga`` did indugle in sex but only for procreation. Later, sex became a thing for recreation, and procreation is now the result.
When Man fell from God`s grace, God soon found out. Bible says God found out when Man was ashamed of his own nakedness! God knows everything, so He does not have to infer from Man`s nakedness that he has fallen. This again is symbolic. Once man had sex, he was no more in the state of ``inner communion``. He was no more in that state of bliss where he was unaware of his body, and had no guilt or shame. Soon after his fall, he became acutely aware of his own physical body and for the first time, of his own nakedness. This gave rise to shame, an ego-based feeling that did not exist before. God knew then man has broken His commandment.
Patanjali`s Yogasutra says Man can reclaim the Garden of Eden through a scientific yoga technique (called Ashtanga yoga by him but called ``kriya yoga`` in modern times) that was well known to ancient sages and yogis but got lost in the tide ot times. It is slowly resurfacing today. I shall talk more about it in my future posts.
Sridhar

re:#25 by masadi
If you stretch your imagination a little, virgin birth can happen. Let us say a virgin woman is swimming in a pool (where men and women are both allowed, so we are talking about a more liberal society like the West), a man also swimming nearby, ejaculates. You can finish the rest of the story in your mind, can`t u?
Now, fertilisation of ovum by a sperm is essential to have a zygote, that goes on to form a fetus and baby. In the ancient times, sexual intercourse was the only way. Now-a-days, ART (Artificial Reproductive Technology) has ensured that even a virgin can have a baby with donor sperms!
Sridhar

Re. #15 Original sin is usually thought of as the propensity to evil that exists within all humans and is thought to be the consequence of the act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Personally I think that the curiosity that prompted Eve to disobey is the root of al science, so perversely, religion(s) was quite right in identifying curiosity, and the refusal to obey dictats, as the main obstacle to its hegemony.

Perhaps at this time we should concentrate on the message of love and goodwill rather than more obscure facets of religion; although most religious people will insist that without the ``miracles`` of virgin birth and the resurrection Christ`s message was no more worthy of veneration than that of many other wise men.