The Virgin Birth

Re: # 90

The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing.

The second thing is I am fairly conversant with your views on God and Religion. And I dont consider God and Religions to be a topic of debate or discussions. They are a matter of faith. Either you believe in them or dont believe in them. There cannot be anything as ``scientific believing`` or ``logical believing`` for God.

Re: # 91
``The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing. ``

LOL. Yes, that could be the only possible answer, as the miracle creators of those days could not have even imagined that one day all these would have been discovered to be possible.

Re: # 92

If you are happy with that...I am happy with that..

We humans are imaginary in our nature. Brining to lives somethings imaginary like Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters etc. can be understood. But what is the point in killing something...which according to you...does not exist at all. Let Him also live along with Godzillas, Kingkongs and Harry Potters....what is the harm??

Re: # 94

`` ... Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters ... ``

There is a difference, because there are no multi billion dollar organisations at work trying to convince young children around the world that HE, Harry Potter the Great, really does exist.

By the way, have you heard anything about the Therasa miracle?

In #87, the second line after the quotation should read `` prevents them from understanding the message of the Quran.``

#84, I will also have to repeat what I said earlier, with a reference:

Timothy Ferris states in his book, The Whole Shebang :

``...the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics treats as real only observed phenomena, raising the riddle how the EARLY universe could have evolved in the absence of observers. The riddle may be ``solved`` by invoking God as the supreme observer, who by scrutinizing all particles converts their quantum potentials into actual states (Ferris, page 308).``

#86, Muslims need to return to the Quran, centuries of corruption has been canonized under the banners of hadith and fiqh which prevents them to understand the message of the Quran. Only a total purge/removal of extra Quranic material can result in a pure return to the message of the Quran- half baked measures of picking and sifting and choosing will always mask the message, cause division and distortion.

To a lesser extent, Islam too has been victimized by the airbrushing applied to facts. Numerous Hadiths were fabricated to justify almost every conflicting point of view. Miracles that meant a lot in those days of utter ignorance, are now exposed as mere tricks to impress the general public and compete with other unbelievable and awesome magic of other faiths.

Our challenge in this age is to distinguish between reality and fabrication, between what is relevant today and what was deemed necessary in the past. Unfortunately there are too many vested interests that won`t allow an honest examination of events. Popes, Mullahs, and back to Israel Zionists have no incentive to learn the real truth. Their hard work and positions of power may not look all that solid and divinely inspired once the onion is unwrapped.

Too much of early Christian history has been lost, sanctified, erased, burned, and eradicated by the events of the 4th through 6th centuries. Constantine and his successors eliminated most competing and what they considered less than miraculous happenings in the life of Jesus. The religious literature of numerous sects, including Monophysites, Nostics, and others has been deliberately wiped out to portray the image of Jesus as recorded in the gospels that were officially sanctioned. Other gospels were kept out of the New Testament, even though they were far more relevant to Christianity than, for example, the Book of Revelations. We are left with rumors surrounding the virgin birth, presence of siblings procreated by Joseph and Mary, the special association of Mary Magdeline with Jesus, and the prevailing philosophy of Paul. The transformation of a religion born among Jews speaking Aramaic into a philosophy of Greeks, Greek-Egyptians, and then Romans, not to mention the influence of barbarians such as Goths, Vandals, Lombards, and Franks has removed many links to reality. Celebration of Christmas in December is just one of the few anamolies resulting from this manufactured state religion of the Byzantines. Even today, the officials in Rome refuse to lend a helping hand in determining the truth - consider the Dead Sea scrolls and what happened to that great find.

Re #82,

I will just have to repeat what I said earlier.

In the quantum mechanical world, the history of a particle before an observation is CREATED at the time of observation. There is no prior non-human observation.

Quantum mechanics does not necessitate the existence of God.

Re #81

I wasn`t discussing the Virgin Birth with masadi. I was just questioning his assertion that quantum mechanics has somehow established God as a fact.

Regarding the Virgin Birth I have already expressed my opinion in #42.

#79, what you say proves my point not yours. Since human consciousness post dates the objective fact of the universe, the observation of a universal nature is non-human. #80 and #81, you are being dumb again. We were discussing the act of observation in Quantum systems as related to the ``Be and it is`` part, which is mentioned in the Quran related to that context, and which you were trying to ridicule in your usual ``scud missile`` manner.

Re: # 82

nasadi,

......... like all religious zealots you are a master of obfuscation !........... so now you are saying that the phenomenon of the virgin birth is a ``non-human`` event that predates human conciousness !........ i beg to disagree, but i do believe humans were around when god had sex with mary so we should be able to find some witnesses (hopefully not four, because then poor mary would be in a lot of trouble !)

masadi,

...... can you explain what all this has to do with christ`s paternity ?....... i read your post #1 and found it to be totally irrelevant ......... call me dense, but i need an explanation, not yet another obfuscation ........

......... just because mary said ``no man has touched me`` doesn`t make it true - remember zohra fauna who had presidents and sheiks fooled with a recording of the azan coming in from between her thighs !!!! ........ and that was in the late sixties ...... now imagine how stupid people must have been two thousand years ago - even you could have sold them this wave theory nonsense ........... but i still don`t get what you are trying to say and i am a pretty smart guy (god created me in his own image)

Btw, your assertion that a particle has objective history before observation is disproved by the ``Delayed-choice double slit experiment`` . Please check it out.

Re: # 79

khurram mian,

...... i think it is a bit of a stretch to compare observing sub-atomic particles to believing in conception without sex ! .......... particles that you don`t know about are okay - when you know about them you will know about them, and in the meantime you can carry on with your life ......... but to perpetuate lies and myths and tell people that such and such thing exists, even though there is no evidence and no witnesses, is dishonest and dangerous ..........

Re #77,

If you think your view is such an established fact, why haven`t all the scientists become theists. Surely, they must have other interpretations.