The Virgin Birth

Do you have any proof that Jesus was the leader of a radical faction of Essene priests.
I do not think there is any strong proof about this

Excuse me chowkies can any one tell me whats this article is meant for? we all know what christain`s bible or sorry the edited bible says and and what christain believe and what Quran And muslims have to say. Is this article for Non-Muslims or Just a remainder to those who have forget their religion? Is this article for so called Moderate Muslim (Moderate Muslim: People who like to call themselve muslim but don`t believe in practice)?

I REALLY WANNA KNOW WHAT THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT

A pointer to Mill`s relationship to/with Islam, if any, will also be very helpful. It goes without saying, thanks for your help.

A happy new year to you, Masadi ji, and to all other chowkies!

masadi ji

Can you provide or guide us to an explication of Godel`s/Sartre`s understanding of and support for the religion of Islam? Thanks.

``I like Islam, it is a consistent idea of religion and open-minded``

(Kurt Godel as quoted by Hoo Wang in ``A Logical Journey: From Godel to Philosophy``, Hao Wang. The MIT Press. 1996. Cambridge Massachusetts)


Here is a ref site http://godel.rationalreality.com

To all Chowkies:

Haiy tau yeh rasm-e-zamanah, lekan phir bhi
Ho mubarak tumhain yeh saal nya, meray rafiq

Happy New Year

Mohammad Gill

#134, That`s right. As good, rational, and logical Muslims, we should just believe in the flying white horse galloping amuck throughout the heavens. :)

W/out skimming through all 133 replies, has anyone pointed out that ``virgin birth`` is a common theme in ancient Near-Eastern religions? It was a common way of attributing Divinity to various gods/entities/individuals/etc, as well as allowing erring women (assuming people believed them) to escape the punishment for their ``sins.`` (The men, of course, usually escape w/out the need for such subterfuge.)

And both idiotic Christians and Muslims buy this BS? I second Hamidm, and P.T. Barnum, that there is a sucker born every minute!

#131, Khurram, you write <<< Did God stop observing the universe when humans started? Why do we even have uncollapsed wavefunctions since God is observing every moment? >>>

First, what do u want to convince me of? You have no explanation, Ferris has no alternative explanation and the ONLY explanation that can explain that otherwise inexplicible ``fairy tale`` that scientists just gloss over having absolutely no explanation for, is the act of observation by God, the ``Be``.

That said, to answer your question, 1, No, human observation is limited and diverse unlike what we see in the day to day working of the universe and the earth, being observed by the one without whose knowledge not even a ``leaf falls``.

2. uncollapsed wave functions~ why do u want to hurry things up, the Quran states for every event is a ``time determined``. They will collapse but not at your bidding.

Re: masadi #120,

OK, one last try at convincing you.

Did God stop observing the universe when humans started? Why do we even have uncollapsed wavefunctions since God is observing every moment?

#126, Kaal Bhai {``I reckon the lady inhaled the `boon,` and if there was any swelling at all, it must have been the work of that air. Scientifically possible, I would think, godly air miraculously causing swelling of a poor woman`s belly. kyun? :) ``}

Kaal Bhai,
That synchronizes with the virgin in a pool theory proposed by Shri Rsridhar earlier. :)
So, now we know that air and water are not good prophylactics. :)
Neither water nor air, nor snow nor hail will prevent ....

#124 masadi {``Salim, The motashabey cannot all be discarded as time dependent, there are structure dependent ones, situation dependent ones etc as well that are there to ensure social justice- involving society; especially when things encroach upon the rights of others and society in general..
If you reduce Islam to its basic beliefs then it becomes a reactionary force, a dependent variable- that is not how the Quran envisions Islam, that is how the mullah though in different garb has been presenting it. The Quran envisions a just society with MAXIMUM individual freedom ... otherwise the Quran itself mocks the very ritual of Namaz ``}

Asadi Bhai,
Obviously you are a very learned person and you demonstrate a keen awareness of what is important and what is ritualistic in Islam. Reading your responses, I am inclined to think that you too believe in individual rights, compassion, justice, and forgiveness. I am glad that you find flexibility in Islam and not the rigid, suffocating religion that many of our Mullahs have mutated for some ungodly reason. Thanks.

#125 bolta aina {``And befoe the ignorants raise Mother Theresa to the level of Godly figure..you have already done it..Great job..Carry on.``}

Talking Shiny,
Thank you. Someone had to do it. Why wait around for decades before we create another legend? Now, please get off your high white flying horse before you go all over creation riding amuck. :)

Re: # 128

No further comments from my side. I am constrained by my limitation of ``Eent ka jawab patthar``, which you all guys are so expert in.

Jang, #123 {``and kunti got each of the pandavas from a different ``boon``. talk about biological diversity. so, in great myths and stories, we hindus will not be beaten.``}

Jang,
Seriously, I think the Hindus should have obtained patents. Someone should research the monotheistic holy books and find the ones that have been plagiarized. Imagine, even the lil Mo in the Nile story has been lifted. Let`s see if Moses was around 1250 BC or 3250 years ago, don`t you think the Mahabharat is quite a bit older than that?
Poor Kunti was an accident just waiting to happen. Didn`t they wear any clothes in those days?

re: # 123 Jang

Ha ha....many of these stories are full, in a matter of fact way, of sex, and nobody considers that unusual, or gets too worked up over that. :)

Salim

I reckon the lady inhaled the `boon,` and if there was any swelling at all, it must have been the work of that air.

Scientifically possible, I would think, godly air miraculously causing swelling of a poor woman`s belly. kyun? :)

#108 SALIM_CHAUHAN

And befoe the ignorants raise Mother Theresa to the level of Godly figure..you have already done it..Great job..Carry on.

#121, Salim, The motashabey cannot all be discarded as time dependent, there are structure dependent ones, situation dependent ones etc as well that are there to ensure social justice- involving society; especially when things encroach upon the rights of others and society in general. Even the time dependent ones are very important as historical analysis, ``in their history is a lesson for people of understanding`` says the Quran

If you reduce Islam to its basic beliefs then it becomes a reactionary force, a dependent variable- that is not how the Quran envisions Islam, that is how the mullah though in different garb has been presenting it. The Quran envisions a just society with MAXIMUM individual freedom within the boundaries of justice- hense the purpose of life, ``to see which one of you is best in deed``. If we have laws for everything as the Mullah envisions or as there exist in the US bureaucratic society, that purpose becomes moot- the purpose presupposes individual freedom, the Quranic principles are merely for direction and protecting the rights of others (within an all encompassing framework of one creator God- ) and the rituals like Namaz are there to ensure such social consciousness, otherwise the Quran itself mocks the very ritual of Namaz (Quran 107:1-7).

122

there was swelling in think. hindus also have the original story of moses..mr karna was floated in a river by kunti upon birth because she was scared that noone would believeher the virgin birth.

and then rest of the pandavas were also born miraculously...u see, the king pandu although good with his bow-and-arrow, was shooting blanks and kunti got each of the pandavas from a different ``boon``. talk about biological diversity.

so, in great myths and stories, we hindus will not be beaten.

kaal bhai #117, {``Karna, you see, was born to Princess Kunti, from a `boon` by the Sungod. Quite a boon, no? ;) Supposedly, no physical contact took place. Naturally (or rather, unnaturally), nobody`s virginity was lost. :) ``}

Kaal bhayya,
LOL.

One remaining question about Kunti. Was there any swelling on anyone`s part?

masadi #120 {``Not so, the Quran as a total is not time dependent. It has two types of verses, mohkam, locked in place, explicit- and motashabey, consimilar or dependent. The law part in the Quran is social structure dependent, which cannot be implanted on any civil society other than the one envisioned by the Quran only after it has come to be. The verses that are time dependent are motashabey. The mohkam are very few, as a result the freedom offered by the Quran is greater than that offered by any bureaucratic society ``}

Asadi, my good friend.
Beautiful! Now we are getting someplace. Obviously you know what you are talking about. So, if the mokham (static) ones are very few, I would assume that they have to do with the Oneness of God and the basic foundations of Islamic belief, Allah, Prophet, Day of Judgement, treatment of fellow humans, etc. Hopefully the vast majority then are the motashabey (dynamic) which can be interpreted to suit the times, context, place, and logic dependent situations - varying in degrees, applicability, and enforcement.

So, if we hold fast to the important ones regarding our basic beliefs, we should be free to restructure our societies, rituals, and laws based on the needs and demands of the period.
I think that we are almost there. Thanks.

#104,hamidm2, how did you manage to go through school? Your comprehension abilities are baffling. I`m talking about the universe being as objective fact before any humans walked this earth and you somehow impose that on Mary having a virgin birth before humans roamed the earth!!!! Please see a shrink.

#111, stuka, fantastic, put words in my mouth, construct a straw man with them and then laugh at it. Only proves you have no integrity in constructing an argument.

#107 Salim, Not so, the Quran as a total is not time dependent. It has two types of verses, mohkam, locked in place, explicit- and motashabey, consimilar or dependent. The law part in the Quran is social structure dependent, which cannot be implanted on any civil society other than the one envisioned by the Quran only after it has come to be. The verses that are time dependent are motashabey. The mohkam are very few, as a result the freedom offered by the Quran is greater than that offered by any bureaucratic society (like the US, where freedom is a mere slogan with no essence) where rules govern your behavior from birth to death. Interpretation is to be based on word structure, usage and reason, in short the scientific method: systematic, logical framework, empirical evidence and falsification- as simple as that.

#115 Khurram, I have read the Ferris book, my quotation was to state the point that is well made. It was not to say that Ferris- who is by the way not a world authority on QM- supports it. He failed to explaiin the alternative, simple as that. He did not answer the riddle because there are no answers other than a conscious being who observed it and collapsed the wave function. No two ways about it.

fazeeta

It could be that no-good sun god again! Not to worry. Since we can match the DNA now, they will nail the tharaki for his generous `boon` this time round.

Indian tv is one step ahead of all you guys.

There is a new tv serial on Sony. It`s called`` Ek Ladki Anjaani Si.``

It is about an 18 year old virgin ladki who is accidentally implanted with someone else`s fetus.

Salim

LOL...thousands of years were more than enough to make up all sorts of stories, and Indian stories are no less weird than any other.

Karna, you see, was born to Princess Kunti, from a `boon` by the Sungod. Quite a boon, no? ;)

Supposedly, no physical contact took place. Naturally (or rather, unnaturally), nobody`s virginity was lost. :)

#112 Kaal Bhai {``You would recall, our Mahabharat is full of stories of `asexual` and `virgin` births (Karna, being one such prior incarnation of Jesus - a much more interesting and I dare say, a nobler version).``}

Kaaly Bhayya,
Is nothing sacred? First the ``Arabic`` numbering system, and now virgin births. Isn`t there anything that the monotheists didn`t copy from the ancients? Next you will tell me that Krishna was riding the chariot alongside Arjuna all the while cheerleading him to slay fellow humans. So, the God of Israel was not unique in calling for the destruction of the ``not so chosen`` ones. :) You probably think that Christmas was some kind of Roman holiday or that there is a Hindu myth about two naked people in a garden getting conned by a scherpent.

Thank you for enjoying the facts revealed to me about Mother Theresa. It`s amazing how cannonization can result in legends being created.

Yes, slogans are what we are left with when there is no logic behind what we believe.

Let`s get back to the Holy Koran
Pakistan Zindabad
Allahu Akbar, Insanu Asghar
India Shining
USA USA USA
Aim High
Islam means peace
With liberty and justice for all
Ram ram japna, paraya maal apna
Deus Vult - Death to the Infidels
For God, King, and Country
Never again (at least not against us)
Banzai

Happy New Year.

The last one is sincere.

Re: masadi #87,

If you would read the whole chapter of Ferris` book you will realize that he does not actually support this thesis. That`s why he put solved in quotes.

I hope you realize that to think of God as an observer, who observes the universe like you and I, is rather blasphemous. When we observe something a physical interaction takes place between us and the object. The entire process takes place in space and time and is subject to laws of physics. To say that God undergoes a similar interaction is to reduce him to a being like you and me and subject to the same laws.

And Lo we have another miracle!! The image of Mary on a partly eaten cheese toast.



Sold last year on ebay for $28,000. Verily the Age of Miracles is not yet over. Nor that of superstitious people..

Read All About the Latest Miracle!!

stuka

You would recall, our Mahabharat is full of stories of `asexual` and `virgin` births (Karna, being one such prior incarnation of Jesus - a much more interesting and I dare say, a nobler version). It`s just that all of us actually know what lay behind sundry `miraculous` births by virgins, actual paternity never being completely hidden by the authors :)

Re: # 112

Forget the Maha.... .. Even today, girls get pregnant by their boyfriends, and claim they are virgins even while having abortions - ask any gynaecologist in your neighbourhood and she ll tell you. So you can imagine the days when condoms were nt even available...

---

Does anyone know what happened to the Therasa miracle case?

....... according to the masadi school of thoughtlessness, god went around impregnating virgins just because he could .......... ``Be !`` he said and poor mary was seeded with his seed ........... now, most sane people will agree that the likelihood of that happening is about as remote as growing a watermelon in your stomach by swallowing a melon seed - although judging by the size of a lot of black woman one can easily be misled to believe in this urban legend ........ but i digress ....

HAR HAR HAR!!! This is hilarious...

``is that expectation/action/attitude realistic and wise in our world populated by very imperfect men and women?``

A more precise rendering would be:

``is that expectation/action/attitude, adopted individually and collectively by any group, realistic and wise in our world shared with other, imperfect men and women, all seeking goals very similar to ours?``

re: salim # 107

``We need more than just slogans.``

Hats off to you. Far more than slogans is what we in EVERY religion need.

I am not qualified to point the way for Muslims or anyone else, but if I could make one suggestion, it would be; please, please, please, don`t be taken in by empty rhetoric. Rhetorical words are almost always used to numb the minds and kill the god-gifted understanding of people in the audience, never to sharpen either.

If we are not to be taken for a ride, as we have been for centuries, we need to always ask: OK, what does this mean in actual, real world, for each of us actual, real people? And is that expectation/action/attitude realistic and wise in our world populated by very imperfect men and women?

None of it is a reflection of Masadi ji`s views, which I have not been able to track with care.

---

# 108

LOL...And your comment on the Pope elsewhere was right on the money.

#97 by bolta_aaina {``So you mean to say that Mother Theresa was a quack??``}

Talking Shiny,
No, but the people who exaggerate, and thus dilute, her accomplishments are the real quacks. I won`t be surprised if, in a couple of decades, we find out some great tales about the saintly human being, spun by these latter-day Homers;

Mother Theresa was born in Harlem and flew over to the slums of Calcutta accompanied by three angels who guided her trip
Mother Theresa faced violent anger at the hands of the evil heathen Hindus whose government placed every obstacle in her path
She managed to fight the polytheistic heathens and ministered to the poor, the dying, the sick, and the untouchables - all the while standing up to the repressive regime
She brought the dead back, she turned garbage into food, and she was considered a goddess to the poor and rejected of India
She brought down the cruel and oppressive rule of Pakis in the eastern wing of that infidel country
She defeated Islamic terrorists who were against her missionary work in the slums
She did not really die, but was lifted to by God to serve the miserably sick people in heaven.

Masadi, #86, {``Muslims need to return to the Quran``}

Asadi sahib,
This is the answer given for every question. Come on, that is not fair. How can we return to a book, whose context and admonitions are certainly, and hopefully, time dependent? Who is going to provide the interpretations that are applicable to us now once we have all returned to the Holy Koran? We need more than just slogans. We need a thorough reevaluation of our religion - to make it much more meaningful and as you said to shed the centuries of excess baggage. Thanks.

Bolta ji

It is reasonable to be benevolently indifferent to `faith` only when faith is not used to promote social goals contrary to one`s interests.

I think this supposed cloning job done by God is as allegorical as the cloning by Koreans.
:-)

Well-researched article, with sensible conclusions. The real blasphemy is to not use ones God-given faculties to see and to think, which is what is done in spades in the muslim world.

So glad to see my dear Mamujan on Chowk.

-Aisha Sarwari

Talking of miracles, there is an interesting story about a recent `miacle` attributed to Mother Therasa. As we know, the Pope wanted to make her a `Saint`, and a miracle was necessary for the purpose.

Soon, a lady claimed that she was cured of a tumor in her tummy after she had a `vision` of Therasa. This fitted in well with the Vaticans plans. A doctor who treated this lady ( a Bangladeshi muslim, if I remember correctly), saw her picture in a newspaper, and called up and said that she had treated this lady for TB of her tummy.

The great scheme came crashing down, but I have nt heard of it since.

But I am sure that this will be one of the many many `miracles` that the fanatics will `convince` generations of young culpable minds with, till they are convinced about god and all the other fables.

Re: # 93

So you mean to say that Mother Theresa was a quack??

Re: # 97

``So you mean to say that Mother Theresa was a quack??``
No. I said nothing of that sort. On the other hand, I have admiration for whatever she did for the poor.

I just wanted to know about the progress of the controversial, 20th century, `miracles` attributed to her.

Re: # 98

Frankly speaking, such things do not exist..I agree...But as far as religion and God are concerned...it is too early for mankind to shun these principles... so you have to bear them..for atleast 1000 more years...

Re: # 99

The issue you are raising is itself a topic for another debate.
I just wanted to know about the progress of the controversial, 20th century, `miracles` attributed to Therasa. Have you heard of them at all?

Re: # 100

I, for one, pick up only those stones which are relevant to me..not all. These so-called miracles....neither do I subscribe to them nor do I reject them. I am simply indifferent to them.

Re: # 101

This is not a philosophical question I have raised, but a very literal one. How do you remain `indifferent` when you hear of Therasa-related miracles? You either hear about them, or dont. Or `pretend` to be indifferent.

I just wanted to know about the progress of the controversial, 20th century, `miracles` attributed to Therasa. Have you heard of them at all?

Re: # 102

Truly speaking...NO

Thank God the topic went over head...though it is interesting.

Vigin Births are possible, scientifically..but with divine intervention..I may add.

It is a fact that men are more man and lesser woman. Similarly, women are more woman and lesser man. A woman exists in a man and a man exists in a women. The most common example given is the presence of nipples on a man`s chest. Why do they exist?

It is His arrangement. Consider a situation that mankind loses all its men and only women are left. Or all women are lost and only men are left. In that case, it will be the end of mankind. No., the believers say. God, if He wants, can resort to virgin births both from men or women.

Well, the above depends on individual`s belief in God and His powers.

Re: # 89
``No., the believers say. God, if He wants, can resort to virgin births both from men or women. ``

For argument sake, why dint `GOD` just create his `representative on earth` from a man then? It would have been proof certain that HE existed.

Re: # 90

The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing.

The second thing is I am fairly conversant with your views on God and Religion. And I dont consider God and Religions to be a topic of debate or discussions. They are a matter of faith. Either you believe in them or dont believe in them. There cannot be anything as ``scientific believing`` or ``logical believing`` for God.

Re: # 91
``The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing. ``

LOL. Yes, that could be the only possible answer, as the miracle creators of those days could not have even imagined that one day all these would have been discovered to be possible.

Re: # 92

If you are happy with that...I am happy with that..

We humans are imaginary in our nature. Brining to lives somethings imaginary like Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters etc. can be understood. But what is the point in killing something...which according to you...does not exist at all. Let Him also live along with Godzillas, Kingkongs and Harry Potters....what is the harm??

Re: # 94

`` ... Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters ... ``

There is a difference, because there are no multi billion dollar organisations at work trying to convince young children around the world that HE, Harry Potter the Great, really does exist.

By the way, have you heard anything about the Therasa miracle?

In #87, the second line after the quotation should read `` prevents them from understanding the message of the Quran.``

#84, I will also have to repeat what I said earlier, with a reference:

Timothy Ferris states in his book, The Whole Shebang :

``...the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics treats as real only observed phenomena, raising the riddle how the EARLY universe could have evolved in the absence of observers. The riddle may be ``solved`` by invoking God as the supreme observer, who by scrutinizing all particles converts their quantum potentials into actual states (Ferris, page 308).``

#86, Muslims need to return to the Quran, centuries of corruption has been canonized under the banners of hadith and fiqh which prevents them to understand the message of the Quran. Only a total purge/removal of extra Quranic material can result in a pure return to the message of the Quran- half baked measures of picking and sifting and choosing will always mask the message, cause division and distortion.

To a lesser extent, Islam too has been victimized by the airbrushing applied to facts. Numerous Hadiths were fabricated to justify almost every conflicting point of view. Miracles that meant a lot in those days of utter ignorance, are now exposed as mere tricks to impress the general public and compete with other unbelievable and awesome magic of other faiths.

Our challenge in this age is to distinguish between reality and fabrication, between what is relevant today and what was deemed necessary in the past. Unfortunately there are too many vested interests that won`t allow an honest examination of events. Popes, Mullahs, and back to Israel Zionists have no incentive to learn the real truth. Their hard work and positions of power may not look all that solid and divinely inspired once the onion is unwrapped.

Too much of early Christian history has been lost, sanctified, erased, burned, and eradicated by the events of the 4th through 6th centuries. Constantine and his successors eliminated most competing and what they considered less than miraculous happenings in the life of Jesus. The religious literature of numerous sects, including Monophysites, Nostics, and others has been deliberately wiped out to portray the image of Jesus as recorded in the gospels that were officially sanctioned. Other gospels were kept out of the New Testament, even though they were far more relevant to Christianity than, for example, the Book of Revelations. We are left with rumors surrounding the virgin birth, presence of siblings procreated by Joseph and Mary, the special association of Mary Magdeline with Jesus, and the prevailing philosophy of Paul. The transformation of a religion born among Jews speaking Aramaic into a philosophy of Greeks, Greek-Egyptians, and then Romans, not to mention the influence of barbarians such as Goths, Vandals, Lombards, and Franks has removed many links to reality. Celebration of Christmas in December is just one of the few anamolies resulting from this manufactured state religion of the Byzantines. Even today, the officials in Rome refuse to lend a helping hand in determining the truth - consider the Dead Sea scrolls and what happened to that great find.

Re #82,

I will just have to repeat what I said earlier.

In the quantum mechanical world, the history of a particle before an observation is CREATED at the time of observation. There is no prior non-human observation.

Quantum mechanics does not necessitate the existence of God.

Re #81

I wasn`t discussing the Virgin Birth with masadi. I was just questioning his assertion that quantum mechanics has somehow established God as a fact.

Regarding the Virgin Birth I have already expressed my opinion in #42.

#79, what you say proves my point not yours. Since human consciousness post dates the objective fact of the universe, the observation of a universal nature is non-human. #80 and #81, you are being dumb again. We were discussing the act of observation in Quantum systems as related to the ``Be and it is`` part, which is mentioned in the Quran related to that context, and which you were trying to ridicule in your usual ``scud missile`` manner.

Re: # 82

nasadi,

......... like all religious zealots you are a master of obfuscation !........... so now you are saying that the phenomenon of the virgin birth is a ``non-human`` event that predates human conciousness !........ i beg to disagree, but i do believe humans were around when god had sex with mary so we should be able to find some witnesses (hopefully not four, because then poor mary would be in a lot of trouble !)

masadi,

...... can you explain what all this has to do with christ`s paternity ?....... i read your post #1 and found it to be totally irrelevant ......... call me dense, but i need an explanation, not yet another obfuscation ........

......... just because mary said ``no man has touched me`` doesn`t make it true - remember zohra fauna who had presidents and sheiks fooled with a recording of the azan coming in from between her thighs !!!! ........ and that was in the late sixties ...... now imagine how stupid people must have been two thousand years ago - even you could have sold them this wave theory nonsense ........... but i still don`t get what you are trying to say and i am a pretty smart guy (god created me in his own image)

Btw, your assertion that a particle has objective history before observation is disproved by the ``Delayed-choice double slit experiment`` . Please check it out.

Re: # 79

khurram mian,

...... i think it is a bit of a stretch to compare observing sub-atomic particles to believing in conception without sex ! .......... particles that you don`t know about are okay - when you know about them you will know about them, and in the meantime you can carry on with your life ......... but to perpetuate lies and myths and tell people that such and such thing exists, even though there is no evidence and no witnesses, is dishonest and dangerous ..........

Re #77,

If you think your view is such an established fact, why haven`t all the scientists become theists. Surely, they must have other interpretations.

#75 and #76, don`t be absurd, that ``history`` you talk about predated humanity and we are talking about a conscious act of observation not a ``supernatural``- whatever the hell you mean by that- being

Re#74,

But the history only becomes real after human observation. There is no need to invoke a supernatural being.

oh, now i get it ! .......... it is that old tree falling in the forest thingy ........

masadi mian, unless and untill a human being observes it, verifies it and writes it down in his/her little notebook it doesn`t matter if the tree fell with or without making a noise ............ so unless god, the father, has some human witnesses who can vouch that he did not have sexual relations with that woman it is hard for us to believe that god, the son, is the result of some scientific miracle ........... look, if it hadn`t been for the blue dress all those people in the blue states would still believe that old bill clinton was a saint - if poor monica had to present evidence we cannot let mary off the hook this easy ........... it is just not fair ......

#73, the universe has a history before humanity came to be- a fact. Just because you don`t know of any scientist does not mean they dont exist, check the references at http://www.rationalreality.com and linked articles.

Re #71.

What becomes real by an act of observation is not only the current state of the particle but it`s entire history. It`s meaningless to talk about the existence of the particle before it is observed by anyone.

I know of no scientist who would agree with your interpretation that `someone` was observing the particle before it was currently observed.

``I will turn away from My signs those who are proud in the earth without justice; and if they see every sign they (still) do not believe in it; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take it for a way, and if they see the way of error, they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our signs and were heedless of them.``
(Quran 7:146)

For potential states to become real, the act of observation by an observer is necessary. Who was doing the observing when the universe came to be or who observes today as potential states are transformed into universe-wide reality? Comprendey?

I cannot help you if you deny established scientific explanations my friend, neither can I help you if you deny the obvious

masadi #68,

``......that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation.``

Actually, this argument leads to the exact opposite conclusion. It is human observations that are collapsing all the wave functions. Humans have never found a wave function that was already collapsed because some other entity had observed it.

#62 hamidm2 you say, <<< ............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom >>>

Since the ``be and it is`` part, is part of the discussion regarding the virgin birth, I will entertain your gibberish here. First Hoodbuoy is totally dumb when it comes to understanding religion and science- his example of science is, ``if you jump out the window, you`ll hit the ground``- that is not science, that might be the effect of gravity. Science is first and foremost, a methodology, a way to do research to get to the truth. You can use that methodology in any field, including religion.

That said, I told you to read all the posts before you make your dumb assertions, read #1 again. The ``be and it is`` part is a scientific fact, without that this world would neither have managed to become real, not would the day to day affairs of the world manage to assume any concrete reality. As a physicist, Hoodbuoy either knows this and deliberately hides it or is being totally incompetent (which would explain the sorry state of education in Pakistan).

I wrote as part of post #1, <<< Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. >>>

Now hamidm2, give it up man. You come up with these missiles that you randomly fire at Islam in order to disprove it and your missiles fail like Saddam`s scuds, yet you keep firing those old, worn out, missiles one after the other. Even Saddam gave up his trust in scuds after a while shouldn`t you?

Re: # 68

sorry, call me dumb, but i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ..... all this collapsing wave stuff is beyond me - do you mind explaining it in plain english ?......... it seems to me that this is typical of the attempts by religious zealots to obfuscate and confuse by using highfalutin scientifc jargon to diguise the hollowness of their silly arguments ......... this my friend, is real gibberish !

...... all i am saying is that it in not possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex, even if it is with god...... and that is that .......... i will buy your argument about in-vitro fertilization if you can produce the petri dish from bethlehem ........... be and it is, indeed!

#64, hamidm2, are you totally dumb? This is the third time you have made a post that deracts from the topic. We are discussing virgin birth and you want the cure for cancer? This is totally atrocious? Do you have no sense of decency? You want to disprove Islam or religion or whatever, do it on a forum that discusses that topic~ don`t try to drag this discussion here into absurd directions.

#65, *that not than - read that Gabriel dude.

Jesus was a good man. Mo, Sr. was a good man as was Mo, Jr. It`s all the cock n bull and poppycock show n tell stories that spinmasters came up with that dilutes their message. In the old days, if you couldn`t do magic, you were not a holy man of good repute. So that`s why the Gamora Avenue advertising sheiks came up with turning water into wine, raising the dead, parting the sea, making a scherpent out of a schtick, flyin on a white horse all over creation, blowin horns till the walls came down, and havin a baby without getting banged. Either than Gabriel dude was one omnipresent comedian or they were all smoking some bad shit.

``Human egg cells can be duped with chemicals and electric shocks to begin growing like embryos, which are coveted as stem cell sources``

..... and what is more perverse is the predictable and rather annoying habit of the religiously impaired to use recent scientific knowledge to explain past ``miracles`` .......... every time you turn around somone is claiming that such and such event was ``foretold`` in the torah or the bible or the koran or some other silly text of dubious origin .......... why the heck don`t they tell us about these things before they happen and make it easier on all of us ?? .......... if god was running around with mary`s eggs in a petri dish and dupng them with chemicals to create his son, why didn`t he pass on that knowledge to us .............. why did it take centuries for us to figure out ivf techniques on our own?....... why is he so stingy with his intellectual property ?

........ if these charlatans really want to establish their credibility, they have to do better than this - tell us something we don`t already know ............. how about telling us how to cure cancer or make hydrogen fuel cells on the cheap ?............ save us thousands of man-hours and billions of dollars in research and we will convert to christianity or islam or whatever it is that you are pushing ............ it really doesn`t do us any good if tomorrow, after the chinese have found a cure for cancer, some bearded idiot comes up and says, ``the prophet said, go to china for chop suey and knowledge !``............ i don`t know about you guys, but i am gong to slap this guy silly and say, ``god told me not to suffer fools gladly !``

rsridhar #53 {``I am surprised u fell for it. My post # 31 was my way of pulling Masadi dude`s leg. His posts do not make much sense to me ``}

Rsridhar dude,
I am so confused about the pool, the voigin, the three wise guys, and the jerk that at this point I am ready to believe everything, including Mary Magdeline being Mrs. Christ. I mean with all the holiday shopping and traffic jams and no parking spaces, I just hoped that they would have put enough chlorine in the pool. Now wait till somebody posts that the tadpoles thrive in chlorine.

``When God decides upon a matter he says ``Be and it is`` !!!!!

....... according to the masadi school of thoughtlessness, god went around impregnating virgins just because he could .......... ``Be !`` he said and poor mary was seeded with his seed ........... now, most sane people will agree that the likelihood of that happening is about as remote as growing a watermelon in your stomach by swallowing a melon seed - although judging by the size of a lot of black woman one can easily be misled to believe in this urban legend ........ but i digress .......

............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom and also brainwashing innocent children into becoming suicide bombers .......... ``a flame will burn paper because god wills it``, .... oh, okay ....... ``you should blow yourself up because god wants you too``..... oh, okay ......... and boom ! god`s will is done .............

....... what kind of affliction leads grown men and women to believe in this poppycock; what kind of sickness leads to this cockamamie reasoning (or unreasoning) ............some would say it is fear - fear of the unknown and fear of death - that drives people to buy this horse hooey pedalled by unscrupulous prophets and priests .......... but i think it is plain old laziness ......... it is much easier to believe that jesus` mom was a virgin than try and take on the pope, the ayatollah and the orc lord ............

Ha Ha!
HamidM you are so funny.......
Miss M in a pool with perverts..

Hence the immaculate concepsheeyon.....

How divine..... Pun intended....

Good Lord, the Christmas ``spirit`` seems to have got into everybody a little early, ease up on that eggnog people! First you have an allegedly respectable writer whole-heartedly endorsing the one really stupid thing about the whole Jesus story. Then a couple fo Islamic ``experts`` jump in, defending virgin births quoting stories of tadpoles and sharks who manage it quite fine without any hanky-panky, thanks very much. Add to the mix the resident scientific guru of chowk who smoothly adopts a neutral position about virgin birth necessarily being miracles; the idiot Tambrahm with his harebrained ``virgin swimming in the municipal pool while wanker lets some swimmers of his own loose`` theory; and to top it all hamidm trying to get his tongue out of his cheek and into territory that sounds dangerously blasphemous.... man this is some Christmas here on chowk!

Can we at least agree that Jesus was a good man,a dn as good men go, he went? Happy birthday, big J! Will have a few drinks on you tonight!

Re: # 59 ``Can we at least agree that Jesus was a good man,a dn as good men go, he went? Happy birthday, big J! Will have a few drinks on you tonight!``

In the true 2005 Chowkie spirit, and before Big B decides enough is enough and asks Prez M to drop a Big B on Chowk, let me disagree with you and call Jesus a schizophrenic - like many other so called `Prophets` from the middle east region.

There! Now wait for the Big B!

Happy Atheist Holidays to all !

See how I avoided all the `christmas` contoversy? ;)

To all the comments and brick-a-brat, Thank you.
In short my ‘mind set’ is:
• The universe as a creation of a Supreme Being, is one big Church, hence its UNITY
• The universe operates under FIXED LAWS, very few we know and many we don’t
• The institutions of “religious church” is like a Corporation out to fleece us and its “operatives” are just CONMEN (mainly men).
• I agree that there has to be a ‘clock-maker’ to have created this clock-work in the FIRST place, therefore the ‘Be …and it was’.
• The religious brigade and particulrly Muslims, I believe are rigid in their “TRADITIONS” and dogmatic in their “RELIGION”, both contrary to the teaching of Qura’n as I understand it.

I had thanked those who pointed out the particularity of Mary’s ‘Immaculate Conception’ for I felt I should have referred to that fact for, in order to set her free of alleged sin of Christ’s Conception, the concept of ‘immaculate-ness’ was agreed to apply to both to hers and her child’s conception not to just Mary`s. Refer to early various ‘Councils’ of the Catholic Church. The controversy there is current.
I admire and respect any body including Mary and Jesus for the revolution they caused in the intellectual progress of mankind-Rashid

#56 hamidm2 you baffle me, totally. It`s amazing: First you try to disrupt the thread going on by throwing out insults against the prophet, even though that is not the discussion here and then you try to return to the discussion and throw out some nonsense which only shows that you haven`t been following the discussion at all. Check post # 1, #20

Now, after you`ve read those you are welcome to throw out other relevant questions and I will try my best to accommodate your concerns. Have a good day

masadi,

.... okay, let`s get back to the virgin birth thing ....... do muslims believe in it?..... f they do, then is their faith a hoax because we all know that it is not possible for a virgin to give birth unless she has been in a pool full of perverts ?......... you know it is all tied together - all these stories about the immaculate conception, winged creatures in caves, raising dead folks, parting the sea, and whatnot ....... if you prove one of them wrong then the whole dang house of cards comes tubling down ............. in my mind if we can prove that christ or the old fool abraham or that moses were charlatans, then we can also prove that mo of mecca was a con artist ......... it is that simple ... really ........

............ personally, i think if we could dig up jesus and match his dna with that of joseph the carpenter we would be able to solve the mystery !

#54, am I getting through to you? Hello? Anybody Home? This topic is about the virgin birth, it is not about Islam. You want to question Islam look at the Quran and it gives you many falsifiable tests, just use those and disprove it, simple as that. I do not read any story in the Quran that says anything about accepting a book merely on the basis of talking to, as you put it a, ``winged creature``.

This is neither the forum nor the topic to discuss here at thsi time, comprendey?

masadi,

.... so let`s extend this discussion....... first the man claims to be the son of god, then he walks on water, then he casts evil spirits into the poor pigs and drowns them (how cruel!), then he raises his buddy from the dead, then he dies himself and crawls out of the cave to declare three more weeks of bad weather ( i might be confusing him with the groundhog on the last one !)................ why is that any different from the man who crawls into a dark cave and claims that he talked to a winged creature, then walks out and declares war on those who don`t believe him ......... what is the difference ?

re:#36 by Salim_Chauhan
I am surprised u fell for it.
My post # 31 was my way of pulling Masadi dude`s leg. His posts do not make much sense to me (see his post 20).
Sridhar

#48 hamidm2, your logic is astounding, just because Pakistan`s laws are based on a distortion of Islam, you attack the prophet?? I see no connection here. This post is about the virgin birth, so we discuss that, you want to divert that into Ad Hominem arguments against the prophet~ that merely reveals your stupidity.

Your ignorant rants are answered in this article http://www.selvesandothers.org/article12501.html, read it, digest it and keep your baseless accusitions and libel under control. Makes you look like a total idiot.

Re: # 51

masadi,

``Makes you look like a total idiot``...... why ??.... what`s th differsnce between somone claiming that his mother was a virgin and a man who claims that he talked to god in a drak cave? .... as far as i am concerned they are equally damaging lies !

re: virgin births etc etc
I realize this is not the right forum for serious discussions on spiritual matters. Never has been. So, i will spare myself future embarassments.
Sridhar

re:#36 by Salim_Chauhan
What are u disputing? ART is a reality dude. Virgin women can get impregnated with donor sperms. No woman needs to get married if baby is all she wants.
(Virgin swimming in pool getting impregnated by jerk jerking off nearby. That does it.)
You got it. That would be men like Masadi.
(#38 by parthaab on December 24, 2005 10:47am PT
Re: # 32

A very interesting tale - this time of a Hindu fanatic.)
Tale, as told by Yogananda. Now u will ask me who that dude was. If u are spiritually retarded, i can`t help you.
Sridhar

#46, I am not Commander in Chief of Pakistan, if I were I`d repeal not only the blasphemy /hudood laws but bring about several other changes as well

Re: # 47

good .... so i guess it is okay with you if i say that mo of mecca was a fraud and an imposter ? (ever wonder about why he didn`t mess around with other women untill khadija was dead ????)

.... look, i have no problem with people believing in hobgoblins and banging their head against the floor five times a day as long as they don`t impose their silliness on me ...... what blows my mind is that three billion people believe that a woman can get pregnant without having sex ! ....... that, in itself, wouldn`t be so bad if they also didn`t believe that those who didn`t believe it were damned to burn in hell ! .......... if it weren`t for the absolutisim, religion would be hilarious ...............

Re: # 45

masadi,

thanks .... so i take it you are for repealing the blasphemy and hudood laws in pakistan ?

#44, Don`t accuse me of supporting killing, I have never and will never support religiously inspired violence. The Quran is totally against that. You are lying and this amounts to libel. Jesus was as much a prophet of Islam as the prophet Muhammad.

....... talking about jesus like this on the eve of his birth is blasphemy .... or is it ?........ isn`t it amazing how people like masadi who are willing to kill people for doubting mo of mecca are okay with discussing His paternity...........

#39, not so, that is your distorted understanding of the Quranic term ``aya`` or sign. The verses of the Quran are called aya also does not mean they are unscientific or unreasonable or humanity cannot arrive at the same truth through different process. For something to be a sign it does have to be impossible, day and night are defined by the same word aya in the Quran (17:12), and day and night follows natural processes; you are generalizing based on your ``narrow`` understanding of miracle.

So, what is a miracle?

If an event can be explained by natural causes does it cease to be a miracle? This would rule out all miracles. Which is a perfectly consistent point of view to hold.

On the other hand, a miracle can be thought of as a perfectly natural event that, by its special context, inspires in us a profound sense of wonder and enables us to glimpse the divine dimension of existence.

A miracle is not to be confused with a `miracle story`. A miracle story is a narrative in which the sense of wonder originally experienced (e.g. in the presence of Jesus) is communicated through symbols (e.g. virgin birth, resurrection etc.). Such stories are not to be taken literally.

Hmmm, # 40 isn`t too respectful of the fellow, who, after all, wasn`t of a bad sort. Chowk staff, could you please delete that post? :(

Gill sahib # 39 has a point. Mr. Jesus must have been a freak of nature - product of a scientifically feasible but uncommon occurrence.

Along the lines of a donkey blessed with two heads, a child born unencumbered with a brain, or a toad spawned by a virgin froggess (an european female frog).

Biological oddities, all.

If `virgin birth` can be explained scientifically, all the magic goes out of it. It ceases to be a divine miracle. And virgin birth was supposed to be a miracle.
One can not have it both ways. If virgin birth was a divine miracle as is traditionally believed then science or no science, it should remain unique and unparalleled. If virgin birth can occur without any divine intervention then it ceases to be a miracle.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Mohammad Gill

......... i can imagine all those warning signs on the beach and at swimming pools ! ........ and to think people were scared to go into the water after seeing Shark - wait till they get a load of the nasty little tadpoles !

rsridhar #31 {``Let us say a virgin woman is swimming in a pool (where men and women are both allowed, so we are talking about a more liberal society like the West), a man also swimming nearby, ejaculates. You can finish the rest of the story in your mind, can`t u? ``}

Virgin swimming in pool getting impregnated by jerk jerking off nearby. That does it. I am sorry, I questioned the frickin cock n bull story in the first place. Considering Mr. Rsridhar`s logical explanation of possibilities, I am inclined to believe the original story of angelic visit, immaculate conception, and virgin birth. Gimme a break.

re: Masadi`s post
(Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. )
This is what i call ``intellecutal masturbation``.
Not even the guy who wrote it would know what he/she is talking about.
Sridhar

re: Fall of man
I think the church has wrongly accused Eve of the cause of man`s fall. It was not so. Both are to be blamed!
Sridhar

re: garden of Eden and fall of man: a deeper spiritual meaning
Most stories from bible and other scriptures, epics have a deeper spiritual meaning that has been lost to mankind. Eastern sages and seers have always believed that the garden of Eden that Bible talks about is in reality ``the inner spiritual state`` of Man (i include both men and women here). There was a time (depicted in Hindu Scriptures as ``Satyuga`` or the times when spirituality and virtues prevailed) when Man was deeply spiritual and was in constant ``inner communion`` with God. Adam and Eve in Bible are symbolic of that state. Eastern sages would call that a state of ``sat-chit-Ananda`` or the ever present, conscious, bliss. In that state, both man and woman lived in bliss and unaware of their physical bodies and in deep communion with God. In this state, there is no shame, no guilt, no ego. Only bliss! (To this day in India, many Naga Sadhus go around completely naked, to the utter emb