The Virgin Birth

The article is totally off the mark and tries to fit and stretch the Quran based upon whim and predetermined conclusions. Why do I say that?

He says that the aya in Sura Yasin talking about pairs of everything including humans means the Jesus had a father. Not so, the verse is merely talking about gender, male and female and not about Jesus` father- that interpretation involved deception and not ``thinking``. Or the claim that the Quran gives equal status to the messengers and similar message means that their biographies were the same- Not so, illogical conclusions.

Second, ``virign birth`` is not contrary to natural laws, it is not impossible, though it is unusual. Here is a news report that you all might want to read (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/05/tech/main552408.shtml)

``Human egg cells can be duped with chemicals and electric shocks to begin growing like embryos, which are coveted as stem cell sources``

The Quran is very clear that Jesus was born without the intervention of a male, ``...how can I have a son when no man has touched me.`` is very CLEAR. Using sense in reading the Quran does NOT mean you distort it by adding things according to your morality or sense of right and wrong.

When God decides upon a matter he says ``Be and it is``- does that sound like unscientific to you or going against natural law? Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation.

The author tries to explain away the ``ibn Maryam`` part, which is an exception by the way, lineage is not traced by mother in that culture or in the Quran, other than for Jesus, also, there is more circumstantial evidence that Mary had no spouse, and that is found in Quran 66:10-12
[66.10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut:....[66.11] And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon...:
[66.12] And Marium, the daughter of Imran,...``

Now, what is significant in these is that while giving examples of women, they are described in relation to thier husbands, ``wife of (so and so)``, however when it comes to Maryam, she is described not as wife of someone but as ``daughter of``- which is a significant exception- proving once again that she was not married.

Masadi, I agree.

The ideas are far fetched.... and relate Jewish Essene practices to the Quran. It is incoherent, trying to sound intelligent by mumbojumbling many different ideas together.

What are u trying to say, Dear Writer!

Catholic Doctrine that preserved the Bible for the THUMPERS for 1500 years before the Sale of Indulgences believes that the immaculate conception in actuality refers not to the virignal conception of the lord , Baby Jesus rather than the immaculate conception and birth of the vessel that was to concieve and give blood and sustenance to the divine blessed child of the Madonna.


Through a similar logic, You O dear writer, make a failed attempt at relating Jewish Essene Sect theosophy to Islamic practice. Through your flawed logic, Isa Ibn Maryam could have foretold the coming of a Prophet amongst the Arabs and named him Muhammad Ibn Amna..


THat would be standard Semitic practice.....


`` WHAT IS THIS TOTAL BS``

Read below, uff toba....

``Apart from the fact that in those early days, the father/mother was often known by the fame of the son/daughter as in abu/umm so and so. The modern example, of being known by other than the father could be given as Prince Charles—who? one might ask! ‘The son of Queen Elizabeth II’ or ‘Asif Zardary-- who?-The husband of Benazir Bhutto’, fits comfortably for Isa as the son of Maryam, rather than Yusuf/ Joseph the carpenter. ``

Rashid Samnakay Sahab,

Great to finally see a person of your stature and background contributing an article here.
Those who subscribe to the Tolu-e-Islam Magazine are big fans of yours. Hope you continue to contribute excellent articles such as these in the future.

On the topic of the article... it is a great tragedy that all Muslim sects, including the supposedly ``progressive`` Ahmadiyya sect, continue to ascribe to a non-scientific belief such as the virgin birth. Infact the Ahmadiya sect goes to any length to prove ``scientific evidence`` for virgin birth.

Personally I think it is rooted in the wrong turn Muslims took in 12th century under Imam Ghazali.

Dear madasi
You are right when you say that a cell can be stimulated by chemicals and electrical current but the problem lies in the fact that even if that possible ,IT WOULD GIVE RISE TO ONLY FEMALE, where do you get the male chromosome? So most probably jesus was a female

Dear madasi
You are right when you say that a cell can be stimulated by chemicals and electrical current but the problem lies in the fact that even if that possible ,IT WOULD GIVE RISE TO ONLY FEMALE, where do you get the male chromosome? So most probably jesus was a female

The immaculate conception does not refer to the birth of Christ, but to the belief that his mother, Mary, was conceived without any trace of original sin.

If the author is unable to distinguish beween the concept of ``virgin birth`` and that of the Immaculate Conception`` how much credence can we put on the rest of the article?

Re: # 5

Jessus was a woman masquerading as a Man? .... holy molly!!!

Re: # 6

So Mary was conceived without sex....... Who was Mary`s mother?

No. Mary was not conceived without sex. It is another common error to conflate original sin with sex.

And, it is commonly thought that Mary`s mother was Saint Ann.

why it is so difficult for everyone to accept that Jesus was born out of an act of cohabition between Mary and Joseph, which is quite usual for young people around, except at that time they didnt have any emergency contraceptive pills ;) ? and why do you people drag hebrew & arabic sentences dictated by schizophrenic people into something, whose happening and not happening are of no use to you? for me ... when someone would produce one i`ll believe it ... even though that would not do me any good ... but till then ... you know what I mean ;)

The message that Jesus imparted was that of compassion and forgiveness, and not for people to worry about 2000 years after his death whether he was a virgin. There is more to Jesus than his sex life.

This paragraph betrays the research capability of the witer,

``Apart from the fact that in those early days, the father/mother was often known by the fame of the son/daughter as in abu/umm so and so. The modern example, of being known by other than the father could be given as Prince Charles—who? one might ask! ‘The son of Queen Elizabeth II’ or ‘Asif Zardary-- who?-The husband of Benazir Bhutto’, fits comfortably for Isa as the son of Maryam, rather than Yusuf/ Joseph the carpenter``.

Lets see the concordance. Both Islam and Chritianity agree on the visitation of the angel and the virgin birth. In Islam there is much more reverance for Our Lady, Maryam Siddiqa than in many existing Christian splinter churches. Is it not marvelous to agree on something.
Merry Christmas
ijaz

Mantolives:

You have posted at # 3 in good faith. However, I disagree with you from another perspective.

Recently, Muslims have generally begun to challenge the Quranic verses, Ahadith and the religious interpretations thereof by our Grand Imams.

Imam Ghazali and the likes of him were knowledge specialist just like you are on Jinnah (or perhaps on history). Since I, being a Change Management person, would not like to challenge you on your area of specialization, I would expect Muslims having no specialization in religious matters not to challenge Imams. That area belongs to people who are specializing in Islamic or comparative religion, for example, or even more narrowly focusing on that very topic.

Although admittedly you are very knowledgable person, there is a tendency amongst every Tom, Dick and Harry Muslim these days to begin challenging issues relating to faith and interpretation of Scriptures and Ahadith.

Re: # 9

so what is original sin? 2000 years gone - and we still have confusions on the basics :))) ?

Rashid, Ijaz and Manto:

It is the initial verses in the Chapter of Maryam that best describe the Virgin Birth. These verses when recited by Jaffar Tayyar in front of King Najashi of Habasah, bailed the Muslim refugees out in the land of Christians.

There are 2 alternatives to the literal acceptance of the Virgin Birth story.

One is to argue that Quran does not support it altogether. The other is to accept that this story is present in the Quran but is not to be taken literally. The author makes the first argument in a weak and contradictory manner. I think the second argument is the stronger one.

Btw, what does this mean?
``Generally for the Muslims, the Immaculate Conception of his mother and his own is considered sacrosanct``
The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a strictly Catholic doctrine and is not to be found among Muslims.

Nuswanji #6

{{If the author is unable to distinguish beween the concept of ``virgin birth`` and that of the Immaculate Conception`` how much credence can we put on the rest of the article?}}

I looked for that the moment I saw the article’s title, since conflating the Virgin Birth of Christ with the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin is a very common confusion among those who are ignorant of some Christian (specifically Roman Catholic) doctrine.

However the author does write, in his eighth paragraph:

{{Generally for the Muslims, the Immaculate Conception of his mother and his own is considered sacrosanct}}

So it’s possible to stretch things and speculate that the author has simply chosen his words poorly. He may not be as ignorant as he seems at first glance.

Alephnull #18,

Actually, this article was published earlier at naseeb.com with the title ``Immaculate Conception``. The author`s error was pointed out to him by several interactors, whom he thanked for the correction. Apparently, he tried to correct his mistake in this version but did a shoddy job of the editing.

#3 Mantolives, it is total ignorance when you say that virgin birth is ``unscientific``- not only do natural cases in humans exist and have been verified by scientists, the whole embryo can be manufactured outside the lab and implanted into a virgin. Now, is your ``god`` even less powerful than the lab scientists? Further this article badly mutilates the Quran, under cover of thinking, it amounts to total distortion and force fitting, something that gives those who are genuinely trying to understand Islam via the Quran alone a bad name. The Mullah has his ahistorical hadith, our author here brings in his own ``hadith`` by quoting theologians and mutilating the Quran based on whims

#4, Parthenogenesis does not NECESSARILY produce females, here is a reference

Quote<<
Many primitive peoples believe that there are two methods of human reproduction: the ordinary animal one and a higher one rarely employed -- virgin birth [4]. One belief is that the rays of the sun can fertilize women. In this regard, <>it is interesting that ultraviolet rays can cause parthenogenesis in unfertilized eggs of sea-urchins. It is also believed that moon rays, wind, rain, and certain types of food can cause impregnation. In the 19th century the Trobriand Islanders of the western Pacific insisted that cases of virgin birth still occurred among them.

Further evidence for the possibility of human parthenogenesis comes from the mysterious phenomenon of dermoid cysts [5]. These are malformed embryonic growths or tumour-like formations occasionally found in various parts of the body, including womb, ovaries, and scrotum. They often contain bones, hair, teeth, flesh, tissue, glands, portions of the scalp, face, eyes, ribs, vertebral column, and umbilical cord. They are found in males as well as females, both young and old, including virgins. They appear to be undeveloped embryos and fetuses in various stages of growth. Loeb and several other researchers argued that dermoid cysts may be related to the parthenogenetic tendency of the mammalian egg, catalyzed perhaps by an increase in blood alkalinity. However, the body`s parthenogenetic capacity is now very feeble and the generative centres lack the power to carry the reproduction process through to its proper conclusion.

It is possible that some cases of human parthenogenesis involve self-fertilization rather than true virgin birth, as there are cases of sperm being produced in women by vestigial, usually nonfunctional, male reproductive glands known as the epoöphoron (parovarium) and paroöphoron, which correspond to the seminiferous tubules of the testicles in males. In some instances, the magnetic influence and nervous excitement occasioned by attempted sexual intercourse may rouse into activity the latent, rudimentary male sex glands so that they secrete semen, resulting in impregnation [6].

(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex2.htm)

>>>

Manto (#3),

A few thoughts on virgin birth issue …

I’d characterize views of Ahmadi-Muslims with somewhat different emphasis than you did. My understanding is that Ahmadis are not trying to prove that Jesus’ birth was the result of parthenogenesis. Rather, parthenogenesis is a mechanism that possibly explains virgin birth of Jesus.

Scientific Understanding …

Human understanding of universe continues to get refined with the passage of time. While basic understanding got established somewhat quickly, and fairly accurately, precise boundaries of human knowledge continue to be somewhat blur, especially when dealing with intricate details. With better understanding, these boundaries continue to get better defined.

An example …

Through experience, humans quickly understood the effects of physical force on physical mass. These principles were later expressed better, more accurately, in laws of classical mechanics. F=ma was the result. It was later learnt that at higher velocities, the mass of a body changes by an extremely tiny amount. Therefore, F~ma, i.e., ”F” is approximately equal to “ma”. You get the point.

Science on Virgin Birth

Similarly, scientific knowledge regarding conception also has evolved. While basics largely hold true, there is a tiny bit of deviation from what was originally understood. Consider the following trend … which sort of maps out evolution of scientific understanding regarding conception.

- Ages ago, virgin birth could not be explained at all.
- Virgin birth was then found to exist in some fish and lizards under certain climatic conditions.
- Embryos of mice and rabbits were partially developed parthenogenetically in labs.
- We then learnt that human embryos, when aided by some calcium compounds, may be activated by parthenogenesis.
- Then we discovered the case of a three-year-old boy whose skin and blood seemed to have been created by parthenogenesis.
- Some scientists accept that there is a possibility (extremely, extremely remote, though) of virgin birth of a human female, although no mechanism can explain a male birth.

All this in the past 100-or-so years. Not too shabby, in my view.

Is it possible that science may yet discover a special case of parthenogenesis which may result in birth of a male? Reviewing the evolution of human understanding of virgin birth, I would not rule out such a possibility.

I am not going to risk being stoned by both Christians and Muslims so I will buy the cock `n bull story about the virgin birth. What`s wrong with Mary having Jesus the old-fashioned way? Why can`t we accept normal behavior instead of having to preach a far-fetched tale of gods interfering with human procreation to inject their own seed into the boiling pot? Sure sounds like Greek and Roman mythology to me. The amazing thing is the when we Muslim copy something, we are even more honest than the ones we imitate. That`s what I call plagiarism with a conscience. BTW, is it true that Mary and Joseph had other children - Jesus even had a normal brother. If so, what happened? Mary lost the magic potion?

ALL religions have such stories.....It is cheap and petty to rumage thru such stories.....Instead,

pay attention to Jesus` message, and live by it if you can.......


`pehlan apni peeri thullay sota phero`...............

Chrstns look foolish trying to defend this nonsense, and others look cheap bringing it up..........

I have often wondered about the morality, rather rationality, of telling heathens that they need to accept the one true God and believe in the holy scriptures of the monothestic faiths. Imagine, trying to persuade a Hindu to leave his religion of gods and goddesses, gods taking part in wars, sex and rape among gods, human sacrifices, old legends lost in time and exaggeration. Leave all that so he can believe in:

A God who impregnates a virgin without exerting Himself.
A God who expels two naked people from a garden because they ate either an apple, or some wheat and all because a snake told them to do it.
Horrific civil war in heaven pitting angel against angel
Mankind propagating itself by practicing incest
God telling Joshua to blow the trumpet until the walls of Jericho come down so that he can slaughter every living man, woman, and child
God turning people into pillars of salt for watching the destrcution of whole cities for homosexual behavior
God flooding the whole world and telling the inventor of booze to save a pair of everything.
God choosing His people over others
God splitting the Red Sea so his favorite people could cross in safety and their persecutors drown when the seas come together again.
Man living in fish without airconditioning or cable TV

#22, just because virgin births are uncommon and extremely rare, that does not make them a ``cock `n bull story``- the possibility can be reproduced in a scientific lab, how God made it happen in Mary, and why he chose to make it a sign is his business, what I am concerned with is the fact that there is nothing unscientific in the concept.

i heard the story from a guy who claimed that immaculate conception/virgin birth are real because if they were not, the contemperories of jesus would have been contemptories...the premise is that no one could have sold such a story if it were not true.

hmm

but i agree, its the messsage of luv and peace that is important and not who planted the seed.

.......... and i have a bridge in brooklyn that i would like to sell to you !!! ............ jezsus f. christ - how stupid can we get ! ....... next thing you know, somone will be telling us that a man lived inside a fish for six months and paris hilton is a virgin !

Mohar11...

Change management eh... nice.

So following that theory to its logical conclusion, do you feel then it is fair to ask you to not challenge my view of history?

No ... it won`t be fair... nor would I get the chance to investigate/elaborate/further my point of view.

Re. #15 Original sin is usually thought of as the propensity to evil that exists within all humans and is thought to be the consequence of the act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Personally I think that the curiosity that prompted Eve to disobey is the root of al science, so perversely, religion(s) was quite right in identifying curiosity, and the refusal to obey dictats, as the main obstacle to its hegemony.

Perhaps at this time we should concentrate on the message of love and goodwill rather than more obscure facets of religion; although most religious people will insist that without the ``miracles`` of virgin birth and the resurrection Christ`s message was no more worthy of veneration than that of many other wise men.

Re. #15 Original sin is usually thought of as the propensity to evil that exists within all humans and is thought to be the consequence of the act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Personally I think that the curiosity that prompted Eve to disobey is the root of al science, so perversely, religion(s) was quite right in identifying curiosity, and the refusal to obey dictats, as the main obstacle to its hegemony.

Perhaps at this time we should concentrate on the message of love and goodwill rather than more obscure facets of religion; although most religious people will insist that without the ``miracles`` of virgin birth and the resurrection Christ`s message was no more worthy of veneration than that of many other wise men.

re:#25 by masadi
If you stretch your imagination a little, virgin birth can happen. Let us say a virgin woman is swimming in a pool (where men and women are both allowed, so we are talking about a more liberal society like the West), a man also swimming nearby, ejaculates. You can finish the rest of the story in your mind, can`t u?
Now, fertilisation of ovum by a sperm is essential to have a zygote, that goes on to form a fetus and baby. In the ancient times, sexual intercourse was the only way. Now-a-days, ART (Artificial Reproductive Technology) has ensured that even a virgin can have a baby with donor sperms!
Sridhar

re: garden of Eden and fall of man: a deeper spiritual meaning
Most stories from bible and other scriptures, epics have a deeper spiritual meaning that has been lost to mankind. Eastern sages and seers have always believed that the garden of Eden that Bible talks about is in reality ``the inner spiritual state`` of Man (i include both men and women here). There was a time (depicted in Hindu Scriptures as ``Satyuga`` or the times when spirituality and virtues prevailed) when Man was deeply spiritual and was in constant ``inner communion`` with God. Adam and Eve in Bible are symbolic of that state. Eastern sages would call that a state of ``sat-chit-Ananda`` or the ever present, conscious, bliss. In that state, both man and woman lived in bliss and unaware of their physical bodies and in deep communion with God. In this state, there is no shame, no guilt, no ego. Only bliss! (To this day in India, many Naga Sadhus go around completely naked, to the utter embarassment of people. they are not ashamed of their nakedness while the rest are!).
So, if u are to believe the ancient wisdom of the sages and seers (as i do), then there was sucha time in remote past when Man lived in the Garden of Eden.
What happened then?
As per the bible, God warns Man not to partake of the apple from the Tree but enjoy everything else. This too has a deeper inner meaning. According to the eastern sages, the tree is nothing but the inverted spine of man,with spinal cord as the trunk, nerves as the branches. The apple at the center then refers to the sexual organs.
God was warning man not to indulge in sex! Serpent (symbolic of man`s desires) tempts him and he breaks God`s commandment and indulges in sex. This refers to the times that followed the ``satyuga`` when man lost spirituality slowly and became more mateiralistic, indulging in fulfilment of ``baser desires`` and slowly forgetting God. This is the state man lives in today.
When man in the Garden of Eden succumbed to the temptation and indulged in sex with Eve, he immediately fell from his exalted status. This is the real meaning of Fall of Man. From a divine being, he became a beast. Men during the ``satyuga`` did indugle in sex but only for procreation. Later, sex became a thing for recreation, and procreation is now the result.
When Man fell from God`s grace, God soon found out. Bible says God found out when Man was ashamed of his own nakedness! God knows everything, so He does not have to infer from Man`s nakedness that he has fallen. This again is symbolic. Once man had sex, he was no more in the state of ``inner communion``. He was no more in that state of bliss where he was unaware of his body, and had no guilt or shame. Soon after his fall, he became acutely aware of his own physical body and for the first time, of his own nakedness. This gave rise to shame, an ego-based feeling that did not exist before. God knew then man has broken His commandment.
Patanjali`s Yogasutra says Man can reclaim the Garden of Eden through a scientific yoga technique (called Ashtanga yoga by him but called ``kriya yoga`` in modern times) that was well known to ancient sages and yogis but got lost in the tide ot times. It is slowly resurfacing today. I shall talk more about it in my future posts.
Sridhar

re: Fall of man
I think the church has wrongly accused Eve of the cause of man`s fall. It was not so. Both are to be blamed!
Sridhar

re: Masadi`s post
(Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. )
This is what i call ``intellecutal masturbation``.
Not even the guy who wrote it would know what he/she is talking about.
Sridhar

Re: # 28 YLH

what are you talking about?

rsridhar #31 {``Let us say a virgin woman is swimming in a pool (where men and women are both allowed, so we are talking about a more liberal society like the West), a man also swimming nearby, ejaculates. You can finish the rest of the story in your mind, can`t u? ``}

Virgin swimming in pool getting impregnated by jerk jerking off nearby. That does it. I am sorry, I questioned the frickin cock n bull story in the first place. Considering Mr. Rsridhar`s logical explanation of possibilities, I am inclined to believe the original story of angelic visit, immaculate conception, and virgin birth. Gimme a break.

......... i can imagine all those warning signs on the beach and at swimming pools ! ........ and to think people were scared to go into the water after seeing Shark - wait till they get a load of the nasty little tadpoles !

Re: # 32

A very interesting tale - this time of a Hindu fanatic.

If `virgin birth` can be explained scientifically, all the magic goes out of it. It ceases to be a divine miracle. And virgin birth was supposed to be a miracle.
One can not have it both ways. If virgin birth was a divine miracle as is traditionally believed then science or no science, it should remain unique and unparalleled. If virgin birth can occur without any divine intervention then it ceases to be a miracle.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Mohammad Gill

Gill sahib # 39 has a point. Mr. Jesus must have been a freak of nature - product of a scientifically feasible but uncommon occurrence.

Along the lines of a donkey blessed with two heads, a child born unencumbered with a brain, or a toad spawned by a virgin froggess (an european female frog).

Biological oddities, all.

Hmmm, # 40 isn`t too respectful of the fellow, who, after all, wasn`t of a bad sort. Chowk staff, could you please delete that post? :(

So, what is a miracle?

If an event can be explained by natural causes does it cease to be a miracle? This would rule out all miracles. Which is a perfectly consistent point of view to hold.

On the other hand, a miracle can be thought of as a perfectly natural event that, by its special context, inspires in us a profound sense of wonder and enables us to glimpse the divine dimension of existence.

A miracle is not to be confused with a `miracle story`. A miracle story is a narrative in which the sense of wonder originally experienced (e.g. in the presence of Jesus) is communicated through symbols (e.g. virgin birth, resurrection etc.). Such stories are not to be taken literally.

#39, not so, that is your distorted understanding of the Quranic term ``aya`` or sign. The verses of the Quran are called aya also does not mean they are unscientific or unreasonable or humanity cannot arrive at the same truth through different process. For something to be a sign it does have to be impossible, day and night are defined by the same word aya in the Quran (17:12), and day and night follows natural processes; you are generalizing based on your ``narrow`` understanding of miracle.

....... talking about jesus like this on the eve of his birth is blasphemy .... or is it ?........ isn`t it amazing how people like masadi who are willing to kill people for doubting mo of mecca are okay with discussing His paternity...........

#44, Don`t accuse me of supporting killing, I have never and will never support religiously inspired violence. The Quran is totally against that. You are lying and this amounts to libel. Jesus was as much a prophet of Islam as the prophet Muhammad.

Re: # 45

masadi,

thanks .... so i take it you are for repealing the blasphemy and hudood laws in pakistan ?

#46, I am not Commander in Chief of Pakistan, if I were I`d repeal not only the blasphemy /hudood laws but bring about several other changes as well

Re: # 47

good .... so i guess it is okay with you if i say that mo of mecca was a fraud and an imposter ? (ever wonder about why he didn`t mess around with other women untill khadija was dead ????)

.... look, i have no problem with people believing in hobgoblins and banging their head against the floor five times a day as long as they don`t impose their silliness on me ...... what blows my mind is that three billion people believe that a woman can get pregnant without having sex ! ....... that, in itself, wouldn`t be so bad if they also didn`t believe that those who didn`t believe it were damned to burn in hell ! .......... if it weren`t for the absolutisim, religion would be hilarious ...............

re:#36 by Salim_Chauhan
What are u disputing? ART is a reality dude. Virgin women can get impregnated with donor sperms. No woman needs to get married if baby is all she wants.
(Virgin swimming in pool getting impregnated by jerk jerking off nearby. That does it.)
You got it. That would be men like Masadi.
(#38 by parthaab on December 24, 2005 10:47am PT
Re: # 32

A very interesting tale - this time of a Hindu fanatic.)
Tale, as told by Yogananda. Now u will ask me who that dude was. If u are spiritually retarded, i can`t help you.
Sridhar

re: virgin births etc etc
I realize this is not the right forum for serious discussions on spiritual matters. Never has been. So, i will spare myself future embarassments.
Sridhar

#48 hamidm2, your logic is astounding, just because Pakistan`s laws are based on a distortion of Islam, you attack the prophet?? I see no connection here. This post is about the virgin birth, so we discuss that, you want to divert that into Ad Hominem arguments against the prophet~ that merely reveals your stupidity.

Your ignorant rants are answered in this article http://www.selvesandothers.org/article12501.html, read it, digest it and keep your baseless accusitions and libel under control. Makes you look like a total idiot.

Re: # 51

masadi,

``Makes you look like a total idiot``...... why ??.... what`s th differsnce between somone claiming that his mother was a virgin and a man who claims that he talked to god in a drak cave? .... as far as i am concerned they are equally damaging lies !

re:#36 by Salim_Chauhan
I am surprised u fell for it.
My post # 31 was my way of pulling Masadi dude`s leg. His posts do not make much sense to me (see his post 20).
Sridhar

masadi,

.... so let`s extend this discussion....... first the man claims to be the son of god, then he walks on water, then he casts evil spirits into the poor pigs and drowns them (how cruel!), then he raises his buddy from the dead, then he dies himself and crawls out of the cave to declare three more weeks of bad weather ( i might be confusing him with the groundhog on the last one !)................ why is that any different from the man who crawls into a dark cave and claims that he talked to a winged creature, then walks out and declares war on those who don`t believe him ......... what is the difference ?

#54, am I getting through to you? Hello? Anybody Home? This topic is about the virgin birth, it is not about Islam. You want to question Islam look at the Quran and it gives you many falsifiable tests, just use those and disprove it, simple as that. I do not read any story in the Quran that says anything about accepting a book merely on the basis of talking to, as you put it a, ``winged creature``.

This is neither the forum nor the topic to discuss here at thsi time, comprendey?

masadi,

.... okay, let`s get back to the virgin birth thing ....... do muslims believe in it?..... f they do, then is their faith a hoax because we all know that it is not possible for a virgin to give birth unless she has been in a pool full of perverts ?......... you know it is all tied together - all these stories about the immaculate conception, winged creatures in caves, raising dead folks, parting the sea, and whatnot ....... if you prove one of them wrong then the whole dang house of cards comes tubling down ............. in my mind if we can prove that christ or the old fool abraham or that moses were charlatans, then we can also prove that mo of mecca was a con artist ......... it is that simple ... really ........

............ personally, i think if we could dig up jesus and match his dna with that of joseph the carpenter we would be able to solve the mystery !

#56 hamidm2 you baffle me, totally. It`s amazing: First you try to disrupt the thread going on by throwing out insults against the prophet, even though that is not the discussion here and then you try to return to the discussion and throw out some nonsense which only shows that you haven`t been following the discussion at all. Check post # 1, #20

Now, after you`ve read those you are welcome to throw out other relevant questions and I will try my best to accommodate your concerns. Have a good day

To all the comments and brick-a-brat, Thank you.
In short my ‘mind set’ is:
• The universe as a creation of a Supreme Being, is one big Church, hence its UNITY
• The universe operates under FIXED LAWS, very few we know and many we don’t
• The institutions of “religious church” is like a Corporation out to fleece us and its “operatives” are just CONMEN (mainly men).
• I agree that there has to be a ‘clock-maker’ to have created this clock-work in the FIRST place, therefore the ‘Be …and it was’.
• The religious brigade and particulrly Muslims, I believe are rigid in their “TRADITIONS” and dogmatic in their “RELIGION”, both contrary to the teaching of Qura’n as I understand it.

I had thanked those who pointed out the particularity of Mary’s ‘Immaculate Conception’ for I felt I should have referred to that fact for, in order to set her free of alleged sin of Christ’s Conception, the concept of ‘immaculate-ness’ was agreed to apply to both to hers and her child’s conception not to just Mary`s. Refer to early various ‘Councils’ of the Catholic Church. The controversy there is current.
I admire and respect any body including Mary and Jesus for the revolution they caused in the intellectual progress of mankind-Rashid

Good Lord, the Christmas ``spirit`` seems to have got into everybody a little early, ease up on that eggnog people! First you have an allegedly respectable writer whole-heartedly endorsing the one really stupid thing about the whole Jesus story. Then a couple fo Islamic ``experts`` jump in, defending virgin births quoting stories of tadpoles and sharks who manage it quite fine without any hanky-panky, thanks very much. Add to the mix the resident scientific guru of chowk who smoothly adopts a neutral position about virgin birth necessarily being miracles; the idiot Tambrahm with his harebrained ``virgin swimming in the municipal pool while wanker lets some swimmers of his own loose`` theory; and to top it all hamidm trying to get his tongue out of his cheek and into territory that sounds dangerously blasphemous.... man this is some Christmas here on chowk!

Can we at least agree that Jesus was a good man,a dn as good men go, he went? Happy birthday, big J! Will have a few drinks on you tonight!

Ha Ha!
HamidM you are so funny.......
Miss M in a pool with perverts..

Hence the immaculate concepsheeyon.....

How divine..... Pun intended....

Re: # 59 ``Can we at least agree that Jesus was a good man,a dn as good men go, he went? Happy birthday, big J! Will have a few drinks on you tonight!``

In the true 2005 Chowkie spirit, and before Big B decides enough is enough and asks Prez M to drop a Big B on Chowk, let me disagree with you and call Jesus a schizophrenic - like many other so called `Prophets` from the middle east region.

There! Now wait for the Big B!

Happy Atheist Holidays to all !

See how I avoided all the `christmas` contoversy? ;)

``When God decides upon a matter he says ``Be and it is`` !!!!!

....... according to the masadi school of thoughtlessness, god went around impregnating virgins just because he could .......... ``Be !`` he said and poor mary was seeded with his seed ........... now, most sane people will agree that the likelihood of that happening is about as remote as growing a watermelon in your stomach by swallowing a melon seed - although judging by the size of a lot of black woman one can easily be misled to believe in this urban legend ........ but i digress .......

............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom and also brainwashing innocent children into becoming suicide bombers .......... ``a flame will burn paper because god wills it``, .... oh, okay ....... ``you should blow yourself up because god wants you too``..... oh, okay ......... and boom ! god`s will is done .............

....... what kind of affliction leads grown men and women to believe in this poppycock; what kind of sickness leads to this cockamamie reasoning (or unreasoning) ............some would say it is fear - fear of the unknown and fear of death - that drives people to buy this horse hooey pedalled by unscrupulous prophets and priests .......... but i think it is plain old laziness ......... it is much easier to believe that jesus` mom was a virgin than try and take on the pope, the ayatollah and the orc lord ............

rsridhar #53 {``I am surprised u fell for it. My post # 31 was my way of pulling Masadi dude`s leg. His posts do not make much sense to me ``}

Rsridhar dude,
I am so confused about the pool, the voigin, the three wise guys, and the jerk that at this point I am ready to believe everything, including Mary Magdeline being Mrs. Christ. I mean with all the holiday shopping and traffic jams and no parking spaces, I just hoped that they would have put enough chlorine in the pool. Now wait till somebody posts that the tadpoles thrive in chlorine.

``Human egg cells can be duped with chemicals and electric shocks to begin growing like embryos, which are coveted as stem cell sources``

..... and what is more perverse is the predictable and rather annoying habit of the religiously impaired to use recent scientific knowledge to explain past ``miracles`` .......... every time you turn around somone is claiming that such and such event was ``foretold`` in the torah or the bible or the koran or some other silly text of dubious origin .......... why the heck don`t they tell us about these things before they happen and make it easier on all of us ?? .......... if god was running around with mary`s eggs in a petri dish and dupng them with chemicals to create his son, why didn`t he pass on that knowledge to us .............. why did it take centuries for us to figure out ivf techniques on our own?....... why is he so stingy with his intellectual property ?

........ if these charlatans really want to establish their credibility, they have to do better than this - tell us something we don`t already know ............. how about telling us how to cure cancer or make hydrogen fuel cells on the cheap ?............ save us thousands of man-hours and billions of dollars in research and we will convert to christianity or islam or whatever it is that you are pushing ............ it really doesn`t do us any good if tomorrow, after the chinese have found a cure for cancer, some bearded idiot comes up and says, ``the prophet said, go to china for chop suey and knowledge !``............ i don`t know about you guys, but i am gong to slap this guy silly and say, ``god told me not to suffer fools gladly !``

Jesus was a good man. Mo, Sr. was a good man as was Mo, Jr. It`s all the cock n bull and poppycock show n tell stories that spinmasters came up with that dilutes their message. In the old days, if you couldn`t do magic, you were not a holy man of good repute. So that`s why the Gamora Avenue advertising sheiks came up with turning water into wine, raising the dead, parting the sea, making a scherpent out of a schtick, flyin on a white horse all over creation, blowin horns till the walls came down, and havin a baby without getting banged. Either than Gabriel dude was one omnipresent comedian or they were all smoking some bad shit.

#65, *that not than - read that Gabriel dude.

#64, hamidm2, are you totally dumb? This is the third time you have made a post that deracts from the topic. We are discussing virgin birth and you want the cure for cancer? This is totally atrocious? Do you have no sense of decency? You want to disprove Islam or religion or whatever, do it on a forum that discusses that topic~ don`t try to drag this discussion here into absurd directions.

#62 hamidm2 you say, <<< ............anyway, this `be and it is done` logic has been used by islamists and other religious swindlers to explain all kinds of superstitions and foolishness ......... in his book on `islamic science` dr hoodbhoy talks about our religious scholars who want to explain everything using this theory ......... it is a convenient and lazy way of explaining away things that are hard to fathom >>>

Since the ``be and it is`` part, is part of the discussion regarding the virgin birth, I will entertain your gibberish here. First Hoodbuoy is totally dumb when it comes to understanding religion and science- his example of science is, ``if you jump out the window, you`ll hit the ground``- that is not science, that might be the effect of gravity. Science is first and foremost, a methodology, a way to do research to get to the truth. You can use that methodology in any field, including religion.

That said, I told you to read all the posts before you make your dumb assertions, read #1 again. The ``be and it is`` part is a scientific fact, without that this world would neither have managed to become real, not would the day to day affairs of the world manage to assume any concrete reality. As a physicist, Hoodbuoy either knows this and deliberately hides it or is being totally incompetent (which would explain the sorry state of education in Pakistan).

I wrote as part of post #1, <<< Not so, according to the ``Copenhagen`` approach to quantum systems, objects are ``real`` ONLY when an act of observation by an observer ``collapses the wave function`` granting the system into one or the other of its potential states- that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation. >>>

Now hamidm2, give it up man. You come up with these missiles that you randomly fire at Islam in order to disprove it and your missiles fail like Saddam`s scuds, yet you keep firing those old, worn out, missiles one after the other. Even Saddam gave up his trust in scuds after a while shouldn`t you?

Re: # 68

sorry, call me dumb, but i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ..... all this collapsing wave stuff is beyond me - do you mind explaining it in plain english ?......... it seems to me that this is typical of the attempts by religious zealots to obfuscate and confuse by using highfalutin scientifc jargon to diguise the hollowness of their silly arguments ......... this my friend, is real gibberish !

...... all i am saying is that it in not possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex, even if it is with god...... and that is that .......... i will buy your argument about in-vitro fertilization if you can produce the petri dish from bethlehem ........... be and it is, indeed!

masadi #68,

``......that makes God`s function into the day to day affairs of the universe, ``the BE`` a scientific fact, unless you can find me someone else who is observing everyting and collapsing their wave functions? Find me someone who is doing that universally? There can be NO other explanation.``

Actually, this argument leads to the exact opposite conclusion. It is human observations that are collapsing all the wave functions. Humans have never found a wave function that was already collapsed because some other entity had observed it.

For potential states to become real, the act of observation by an observer is necessary. Who was doing the observing when the universe came to be or who observes today as potential states are transformed into universe-wide reality? Comprendey?

I cannot help you if you deny established scientific explanations my friend, neither can I help you if you deny the obvious

``I will turn away from My signs those who are proud in the earth without justice; and if they see every sign they (still) do not believe in it; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take it for a way, and if they see the way of error, they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our signs and were heedless of them.``
(Quran 7:146)

Re #71.

What becomes real by an act of observation is not only the current state of the particle but it`s entire history. It`s meaningless to talk about the existence of the particle before it is observed by anyone.

I know of no scientist who would agree with your interpretation that `someone` was observing the particle before it was currently observed.

#73, the universe has a history before humanity came to be- a fact. Just because you don`t know of any scientist does not mean they dont exist, check the references at http://www.rationalreality.com and linked articles.

oh, now i get it ! .......... it is that old tree falling in the forest thingy ........

masadi mian, unless and untill a human being observes it, verifies it and writes it down in his/her little notebook it doesn`t matter if the tree fell with or without making a noise ............ so unless god, the father, has some human witnesses who can vouch that he did not have sexual relations with that woman it is hard for us to believe that god, the son, is the result of some scientific miracle ........... look, if it hadn`t been for the blue dress all those people in the blue states would still believe that old bill clinton was a saint - if poor monica had to present evidence we cannot let mary off the hook this easy ........... it is just not fair ......

Re#74,

But the history only becomes real after human observation. There is no need to invoke a supernatural being.

#75 and #76, don`t be absurd, that ``history`` you talk about predated humanity and we are talking about a conscious act of observation not a ``supernatural``- whatever the hell you mean by that- being

Re #77,

If you think your view is such an established fact, why haven`t all the scientists become theists. Surely, they must have other interpretations.

Btw, your assertion that a particle has objective history before observation is disproved by the ``Delayed-choice double slit experiment`` . Please check it out.

masadi,

...... can you explain what all this has to do with christ`s paternity ?....... i read your post #1 and found it to be totally irrelevant ......... call me dense, but i need an explanation, not yet another obfuscation ........

......... just because mary said ``no man has touched me`` doesn`t make it true - remember zohra fauna who had presidents and sheiks fooled with a recording of the azan coming in from between her thighs !!!! ........ and that was in the late sixties ...... now imagine how stupid people must have been two thousand years ago - even you could have sold them this wave theory nonsense ........... but i still don`t get what you are trying to say and i am a pretty smart guy (god created me in his own image)

Re: # 79

khurram mian,

...... i think it is a bit of a stretch to compare observing sub-atomic particles to believing in conception without sex ! .......... particles that you don`t know about are okay - when you know about them you will know about them, and in the meantime you can carry on with your life ......... but to perpetuate lies and myths and tell people that such and such thing exists, even though there is no evidence and no witnesses, is dishonest and dangerous ..........

#79, what you say proves my point not yours. Since human consciousness post dates the objective fact of the universe, the observation of a universal nature is non-human. #80 and #81, you are being dumb again. We were discussing the act of observation in Quantum systems as related to the ``Be and it is`` part, which is mentioned in the Quran related to that context, and which you were trying to ridicule in your usual ``scud missile`` manner.

Re #81

I wasn`t discussing the Virgin Birth with masadi. I was just questioning his assertion that quantum mechanics has somehow established God as a fact.

Regarding the Virgin Birth I have already expressed my opinion in #42.

Re #82,

I will just have to repeat what I said earlier.

In the quantum mechanical world, the history of a particle before an observation is CREATED at the time of observation. There is no prior non-human observation.

Quantum mechanics does not necessitate the existence of God.

Too much of early Christian history has been lost, sanctified, erased, burned, and eradicated by the events of the 4th through 6th centuries. Constantine and his successors eliminated most competing and what they considered less than miraculous happenings in the life of Jesus. The religious literature of numerous sects, including Monophysites, Nostics, and others has been deliberately wiped out to portray the image of Jesus as recorded in the gospels that were officially sanctioned. Other gospels were kept out of the New Testament, even though they were far more relevant to Christianity than, for example, the Book of Revelations. We are left with rumors surrounding the virgin birth, presence of siblings procreated by Joseph and Mary, the special association of Mary Magdeline with Jesus, and the prevailing philosophy of Paul. The transformation of a religion born among Jews speaking Aramaic into a philosophy of Greeks, Greek-Egyptians, and then Romans, not to mention the influence of barbarians such as Goths, Vandals, Lombards, and Franks has removed many links to reality. Celebration of Christmas in December is just one of the few anamolies resulting from this manufactured state religion of the Byzantines. Even today, the officials in Rome refuse to lend a helping hand in determining the truth - consider the Dead Sea scrolls and what happened to that great find.

To a lesser extent, Islam too has been victimized by the airbrushing applied to facts. Numerous Hadiths were fabricated to justify almost every conflicting point of view. Miracles that meant a lot in those days of utter ignorance, are now exposed as mere tricks to impress the general public and compete with other unbelievable and awesome magic of other faiths.

Our challenge in this age is to distinguish between reality and fabrication, between what is relevant today and what was deemed necessary in the past. Unfortunately there are too many vested interests that won`t allow an honest examination of events. Popes, Mullahs, and back to Israel Zionists have no incentive to learn the real truth. Their hard work and positions of power may not look all that solid and divinely inspired once the onion is unwrapped.

#84, I will also have to repeat what I said earlier, with a reference:

Timothy Ferris states in his book, The Whole Shebang :

``...the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics treats as real only observed phenomena, raising the riddle how the EARLY universe could have evolved in the absence of observers. The riddle may be ``solved`` by invoking God as the supreme observer, who by scrutinizing all particles converts their quantum potentials into actual states (Ferris, page 308).``

#86, Muslims need to return to the Quran, centuries of corruption has been canonized under the banners of hadith and fiqh which prevents them to understand the message of the Quran. Only a total purge/removal of extra Quranic material can result in a pure return to the message of the Quran- half baked measures of picking and sifting and choosing will always mask the message, cause division and distortion.

In #87, the second line after the quotation should read `` prevents them from understanding the message of the Quran.``

Thank God the topic went over head...though it is interesting.

Vigin Births are possible, scientifically..but with divine intervention..I may add.

It is a fact that men are more man and lesser woman. Similarly, women are more woman and lesser man. A woman exists in a man and a man exists in a women. The most common example given is the presence of nipples on a man`s chest. Why do they exist?

It is His arrangement. Consider a situation that mankind loses all its men and only women are left. Or all women are lost and only men are left. In that case, it will be the end of mankind. No., the believers say. God, if He wants, can resort to virgin births both from men or women.

Well, the above depends on individual`s belief in God and His powers.

Re: # 89
``No., the believers say. God, if He wants, can resort to virgin births both from men or women. ``

For argument sake, why dint `GOD` just create his `representative on earth` from a man then? It would have been proof certain that HE existed.

Re: # 90

The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing.

The second thing is I am fairly conversant with your views on God and Religion. And I dont consider God and Religions to be a topic of debate or discussions. They are a matter of faith. Either you believe in them or dont believe in them. There cannot be anything as ``scientific believing`` or ``logical believing`` for God.

Re: # 91
``The answer to your question is ``It is He only knows``..thats one thing. ``

LOL. Yes, that could be the only possible answer, as the miracle creators of those days could not have even imagined that one day all these would have been discovered to be possible.

Talking of miracles, there is an interesting story about a recent `miacle` attributed to Mother Therasa. As we know, the Pope wanted to make her a `Saint`, and a miracle was necessary for the purpose.

Soon, a lady claimed that she was cured of a tumor in her tummy after she had a `vision` of Therasa. This fitted in well with the Vaticans plans. A doctor who treated this lady ( a Bangladeshi muslim, if I remember correctly), saw her picture in a newspaper, and called up and said that she had treated this lady for TB of her tummy.

The great scheme came crashing down, but I have nt heard of it since.

But I am sure that this will be one of the many many `miracles` that the fanatics will `convince` generations of young culpable minds with, till they are convinced about god and all the other fables.

Re: # 92

If you are happy with that...I am happy with that..

We humans are imaginary in our nature. Brining to lives somethings imaginary like Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters etc. can be understood. But what is the point in killing something...which according to you...does not exist at all. Let Him also live along with Godzillas, Kingkongs and Harry Potters....what is the harm??

So glad to see my dear Mamujan on Chowk.

-Aisha Sarwari

Re: # 94

`` ... Godzillas, Kingkongs, Harry Potters ... ``

There is a difference, because there are no multi billion dollar organisations at work trying to convince young children around the world that HE, Harry Potter the Great, really does exist.

By the way, have you heard anything about the Therasa miracle?

Re: # 93

So you mean to say that Mother Theresa was a quack??

Re: # 97

``So you mean to say that Mother Theresa was a quack??``
No. I said nothing of that sort. On the other hand, I have admiration for whatever she did for the poor.

I just wanted to know about the progress of the controversial, 20th century, `miracles` attributed to her.

Re: # 98

Frankly speaking, such things do not exist..I agree...But as far as religion and God are concerned...it is too early for mankind to shun these principles... so you have to bear them..for atleast 1000 more years...

Re: # 99

The issue you are raising is itself a topic for another debate.
I just wanted to know about the progress of the controversial, 20th century, `miracles` attributed to Therasa. Have you heard of them at all?