A Muslim Pope?
Ras Siddiqui December 23, 2005
#815 Posted by khamkhwa. on January 4, 2006 12:34:02 pm
[We still maintain that the partition of our land and its people is artificial, forced and unacceptable. ] - Bolta aina #768
... you will be glad to know that we have christened your land as BUSHRA...;)
... you will be glad to know that we have christened your land as BUSHRA...;)
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#814 Posted by mohar11 on January 4, 2006 10:47:38 am
salim
[....I heard that Stuka got a Suntan and is moving to the Bay area to shack up with Ali1...]
Yep - Stuka`s is a sad story.... the guys was ``normal`` .....and then he went to the ``otherside`` to just have a look but came back with a piece of his d!ck missing..... Now he is shacking up with Ali1????.... Well, sh!t happens.....
[....I heard that Stuka got a Suntan and is moving to the Bay area to shack up with Ali1...]
Yep - Stuka`s is a sad story.... the guys was ``normal`` .....and then he went to the ``otherside`` to just have a look but came back with a piece of his d!ck missing..... Now he is shacking up with Ali1????.... Well, sh!t happens.....
#813 Posted by dost_mittar on January 4, 2006 10:21:45 am
Manto:
As someone who has studied that period of Indian history more than perhaps anyone else here at chowk, could you please tell what are the inaccuracies in post#799? Arun Shourie does have an agenda, who doesn`t?, but he is also a very diligent researcher who does his homework well and I have never seen anyone besting him in TV debates, including very well established historians.
My position, as you well know, is that all our leaders had feet of clay, whether Jinnah, Gandhi, Ambedkar or Nehru and were not beneath a little bit of manipulation to achieve their particular agendas. As far as Ambedkar is concerned, I do not know anyone who doubts his brilliance and contributions to India, especially the constitution (although I have a suspicion that he has perhaps been crowned as its architect to the detriment of several others in the committee entrusted with this task).
It is also a fact that Ambedkar is far more popular and well-regarded today than is Gandhi in India, especially among the dalits. If there were a vote among the dalits of today for their favourite leader, he would in all probability trounce Gandhi by an astounding margin. However, it would be a mistake to make this popularity retroactive. His Republican Party made a poor showing in India even after the partition and up to the seventies; it was insignificant everywhere except in his home state of Maharashtra. His popular personna has improved steadily since his death and has changed dramatically with the growth of the caste-based political parties in India, especially that of the Bahujan Samaj Party. But as far as the pre-partition politics was concerned, it was dominated by the Hindu-Muslim divide to such an extent that, to quote Kabir, it was a case of:
Do paatan ke beech mein, baaki raha na koye!
As someone who has studied that period of Indian history more than perhaps anyone else here at chowk, could you please tell what are the inaccuracies in post#799? Arun Shourie does have an agenda, who doesn`t?, but he is also a very diligent researcher who does his homework well and I have never seen anyone besting him in TV debates, including very well established historians.
My position, as you well know, is that all our leaders had feet of clay, whether Jinnah, Gandhi, Ambedkar or Nehru and were not beneath a little bit of manipulation to achieve their particular agendas. As far as Ambedkar is concerned, I do not know anyone who doubts his brilliance and contributions to India, especially the constitution (although I have a suspicion that he has perhaps been crowned as its architect to the detriment of several others in the committee entrusted with this task).
It is also a fact that Ambedkar is far more popular and well-regarded today than is Gandhi in India, especially among the dalits. If there were a vote among the dalits of today for their favourite leader, he would in all probability trounce Gandhi by an astounding margin. However, it would be a mistake to make this popularity retroactive. His Republican Party made a poor showing in India even after the partition and up to the seventies; it was insignificant everywhere except in his home state of Maharashtra. His popular personna has improved steadily since his death and has changed dramatically with the growth of the caste-based political parties in India, especially that of the Bahujan Samaj Party. But as far as the pre-partition politics was concerned, it was dominated by the Hindu-Muslim divide to such an extent that, to quote Kabir, it was a case of:
Do paatan ke beech mein, baaki raha na koye!
#812 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 4, 2006 10:18:33 am
Manto Bhai,
My good friend, I have a favor to ask of you. As part of my scheme to reunify India and Pakistan, I have invited several prominent Indians to visit Pakistan. Please show them around, wine and dine them (OK, just dine them!), and let them leave while begging for reunification. Of course, different visitors will require varying types of emphasis to be convinced. BTW, please save all your legitimate receipts and Altaf Bhai will reimburse you. In the future, I will send his Amex card number by secure e-mail. Also, please keep my request confidential - I do not want the Indians to get wise to what I am planning. :)
First visitor is going to be my man Manmohan. He is a nice gentle guy and very friendly. I don`t think you need to take him to Hira Mandi, as you took Vajpayee Sahib. Manmohan doesn`t look the type who would visit Hira Mandi and besides, being an economist, he probably is not a high-tipper like our own Veeresh. Maybe you can take him to the Dunkin Donuts and do some ``gal gal`` and exchange the Punjoo handshake with him.
Yes, Veeresh is about to make a return trip. Please try to be nice to him. Show him around. He is most interested in standing at the spot where Lahore looks like Singapore. Just give him his daily dose of Geritol and Viagra and the fabled Ibn Batuta of Kahuta will be fine. If you don`t sell it in Pakistan, Geritol is a high-potency vitamin for aging sages. Just ask the octogenarian sage from Pindi - he knows the only pharmacy north of Lahore. Also, see if you can round up that tall, fair, and good-looking customs official who was so nice to Veeresh. Let`s make sure that we don`t miss a single trick.
Also, the new Singh fella, yes the new BJP honcho is coming over. This guy loves to give interviews while eating lunch. Take him around to food street. I want some pictures of this guy eating beef kababs and nihari while enjoying the best of Hira Mandi. These shots may come in handy in the future - you never know.
Also, that was a great job you did with L. K. Advani. I don`t know what you fed him, but the old man worships Jinnah almost as much as you do. Similarly, you really impressed the heck out of Stuka. The young Indian has not been the same since he returned from Lahore. He has become so pro-Paki that I get embarassed sometimes. I heard that Stuka got a Suntan and is moving to the Bay area to shack up with Ali1.
Oh, if Uma Bharati shows up, don`t waste your time with her. She is looking for a job, and I doubt if she can even be a sweeper in Hira Mandi - might scare off the customers.
Vajpayee is retiring so you don`t have to do anything for him. Besides, ever since you took him to Hira Mandi, the guy can`t walk right. If he shows up in Lahore, I doubt he will be able to catch any of the girls in Hira Mandi, no not even the grandmothers there.
Yes, please hide all the Biharis and Mukkus, allowing only fair-skinned Pathans and the few Punjoos with light skin to be visible. For some reason, Indians think that all Pakis are tall, fair, and handsome. They may want to reunite thinking that later they can be part of EU.
Thank you for all this help and once we have realized the united Hindustan dream, I will do my best to get you appointed as the curator of the Jinnah museum in Mumbai. :)
My good friend, I have a favor to ask of you. As part of my scheme to reunify India and Pakistan, I have invited several prominent Indians to visit Pakistan. Please show them around, wine and dine them (OK, just dine them!), and let them leave while begging for reunification. Of course, different visitors will require varying types of emphasis to be convinced. BTW, please save all your legitimate receipts and Altaf Bhai will reimburse you. In the future, I will send his Amex card number by secure e-mail. Also, please keep my request confidential - I do not want the Indians to get wise to what I am planning. :)
First visitor is going to be my man Manmohan. He is a nice gentle guy and very friendly. I don`t think you need to take him to Hira Mandi, as you took Vajpayee Sahib. Manmohan doesn`t look the type who would visit Hira Mandi and besides, being an economist, he probably is not a high-tipper like our own Veeresh. Maybe you can take him to the Dunkin Donuts and do some ``gal gal`` and exchange the Punjoo handshake with him.
Yes, Veeresh is about to make a return trip. Please try to be nice to him. Show him around. He is most interested in standing at the spot where Lahore looks like Singapore. Just give him his daily dose of Geritol and Viagra and the fabled Ibn Batuta of Kahuta will be fine. If you don`t sell it in Pakistan, Geritol is a high-potency vitamin for aging sages. Just ask the octogenarian sage from Pindi - he knows the only pharmacy north of Lahore. Also, see if you can round up that tall, fair, and good-looking customs official who was so nice to Veeresh. Let`s make sure that we don`t miss a single trick.
Also, the new Singh fella, yes the new BJP honcho is coming over. This guy loves to give interviews while eating lunch. Take him around to food street. I want some pictures of this guy eating beef kababs and nihari while enjoying the best of Hira Mandi. These shots may come in handy in the future - you never know.
Also, that was a great job you did with L. K. Advani. I don`t know what you fed him, but the old man worships Jinnah almost as much as you do. Similarly, you really impressed the heck out of Stuka. The young Indian has not been the same since he returned from Lahore. He has become so pro-Paki that I get embarassed sometimes. I heard that Stuka got a Suntan and is moving to the Bay area to shack up with Ali1.
Oh, if Uma Bharati shows up, don`t waste your time with her. She is looking for a job, and I doubt if she can even be a sweeper in Hira Mandi - might scare off the customers.
Vajpayee is retiring so you don`t have to do anything for him. Besides, ever since you took him to Hira Mandi, the guy can`t walk right. If he shows up in Lahore, I doubt he will be able to catch any of the girls in Hira Mandi, no not even the grandmothers there.
Yes, please hide all the Biharis and Mukkus, allowing only fair-skinned Pathans and the few Punjoos with light skin to be visible. For some reason, Indians think that all Pakis are tall, fair, and handsome. They may want to reunite thinking that later they can be part of EU.
Thank you for all this help and once we have realized the united Hindustan dream, I will do my best to get you appointed as the curator of the Jinnah museum in Mumbai. :)
#811 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 8:16:54 am
Kaalchakra...
Thank you for that reference. I`ll be looking Ramchandra Guha up in the Quaid-e-Azam Library or one of the bookstores that carry Indian books.
Encouraged by your post I did a google and found this (something that should put Arun Shourie to shame):
Dalits and Ambedkar
``Since the review recommends going into Dalit politics - a good start is a book that was released only a week ago by Oxford University Press, India - `The Essential Writings of Ambedkar` edited by Valerian Rogerigues (who has written an excellent introductory essay to the book)
At the release ceremony, Dr. Ramchandra Guha spoke about how Ambedkar has been edited out of official histories of the Indian nationalist movement, but has remained a figure in popular consciousness in a way that the other leaders of the time have not managed to do. He talked about how Gandhi Jayanti (celebrating the birth date of Mohandas Gandhi) is typically an indoor function lasting a couple of hours attended by a few politicians and smattering of followers, whereas Ambedkar Jayanti is an outdoor function lasting a full day and attended by thousands of Dalits.
Thank you for that reference. I`ll be looking Ramchandra Guha up in the Quaid-e-Azam Library or one of the bookstores that carry Indian books.
Encouraged by your post I did a google and found this (something that should put Arun Shourie to shame):
Dalits and Ambedkar
``Since the review recommends going into Dalit politics - a good start is a book that was released only a week ago by Oxford University Press, India - `The Essential Writings of Ambedkar` edited by Valerian Rogerigues (who has written an excellent introductory essay to the book)
At the release ceremony, Dr. Ramchandra Guha spoke about how Ambedkar has been edited out of official histories of the Indian nationalist movement, but has remained a figure in popular consciousness in a way that the other leaders of the time have not managed to do. He talked about how Gandhi Jayanti (celebrating the birth date of Mohandas Gandhi) is typically an indoor function lasting a couple of hours attended by a few politicians and smattering of followers, whereas Ambedkar Jayanti is an outdoor function lasting a full day and attended by thousands of Dalits.
#810 Posted by KaalChakra on January 4, 2006 8:07:58 am
amansandhu
By far, the clearest and most insightful writing on the subject of Gandhi-Ambedkar, that I know of, is by Ramchandra Guha - a historian by trade. You may already be familiar with his perspective. If not, God Google should be able to provide plenty of reading material (luckily most of it is in the form of very well-reasoned but short, easy-to-read articles).
By far, the clearest and most insightful writing on the subject of Gandhi-Ambedkar, that I know of, is by Ramchandra Guha - a historian by trade. You may already be familiar with his perspective. If not, God Google should be able to provide plenty of reading material (luckily most of it is in the form of very well-reasoned but short, easy-to-read articles).
#809 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 7:15:15 am
When arjunm have I questioned your legitimate criticism of Pakistan?
#808 Posted by arjun_m on January 4, 2006 7:08:59 am
#806 by Mantolives on January 4, 2006 5:35am PT
western authors who are impartial.
And yet when Indians post some not-so-inconvenient new items from western news sources, they`re paki haters posting from sources intrinsically biased against the land of the pure..
western authors who are impartial.
And yet when Indians post some not-so-inconvenient new items from western news sources, they`re paki haters posting from sources intrinsically biased against the land of the pure..
#807 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 5:39:46 am
Another Amansandhu gem:
``to call these lies it shows how narrow minded you are``
So you quote a bigoted and biased Indian nationalist author, who is forwarding an agenda, on Dr Ambedkar, the undisputed leader of the Dalits/scheduled castes and the man you owe your constitution, and I counter by giving you the facts as they are and I am ``narrowminded``.
Quote one neutral author who bashes Dr Ambedkar the way Arun Shourie does?
``to call these lies it shows how narrow minded you are``
So you quote a bigoted and biased Indian nationalist author, who is forwarding an agenda, on Dr Ambedkar, the undisputed leader of the Dalits/scheduled castes and the man you owe your constitution, and I counter by giving you the facts as they are and I am ``narrowminded``.
Quote one neutral author who bashes Dr Ambedkar the way Arun Shourie does?
#806 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 5:35:32 am
Don`t announce your time in Sydney- I can care less.
As for Arun Shourie, his bigoted book has been dissected before. Unlike the biased authors you use, I always quote from either Indian authors or western authors who are impartial.
As for Arun Shourie, his bigoted book has been dissected before. Unlike the biased authors you use, I always quote from either Indian authors or western authors who are impartial.
#805 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 5:33:43 am
As pointed out earlier... And Ambedkar did not beg anyone to put him on the Cabinet... Congress reacted to Pakistan`s decision to appoint a scheduled caste Hindu - Jogindranath Mandal... and it was a wise decision too... given the wonderful constitution Ambedkar drafted...
#804 Posted by amansandhu on January 4, 2006 5:32:51 am
Yes, Gandhi was whatever you say, and I have qouted from Arun Shouries book, if you want to call these lies it shows how narrow minded you are. Goodnight, its 12.30 in Sydney.
#803 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 5:26:17 am
Excuse me ? You are now imagining history... ``Harijans`` (Scheduled Castes and Dalits hate that word- its like calling them niggas - I know it means people of God but it is patronising and derogatory for them) did not vote Congress. Please- one election in 1937 means nothing... does Ambedkar not enjoy universal respect as the undisputed leader of the Dalits and scheduled castes now? If you don`t know this... then you are more ignorant than initially assumed.
As for ``my selective`` posts - they are not cut n pastes unlike yours. But when I start posting ``Cut-n-pastes`` you wouldn`t have much room to run... You are now lying about the one man who you owe India`s secular democracy too... is there no shame amongst the gandhians?
Why are you so scared of an open debate on that casteist Hindu fanatic Gandhi?
#802 Posted by amansandhu on January 4, 2006 5:18:57 am
Manto, Ambedkar could not become the ``elected`` leader of the Harijan the main reason for his ire against Gandhi. He was routed in the 1937 elections. He begged Jagjivan Ram to talk to Gandhi for a cabinet post. No, doubt I have not read the history of the partition in detail, but your selective posts are pathetic. Maybe some day I will have the time, not at present. Why are you doubting what I have written about Ambedkar. So, your cut and paste is the absolute truth and any contrary view is nonsense. Open your mind Manto, and Gandhi is long gone. Why dont you concentrate on the state Pakistan is now and spend your time on that.
Pathetic... Gandhi was manipulating the scheduled castes and dalits and Ambedkar called his bluff ... thats it. And then Gandhi blackmailed everyone with his ``I`ll fast to death`` if ``Harijans`` fight for their rights...
Then why did the Harijans vote Congress and not Ambedkar.
Pathetic... Gandhi was manipulating the scheduled castes and dalits and Ambedkar called his bluff ... thats it. And then Gandhi blackmailed everyone with his ``I`ll fast to death`` if ``Harijans`` fight for their rights...
Then why did the Harijans vote Congress and not Ambedkar.
#801 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 4:57:01 am
BTW joke of the century: Ambedkar could not become the leader of the ``Harijans``
Ambedkar to this day is revered as a saint and called ``Babasaheb`` by the Dalits and scheduled castes... just visit www.ambedkar.org ... and according to the idiot who wrote the article Ambedkar ``could not become the leader of the Harijans``.
Pathetic... Gandhi was manipulating the scheduled castes and dalits and Ambedkar called his bluff ... thats it. And then Gandhi blackmailed everyone with his ``I`ll fast to death`` if ``Harijans`` fight for their rights...
Ambedkar to this day is revered as a saint and called ``Babasaheb`` by the Dalits and scheduled castes... just visit www.ambedkar.org ... and according to the idiot who wrote the article Ambedkar ``could not become the leader of the Harijans``.
Pathetic... Gandhi was manipulating the scheduled castes and dalits and Ambedkar called his bluff ... thats it. And then Gandhi blackmailed everyone with his ``I`ll fast to death`` if ``Harijans`` fight for their rights...
#800 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 4:53:00 am
Ah a cut and paste attack against the one leader who enjoys universal respect in both countries...
Ambedkar did not plead with anyone to have him included in the Cabinet... it was a tit for tat reaction by the Congress to Pakistan`s decision to make Jogindranath Mandal, another scheduled caste leader, the law minister of the new country. You should be thankful that Ambedkar drafted the constitution that made India a working secular democracy... too bad Mr Mandal was mistreated after Jinnah`s demise.
Ofcourse in 1939`s day of deliverance Ambedkar stood with Jinnah... Ambedkar stood for what he thought was just and fair... and did not care much for the populist bigotry
Ambedkar did not plead with anyone to have him included in the Cabinet... it was a tit for tat reaction by the Congress to Pakistan`s decision to make Jogindranath Mandal, another scheduled caste leader, the law minister of the new country. You should be thankful that Ambedkar drafted the constitution that made India a working secular democracy... too bad Mr Mandal was mistreated after Jinnah`s demise.
Ofcourse in 1939`s day of deliverance Ambedkar stood with Jinnah... Ambedkar stood for what he thought was just and fair... and did not care much for the populist bigotry