A Muslim Pope?

It is ironic because our understanding of Pakistan`s role as a hub between three or even four great economic giants of the world is identical.

Ranjit Sahab

I am sorry- I will not take it easy. It was a distortion of my views first and foremost. You sounded quite serious. Secondly it was a distortion of history since you are maligning a man like Jinnah who till age 60 was hailed as a great secular Indian nationalist by your own people.

Even Jinnah`s idea of Pakistan is misrepresented in such a statement. Did you know that Jinnah deliberately got a Hindu to write Pakistan`s first national anthem (Recall that League had objected to Bande Mataram in 1937) and a Hindu as the law minister of Pakistan. H V Hodson writes in the 1997 edition of ``The Great Divide`` that Jinnah`s ideal of Pakistan was Akbar`s Mughal Empire democratised and modernised... I don``t see it that way but it is one perspective and it counters yours.

In addition to 778...

I wonder why Indians like Ranjit can`t reconcile themselves with the fact that there might be secular Pakistanis, who have nothing against Hindus, but who are proud to be Pakistanis and don`t want reunification with India...

Why must I be maligned as ``anti-Hindu Islamist`` simply because I believe in Pakistan?

Re:manto#778

Manto, I was just kidding around with Salim since he came up with this good cop/bad cop thing. I wonder if you noticed the smileys there.....so take it easy.....

Re:bolta_aina#774

You wrote,``Dont you think that this growing disparity between two peoples(who were/ are essentially one) will not be without any consequences?``

Excellent point!! This is where India has to apply both brains and balls, which we have sadly not displayed for the past 60 years. We need to have a carrot and a stick strategy to deal with both Pakistan and Bangladesh.

First lets talk carrots. The carrots are quite obvious - economic integration leading to economic rewards. The vision of Asian regional cooperation and free-trade spanning India, China and Iran is very compelling as it provides a legitimate structure for Pakistan and Bangladesh to achieve their aspirations. India did not show much of an enthusiasm for it earlier mainly because of its own socialist policies. However that has certainly changed. The other carrot is obviously some negotiated deal on Kashmir such as greater autonomy.

Now lets talk sticks. This is where India has failed miserably except in 1971 when it managed to split Pakistan. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh have serious social problems, which are as serious if not more than what India faces. Sectrainism and regionalism are rampant. India must aggressively exploit these weaknesses and maintain leverage with both Pakistan and Bangladesh. Say a jihadi attack occurs in Delhi. Ok, the reaction should be setting off shia-sunni clashes in Pakistan or supporting Baloch insurgency.

Ranjit...

I just read your sophomorish division of Aurangzeb and Akbar groups. If only it were that simple... or you were more knowledgeable.

In your fantasy world:

Maulana Azad, a sunni Muslim who for most of his life advocated Muslim hijrah out of India is in your ``Akbar group``, Jinnah, an Ismaili Muslim the only politician to be called ``Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity``, whos tood for 35 years for Indian Unity and perhaps the most secular individual produced by the Muslim community is in the Aurangzeb group...

Meanwhile... ``Mr Manto`` i.e. Yasser Latif Hamdani, the son of an Ahmadi and a convert to Ismailism, who has advocated secularism for Pakistan more than anyone else on this website and others and who is routinely abused as ``anti-Islam`` is in ``Aurangzeb`` group.

This alone should show you that the world exists in complex realities and not in simplistic permutations...

correction: burst your bubble

raw-

Sorry to break your bubble.. your epic fantasy the Sindh-Seraiki confederation would be without water ...

Ultimately Aitzaz Ahsan`s Indus Saga might just prove to be right that this land is indivisible and one.

Ah - the Berlin Wall analogy fallacy

Germany was divided against the will of the German people and occupied by the two emerging powers locked in Cold war conflict... the total numerical strength of the German people today is little over 82 million (compare that to Pakistan`s 150 million, Bangladesh 120 million and India 1.1 billion)... Despite the fact that they are united, speak one language and were unwillingly subjected to foreign occupation and division- there still is considerable hostility between the Easterners and Westerners...in a society which is much more prosperous, smaller and homogenous.

I submit that Pakistan and India themselves contain many Germanies and Frances within them... and therefore Pakistan is not ``West India``... it was formed through an electoral process and an act of parliament as a legitimate successor state to the British India, which was a broad administrative unit comprising many territories and princely states...

India with 140 million Indian Muslims already has a significant minority... with 148 million+ 120 million= 268 million Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh ... the number comes out to 408 million Muslims in United India would be caught up in a great Hindu-Muslim confrontation which will ultimately threaten the strong centralised state in India- which is why Congress had rejected the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946- recall.

#772 RANJIT.

OK.

India and Pakistan cannot grow together. We are each others competitors. We have the same strengths and weaknesses. If you look at the present conditions, the chances of India growing more and faster are much more than Pakistan.

Dont you think that this growing disparity between two peoples(who were/ are essentially one) will not be without any consequences? Will not the fight between Haves and Have-nots in the subcontinent intensify?? Will not the rising power of India(read Hindus) will be matched by the equal cries of Jehad?? What do you think does IISc episode reflect??

How do you cope up with that??

#771 MANTO

Our situation is more closer to Germany. They were also partitioned in 1945, though out of defeat in war. And yet they reunited. And after reunion, Germany has emerged to be the most powerful force in Europe. Otherwise ,it had to pay second fiddle to France and UK in Europe.

Re:bolta_aina#768

You wrote,``So you want to say that we Indians have accepted Two-Nations Theory???? ``

No, I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that we Indians are quite satisified with the status quo, no matter how we reached there. We are happy with our physical contours, our demographic mix, our natural resources, our human resources and our ability to forge a modern nation. We are an ascendent civilization and our best days are ahead of us. We do not want to tinker with it too much since it is working for us. It is delivering a better life to more and more of us. So why fix something that aint broke?

The only issues we have is to integrate Kashmir with us and expand our economy even more so that we can become a truly developed nation. Salim came up with an interesting suggestion about Karachi which is interesting from a what-if perspective. However, the reality is that our physical boundaries are not likely to change any time soon.

Akhand bharat just does not make any sense to India any more. Simply from a demographic perspective, it is unmanageable. One can only imagine how any party would win power deomocratically in such a setup. The social issues and maintaining law and order would be impossible. There would be no focus on the economy since we would be dealing with communal crap on a 24/7 basis. Thats why no one wants Akhand Bharat.

Now as far as Naya Hindustan is concerned, most people in India are NOT comfortable with a weak center. Although we have coalition politics at the center, India`s central government is strong and ruthless about maintaining India`s territorial integrity. No one wants a weak nation that will be dictated to by other powers. India has been able to leverage synergies amongst its diverse population, primarily by the policies of the central government. We cannot let that lapse into regionalism, or else we will become like Yugoslavia or Soviet Union with sub-regional identities taking over leading to disintegration.

Bolta Aina...

The answer to your second question is: The monster is using that particular point in time in history as an excuse to devour you... you want to get rid of the monster- kill the monster ... killing the point in history is merely a denial.

India reconciling with Pakistan`s existence is not equal to accepting the Two Nation Theory - read one of my earlier response. Theories and nationalisms are imagined concepts. Pakistan is a legal reality. Next thing you are going to say is that the Arabs should not accept Israel because they believe Zionism is false.

#767 MANTO

Please Manto Please.. forget it for God sake.

If you want to reply, reply to my second question which I posed to Mr. Siddiqui so that I get some enlightenment.

Re:anil#745

You are absolutely correct that the future battleground between civilizations lies in the economic arena. Since major civilizations like India, China, Europe, US already possess nukes, military competition has become meaningless. The might and success of a civilization will now be measured by its ability to deliver the best possible life to maximum number of its citizens. That was how the west triumphed over communism, and it will determine the shape of geopolitics in the 21st century.

India and China are highly complementary to each other. Chinese have specialized in manufacturing and production, while India has specialized in services (IT, financial sector, etc). While both the people are smart and hard working, India has the advantage of language (English) that gives it the upper hand in the services sector. China`s lack of democracy gives it a slight upper hand (in the near-term of course) of maintaining discipline in its manufacturing sector. So I think it is natural for the two giants to move closer to each other in economic cooperation. China has only one ambition - become a RICH country. That`s it!! Trade with India will help China and so it will pursue it. China`s motivation to prop up Pakistan against India loses much of its appeal in light of its new objective.

The tragedy with Pakistan is that its establishment has never reconciled itself to the fact that they live in a small country and must operate on that basis. The Paki establishment has delusions of grandeur and imagines itself to be the successor of the Mughals. That explains their extreme desperation to seek parity with India on everything and their urge to play a bigger role in the global stage. Pakistan is one country whose foreign policy dictates domestic policy. Their hunger for strategic depth as per their Afghan adventures and their interest in grabbing Kashmir are all a part of the Paki dream of building a Pakistani empire stretching from Oxus to Indus. No wonder, the Paki establishment is just not interested in playing a middleware role, since it will mean accepting that they are a small country and a small player on the global stage.

#763 RANJIT

``Only Salim has actually come out in favor of reunification, otherwise no one supports it. ``

So you want to say that we Indians have accepted Two-Nations Theory????

No Sir, Neither have we nor will we. Yes, we have stopped talking about it for the time being because at the governmental level peace building process is going on and these talks of reunification, partition etc. unnecessarily vitiate the atmosphere, without resulting into anything.

We still maintain that the partition of our land and its people is artificial, forced and unacceptable.