A Muslim Pope?

Bolta aina...

Let me answer your question that you posed to Ras about the unnamed person...

It is not that the person doesn`t acknowledge pre-1947 but the person sees that as history and heritage... not present and culture.

Ranjit,

Clearly you haven`t read my posts in detail. I for one have never forwarded the Islam-centric vision for Pakistan. Chowk knows this very well.

I have acknowledged and agreed with your vision of Pakistan as a hub between Economic giants... and as the cross roads of the world. I have written about it in the past... but this article, mind you, was about the battles of the past- only one aspect of which is relevant to modern Pakistan i.e. the vision of Pakistan based on rule of law, pluralism and equality as expressed by the man mentioned above in his speech of 11th August 1947.

As for bloodspilling... I noted before anyone else that this is a hypothesis... and not reality, which is why I am so comfortable in spilling imaginary blood in an imaginary situation. Glad you see it that way.

-YLH

#759 by AlephNull
“The very name ‘Indus Valley Civilization’ may perhaps be misleading”

Another one from the idiot! Let us change the Indus valley name to Hindu valley Civilization to make this idiot happy…..Change the history books now so that this idiot can be happy.

That is all he could get from google....

Alephnull,

The ``sites`` that have been found are quite insignificant compared to the centres and hubs of the Indus Valley civilisation- it is like comparing some obscure sarai in Umerkot to say Lahore Fort or even Taj Mahal. The world knows Harappa and Mohenjodaro ... and they are in Pakistan. Besides the devil is in the details... similarity does not mean same. There might be similarities between sites on Tigris and Euphrates to those in Indus... does that make them one? With Indus Valley, we are operating in the realm of pre-history (whether we admit it or not) and everything is nothing but speculation... otherwise produce a documented history of their politics and government to prove me wrong.

The Hindu-centric world view that your countrymen exhibit (ancient Indian wisdom, Ram Rajya blah blah) has as much in common with the Indus Valley as the Islam-centric world view of my countrymen... so Pakistan has greater claim on the Indus Valley civilisation than the Hindu state any day because of geography.

As for the name ``India``- unless you prove to me that it is the corruption of the word ``Hind`` or ``Hindu`` or ``Hindia``, I am going to assume it is the corruption of Indus- which flows through Pakistan, a distinct reality in the modern world.

Yours sincerely

YLH

Re:manto#757

So now you want to take away India`s name? And do what? Rename Pakistan to India? For God`s sake, grow up.

Yasser, you are obssessed with the past. You are fighting the last century, or rather last millenia`s battles again and again, mostly in your head. The world has moved past partition, Jinnah, Gandhi, hindu/muslim stuff. If you notice, not even ONE Indian wants to reunite with Pakistan, but you are ready to spill blood over some imaginary invasion. Only Salim has actually come out in favor of reunification, otherwise no one supports it. So keep on swinging your sword blindly in the air.

We Indians are talking about economic integration spanning Asia that can change everyone`s lives for the better, while you are still debating whether Gandhi was a racist or Indus Valley civilization was part of Pakistan. Who gives a damn? You want Indus Valley civlization, take it!! At least I am glad to hear that you are acknowledging that there was intelligent life in South Asia before 700A.D

#760 MANTO

You forget about the whole damn thing. I have noted your views and frankly speaking ,I respect them. I will move ahead keeping your views in my mind..be sure about it. Its good that you speak from your heart.Jo bhi kuch mainey tumsey kaha use bhool jao. Galti ho gayee baba, maaf kar do.

#739 RAS SAHIB

I pose the following question before you. Whatever reply, you will give will be acceptable to me.(Other posters please refrain from commenting...its my personal question to him).

One gentleman(I will not name him here) says he was born in the State of Pakistan after partition. So he does not recognise anything which existed prior to that. He is right or wrong , I dont know but he has a right to be right.

I was born in the state of India also after partition. My problem is that every now and then a Monster rises from nowehere in my land, devours a few thousand humans and vanishes in the thin air. When one chases him , it is traced to a particular point of history. The only way to kill the monster is to kill that point of history where it was born.

Now what should one do to kill that monster???

Bolta Aina,

So now you are calling the idea of SAARC as a stable economic body promoting open borders (which by the way was part of Jinnah`s original idea) as your ``rose``. And yet when I wrote the same thing, you said I was conservative.

Salim,

Bangladesh will remain an independent and proud nation and I hope they prosper. If you`d read the history of this sordid affair, the Congress vetoed all plans of an independent Bangladesh (forwarded by Suhrawardy and accepted by Jinnah) in 1947 citing ``Balkanisation`` ... 1971 actually reversed that... if there was to any reunification, Bangladesh should have reunited with India then... but that didn`t happen- nor will it ever happen.

Ofcourse, had we worked out a constitutional civilian government instead of letting the Pathan-Punjabi army dominate after 1958... Bangladesh would still have remained in the union... which goes to show the inherent strength of the original idea... but that is now behind us.

-YLH

Mantolives #757

{{The Indus Valley is one of the oldest civilisations and it is exclusively within Pakistani borders.}}

No sir. Ropar, Kalibangan, Lothal, Rangpur ring a bell? Those major IVC sites have been known for decades. They, with many others, are in India, some in Punjab/Haryana, others in Kutch/Saurashtra.

The very name ‘Indus Valley Civilization’ may perhaps be misleading since an overwhelming majority (more than three quarters) of the known IVC sites are located along the course of the Ghaggar-Hakra (perhaps corresponding to the mythological Saraswati) and its tributaries.

{{Why must Indians always lay a claim on something that is not theirs? like the name India for example?}}

Why isn’t it ours?

#739 RAS SAHIB

I fully agree with you. We must try to reach your vision say by 2010. I fully endorse your view of NEW SOUTH EAST ASIA.

(A Rose will look as beautiful whichever you look at it and smell as sweet by whichever name you call it).

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Another Correction: The Indus Valley is one of the oldest civilisations and it is exclusively within Pakistani borders. Why must Indians always lay a claim on something that is not theirs? like the name India for example?

``Pakistan`s real role is a strategic hub, and it must play this role. This is the role Pakistan needs to facilitate. It does not need to imitate Arabs, nor does it need to have a government that must take orders from the west. I do not imply that Pakistan should be hostile to the west. This will bring true prosperity and thus Pakistan can play a very important role in making it an Asian Century``


You sir have articulated what economists have been harping about for a long time. By 2025 China`s share would 25 trillion dollars and India in the range 8-12 trillion dollars... and that would mean that if Pakistan just played its cards right, getting a huge chunk of that pie would not be a problem...

This imitation of the Arabs is an Indian fantasy about Pakistan- because of the Indian Muslim minority which logically sticks more closely to what it conceives to be Islam... in Pakistan no one imitates the Arabs...

Ranjit (#746)

``Now consider Pakistan as the ``middleware nation`` connecting the 3 giants India, China and Iran/Central Asia and you have the perfect solution.``

Indeed. Calculate existing GDPs of this trade entity, you will be even more astounded. Sardar Man Mohan Singh knew when he said that he wanted more tangible relationship with China. And earlier Chinese Premier in India had said that out of 5,000 years of peaceful relationship, only last 50 years have been unsettled between India and China.

Although, the more important question is how to convince Pakistan to see beyond and help create win win for all.

The power will be in the hands of larger economies and efficent markets. Certainly not in the hands of nations or terrorists with nuclear weapons in their hand, the cold war is over. Otherwise, today, Russia would still be very powerful.

Other questions that arise are:

Do one really believe that China will choose Pakistan so that it can continue to ``ungal`` India?

Will China choose India to make world`s largest economic trading block that covers 40% of the world population and bring world`s 40% of wealth to this part also?

Several persons here mentioned that Pakistan welcomed and India rejected China`s entry in SAARC. They need to see beyond the empty coffee cup, before the world moves on to another day. Let me ask these persons, if Arabs do not want to rely on the West as the single buyer of their oil and energy, would they not want India and Chinese economies as their customers?

This free trade between India and China through SAARC or ASEAN would be great for both India and China, and other asian economies. When you start adding up, Pakistan is about 5 to 7% of the total population and consumer market of these two giant neighbors. Probably the most miser of the miser Indian and Chinese leave the table with more than 5 to 7% in tip.

Let me ask them if Arabs do not want to rely on the West as the single buyer of their oil, who would like for the competition, besides China and India? Even generously tipping Indians and Chinese leave more tip than this as they walk.

Pakistan`s real role is a strategic hub, and it must play this role. This is the role Pakistan needs to facilitate. It does not need to imitate Arabs, nor does it need to have a government that must take orders from the west. I do not imply that Pakistan should be hostile to the west. This will bring true prosperity and thus Pakistan can play a very important role in making it an Asian Century.

I do not believe other than Zakat, it can get any significant help from the Arabs. Turkey is too busy becoming a European country. What can central asia give to Paksitan, it is poorer and has nothing other than gas, oil and now religion.

Iran, China and India are three of the oldest and proud civilization in the area. Pakistan, it seems, is still searching for an identity, as it plays down its old heritage. Although I must add, some of the Indians that I have met who have spend time with Shaukat Aziz, and Musharaff are convinced that both are good leaders who can create, vision, and drive in Pakistan, and India should support them.

Anil Kapuria

reference:#636 by behram1 on January 2, 2006 5:15pm PT

Thank you Mr. Behram1 for giving reference of newspaper mother jones.

I have a very very good friend who has son in usa and he is very nice gentleman and very able person in fast food industry at pretty high level. He is big manager in worlds Largest Chain McDonald restaraunt near Newyork province. Thirty five people work under him he is shift supervisor and he is boss of white people, dark people and some indians work under him.( he told me the chain is open up to 2pm every day) I wanted to read article so I sent Email and he went book store and xroxed pages and then made copy by electronic way and send me.

Let me tell you your intentions of putting that article does not appear good. I would not have surprised if hater of Pakistani ( who refer to us as Paki or pakiland etc all derogetary ) Mr. Arjun would have posted that. It is extremely critical and damaging to IRP. I think and feel there are too anti IRPIans oriented people who publish such articles. Recently very damaging article about IRPian Azad Kashmir people settle in England. Some conspiricy is going on as continouly damaging articles are being published at alarming regularity on this publication. I presume your are expakistani and American and so you are loyal to new homeland of usa. So you can be forgiven as now your are not pakistani but EXpakistani citizen.
I could not even find one sentence good about IRP. Even the language is mocking and making fun of IRP citizen. Like people shouting against hindus and india and same time playing loud damn Indian songs. Or pictures of indian movies actrers and actress surrounded by Jihadi magzines or banned books and magzines. You are wise to know all that stuff is written , the title give out prejudice. The title is saying IRP as ally is not god as GOP is not in control of country and Jihadis are running show. It wronly states as if BLF is is great power and are doing and taking out pipeline, railways and power towers at will. You know this is no so at all. Army is chasing terror artist of BLF and they are running crazy and hiding in mountains and dieing.

I think you think Cowasji is graet man he is not. He gave terrible interview to that jewish and antipakistani auther. Cowasji tells that Musharaff is dictector and he does not acre about country but just his position. You know this is not true. The worst think yhis parsee gentleman did was give very bad answer about future of pakistan. When asked what is future of pakistan Cowasji answers ``Pakistan is DOOMED``. I could not believe such person who has exploited pakistan and had good easy life will say such thing. Same time this ungrateful traitor person has gone to India and written mostly praising India. I think General should start prosecuting this ``gentleman`` for predicting ``doom`` of IRP. If he is allowed to do that I can not blame Mr.Arjun. If we have ungrateful people like Cowasji thinking we are doomed. Then we should forget about liberating kashmir and Indian Muslims but fold all Pakistan and surrender to usa or China as we can not help. With great pakistanis like Salim, Behram and Cowasji we do not need Mr. Arjun. Too many haramis in pakistan. What Aytullah Khomeni said is right muslims are troubled by world as we are corroupt mentally is really true.
please go to India as they will like pakistani like you.

re:#735 by ranjit
You forgot to mention that India has a booming trade with china and is in India`s favor.
Trade with China
As arjun_m pointed out, Pak`s trade with china is a losing preposition.
Sridhar

re:#733 by mohar11
Beharam is going to give a live demonstration of ``How to respectfully submit sugarcane up the @#$``.
Must be worth watching!
Sridhar