A Muslim Pope?
Ras Siddiqui December 23, 2005
#847 Posted by MantoLives on January 5, 2006 7:01:27 am
Yes sadna he continued to be ``constructive`` politician... primarily because Dalit situation was far worse than the Muslim situation and there was hardly anything they could do as they did not form majority groups any where.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#846 Posted by sadna on January 5, 2006 6:10:12 am
amansandhu #various
Stafford Cripps wrote how it was impossible to include Ambedkar and his party in the Constituent Assembly because their party had been largely a local one. The Congress had won most of the Scheduled Caste seats in provincial elections in 1946, and the Constituent Assembly members were voted in by the provincial assemblies and hence would have mostly Congress party`s Scheduled Caste members(as would the Interim Cabinet).
(The nationalist wave in favor of Congress I think had left even Hindu Mahasabha out in the cold- and Viceroy had to search for a suitable Cabinet nominee either in 1945 or 1946 or both).
So whether or not Cripps and the Cabinet Mission left a written recommendation about Ambedkar and his party, - after independence Ambedkar joined the Congress and was member of the Constituent Assembly via the Congress.
Arun Shourie`s book I believe seems to hold Ambedkar in the wrong for the `sin` of opposing the Congress and Gandhi, as if it was automatically anti-nationalist to do so. I don`t agree with that view. For Ambedkar to set himself as counterpoint to the Congress view was a perfectly valid stance according to me. Particularly, because when push came to shove, despite his strong opposition to the Congress and despite the very real oppression his community was facing, Ambedkar did not either threaten nor incite his followers to hatred and violence against Hindus, and continued to be a constructive politician.
In his deliberate courses of action, he did India and Dalits a huge favor. He was truly a great man and India was blessed to have a person such as himself, and Indians are realising it. April 14 his birthday is now a national holiday.
Stafford Cripps wrote how it was impossible to include Ambedkar and his party in the Constituent Assembly because their party had been largely a local one. The Congress had won most of the Scheduled Caste seats in provincial elections in 1946, and the Constituent Assembly members were voted in by the provincial assemblies and hence would have mostly Congress party`s Scheduled Caste members(as would the Interim Cabinet).
(The nationalist wave in favor of Congress I think had left even Hindu Mahasabha out in the cold- and Viceroy had to search for a suitable Cabinet nominee either in 1945 or 1946 or both).
So whether or not Cripps and the Cabinet Mission left a written recommendation about Ambedkar and his party, - after independence Ambedkar joined the Congress and was member of the Constituent Assembly via the Congress.
Arun Shourie`s book I believe seems to hold Ambedkar in the wrong for the `sin` of opposing the Congress and Gandhi, as if it was automatically anti-nationalist to do so. I don`t agree with that view. For Ambedkar to set himself as counterpoint to the Congress view was a perfectly valid stance according to me. Particularly, because when push came to shove, despite his strong opposition to the Congress and despite the very real oppression his community was facing, Ambedkar did not either threaten nor incite his followers to hatred and violence against Hindus, and continued to be a constructive politician.
In his deliberate courses of action, he did India and Dalits a huge favor. He was truly a great man and India was blessed to have a person such as himself, and Indians are realising it. April 14 his birthday is now a national holiday.
#845 Posted by MantoLives on January 5, 2006 2:48:44 am
Come now- your English comprehension is pretty bad I give you that but you can see I said much more than that.
How about Ramchandra Guha ? Is he a liar too then?
How about Ramchandra Guha ? Is he a liar too then?
#844 Posted by amansandhu on January 5, 2006 2:27:04 am
Manto running out of something worthwhile to say, Arun shourie is a liar and he has based his book on hearsay thats all you could say, bec he has a diff view than yours.
#843 Posted by MantoLives on January 5, 2006 1:09:06 am
amansandhu,
Your command over the English language is almost as good as Inzimam-ul-Haq. Fortunately for the latter, he doesn`t live in the land down under. I am afraid I don`t understand what you are saying. I`ll venture a guess though... Gandhi is not a rare man. His writings from South Africa and even later are for everyone to read and judge as to whether he was racist/casteist or not. He was not writing about his faults- but rather one finds fault with what he was writing- Kapeesh?
Ranjit...
Not all Pakistani history books start from 712... That is why I suggested that you visit a Pakistani mission abroad and see if Pakistanis take pride in pre-Islamic heritage or not.
But I agree there is a lot to do before Pakistan returns to Jinnah`s vision. A lot of confusion was created in the 1980s and we are bearing the brunt of that.
Yours sincerely
YLH
Your command over the English language is almost as good as Inzimam-ul-Haq. Fortunately for the latter, he doesn`t live in the land down under. I am afraid I don`t understand what you are saying. I`ll venture a guess though... Gandhi is not a rare man. His writings from South Africa and even later are for everyone to read and judge as to whether he was racist/casteist or not. He was not writing about his faults- but rather one finds fault with what he was writing- Kapeesh?
Ranjit...
Not all Pakistani history books start from 712... That is why I suggested that you visit a Pakistani mission abroad and see if Pakistanis take pride in pre-Islamic heritage or not.
But I agree there is a lot to do before Pakistan returns to Jinnah`s vision. A lot of confusion was created in the 1980s and we are bearing the brunt of that.
Yours sincerely
YLH
#842 Posted by amansandhu on January 5, 2006 12:56:01 am
So, Arun Shourie write on hearsay, what a loser. And yes, Indians have admiration for Ambedkar, along with KM Munshi and BN Rao, for writing the consititution. Gandhi. was a rare man who wrote about his own faults.
#841 Posted by Ranjit on January 5, 2006 12:49:07 am
Re:manto#827
You wrote,``that the identity that mobilised Indian Muslims under the banner of the Muslim League was as much Indian (i.e. South Asian) as it was Muslim``
Manto, with all due respect, you first need to convince your own countrymen about Jinnah`s vision and have them buy into it before trying to convince us Indians about that vision. I wish you luck in convincing Pakistanis on this matter. We Indians would love to see Pakistanis take pride in their pre-Islamic and Islamic heritage. We take pride in everything Indian - Taj Mahal or otherwise. It is the Pakistanis who seem to deny their pre-Islamic heritage or at least give it a very low priority. Pakistani history books emphasize that history for Pakistan began in 700 A.D when Mohd bin Qasim arrived in Sindh and hindu kings like Raja Dahir are portrayed with very negative stereotypes. In fact, hindus in general are portrayed negatively in Pakistani textbooks. That is what has caused generations of Pakistanis to be raised with these confrontational attitudes towards India and hindus. If that changes, that would be a welcome step.
Your struggle for a secular, developed Pakistan begins by reforming your education system and legal system (blasphemy laws, hudood ordinances etc). If you can focus on those things, you will succeed in your objectives to realize Jinnah`s vision. Otherwise you are just wasting bandwidth trying to persuade us Indians to recognize Jinnah`s vision, when your own people do not buy into it.
You wrote,``that the identity that mobilised Indian Muslims under the banner of the Muslim League was as much Indian (i.e. South Asian) as it was Muslim``
Manto, with all due respect, you first need to convince your own countrymen about Jinnah`s vision and have them buy into it before trying to convince us Indians about that vision. I wish you luck in convincing Pakistanis on this matter. We Indians would love to see Pakistanis take pride in their pre-Islamic and Islamic heritage. We take pride in everything Indian - Taj Mahal or otherwise. It is the Pakistanis who seem to deny their pre-Islamic heritage or at least give it a very low priority. Pakistani history books emphasize that history for Pakistan began in 700 A.D when Mohd bin Qasim arrived in Sindh and hindu kings like Raja Dahir are portrayed with very negative stereotypes. In fact, hindus in general are portrayed negatively in Pakistani textbooks. That is what has caused generations of Pakistanis to be raised with these confrontational attitudes towards India and hindus. If that changes, that would be a welcome step.
Your struggle for a secular, developed Pakistan begins by reforming your education system and legal system (blasphemy laws, hudood ordinances etc). If you can focus on those things, you will succeed in your objectives to realize Jinnah`s vision. Otherwise you are just wasting bandwidth trying to persuade us Indians to recognize Jinnah`s vision, when your own people do not buy into it.
#840 Posted by Ranjit on January 5, 2006 12:21:53 am
Re:masadi#833
We Indians have a lot of experience with socialism and ``distribution of wealth`` BS. It started in the time of Nehru and continued till the 80s and India was basically going to the dogs. I remember what it was like and it was ugly. Thanks to the full focus on distribution, there was nothing left to distribute. Living standards were pathetic and India would have broken up by now hadnt Sardar Manmohan Singh stepped up to the plate. Even today we have one state West Bengal which is obsessed with this nonsense which is why it is one of the most backward states besides Bihar.
No offence, but the results speak for themselves. Our poverty rate that we have today is the direct result of those lost years of socialism. We Indians will never ever go back to that. Once we embraced economic reforms, life has improved a 1000000 times already. So thanks, but no thanks. You can continue your research in this topic. We just want to make money and get rich.
We Indians have a lot of experience with socialism and ``distribution of wealth`` BS. It started in the time of Nehru and continued till the 80s and India was basically going to the dogs. I remember what it was like and it was ugly. Thanks to the full focus on distribution, there was nothing left to distribute. Living standards were pathetic and India would have broken up by now hadnt Sardar Manmohan Singh stepped up to the plate. Even today we have one state West Bengal which is obsessed with this nonsense which is why it is one of the most backward states besides Bihar.
No offence, but the results speak for themselves. Our poverty rate that we have today is the direct result of those lost years of socialism. We Indians will never ever go back to that. Once we embraced economic reforms, life has improved a 1000000 times already. So thanks, but no thanks. You can continue your research in this topic. We just want to make money and get rich.
#839 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 11:47:02 pm
Gandhi`s own works are not ``impartial`` enough for you. How about Richard Grenier`s ``Gandhi nobody knew``? Not impartial.
Arun Shourie`s point of view is based on speculation. Dr Ambedkar lives on in the hearts and minds of the people and through the wonderful constitution, he so generously bestowed on your otherwise mediocre country.
#838 Posted by amansandhu on January 4, 2006 11:35:53 pm
Manto, you do the same with regard to Gandhi- an impartial view. Arun Shourie has written a well researched book. The biggest polemicist around is you with regards to Gandhi.
#837 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 10:25:53 pm
Amansandhu,
Read credible historian Ramchandra Guha`s work on Dr Ambedkar as Kaalchakra as pointed out instead of relying on an Indian nationalist bigot who is promoting his own point of view at the cost of the one man every Indian should really truly be proud of.
No real historian has ever taken this view on Ambedkar. Only Arun Shourie who is a polemicist and nothing else. All I am asking is produce a neutral impartial historian who has the same point of view.
Read credible historian Ramchandra Guha`s work on Dr Ambedkar as Kaalchakra as pointed out instead of relying on an Indian nationalist bigot who is promoting his own point of view at the cost of the one man every Indian should really truly be proud of.
No real historian has ever taken this view on Ambedkar. Only Arun Shourie who is a polemicist and nothing else. All I am asking is produce a neutral impartial historian who has the same point of view.
#836 Posted by bolta_aaina on January 4, 2006 9:40:46 pm
MANTO/SALIM BHAI
After having so many interactions with Manto and others and listening to their views, I thought again and again over United Hindustan concept. So much so that I didnt sleep last night and kept on thinking.
By dawn, I was ready with a toally new concept which I hereby put forth for the perusal of all and sundry.
I call this new concept as ``SAHU``. yes SAHU. In its expanded form it will read as ``SOUTH ASIAN HIGHWAY UNION``. The main theme of the SAHU will be let the people remain divided ,let us unite the Highways. The total subcontinent will coverted into a world-class 8-lane Highway. The people whose Houses, Fields, properties will get destroyed will be bundled to Antartica, if they protest. Majority-Minority problem in India will be solved by a one-time offer to Minorities to get converted into Majority out of their own will in the first instance. Otherwise, they will be forced to do so by a parliament resolution without any legal remedy at their disposal. There will not be any minority community in India, all will be converted into Majority Community.
Pakistan will be converted into Punjabistan and will be named so. Those who disagree will be given a reclaimed area to be brought up in the Arabian Sea at a later date. Those who prefer to stay back, their history, language and culture will cease to exist and they will adopt Punjabi and Punjabi culture in toto.
There will not be any poor left in SAHU. We will manupulate our Exchange Rate in such a way that our per capita income ,on paper, never falls below a certain value, comensurate with those of Scanidavian Countries. We will continue to grow at 10-15% annually by manipulating the growth data so that there is uninterrupted flow of FDI in SAHU.
Our Highways will be our pride. Only Ferraris and Mercedezs` will be allowed to run on them...no other lesser model. The Ferraris and Mercedez will be subsidised by the respective governments that a person who can afford a two wheeler can afford a Ferrari/ Mercedez.
Our poor and downtrodden people are our greatest resources, we must remember. They will be exported as Slaves to other countries at a hefty premium(to be paid only in Dollars) so that we can earn foreign exchange to subsidise Ferraris and Benzs`.
American Army will be given a free hand to recruit our poor people and use them as cannon-fodder in its worldwide adventures elsewhere. We will take a commission of 50% out of each individual`s salary who joins the elite American Forces.
Our ladies are considered to be the beauties of the world. Rich Arabs will be given a free hand , of course after paying the requisite commission and provided the ladies are designated as ``Queens``.
In the final analysis, no more Naya Hindustan, no more United Hindustan, no more United India, nothing. Its only SAHU, SAHU AND SAHU.
LONG LIVE SAHU. SAHU ZINDABAD.
After having so many interactions with Manto and others and listening to their views, I thought again and again over United Hindustan concept. So much so that I didnt sleep last night and kept on thinking.
By dawn, I was ready with a toally new concept which I hereby put forth for the perusal of all and sundry.
I call this new concept as ``SAHU``. yes SAHU. In its expanded form it will read as ``SOUTH ASIAN HIGHWAY UNION``. The main theme of the SAHU will be let the people remain divided ,let us unite the Highways. The total subcontinent will coverted into a world-class 8-lane Highway. The people whose Houses, Fields, properties will get destroyed will be bundled to Antartica, if they protest. Majority-Minority problem in India will be solved by a one-time offer to Minorities to get converted into Majority out of their own will in the first instance. Otherwise, they will be forced to do so by a parliament resolution without any legal remedy at their disposal. There will not be any minority community in India, all will be converted into Majority Community.
Pakistan will be converted into Punjabistan and will be named so. Those who disagree will be given a reclaimed area to be brought up in the Arabian Sea at a later date. Those who prefer to stay back, their history, language and culture will cease to exist and they will adopt Punjabi and Punjabi culture in toto.
There will not be any poor left in SAHU. We will manupulate our Exchange Rate in such a way that our per capita income ,on paper, never falls below a certain value, comensurate with those of Scanidavian Countries. We will continue to grow at 10-15% annually by manipulating the growth data so that there is uninterrupted flow of FDI in SAHU.
Our Highways will be our pride. Only Ferraris and Mercedezs` will be allowed to run on them...no other lesser model. The Ferraris and Mercedez will be subsidised by the respective governments that a person who can afford a two wheeler can afford a Ferrari/ Mercedez.
Our poor and downtrodden people are our greatest resources, we must remember. They will be exported as Slaves to other countries at a hefty premium(to be paid only in Dollars) so that we can earn foreign exchange to subsidise Ferraris and Benzs`.
American Army will be given a free hand to recruit our poor people and use them as cannon-fodder in its worldwide adventures elsewhere. We will take a commission of 50% out of each individual`s salary who joins the elite American Forces.
Our ladies are considered to be the beauties of the world. Rich Arabs will be given a free hand , of course after paying the requisite commission and provided the ladies are designated as ``Queens``.
In the final analysis, no more Naya Hindustan, no more United Hindustan, no more United India, nothing. Its only SAHU, SAHU AND SAHU.
LONG LIVE SAHU. SAHU ZINDABAD.
#835 Posted by amansandhu on January 4, 2006 9:36:35 pm
1- ``Ambedkar was never popular with the Dalits``- you yourself have said that Ambedkar has captured the imagination of the Dalits and till today his memory is much more revered than Gandhi`s in the Dalit mind and those in Pakistan like me.
2-``that Ambedkar begged for cabinet post``... this is a lie. India was probably looking for a major scheduled caste /dalit figure as tit for tat for Jogindranath Mandal`s appointment in Pakistan. Ambedkar`s appointment was the wisest decision in retrospect for India and Mandal`s mistreatment after Jinnah`s demise was the worst thing for Pakistan.
MaNto,
why are you deliberately trying to mislead. DM ji has said that Ambedkar bec popular in the seventies.
So, what Arun Shourie writes is all lies bec its diff from what u have been preaching and what Manto say is the absolute truth. Ambedkar lost almost all harijan seats to the congress in 1937.
2-``that Ambedkar begged for cabinet post``... this is a lie. India was probably looking for a major scheduled caste /dalit figure as tit for tat for Jogindranath Mandal`s appointment in Pakistan. Ambedkar`s appointment was the wisest decision in retrospect for India and Mandal`s mistreatment after Jinnah`s demise was the worst thing for Pakistan.
MaNto,
why are you deliberately trying to mislead. DM ji has said that Ambedkar bec popular in the seventies.
So, what Arun Shourie writes is all lies bec its diff from what u have been preaching and what Manto say is the absolute truth. Ambedkar lost almost all harijan seats to the congress in 1937.
#833 Posted by masadi on January 4, 2006 9:00:46 pm
#831, no, I`m very difficult to classify since I am open to all truth regardless of label. How about that ?
#832 Posted by MantoLives on January 4, 2006 8:52:56 pm
tahmed...
Lol... check out my discussion with good ol` alephnull on the topic.
Lol... check out my discussion with good ol` alephnull on the topic.