A Muslim Pope?

masadi: can you sing the ``Internationale``?? (just curious).

ylh: and the Taj Mahal is ours too, being a kind of a gazebo in our Pakistani backyard (as explained in my previous post).

#826, a totally ignorant analysis of developement and poverty. The problems with poverty that the world faces have more to do with distribution than ``development``. The ``leftists`` that you hate work for greater distribution of national wealth to ensure that a base for greater development in the future develops. Regardless of the percent growth of an economy if the wealth is not distributed equitably and lines the pockets of a few, there will be no alleviation of poverty or long term development.

Also clearly visible in your analysis is confusion of public issues with personal choices of character. The roles that people play in various social institutions affect their positions and roles in other institutions. The kind of economic institution a society has will affect the type of family they are going to have, the levels of divorce etc. You cannot ignore the interplay of institutional structure when you talk about things like family and morality. Institutional pressures work independent of personal choices and transcend them.

Right now with an over 90% REAL poverty rate in India, all this development you talk about has been a farce, we need your much hated leftists to rescue your country just like they did with America when their struggles got them the 8 hour work day or social security or other privilages that are ``hateful`` to utopian capitalists.

ylh: actually, all of india is a mere backyard for Pakistan. The name India is from the river Indus (sindh = river in sanskrit, became hind in ancient persian after the achaemids in 4-5 centuries BC took over areas around and to the west of the Indus (i.e. what is now Pakistan), from where the term travelled to greece via troops recruited from this area by Darius I in his wars with the Greeks). The more appropriate name for this Pakistani backyard is actually Bharat (after Bharata, a tribe who lived in what they called arya varta back in vedic times).

So, every time an Indian sings ``Jai Hind``, he is rooting for Pakistan!!

;-)

rsridhar,

Indus Valley (or 90% of it) is geographically located within Pakistan. It is ours. Taj Mahal is located in India- it is yours. Jinnah did not renounce any legacy. He had infact vehemently protested against Nehru`s exclusive use of the word ``India``- he said that Dominion of Pakistan and the Dominion of Hindustan together make up India. You may not agree with this version but you can`t claim he renounced it. As Stephen Cohen says in the ``Idea of Pakistan`` that the identity that mobilised Indian Muslims under the banner of the Muslim League was as much Indian (i.e. South Asian) as it was Muslim... meaning that if it was distinct nationalism within India, it was also a distinct nationalism without. This is precisely why Jinnah had imagined joint defence pacts with India against all foreign aggression- or as he told Kuldip Nayyar that if India was ever threatened by a foreign Muslim country, Pakistan would stand by India... because ``blood is thicker`` and Pakistanis and Indians are of the same stock. You can go on lying about the man and making up new stories- but you can`t logically claim the Indus Valley. Read Indus Saga by Aitzaz Ahsan to see the importance of the Indus Valley to Pakistani nationalism- which is why even the most Islamic/Arabo-phile of Pakistani rulers uses Indus Valley civilisation- which is the first thing (The priest king) you see when you go to any Pakistani mission abroad.

You have over the last 5 years proved your ignorance of Pakistan many times, so I cannot say I am surprised by your stupid statement.


Anil Kapuria,

What advantage has ``negative`` propaganda against Pakistan gotten Indians except causing heartburn and fuelling hatred? As I see it we are still experiencing a post-partition dust storm kicked up the Indians... the dust will settle and the world will see the truth.

I assure you - we are building a great country- our time has just not come yet.


Dost Mittar,
Thank you for that post.

The problem with Arun Shourie`s analysis is that he suggests

1- ``Ambedkar was never popular with the Dalits``- you yourself have said that Ambedkar has captured the imagination of the Dalits and till today his memory is much more revered than Gandhi`s in the Dalit mind and those in Pakistan like me.

2-``that Ambedkar begged for cabinet post``... this is a lie. India was probably looking for a major scheduled caste /dalit figure as tit for tat for Jogindranath Mandal`s appointment in Pakistan. Ambedkar`s appointment was the wisest decision in retrospect for India and Mandal`s mistreatment after Jinnah`s demise was the worst thing for Pakistan.


-YLH

Re:rsridhar#825

I have always believed in a carrot and stick policy towards Pakistan and Bangladesh, especially in light of our history. Trade and commerce is a great carrot for obvious economic benefit to all Pakistanis. If Pakistan falls behind India so much that the economic disparties become humungous, then there is even more fear of catastrophic jehad from frustrated Pakistanis. Also some of the money that Pakistan will make off trade or gas pipeline will line the pockets of their corrupt generals. So the hope is that they will think twice before killing the golden goose by funding jehad.

At the same time, India cannot rely on Pakistanis to be sensible. We must carry and use the stick, which is our ability to payback Pakistan for any mischief. You fund jehad, we will fund your insurgencies. You stop jehad, we will do the same. Violence in Delhi will be met by similar violence in Karachi. A judicious combination of carrot and stick policy can over time control Pakistan`s behavior and even straighten it out (which will incidentally benefit Pakistanis). Typically India has pursued an all-carrot or all-stick policy depending on the mood and situation at hand. Either extreme is wrong and detrimental to our future.

As far as the toll of economic prosperity is concerned, I will gladly take that over poverty. There is no virtue in poverty, with all due respects to Gandhi. If you want to live a simple life out of choice, great. But if you are hungry and homeless in spite of your efforts, it is a failure of our system. Many times Pakistanis come and taunt us about visible poverty in India, people sleeping on footpaths, kids begging on streets and living in slums. We may get upset, but they are not off the mark. How can we tolerate this any longer? It is a downright shame that a smart, talented people like Indians have to have this kind of visible misery. We have gotta shoot for 10% economic growth for the next 20-30 years, which is the only way to get rid of poverty. That is why I hate leftists so much. Their misplaced sympathy for the poor leads them to oppose economic reforms that actually end up as the only real way to benefit the poor. I am not against safety nets and so forth, but it is a folly to pursue leftist policies in India, when what we need is aggressive growth.

As far as social ills are concerned like divorce, promiscuity, crime etc, I disagree with you. It is a complete mistake to tie it to economic growth. It is a test of our collective character on whether we can maintain our family values and culture when we get affluent. When you dont have anything, self-control is easy because you have no choice. You dont have the moolah to spend on wine, women and song. So you are forced to lead a simple life. The real test of self-control comes when you have money, when you have choices. That is when the real fibre of a civilization kicks in. That will depend on how each one of us raises our kids and leads our lives. If we disintegrate socially because we make money, that will just show the hollowness of our claims of Indian culture and family values.

re:#823 by ranjit
You are right in saying that nothing should prevent one from trading if that brings in prosperity and peace.
The big question is: will trading with Pak bring peace?
Let us say that a gas pipeline is built connecting Iran with India thr` Pakistan (an unlikely event but let us just assume it happens) and India pays a hefty sum of say $200 million and above annually to Pakistan as transit fee. Of course it will deliver the much needed gas to India and the transit fee will make Pak very happy. My guess is Pak rulers would divert that money towards jehad in Kashmir. Ultimately, a prosperous Pak (given the present setup) will come to haunt India.
However, things will be different if Pak were to elect a political leader who has a vested interest in having friendly relations with India and has a popular vote base so he can even defy the military. That is not going to happen anytime soon, is it?
You are absolutely rightt about the fact that middle class India has never had it so good as at present. One need to also see what kind of toll economic prosperity takes on an individual`s life. I am hearing about increasing divorce rates, old age homes, crimes which have hit the roof in places like Delhi. There is always a tradeoff and economic prosperity comes at a terrible price. Gandhiji said that India, in an effort to import West`s comforts, should not end up importing its miseries as well.
Here are some of the quotes about materialism from the Mahatma:
(I hold that economic progress in the sense I have put it is antagonistic to real progress. Hence the ancient ideal has been the limitation of activities promoting wealth. This does not put an end to all material ambition. We should still have, as we have always had, in our midst people who make the pursuit of wealth their aim in life. But we have always recognized that it is a fall from the ideal. . . . I have heard many of our countrymen say that we will gain American wealth but avoid its methods. I venture to suggest that such an attempt, if it were made, is foredoomed to failure. We cannot be ``wise, temperate and furious`` in a moment.)

(What I object to is the craze for machinery. . . . Men go on ``saving labour`` till thousands are without work and thrown on the streets to die of starvation. I want to save time and labour, not for a fraction of mankind, but for all. . . . Today machinery helps a few ride on the backs of millions.)
Rulers of India need to remember the wise counsel of Gandhi. Economic prosperity (through trade, other means) is good if it can make a large dent in poverty but if only creates some pockets of affluence, it will lead to a backlash from the deprived section of the population. Already, i am hearing voices of discontent and a claimor for reservation in the corporate sector. Govt has the big responsibility to see that the economic pie is distributed equitably. Can the corrupt politicians of India rise to the task?
One has to wait and see.
Sridhar

re: Jinnah`s legacy
Leaders must be judged by the legacy they have left behind. What is Jinnah`s legacy?
Jinnah must have a backache turning in his grave!
Sridhar

Re:rsridhar#820

I am not saying that we forget USA. We can have great economic relations with USA as well as pursue opportunities in our neighborhood with China and Iran/Central Asia. No need to tie ourselves to just the US and put all our eggs in one basket. After all US trades with everyone, so why shouldnt India do the same?

I do agree that India has a long way to go. We are not even in the league of Thailand and South Korea, let alone USA. Having said that, we are making immense progress and the benefits are spreading across the population. Poverty levels are decreasing and opportunities are increasing for ordinary folks to make a good living. Certainly the last decade has been amazing. Also people from US are voluntarily returning back to India, which was unheard of even a few years back.

I remember in my father`s generation, an engineer would have a salary of Rs 2000 per month and work his whole life for peanuts. If he was lucky and saved his whole life, he could buy a third-hand Ambassador car 1 year before retirement. That was the state of India even in the eighties. No wonder, the sikhs and kashmiris wanted to quit the union. Most of us where scrambling to get out of India too at the first possible opportunity.

Now, my young cousin who has been working for barely 2 years has bought a brand new car and is on the verge of buying a flat. Unlike people in the US, he has no fears of job loss since jobs are available dime a dozen. So clearly there has been a lot of progress. But of course, much remains to be done especially in the rural sector and Manmohan Singh has announded a New Deal for the rural sector.

As far as reservations in the private sector is concerned, it will never happen. No one will allow that. At best some kind of US style affirmative action programs might kick in that promotes diversity but there will be no quotas.

re: legacy of Gandhi versus Jinnah
In Pak today, a military dictator has declared war on his own people, who are now up in arms against this ``Punjabi domination``.
Click on the link to know why
Gandhi smiles while Jinnah turns in his grave
Sridhar

re:#785 by Mantolives
Ha, ha, ha.
Jiinah turns in his grave while Gandhi has the last laugh!
Sridhar

re:#769 by ranjit
You and that fella Anil seem to think that India and China can forget the rest of the world if they can just trade among themselves.
You conveniently forget that US is India`s biggest trading partner. It is USA`s corporate genius that found outsourcing. Untiil then, much of India`s talents was hidden and untapped. Because India`s unemployed engineers and overqualified workers are now willing to do jobs that few in the west would venture to take (one of my cousins in India was a doctor working as a medical transcriptionist; he found no use of stethoscope in this new job!), it does not mean India has finally arrived.
The gains of new liberalization have not seeped down to the rural masses. Infrastructure in India is dismal, so much so that Narayana Murthy has threatened to move his work out of Bangalore. The newfound prosperity in certain sections in urban India, largely due to corporatte USA`s genius in finding cheap source of talent in India and outsourcing work where possible, will not be able to solve India`s problems of poverty, which is mostly rural. Political corruption has ensured that rural area would be largely untouched.
Now, i hear voices of dissent and people clamouring for reservation in corporate sectors. This would be the easy way for politicians to keep their electorate happy but would be disastorous for India. One has to wait and see how MMS tackles this issue.
Sridhar

re:#757 by Mantolives on January 3, 2006 8:53pm PT
(Another Correction: The Indus Valley is one of the oldest civilisations and it is exclusively within Pakistani borders. Why must Indians always lay a claim on something that is not theirs? like the name India for example?)
Manto miyan has forgotten that his hero Jinnah (whose very name causes him to go into an orgasm) renounced all the legacy connected with ancient India when he founded a nation of muslims. He did not have a sense of history,as did Nehru.
Indus Valley belongs to India as does Taj Mahal (despite having been built by a muslim).
Sridhar

re: Manto`s comments
(By 2025 China`s share would 25 trillion dollars and India in the range 8-12 trillion dollars... and that would mean that if Pakistan just played its cards right, getting a huge chunk of that pie would not be a problem...)
Every Paki`s dream: get a free meal if you can!
Sridhar

Yasser (#756)

You are correct that Pakistan would not have problem getting a huge chunk of the pie.

However, I am also saying that many of the non-solvable problems of the past and present will look so minicule that younger generation leaders will be able to solve them in their own way, for example by sitting in a cafe in Srinagar over a Coffee. Also as a strategic hub, Pakistan`s role will be more critical for the entire region than its population (5 - 7%) reflects. Akin to the position Singapore in ASEAN, and Hong Kong in China has.

``This imitation of the Arabs is an Indian fantasy about Pakistan``
Assuming this is true, don`t you think Paksitan should launch a media campaign to change this image. Rather than, when President Mushraff lands in Delhi, saying Pakistan is more conservative than India. Image building can help. If Pakistan is doing so much to root out terrorism, why not get the TV documentaries and Internet videos out. If ArjunM can find negative reports through google etc., someone else will find positive image building too.

Anil Kapuria

Guys,

Check this article out. Very interesting discussion of India`s potential -

http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/economist/2074