Maulanas cry foul over a ’suhaag-raat’

irena, good show..please write more about stuff from street level.

re:#29 by stuka
Notwithstanding some recent bollywood movies showing kissing scenes openly, sex is still a taboo in India. So everything related to sex is under a wrap.
One unwanted consequences is the plethora of hip gyrations, bosom heavings etc that u see in a typical bollywood movie (which makes me feel like vomiting) in scenes where all that was required to be shown was just a kiss!
It is not just the mullah who object to the kiss!
I remeber a priest in Pushkar, Rajashtan threw a fit when an Israeli couple (recently married) kissed in public
Another unwanted consequence of sex being a taboo is that it is not discussed openly either in classrooms or in public fora in India. Public ignorance about safe sex has resulted in the spread
of HIV infection in India
Sridhar

Zero

Majority is authority is actually a very good principle. Yet, the job of a conscientious person in the minority of one is to bring before the majority issues and points of view the majority may have neglected.

I had to hit back at the so-called ulema on this one, “I too am a Muslim, I find nothing wrong in the film.” To which the Maulana replied, “That is your opinion.” To which I replied, “That the film is tasteless is just YOUR opinion.” The Maulana and the lawyer were quiet again.

First of all it sounds as if the writer was deliberately there to justify their own need to watch the film, and secondly, it think the answer quoted above given to the write was adequate enough. Opinion of one Muslim can never be taken over the well-being and wishes of the majority. Thats what everyone is taught. Majority is authority.

a nice read... what it certainly does is make me want to watch the movie which otherwise i probably wouldn`t have

#35 chuhay:
``Abey Burpy,
Are you responding to Stuka or submitting a holy matrimonial ad?
Saala, aata he Chowk pe rishta dhoondhne. :)``

LOL. Happy New Year, brothers and sisters on chowk!

# 39

Accuracy is one of the pillars of journalism. So, shouldn`t that nick be ``nakhalavi?``

To all Chowkies:

Haiy tau yeh rasm-e-zamanah, lekan phir bhi
Ho mubarak tumhain yeh saal nya, meray rafiq

Happy New Year

Mohammad Gill

Thanks everyone for reading this piece and posting your comments. Happy New Year.

Irena Akbar

Zombilici, ShoreSahib,
Thank you both for your interesting answers. Between the two of you, you have provided the answer I was looking for. Yeni Cheri (New Army) were Balkan Christian boys taken at a young age as a tax. As Zomiblici has detailed, they were not eunuchs. Mr. ShoreSahib also alludes to the fact that they were administrators and the elite military corps.

Teshekur. Allah Smarladik.

For Salim Chauhaan:
Rana Jee,

The YeniCheri fulfilled administrative purposes in all departments of the Ottoman Sultanate from management of the Topkapi Saray, Harems, Army etc....

The Eunuchs or Khwaja Sera`s of the Muslims courts of Mughal India, Safavid Persia, Ottoman Turkey, and Fatimid Egypt were not the limp wristed Hijras of Post colonial India rather were formidable figures both powerful and very wealthy whose estates were absorbed back into the ruling monarch`s treasury after their death.

It is debatable what made them eunuchs. Eunuch does not translate as Hijras rather it is as you suggested a number of possible genetic and physical characteristics manifested in the male body. We can discuss those in detail if you so wish, but I am not sure if I answered your question to your satisfaction.

sincerely
Asim

#34 by Salim_Chauhan (I could be mistaken, but the Yeni Cheri (New Army) or Janizaries were ...)

The Janissaries were indeed the elite corps of the Ottoman army. It may be that some of them ended up as eunuchs, although that was highly unusual. The boys recruited throguh the policy of devshirme, which was in effect a system of human taxation, were Christians from the Balkans, who were brought to Istanbul and then submitted so a process of selection. The most worthy of them were to remain in at the sultan`s court, while those deemed unfit would be sent down to Anatolia.
The ones who stayed on at the court received diverse training... ranging from physical training to languages, law, religion etc. The bulk of them would end up making up the military corps, while the elite who were trained in administrative matters had quite promising career prospects as governors and even viziers.
The close guard of some Ottoman sultans was indeed made up of Janissaries, but that has little or no connection to the eunuchs.

#33 Burpy {``I am a well-educated, English-speaking, American-TV-viewing, progressive, upper(middle)class, high-disposable-income, urban, young male. I have certain opinions and expectations about how my lifestyle should be. Within the limits of my immediate society- my home, workplace and social circle- I manage to sustain this lifestyle fairly comfortably...``}

Abey Burpy,
Are you responding to Stuka or submitting a holy matrimonial ad?
Saala, aata he Chowk pe rishta dhoondhne. :)

Shore Sahib #24, {``THe Yeni Cheri of Turkey fulfilled a similar purpose.... ``}

Sir,
I could be mistaken, but the Yeni Cheri (New Army) or Janizaries were the corps formed by taxation levy, in terms of young boys, on Balkan Christians. These were raised as Muslims and given the best training in military and administrative affairs. They were sworn to protect the Sultan in battle and not necessarily as eunuchs in harems. Isn`t that right?

stuks,

my post #32 probably raises more questions than it answers, so lemme give it another shot.

I am a well-educated, English-speaking, American-TV-viewing, progressive, upper(middle)class, high-disposable-income, urban, young male. I have certain opinions and expectations about how my lifestyle should be. Within the limits of my immediate society- my home, workplace and social circle- I manage to sustain this lifestyle fairly comfortably, with nobody none the worse for it.

But I also live in a country where my outlook and opinions are not shared by that many, especially where issues of ``morality`` and ``culture`` are concerned. Hence in any public domain I am smart enough to realise that the popular opinion, however wrong it may seem to me personally, will hold sway.

Now I may resent this (I do) and even protest it ( lots of people do, mostly in the safe confines of armchairs), but to deny that it exists with an airy nonchalance like Irena does is the sort of hollow breeziness I am referring to in my earlier posts.

Hope this clarifies, anyway I am sleepy now, will check in the morning to see if this made any sense :))

Re: # 29

``out`` meaning unpopular. These things are cyclical. Frankly from all accounts the 70s were far more liberal than the present day in some ways.

sir-jee `` breejhy tone `` shayad eajhy aye, but my point is that it betrays a certain tremor in the voice as well. Pooh-poohing the idea of India being a conservative nation just because one`s friends are liberal doesn`t change the facts.

these are perfect times to forge hindu-muslim unity. the maulanas should invite shiv sena, swadeshi manch etc to share the podium and show a common front in solidarity for indian abroo.

What would you say if these leaders (. Hindus or Muslims does not matter) approach Polictical reps and get the movie, or scenes, of this nature banned? Would that be OK? In that case only the mode of expressing their disagreement by these religious leaders would be condidered incorrect.


Yes, if they hav the support of the public, let it be banned. After all, thats what Indira Gandi did with Kissa Kursi Ka.

``nudity is out, porn is out, talking about sex is out, performances of the Vagina monologues definitely out;``


Out for who? The millions who made a movie about Lesbians a hit? ``Girlfriend`` was it not? The millions who watched Insaaf Ka Tarazu and made it a hit back in the 70s? If porn is out, who buys the Malyali skin flics that are made in the thousands? I am not even going to mention the Mastram novels and the Human Digests u get outside Delhi Railway station...oops, guess I just did. U should check out the respectable ``uncle types who end up buying stuff like that..For all u know, maybe the Maulanas did so too on their way back to Deoband or whatever.

``Her ``breezy tone`` is a facade and one that comes easy to many English-educated, liberal Indians.``

Sure it comes easy, as it does prolly to me. So how is it a facade? Do I have to speak Bhojppuri to keep it real?

Re: # 9

I wonder what is meant by `practicing muslim`? Is it like practicing law as done by professional lawyers who remind us of the famous couplet of Akbar Allahabaadi calling them as sons of Iblees (Satan)?

Re: # 9

Is it merely the birth of a person that decides his religion? Is it not something more substantial like having faith, and following it in essence at least, if not in practice?

There should be legal age of religion like you have for sex and marriage.

#23, #24

shoresahib, suresahib, you are absolutely right about khan-e-saman not being harem master (i would think of him a chief quarter master general) and many eunuchs being high officials. however, many eunuchs were also part of the harems, and yes they are/were humans but few were/are ``natural``. Actually, the eunuch have a far longer history, even the ancient egyptians raised eunuchs in important positions, so much so that they had their tombs with all their parts embalmed, so that they could enjoy afterlife to the fullest. then their is a great eunuch warrior shikhandi from mahabharat who slayed bhishma.

#20

alas, i was not there, at least i dont remember. i just hope that someone makes a film which shows these important aspects. also will be nice to get a picture of the various karkhanas, huge rabble which followed armies around, ferner mercenary golandaz, irrigation, darshanias, pharmacist who made potions for various reasons, the kitchens, the english stage-coach which shahjehan demanded as a bribe for factory permit in surat.

in short, we should be protesting for the ignorant baroque crap which gets dished out as our mughal history.

Kulharee

OK, i get your point, but the fact is, its not porn or anything, and it is just a film, the film vallahas have added a kiss scene, so what, big deal there is much worse availabale to see with western channels all over the airwaves in India Pakistan that are uncensored.

I just feel its too much a fuss over something trivial, why can the maulanas and shiv sena ppl not fuss over the treatment of raped women or child abuse, something that is worth having a press conference about rather than a silly kiss scene that may offend the sensibilities of an empire long gone?

These holier than thou people are trying to impose some sort of moral policing, and to an extent society does require moral policing but i think sometimes its just overkill, for most of these religious types its just an ego trip trying to cause a lot of fuss over something so non important to make themselves feel good and get a bit of attention, when really in our societies we should be causing a fuss over so many other bigger issues and it is these religious types that should be alerting us and causing the fuss over major abuses in society.

By telling a few film makers that they were wrong to kiss in a film, the shive sena and mullah types have not fulfilled their responsibility to society, they may feel they have `raised the voice of concern` for saving society from a major paap/gunah, but the biggest paapis and gunehgaars are among themselves and no amount of finger pointing at film kisses is going to detract from that.

With men of the cloth, safron, green, or white, comes a lot of responsibility and it encompasses a hell of a lot more than silly press conferences on film kiss scenes or disrupting valentines day celebrations.

The Eunuchs of Delhi, Mughal, Golcanda, Hyderabad, Khanates were not the zunkhas you see on roadsides... These were children raised by the Palace administration to fulfil many roles...

One of which was to protect and guard the Royal women... that would be mothers, daughters, wives, concubines, sons, future kings.....

THe Yeni Cheri of Turkey fulfilled a similar purpose....

In Saffavid and Qajar Iran, In Mughal India, in Fatimid Egypt, and Turkish Sultanates, the Khwaja Siraa performed the important tasks of being palace guards, administrators, The Queer eye for the Emperor, designers, architects, poets, dancers, teachers, poets, etc....


Arent Eunuchs human too, Jang Sahib....

Re: # 19
Khan-e-Saman had nothing to do with the Harem and everything to do with the Treasury...

Khan-e-Saman was a very very High post.....and the British Raj made it that of a Indian butler.....

Re: # 14

Catfischblues has it all confused. The debate is not about whether or not the author enjoys it. But rather, whether he/she is right in saying `I am a muslim, and I dont find anything wrong with the scenes.` That was merely the author`s personal opinion.
He may like it/dislike it/ object to it/ recommend it... thats immaterial. The fact that he gives his instance, as if he is the one who represents Islam... like suggesting that what he does, is what the average muslim does.... is what I object to.
And my dear Cat-whatever-blue: Religion/ science/ faith... these things ARE in black and white. When water is cooled to temperatures at 0 degrees celsius, at atmospheric pressure, it freezes to solid ice.
You either believe that, or you dont.
And so I shall continue with believing in scientific principles as well as religious preachings, unless someone proves them otherwise.

And mind you, if a maulana of your locality, who is also a consumer of all the things you mention, claims to be a practicing muslim, I would`nt buy his words either.

What makes you think I was ranting?

Peace to you too.

Re:# 12
I could,nt agree with Burpinder more,we Indians are a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to sex.. . Talking about sex,hugging,kissing is a taboo... even Sex education in schools is considered `` not a part of our culture`` ,thats strange for a country which has the 2nd highest number of HIV +ve people in the world.

While hip gyrating govinda style bollywood songs and Vulgar ( I would rather prefer a porn movie) music videos are acceptable ,even the SAANS BAHU serials which are regressive to the core are widely watched without a fuss.
I sometimes wonder what our ``culture`` is

Regards
Nandan

jang, you sound as if you were there...

mughals were famous for richness of their harems, full of women, boys and eunuchs from the world over...moorish, uzbek, indian, nubian, habasi, you name it. a great portion of state treasury and an important khan (khans saman) were associated with the harem. if pfizer were an indian company, they would research court physicians annals.

we should organize a protest why akbar khan did not give enough footage to this rich and unparalleled part of mughal life.

Re: # 16

Doordarshan (the government mouthpiece which had a monopoly till the early 90s) used to beam a ``late night feature film`` on Friday 11.30 which had several ``hot``scenes uncensored. Star Movies and other C&S channels routinely beamed R rated (we call them A or 18 in India) films at all times of teh day. But of course it was too good to last, and thanks to the energetic yet utterly clueless Sushma Swaraj and others, we have reached the situation where we are today!

Stuka at # 8:

If some people do it as an exception in public places, it does not mean that society as a whole has adopted the value and is willing to accomodate it.

Malyali porn would only be OK if it can be seen in the open with family members sitting together, otherwise it still is unacceptable.

What would you say if these leaders (Hindus or Muslims does not matter) approach Polictical reps and get the movie, or scenes, of this nature banned? Would that be OK? In that case only the mode of expressing their disagreement by these religious leaders would be condidered incorrect.

Re: # 15

I like that approach a lot. Let’s have adult TV channels on public airways in India beaming 24/7. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

if they dont like it they dont have to watch it!

No one is forcing them!

#9


``If I were in the place of the author, I would rather say, I enjoy nude scenes, and scenes showing lovemaking, though I am a Muslim, BUT would always abstain from calling it the right thing. I consider it is wrong, though a smaller kind of wrong... and hence, not doing much harm. ``

What in the world are you ranting about there??

You really expect a professional journalist in a press conference to say all that rubbish?!
Why are you using the term ‘enjoy’? Your missing the point.

People are different and with Islam containing a diverse number of followers, there will be different opinions. In this day an age, it is possible to be a practicing Muslim and - read carefully here- NOT OBJECT to such scenes. When you do not OBJECT it does not directly imply that one enjoys such scenes of pleasure. Such scenes do not necessarily instigate sexual pleasure for everyone; rather, it is so common now a days that some, if not all are fairly nonchalant. Or, one may not even enjoy such scenes and press fast forward instead, but he/she may not object.

I agree that there is a difference between ascribed faith and practicing it. However, next time in the future, do not assume things to be black and white just because your religion tells you so. It is rude and unfair to imply that the author `enjoys` watching such films because she does not have a problem with it.

And finally, our dear maulana’s , the zenith of ‘practicing Muslims’ are big consumers of prostitution and sexual abuse cases.

Peace...

Re: # 12
You have hit the head right on the head....
Bravo

Its classic South Asian Desi, `` Our mirror has two faces, One we gaze in, and the other shows others how we truly are``


Chuckle.....hugh

Lady Irena is being disingenuous if she claims not to be able to see what could be objectionable to the Muslim board. Her ``breezy tone`` is a facade and one that comes easy to many English-educated, liberal Indians. Usually these are the same people who start sentences with ``India is the land of Kamasutra`` or alternatively ``In early Islamic society, the arts flourished`` or some other such meaningless homily that has no significance in the current context.

``Morality`` and ``decency`` in India are fairly clearly defined these days- nudity is out, porn is out, talking about sex is out, performances of the Vagina monologues definitely out; but bust-heaving, hip-gyrating, cleavage-baring, cheap double entendre, treating women like sex objects is all perfectly kosher. You may not like this, but you`d be a fool to pretend you arn`t aware of it.

Lord Almighty,
WOW....

These Donkeys parading around as Men of the Cloth keeping long beards and moustaches need to be flogged....

Ofcourse not by me.....Where is Shiv Sena when you need it.....

Suhaag Raat or Wasl ki Raat is how our emperors got their Wali-Ehed`s and tons and tons of bastards...


Mughals WERE Westerners!

They were Persians...with central Asian, caucasoid, mongoloid, turkomen, Persian, and indian bloodlines

Have you ever seen portraits of Shah Jahan....He looks like a handsome mediterranean man.... could be Turk, Persian, Italian, Syrian, etc....I mean portraits in Alabaster relief, the divinely beautiful minatures from Padishahnameh.

The Court Atelier of Painters, Calligraphers, preparers of pigments, grinders of gemstones was kept constantly busy to paint important happenings in the lives of the emperors. From birth of ShahJahan`s sons to his annual weighing in gold coins that were to distributed in gold....

One must look at the plate where Shah Jahan recives the persian ambassador Muhammad Ali Beg and notice the similarities between the Persians and the Mughals.....



I havent seen the movie yet but I have seen the stills and studied them in depth. Some of them are quite good for a Bollywood production. Others are a bit hokey...the colors are off... The Mughals sense of Aesthetics was highly developed and very very finely tuned especially after the syncretic reign of His Royal Highness Shahensha-e-Hind Mughal-e-Azam Jalal-ud-din Akbar.

By Shahzadeh Khurram`s ascension to the throne, the Mughal Empire was one of the most powerful in the world... European ambassadors, doctors and jewellers were at the mughal court...There are actual paintings of Europeans being recieved in the Hall of Open Audience ..... One finds the same thing in paintings done in the Hasht-Behesht Palace in Iran where the Great Saffavid Shah of Iran would recieve emissaries from Russia and Northern and western borderlands.........

http://www.history.upenn.edu/coursepages/hist188/list.html

The plates from PadishaNameh can be viewed at the above mentioned link.....One must not copy from this website.. It is the intellectual property of UPenn and rights to display have not been acquired..


One must look at the plate where Shah Jahan is shown honoring Aurengzeb at his wedding...
Notice the clothes women wear....
Notice the Persian rugs.... Not like Akbar khan`s
Notice the Architecture....Mughal, restrained, Marble but not run amok like Rajput architecture from Bikaner Fort etc..

Notice the facial features of the singing girls, the girls playing hand held drums, the men holding the torches....and Candelabras....Notice the fine marble screens and draped with an extremely fine mughal Ghaaleecheh of silk and very high knot count... perhaps 1400-2000 per square inch probably embroided with gemstones and gold wire....

Notice the clothes.... The refinement of fitting on a man`s torso of the Peshvaak, Patka and Chooridaar Payejameh topped off with strands of Basra Pearls and cabochon emeralds, rubies and delicately refined hands of Shah Jahan

A beautiful man with aesthetic sensibilties to match his love for another soul......

If you look at some of the plates you can distinctly tell the various ethnicities apart....

The Rajput Ranas, Sons of the Sun, Sons of the Moon in their colorful turbans and burnished skins... and wrapped in Kashmir paisley shawls with parallel stripes..... a pattern copied to the scottish`s heart content in Paisley, Scotland.


The Afghans are immediately visible.....If you can discern you can see for yourself....

The Turkish Pashas are also visible......clearly

The Persian rugs are also great indicators of their western cultures......

The rug in the plate,`` Jahangir gives Shahjahan a turban`` has roses on it, but not the typical south Asian depiction but a western Iranian depiction of roses as found in rugs from the western most highly Turkish influenced city of Tabriz......



Jahangir sitting on a throne high above the rest with murals depicting the cow and the lion joining heads and sitting together...

Question..?

Did the Film got the required `` controversial attention `` , ... it was more like a publicity hype.

So did they succed or did they failed. !!

Funny thing, when the author says, that he is a muslim and doesnt find anyuthing wrong with the scenes of nudity/lovemaking in the film. It certainly doesnt mean that none of the muslims would find anything wrong. Actually, a muslim person, a believing and a practicing muslim person, would condemn it, for sure.

If someone doesnt stand by the things that Islam preaches, and doesnt stay away from things prohibited, then is he right in calling himself a muslim? Is it merely the birth of a person that decides his religion? Is it not something more substantial like having faith, and following it in essence at least, if not in practice?

If I were in the place of the author, I would rather say, I enjoy nude scenes, and scenes showing lovemaking, though I am a muslim, BUT would always abstain from calling it the right thing. I consider it is wrong, though a smaller kind of wrong... and hence, not doing much harm.

Arrey, if half the Muslim world could object to Satanic Verses without reading the damn thing, why can`t another Muslim not object to a film without seeing it? As a Muslim politician had said back in the day, ``one does not have to bathe in keechad to know it is keechad``. Similarly, you do not have to drink Dom Perignon to know it is fine champagne. The label itself is enough.

Anyways, i liked the writing style and enjoyed the breezy conversationalist tone.

Also, my dear Ahmadzai:

``To a question asked by Oprah on filming a love making scene, Aishwrya Roy, the leading Indian film actress, had said that for Asians, kissing is a very private part of love life, not to be done in the public. ``

Aishwarya Rai should be made to watch 48 hours of Malyali porn for making such a stupid ass statement. She should head to any public park to see the amount of kissing that does take place in India. In Delhi, I would suggest Lodgi Gardens or Buddha Jayanti Park.

``So showing kissing and love making scenes for the consumption of the public should be abhorrable to Hindus and Muslims alike. ``

What is the per capita consumtion of porn amongst Hindus and Muslims?

``If leaders of a community are against specific scene(s), it would perhaps be better for the film makers not to include it so as not to hurt public sentiments. ``

Who makes these idiots leaders in the first place? Their leadery is self styled and a greased pole should be shoved up their bum for their pains.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

To a question asked by Oprah on filming a love making scene, Aishwrya Roy, the leading Indian film actress, had said that for Asians, kissing is a very private part of love life, not to be done in the public.

So showing kissing and love making scenes for the consumption of the public should be abhorrable to Hindus and Muslims alike.

If leaders of a community are against specific scene(s), it would perhaps be better for the film makers not to include it so as not to hurt public sentiments.

Irena

Very interesting but for the contradiction pointed out by Hmzad at #2 which tends to spoils the whole show.

I wonder how will Indian Sikhs react to a movie depicting Moses shoving up his Lathi (stick sweetheart) up Kali’s butt.

I am really surprised (well a little) that Delhi Press Club has that much free time on its hands. Isn’t there anything else going on in Delhi?

Irena:

Maulanas do represent a strong sentiment in the Muslim Indian population. Standards of decency and what is acceptable are changing fast in India for many people, and not just the Muslims.

BTW, since when have the Indian Maulanas swapped their narrow pajamas for salwars?

How do you reconcile the following?

`Since I hadn’t seen the movie,`

“I too am a Muslim, I find nothing wrong in the film.`

Irena my dear, in general skin flicks are considered no-no`s for Muslims, that is those who practice Islam...this business about the actors and whomever also being ``Muslims``, note the quotes, is a bit of sophistry used to deflect an otherwise legit view in the eyes of many Muslims who in fact do care two hoots about their faith...

In Muslim culture, by far and wide...public nudity is a bad thing....get over it.