Kedar Joshi January 5, 2006
#336 Posted by contacheeno on June 22, 2007 4:09:18 pm
It is point that needs to be thought, yes indeed if the gita says that u should do your job even though imperfectly, rather doing some one elses job perfectly, then that would make Shivaji irreligious, according to their own doctrines, what i would like mention at this point of debate is why is Shivaji called the King of Maharashtra? or was it that time Maharashtra, Maharashtra came into existence after independence. and as far as i am concerned Shivaji was no where gutsy enough to enter the areas of Marathwada right upto parbhani or vidharba right upto gadchiroli, he was merely roaming the western maharashtra(not fully) and Kokan, places which suited his combat of guirella warfare, fair enough. But for heavens sake dont name his as King of Maharashtra, he was a small time ruler, who still ended up paying the main rulers the mughals their dues and even requested them many times to entitle him with the tag ``Raja``. he was a ruler in his own right. but if you compare him to the Mughal Emperor, the difference would be as vast as comparing a local corporator or at the most a MLA to the Prime Minister of India, they both are publically chosen agreed, but then there is a vast difference, same was the case if u compare Shivaji or any Mughal Emperor. The whole thing of presenting Shivaji as a Hindu king or Mughals as Muslim rulers is purely waste of time and energy (as far as i am concerned) because i see the tussle between these two merely for power,land,wealth,increase of stature in society. nothing related to religion. Lets us sit back and count how many religious monuments were funded by Shivaji or what did he do to spread Hindu religion outside India? nothing absolutely nothing he was way too busy fighting wars, winning and losing lands.plotting schemes against his own brother Vyankoji Bhonsale by shaking hands with Muslim rulers (now what did suddenly happen to this so called Hindu King?) because does Hindu religion allows you to fight and kill your own real brother (for god`s sake dont mention Pandavas and Kauravas and the MYTH, it is just a Myth no proven records for same are found) so was the case with the Mughal rulers, their sons fought them, and sons imprisoned fathers, AN idiot like Akbar could go on and establish his own religion when he has nothing better to do. so Please dont label them as a Hindu King and Muslim ruler, they were power thisty rulers and nothing else. I am certainly not inspired by them as many of my generation are, because i dont beleive in snatching something which belongs to some one already, not would i attack my own brother for land money and power even though he is my half brother, and certainly not imprison my father for being a King.
#334 Posted by PHOENIX on January 22, 2006 11:15:41 pm
CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ IS ONE OF THE MOST REVERED AND LOVED PERSONALITIES AMONGST THE PEOPLE OF MAHARASHTRA, EVEN TODAY. HE ESTABLISHED THE `HINDAVI SWARAJYA`, NEARLY 400 YEARS AGO, WHICH WAS REPLACED BY THE MARATHA EMPIRE, RUN BY THE PESHWA (PRIME MINISTER). THUS, `HINDAVI SWARAJYA` BECAME PESHWAI, YET THE LOVE AND REVERENCE FOR THE CHHATRAPATI REMAINS THE SAME TODAY. AS A MAHARASHTRIAN, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY:
#1 MAHARASHTRA, DURING SHIVAJI`S TIME WAS RULED BY THREE MAIN POWERS: THE ADILSHAHI OF BIJAPUR, THE NIZAMSHAHI OF AHMADNAGAR AND THE QUTUBSHAHI OF GOLCONDA. THESE POWERS RULED MAHARASHTRA BY FEUDAL SYSTEM i.e. JAGIRS (FIEFS) WERE CONTROLLED BY JAGIRDARS, WHO WERE MOSTLY HINDU MARATHA SARDARS. THEY CARED MORE ABOUT THEIR PLACE IN THE COURTS OF THESE KINGDOMS THAN THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR LANDS. SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED THE `HINDAVI SWARAJ` TO BRING ABOUT A CENTRALISED ADMINISTRATION, THUS ENDING THE FEUDAL SYSTEM.
#2 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED THE `HINDAVI SWARAJYA` (SELF-RULED STATE OF HINDUS:- A VERY LOOSE TRANSLATION), YET THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE SHOWING THAT SHIVAJI MAHARAJ WAS AGAINST ANY RELIGION. HE WAS A STATESMAN, HE PICKED PEOPLE BY QUALITIES, RATHER THAN BY BIRTH. IN FACT, SHIVAJI`S PRIDE, HIS NAVY EMPLOYED A VAST CHUNK OF KOKANASTHA (FROM OR OF KONKAN) MUSLIMS. HIS ARMY CONSISTED OF A FAIR SIZE OF MUSLIMS. HIS FIRST ENEMIES WERE HINDU MARATHA SARDARS. WHEN CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESCAPED FROM HIS AGRA IMPRISONMENT, IT WAS MADARI MEHETER, ONE OF SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S BODYGUARDS, THAT RETURNED THE PRECIOUS SHIV-LING, THAT SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HAD FORGOTTEN. HE HAD WON THE HEARTS AND LOVE OF MUSLIMS, ALSO!
#3 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ UNITED THE DIFFERENT REGIONS OF MAHARASHTRA, UNDER ONE RULE. MAHARASHTRA IS DIVIDED INTO THE FOLLOWING REGIONS:- KONKAN, MARATHWADA, WESTERN MAHARASHTRA (GHAT) AND VIDHARBHA. THOUGH EACH REGION HAS A SEPARATE IDENTITY, THEY WERE UNITED UNDER THE SAME OCHRE BANNER ( NOW USED BY THE SHIV-SENA).
#4 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HAD A PROFOUND RESPECT FOR WOMEN, A SENSE INCULCATED, FROM BIRTH BY HIS MOTHER, JIJABAI (WHO IS MORE COMMONLY KNOWN AS MAASAHEB). HE USED TO `AWARD` THE MOST STRINGEST PUNISHMENTS TO THOSE WHO MOLESTED A WOMAN. THE CHHATRAPATI DID NOT EVEN SPARE HIS OWN SON!
HE USED TO REGARD WOMEN (EXCEPT HIS WIVES) AS EQUIVALENT TO HIS MOTHER AND SISTER. HE USED TO TREAT THEM IN THAT RESPECT, IN WORDS AND COMMITMENT. HE NEVER FAILED TO PUNISH EVEN THE HIGHEST RANKED OFFICER IF THEY SHOWED ANY DISRESPECT TOWARDS ANY WOMAN.
#5 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED A KINGDOM, WITH A HANDFUL MEN, AT THE AGE OF SIXTEEN. AS A RESULT, HE VALUED HIS PEOPLE THE MOST. HE USED TO FEEL DEEPLY, WHEN ANY OF HIS PEOPLE WOULD GET KILLED DURING WAR. HE NEVER FAILED TO GLORIFY HIS MEN. THE LEGENDS LIKE TANAJI MALUSARE, BAJI PRABHU DESHPANDE, FIRANGOJI NARSALA, MURARBAJI, TO NAME A FEW ARE ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE MORE SKILLFUL THAN CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HIMSELF.
HE NAMED THE GHODKHIND PASS AS THE PAVAN (PURE) KHIND, WHEN BAJI DIED FIGHTING, TRYING TO SAVE SHIVAJI`S LIFE. HIS UTTERANCE OF THE WORDS, ``THE FORT IS CAPTURED, BUT THE LION IS DEAD.`` WHEN TANAJI MALUSARE DIED, WHEN TRYING TO CAPTURE A FORT, IN THE MIDST OF THE PREPARATIONS OF HIS SON`S WEDDING SHOWS HIS PROFOUND GRIEF.
#6 HIS MILITARY GENIUS IS TO BE AWED. HE USED TO ROUT HUGE (COMPARED TO HIS FEW HUNDREDS, AN ARMY 50,000-STRONG CAN BE SAID TO BE HUGE) ENEMY ARMIES IN A MATTER OF DAYS, WITH LEAST MINIMAL LOSSES ON HIS SIDE, USING SUPERB GUERILLA TACTICS AND THAT, WITHOUT MUCH FIREARMS. HE ESTABLISHED HIS NAVY, BY DESIGNING HIS OWN WAR-SHIPS. HIS HEALTH ALONE STOPPED HIM FROM MAKING ANY SEA CONQUESTS, HIMSELF.
#7 SHIVAJI MAHARAJ IS LOVED FOR HIS STRENGTHS AS WELL AS HIS WEAKNESSES. HIS STATE OF DEPRESSION AND A LACK OF ADEQUATE PUNISHMENT TO HIS SON, SAMBHAJI, WHEN HE JOINED THE MUGHALS IS WELL KNOWN. HE HAD LITTLE TIME FOR HIS FAMILLY. HE TRIED TO BALANCE HIS LIFE AS A RULER AND AS A FAMILY MAN.
SWAMI RAMDAS ONCE SAID OF SHIVAJI MAHARAJ, THAT HE WAS A `SHRIMAN YOGI` - A PERSON WHO WORKS FOR THE WELFARE OF THE WORLD, YET IS UNDER THE EVERYDAY CONSTRAINTS OF A FAMILY MAN.
#8 THE GREATEST SIGN OF A MAN`S EXISTENCE IS HOW HIS PEOPLE CARRY HIS IDEALS FORWARD, AFTER HIS DEATH. CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ`S UNTIMELY DEATH, PLUNGED THE FLEDGLING MARATHA KINGDOM INTO TOTAL CONFUSION. WITH THE MURDER OF SAMBHAJI, NO DEFINITE LEADER, AND THE MUGHAL EMPEROR, HIMSELF, LEADING THE WHOLE OF THE ONE MILLION-STRONG MUGHAL ARMY, WITH ALL AVAILABLE RESOURCES, THE SOLE INSPIRATION FOR THE LONE MARATHA WAS CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S AMBITION AND THE LOVE FOR HIS PEOPLE, THAT LED HIM TO CARVE OUT A SEPARATE IDENTITY FOR HIS PEOPLE, PRIMARILY IN THEIR OWN HEARTS, THEN A PERMANENT PLACE IN THE HISTORY OF INDIA. AFTER TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF FIGHTING, THE NEW MARATHA EMPIRE WAS BORN.
CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S TALES ARE A PART OF THE LOCAL FOLKLORE. IN VILLAGES, EVEN TODAY, SONGS, PLAYS AND STORIES ARE POPULAR. I FEEL THE HUMBLEST WHENEVER I THINK OF THE LEGEND, HIS PERSONA.
#1 MAHARASHTRA, DURING SHIVAJI`S TIME WAS RULED BY THREE MAIN POWERS: THE ADILSHAHI OF BIJAPUR, THE NIZAMSHAHI OF AHMADNAGAR AND THE QUTUBSHAHI OF GOLCONDA. THESE POWERS RULED MAHARASHTRA BY FEUDAL SYSTEM i.e. JAGIRS (FIEFS) WERE CONTROLLED BY JAGIRDARS, WHO WERE MOSTLY HINDU MARATHA SARDARS. THEY CARED MORE ABOUT THEIR PLACE IN THE COURTS OF THESE KINGDOMS THAN THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR LANDS. SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED THE `HINDAVI SWARAJ` TO BRING ABOUT A CENTRALISED ADMINISTRATION, THUS ENDING THE FEUDAL SYSTEM.
#2 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED THE `HINDAVI SWARAJYA` (SELF-RULED STATE OF HINDUS:- A VERY LOOSE TRANSLATION), YET THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE SHOWING THAT SHIVAJI MAHARAJ WAS AGAINST ANY RELIGION. HE WAS A STATESMAN, HE PICKED PEOPLE BY QUALITIES, RATHER THAN BY BIRTH. IN FACT, SHIVAJI`S PRIDE, HIS NAVY EMPLOYED A VAST CHUNK OF KOKANASTHA (FROM OR OF KONKAN) MUSLIMS. HIS ARMY CONSISTED OF A FAIR SIZE OF MUSLIMS. HIS FIRST ENEMIES WERE HINDU MARATHA SARDARS. WHEN CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESCAPED FROM HIS AGRA IMPRISONMENT, IT WAS MADARI MEHETER, ONE OF SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S BODYGUARDS, THAT RETURNED THE PRECIOUS SHIV-LING, THAT SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HAD FORGOTTEN. HE HAD WON THE HEARTS AND LOVE OF MUSLIMS, ALSO!
#3 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ UNITED THE DIFFERENT REGIONS OF MAHARASHTRA, UNDER ONE RULE. MAHARASHTRA IS DIVIDED INTO THE FOLLOWING REGIONS:- KONKAN, MARATHWADA, WESTERN MAHARASHTRA (GHAT) AND VIDHARBHA. THOUGH EACH REGION HAS A SEPARATE IDENTITY, THEY WERE UNITED UNDER THE SAME OCHRE BANNER ( NOW USED BY THE SHIV-SENA).
#4 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HAD A PROFOUND RESPECT FOR WOMEN, A SENSE INCULCATED, FROM BIRTH BY HIS MOTHER, JIJABAI (WHO IS MORE COMMONLY KNOWN AS MAASAHEB). HE USED TO `AWARD` THE MOST STRINGEST PUNISHMENTS TO THOSE WHO MOLESTED A WOMAN. THE CHHATRAPATI DID NOT EVEN SPARE HIS OWN SON!
HE USED TO REGARD WOMEN (EXCEPT HIS WIVES) AS EQUIVALENT TO HIS MOTHER AND SISTER. HE USED TO TREAT THEM IN THAT RESPECT, IN WORDS AND COMMITMENT. HE NEVER FAILED TO PUNISH EVEN THE HIGHEST RANKED OFFICER IF THEY SHOWED ANY DISRESPECT TOWARDS ANY WOMAN.
#5 CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ ESTABLISHED A KINGDOM, WITH A HANDFUL MEN, AT THE AGE OF SIXTEEN. AS A RESULT, HE VALUED HIS PEOPLE THE MOST. HE USED TO FEEL DEEPLY, WHEN ANY OF HIS PEOPLE WOULD GET KILLED DURING WAR. HE NEVER FAILED TO GLORIFY HIS MEN. THE LEGENDS LIKE TANAJI MALUSARE, BAJI PRABHU DESHPANDE, FIRANGOJI NARSALA, MURARBAJI, TO NAME A FEW ARE ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE MORE SKILLFUL THAN CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ HIMSELF.
HE NAMED THE GHODKHIND PASS AS THE PAVAN (PURE) KHIND, WHEN BAJI DIED FIGHTING, TRYING TO SAVE SHIVAJI`S LIFE. HIS UTTERANCE OF THE WORDS, ``THE FORT IS CAPTURED, BUT THE LION IS DEAD.`` WHEN TANAJI MALUSARE DIED, WHEN TRYING TO CAPTURE A FORT, IN THE MIDST OF THE PREPARATIONS OF HIS SON`S WEDDING SHOWS HIS PROFOUND GRIEF.
#6 HIS MILITARY GENIUS IS TO BE AWED. HE USED TO ROUT HUGE (COMPARED TO HIS FEW HUNDREDS, AN ARMY 50,000-STRONG CAN BE SAID TO BE HUGE) ENEMY ARMIES IN A MATTER OF DAYS, WITH LEAST MINIMAL LOSSES ON HIS SIDE, USING SUPERB GUERILLA TACTICS AND THAT, WITHOUT MUCH FIREARMS. HE ESTABLISHED HIS NAVY, BY DESIGNING HIS OWN WAR-SHIPS. HIS HEALTH ALONE STOPPED HIM FROM MAKING ANY SEA CONQUESTS, HIMSELF.
#7 SHIVAJI MAHARAJ IS LOVED FOR HIS STRENGTHS AS WELL AS HIS WEAKNESSES. HIS STATE OF DEPRESSION AND A LACK OF ADEQUATE PUNISHMENT TO HIS SON, SAMBHAJI, WHEN HE JOINED THE MUGHALS IS WELL KNOWN. HE HAD LITTLE TIME FOR HIS FAMILLY. HE TRIED TO BALANCE HIS LIFE AS A RULER AND AS A FAMILY MAN.
SWAMI RAMDAS ONCE SAID OF SHIVAJI MAHARAJ, THAT HE WAS A `SHRIMAN YOGI` - A PERSON WHO WORKS FOR THE WELFARE OF THE WORLD, YET IS UNDER THE EVERYDAY CONSTRAINTS OF A FAMILY MAN.
#8 THE GREATEST SIGN OF A MAN`S EXISTENCE IS HOW HIS PEOPLE CARRY HIS IDEALS FORWARD, AFTER HIS DEATH. CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ`S UNTIMELY DEATH, PLUNGED THE FLEDGLING MARATHA KINGDOM INTO TOTAL CONFUSION. WITH THE MURDER OF SAMBHAJI, NO DEFINITE LEADER, AND THE MUGHAL EMPEROR, HIMSELF, LEADING THE WHOLE OF THE ONE MILLION-STRONG MUGHAL ARMY, WITH ALL AVAILABLE RESOURCES, THE SOLE INSPIRATION FOR THE LONE MARATHA WAS CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S AMBITION AND THE LOVE FOR HIS PEOPLE, THAT LED HIM TO CARVE OUT A SEPARATE IDENTITY FOR HIS PEOPLE, PRIMARILY IN THEIR OWN HEARTS, THEN A PERMANENT PLACE IN THE HISTORY OF INDIA. AFTER TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF FIGHTING, THE NEW MARATHA EMPIRE WAS BORN.
CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJA`S TALES ARE A PART OF THE LOCAL FOLKLORE. IN VILLAGES, EVEN TODAY, SONGS, PLAYS AND STORIES ARE POPULAR. I FEEL THE HUMBLEST WHENEVER I THINK OF THE LEGEND, HIS PERSONA.
#333 Posted by bolta_aaina on January 17, 2006 4:37:22 am
baap ney mari maindaki,
aur beta teerandaaz
,
#331 Posted by MantoLives on January 15, 2006 11:15:58 pm
I knew that you could not take a counter-argument for all your claims of ``Indian democracy``
#329 Posted by bolta_aaina on January 14, 2006 8:55:49 pm
#327
You are right. But it is still a long way to go people start looking each other as Humans or Insaans.
Till such time even if we can become Good-to-others Hindus, Good-to-others Muslims, Good-to-others Christians etc., it will be a big deal.
You are right. But it is still a long way to go people start looking each other as Humans or Insaans.
Till such time even if we can become Good-to-others Hindus, Good-to-others Muslims, Good-to-others Christians etc., it will be a big deal.
#328 Posted by guru on January 13, 2006 11:10:20 am
Nishchaya-cha MahaMeru == Man with Himalayan Determination
Bahut Janaasi Adharu == Who Empowered Multitude
Janata Raja! == Wise Leader
.-
Sant Swami Samarth Raamdas (bramhin by birth)
You will see this witing on Pune Airport, Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus and Airport in Mumbai. The reasons for this depiction
by a saintly sanyasi are plenty.
Shivaji`s social contributions are tremendous, eg,
Bahut Janaasi Adharu == Who Empowered Multitude
Janata Raja! == Wise Leader
.-
Sant Swami Samarth Raamdas (bramhin by birth)
You will see this witing on Pune Airport, Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus and Airport in Mumbai. The reasons for this depiction
by a saintly sanyasi are plenty.
Shivaji`s social contributions are tremendous, eg,
- caste divisions are minimal in Maharashtra compared to rest of India - so you see
- Dalit Shushilkumar Shinde as Chief Minister in 90s and also few dalit deputy chief ministers from 70s,
- Ambedkar`s education sponsored by Maratha sardar Sayaji and Chatrapati Shahu,
- Satya Shodhak Samaaj established in 19th century for removing caste division and education of lower castes and women.
- Muslim minority is more integrated compared to rest of India . You see
- Muslim Antulay can be a Chief Minister in mid seventies,
- Muslim Satya Shodhak Samaaj of Dalwai,
- Chatrapati Shahu Maharaj Kolhapur descendent of Shivaji, a Sanskrit scholar establishing hostels for Muslims in 1910s so that they attend highschools and colleges,
- Shivaji was against feudalism. He never gave watans (land titles) to his Sardars or Army officials. Watangiri the way it was practiced by Rajputs, Mughals, southern Muslim kingdoms and later by British made large portion of masses kandless. That is why cooperative movement cpuld happen in Mqaharashtra, atleast in western , central part of it. Cooperative movement has made tremendous dent in rural poverty in Maharashtra. There is some parallel to west Punjab because of Khalsa of Gurugovindsingh.
- Treatment of women is much better in Shivaki`s rule - he was a Mama`s boy, episode such as daughter-in-law of Kalyan`s Subhedar, cutting of legs of a Patil who molested a girl
#327 Posted by tahmed32 on January 13, 2006 6:53:58 am
bolta aina: Your sentiments are good. However, in calling for ``muslim (hindu etc.) ho to aisa ho``, you are still speaking from within the ``religion box``. Why not ``insaan ho to aisa ho``??
We need to stop putting brand names on people like hindu/muslim, kala/gora, pakistani/ indian, single-headed/double-headed (OK, scratch the last one, I just go carried away) and start looking at them as generic human beings.
Notice how closely the term ``muslim ho to aisa ho`` sounds like something you would hear with a jingle during the commercial break??If we can see through the ``brand name`` advertizing in drugs, why do we have so much difficulty in seeing through the ``brand name`` advertizing for people??
We need to stop putting brand names on people like hindu/muslim, kala/gora, pakistani/ indian, single-headed/double-headed (OK, scratch the last one, I just go carried away) and start looking at them as generic human beings.
Notice how closely the term ``muslim ho to aisa ho`` sounds like something you would hear with a jingle during the commercial break??If we can see through the ``brand name`` advertizing in drugs, why do we have so much difficulty in seeing through the ``brand name`` advertizing for people??
#326 Posted by MantoLives on January 13, 2006 1:26:01 am
My dear friend,
Durand Line agreement between the British Empire and the Afghan Kingdom constitutes an international treaty agreement and Article 62 of the Vienna Convention applies to it. Please feel free to produce a legal opinion contrary to this by any jurist who has considered the matter.
The only Musharrafism I see here is yours... that is given your definition of Musharrafism.
#325 Posted by bolta_aaina on January 13, 2006 12:57:06 am
#324 MANTOLIVES
I do not wish to discuss the matter further thats one thing.
By ``Musharaffism``, I dont mean illegality of something. By ``Musharaffism``, I mean whatever-I-have-said-is right attitude. If you watch any interview of Musharaff, he works on this principle only. Whatever-I-am-saying-is-right-rest-everything-is-false.
Now you have brought Vienna Convention into picture without ascertaining whether it is applicable to a treaty signed in 1893. First of all it is not applicable. Article-4 clearly states that the Convention applies only to treaties which are concluded by States after the entry into force of the present Convention with regard to such States..
Further, Vienna Convention amply describes what is termed as a ``treaty`` and which laws and practices govern a treaty as defined in Vienna Convention, which you are completely ignoring.
Article-62 which you are so fond of quoting again and agian will be applicable if and only if the Durand Line Agreement meets the definition of ``Treaty`` as defined in Vienna Convention, otherwise not.
I am closing the chapter here. Please dont reply to this post. I`ll not be responding.
I do not wish to discuss the matter further thats one thing.
By ``Musharaffism``, I dont mean illegality of something. By ``Musharaffism``, I mean whatever-I-have-said-is right attitude. If you watch any interview of Musharaff, he works on this principle only. Whatever-I-am-saying-is-right-rest-everything-is-false.
Now you have brought Vienna Convention into picture without ascertaining whether it is applicable to a treaty signed in 1893. First of all it is not applicable. Article-4 clearly states that the Convention applies only to treaties which are concluded by States after the entry into force of the present Convention with regard to such States..
Further, Vienna Convention amply describes what is termed as a ``treaty`` and which laws and practices govern a treaty as defined in Vienna Convention, which you are completely ignoring.
Article-62 which you are so fond of quoting again and agian will be applicable if and only if the Durand Line Agreement meets the definition of ``Treaty`` as defined in Vienna Convention, otherwise not.
I am closing the chapter here. Please dont reply to this post. I`ll not be responding.
#324 Posted by MantoLives on January 12, 2006 9:53:55 pm
Bolta Aina,
Looks like you have never read a single law book in your life let alone know anything about international law. You don`t understand legal language and you choose to abuse me with terms like ``Musharrafism``... I take Musharrafism to mean illegality which is the basis of your entire bankrupt argument.
The Article 62 of the Vienna Convention (which means that a successor state inherits territorial obligations and rights of the preceding state).. protects the sanctity of the Durand Line.... whether you like it or not... or else why don`t you use your good offices to advocate the contrary to the Afghan Government... Pakistan accepts the ICJ jurisdiction... surely Afghanistan would have taken up the matter there had it thought it to be wise...
Please bring an opinion contrary to this by any jurist, lawyer or judge .... On another note- please note how easily the ``United Hindustan`` advocates are ready to barter away NWFP to Afghanistan... same old Gandhian hypocrisy.
Looks like you have never read a single law book in your life let alone know anything about international law. You don`t understand legal language and you choose to abuse me with terms like ``Musharrafism``... I take Musharrafism to mean illegality which is the basis of your entire bankrupt argument.
The Article 62 of the Vienna Convention (which means that a successor state inherits territorial obligations and rights of the preceding state).. protects the sanctity of the Durand Line.... whether you like it or not... or else why don`t you use your good offices to advocate the contrary to the Afghan Government... Pakistan accepts the ICJ jurisdiction... surely Afghanistan would have taken up the matter there had it thought it to be wise...
Please bring an opinion contrary to this by any jurist, lawyer or judge .... On another note- please note how easily the ``United Hindustan`` advocates are ready to barter away NWFP to Afghanistan... same old Gandhian hypocrisy.
#323 Posted by bolta_aaina on January 12, 2006 8:38:21 pm
#321 SALIM BHAI/ TAHMED SAHIB/OTHERS
It is high time that we break our shells and come out free. ``Holier than Thou`` attitude should be abandoned. it is still premature for us to leave religions but Let us try to become role models for each others. Let us individually try to become something that others say ``Muslim ho to aisa`` or ``Hindu ho to aisa`` or ``Sikh ho to aisa``.
Its not a big deal deal. A small amount of honesty, integrity ,humanity and brotherhood will do.
It is high time that we break our shells and come out free. ``Holier than Thou`` attitude should be abandoned. it is still premature for us to leave religions but Let us try to become role models for each others. Let us individually try to become something that others say ``Muslim ho to aisa`` or ``Hindu ho to aisa`` or ``Sikh ho to aisa``.
Its not a big deal deal. A small amount of honesty, integrity ,humanity and brotherhood will do.
#322 Posted by tahmed32 on January 12, 2006 3:19:39 pm
#321 on that good note... #32 wishes ``hindu, muslim, sikh, eesaee, sub ko mera salaam`` :-)
#321 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 12, 2006 11:40:28 am
#320, Tahmed32 {``The important thing is that we have an objective standard to measure such issues against. And - if one`s goal is the welfare of man and not the welfare of God (who I am sure does not need man to write him welfare checks)``}
Tahmed Sahib the Great :)
Couldn`t agree more. Thanks for finally getting us to what is important - The welfare of man (and woman :) )
Tahmed Sahib the Great :)
Couldn`t agree more. Thanks for finally getting us to what is important - The welfare of man (and woman :) )
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