Shivaji -- Portrait of the King as Barbarian

[URL=http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=durrandline6ub.gif][IMG]http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3933/durrandline6ub.th.gif[/IMG][/URL]

Other forum members may visit the following URL,the official website of Afghanistan for more on Durand Line and Afghanistan stand on it :-

http://www.afghanistans.com/Information/History/Durandline.htm

#233 MANTOLIVES

Ek ney kahi, dusrey ne mani,
Guru Nanak kahain, dono Gyani.

Be happy with the words and their meanings.

Does the Vienna Convention covers all the treaties signed by human beings since times immemorial?

Even a sadak-chaap lawyer will tell you that agreements between two parties cease to exist when one of the parties cease to exist. The agreements are not automatically transferred to the successors until & unless they are ratified by both the parties. If you sign an agreement with my father and my father dies ,you are free either to continue that agreement with me i.e. his son and successor or get the agreement terminated. Legally, I cannot force you to continue that agreement which my father had signed with you. It is also the other way round. I am also not oblidged to honour any agreement which my father made with anybody in which I am not a signatory. Of course, if there are any dues to be paid to you, that I will have to pay only if I become a successor to my father. If my father dies penniless and there is nothing to succeed, I am not oblidged to pay the dues out of my own earnings. I will pay the dues only from that which I have inherited from my father.

Similarly, in case of Durand Line, when British had ceased to exist, it is upto Afghanistan now to continue that agreement with the successor state i.e. Pakistan or not. So far, as far as I understand, no such written agreement has been signed by A`tan and P`tan.

SO YOUR OCCUPATION OF AREAS COVERED UNDER DURAND LINE IS ILLEGAL.

Now from where this hundred years business has come from. For your information the term of Hundred Years for any agreement is not without any basis. It is an accepted judicial procedure worldover. After the end of colonialism after World War-II and emergence of independent states, it was indeed a point that the colonialists had signed many agreements with the natives from time to time which run in perpetuity. Because, they did not have any time frame as to when they will elapse. An agreement in perpetuity ,even today, is illegal. It should have atleast a line that this agreement will remain in force till the signatories agree to do so.

So to kill the agreements signed by the colonialists with the natives legally, the duration of 100 years was introduced in the Judicial procedure. That means, if the agreement does not have a time frame, it will automatically terminate after 100 Years.

#241 SALIM BHAI

``If we can stop tagging Indians as heroes or villains, then I submit, why the constant drum beats of declaring Shivaji a great hero for fighting Aurangzeb?``

I agree with with you. It is not proper to brandish Shivaji as a hero and Aurangzeb as the villian. If we have guts, lets call Aurangzeb-Shivaji conflict as Avadh-Maratha Conflict or more precisely Jai Singh-Shivaji conflict, which is the true picture.

When you have raised the question here, let me tell you another version of Aurangzeb-Shivaji Conflict which was prevalent in Avadh at one point of time. You can call this as a folklore. How far this version is correct, I cannot say because it does not appear in any of the authoritative accounts of Aurangzeb-Shivaji history. But it was prevalent as a the hear-say in Avadh at one point of time, though now it has faded for obvious political reasons.

Aurangzeb had spent his prime-time fighting in Deccan and he was quite aware that it is very difficult to fight in rough and mountaineous terrains. He ,himslef, was not very keen for having a fight with Shivaji because he knew will be very difficult to defeat him in the mountains. He, instead, wanted to have a truce with Shivaji. But Raja Jai Singh, the proudy Rajput, instigated Aurangzeb to attack Shivaji saying that he will be cowed down in no time. Aurangzeb agreed and he sent Raja Jai Singh to fight with Shivaji. The war ended without any decisive victory. Then Raja Jai Singh persuaded Shivaji to visit Agra to sign a treaty with Aurangzeb. On the other hand ,Jai Singh told Aurangzeb that Shivaji has conceded his defeat and he is coming to Agra for signing the truce agreement. When both i.e. Aurangzeb and Shivaji were face to face, both of them thought that they were the victors. This resulted in ego clash between them and Shivaji was subsequently imprisoned. It is also said that when Aurangzeb came to know of the facts, he intentionally became complacent so that Shivaji could flee from the prison.

#231 MANTOLIVES

``As ferozk pointed out a few months ago on another board- Pakistan and Afghanistan have indeed agreed to accept the Durand Line as the permanent border by agreement. ``

No Sir, there has not been any agreement or atleast written agreement between Pakistan and Afganistan regarding Durand Line, as far as my little knowledge goes. Afghanistan still maintains that they had signed Durand Line Agreement with the British under duress in 1893 and they no more accept it. The only thing they are not in the position today to wrest from Pakistan forcefully.

I assure you Sir, that as & when Afghanistan is in a position to wrest it forcefully, it will do it without blinking an eyelid.

#253 dm ``I was merely saying that Hindus and Muslims in general have different perspectives on Indian history.``

It need not be so if one is interested in learning the truth, and so does not ignore facts that run counter to one`s views. Let me use a chowk favorite as an example: Gandhi vs. Jinnah.

I have always expressed appreciation for both, and for very specific reasons. It doesnt matter to me that Gandhi was a hindu and Jinnah was a muslim. Going further back in history, I can find all kinds of things to appreciate in every single group: I wrote an article once on the ancient harrappan civilization on chowk. The fact that they were not muslims was totally irrelevant. I could go on. Why do you think that as a hindu (or as sikh or whatever) you are bound to see things differently than me when it comes to muslims? (and please dont tell me that they were invaders - the british were invaders too, and i think they were the best thing that happened to India by any objective standard). Surely one can have the confidence to see things objectively.

Guru Nanak was deeply influenced by the sufi saint Baba Farid. When the Adi Granth was compiled by the fifth Guru of the Sikhs, Guru Arjun Dev Ji, Farid’s ‘slokas’ were given the place of honour along with those of Kabir, Ramdev and Guru Ravidas.
Baba Sheikh Farid had been in the 12th & 13th centuries, a great intellectual, unique renunciat, perfect ascetic and committed devotee of the Timeless Lord who communicated to the common folk the revealed divine message through the medium of sweet, soothing Punjabi language. One of the greatest virtues of his life was his love and sympathy for entire mankind. His heart felt pain of oppression perpetuated by the Muslim invaders in the name of religion. He tried to put balm on the hurt psyche of the people through the medium of sweet, soothing words so that the adverse impact caused by excesses of the orthodox Muslims to the image of Islam could be neutralised. Such an act on the part of someone was required for the revival of the feeling of fraternity amongst mankind. The unique humanitarian values of compassion, love, sympathy, mutual understanding and appreciation are clothed in the hymns of Farid as fragrance is in flowers. For his sweet words, sweet ideals and sweet behaviour, Farid became known as an epitome of Sweetness (Shakarganj] is full name was Sheikh Farid ud-din Maund Ganj-I-Shakar.
Farid occupies a place of pre-eminence among the Punjabi poets. During his lifetime, wherever he went, whomever he conversed with, could not but be influenced by the high, pious and divine ideas of Farid. So much do that Raja Gokul Dev changed the name of his capital town to Faridkot in honour of this great Sufi saint.
Sheikh Farid was a disciple of Khwaja Bakhtiar Kaki, the disciple & spiritual successor of Hazrat Ali who had received spiritual training from Hasan Basri; a known saint of Chishti traditon. His father, Sheikh Jala ud-din Suleman, was descendant of the second Calipha of Islam. According to a historian, Farid was related to the Royal family of emporer Farakhshal of Kabul, but the family was uprooted due to the invasions by Changez He continued preaching his message throughout his life, and at last breathed his last in AD 1266 at Pak Patan, earliar known by the name Ajodhan.

When I say ``borrowed from Arabic by Punjabi`` ...I mean Punjabi or prior languages spoken in the region.

Salim, Rabb is clearly a generic term for God borrowed from Arabic by Punjabi probably few milleniums ago. Most sikhs in social context in common speech use the word Rabb for God. I believe Rabb is probably most used for God in Punjab than other words (for God). Sikh scriptures also used Rabb but many times less than any other word used for God in Sikh scriptures like Waheguru, Parmatma, Ishwar, Khuda, Karta-purkh,Bhagwan, Ram, Pritam, Rachanhaar, Daata, Prabhu etc. I don`t remember Khalis used for God anywhere, I don;t think it is. Sahib(a) is used for God and also for Guru but it seems mostly used where poetically effective or appropriate. Another Arabic origin designation used in scripture is Khalq..mostly by Baba Farid, Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak.

BTW Rabb is as Islamic as jhatka kukkaR.:).

Just one question regarding Islamic influence on Sikhism.

Sikhs use rab, sahib, khalis, and other words of Arabic origin. Is this due to language or is there a religious connection?

#254 DM ji I was refering to some other comment made on Nanak being influenced by Islam made on the board.(unless I posted on wrong board).

#260, AlephNull {``OTOH, ‘Alif Lam Meem’ at the head of many Quranic suras may just be the familiar aum/om. ``}

ALeph,
That`s very interesting. I never even thought of that. Actually, I was taught that the three ltetters ALIF LAAM MEEM stand for something but that is no longer known and a mystery. Maybe you have a point there.

I still contend that the phonetic similarity in the sound of Brahma and Abraham is no coincidence. There has to be much more than what we know.

Salim #259

I would guess not – the phonetic similarity could be pure happenstance, like Rama/Ramzan. Those names are from different language families (IE vs Semitic). It would help to look at the etymologies (real or claimed) of those names in Sanskrit and Hebrew/Arabic.

OTOH, ‘Alif Lam Meem’ at the head of many Quranic suras may just be the familiar aum/om. There you have a similarity in likely intended function over and above the correspondence in spelling and sound.

#258, Meander is probably the Greek name for that river. In Turkey, it`s call Mendereez.
Thank you for the connection to Indra and Andros. That makes sense.

BTW, on a different topic, is there any connection between Brahma and ABraham? The sounds are too similar to be coincidental.

Salim #257

{{Is there a connection between Greek names like Alexander, Meander, and the Sikh/Hindu names ending in der - Narinder, Rajinder, Dharminder, Bhupinder?}}

Perhaps you meant Menander, not Meander. The Meander was (is?) a windy river in the land of your claimed current domicile.

There very likely is a connection of sorts at the level of Indo-European cognates. The common Punjabi names you’ve listed are of the form prefix + ‘inder’. Now the name of the Vedic god Indra is supposed to be cognate with the Greek ‘andros’ (man) that appears as a suffix in a few Greek names.

Incidentally, there was an Indo-Greek king called Menander whose domains included Bactria and present-day Pakistani Punjab. He appears to have adopted Buddhism and enters Indian tradition as Milinda; he figures in the Buddhist religious work Milindapanho (“Questions of King Milinda”). The name Milind is in occasional use among Indians today – the ones I’ve known were all Maharashtrians. That name may perhaps originate from Menander.

DM Sahib, #253.
Yes. This departure from attaching names to religion is a welcome change. Iranians were not ashamed to use their own names even after accepting Islam. I have noticed that Hindus use Mona (which is common among Christians and Muslims in Middle East).

BTW, DM Sahib,
Is there a connection between Greek names like Alexander, Meander, and the Sikh/Hindu names ending in der - Narinder, Rajinder, Dharminder, Bhupinder?