Shivaji -- Portrait of the King as Barbarian

An interesting counter-perspective...

Can you please comment on why Jawaharlal Nehru called Shivaji a great freedom fighting hero against foreign invaders... Who were the foreign invaders? Was Aurangzeb, Islamist as he was, a foreign invader but his father and great grandfather are often championed by the Indians as great ``Indian`` rulers ... is Taj Mahal by that token a monument constucted by ``foreign invaders``... this has often confused me.

While Kedar Joshi is entitled to his opinion, and so is everybody else, the least he as well as editor could have done is to tell readers at chowk that this was not an article but simply a cut-and-paste from selective assorted sources.

If this was even a middle-school essay, Kedar would have been asked to write it again, with some attempt at putting some original and balanced research in it.

If this was supposed to be research, then Kedar is well advised to seek out the meaning of the word before trying to present only one side of a re-determined position.

And if it was an attempt to start a flame/war on chowk, well, achieved! The Editor needs to be complimented if that was the aim.

Kedar

Good to see you here. Last couple of days I have been thinking of the various ways in which Christianity as a doctrine to live by is superior to Hinduism. We may be able to discuss that and other things. Best regards.

unkill veeru`s pants are on fire haha

The stress here was the word ``barbaric``...............sure he was `barbaric` compared to the liberal democratic governments with modern civil laws of today...................but compared to the sunni Islamist Aurengzeb he may be rated as a `normal` despotic ruler of the pre-modern ages.................the fact is that without exception ALL.......I repeat.........ALL.............ancient rulers, nawabs, rajas and zamidars were despotic and hence BARBARIC...........the fact is that there were no GOLDEN Rules in any hoary traditions..........read the old testament, aHadith, Ramayana, Mahabharata or Tripitakas..........it is all full of BARABARIC and despotic rulers who chopped hands, threw persons in molten liquids and slayed at showing disrespect..............the fact is that the modern view of imprisonment with stress over confinement and reformation is a current view of justice...........ALL the ancient (and hence barbaric by default) civilizations believed in Retribution and deterrence through severest punishments................go into the dungean of the christian kings and barons.........you would find a great assortment of torture machines.........

the so called `barbaric` actions today were the most accepted norms of the pre-modern states...........

Stupid article. But not as stupid as the modern day Marathas who burnt the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute so precious records that could effectively rebut this piece of filth were destroyed.

But let every patriotic and Nationalistic Hindu join me and say ``Hindu Dharam Rakshak Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ki jai``

``Hindu Dharam Rakshak Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj ki jai``

Interesting perspective, considering Shivaji himself called his kingdom as `Hindavi Rajya` and not `Hindu Rajya` / `Ram Rajya`. Big difference.

Manto,
There is nothing interesting in your counter perspective. The point you raise has already been extensively debated (for more than a week) on chowk and things were explained to you and you seemingly accepted the explaination given to you by me and others. I will track down the link of that whole discussion for you so as to not waste time in rehashing old points.

looks like quite a lot of religious `barbarian` Aurangzeb had rubbed on the `irreligious barbarian` Shiva ji.......:)

Never seen nor heard any Indian ever before in my life quote the Gita to ``prove`` that a so-called Shudra is ``irreligious`` or ``dishonest`` for being a king.

The Brahmins who carried out ceremonies for Shivaji, by your logic all irreligious and dishonest as well.

Let us go back in time. Valmiki was a dacoit and not a Brahmin - was he irreligious for writing the Ramayana and Hindus irreligious and dishonest for regarding the Valmiki Ramayana as a holy book?

Vyasa, a mythological or real person, was the illegitimate son of a fisherwoman. He reorganised the Vedas and became known as Veda Vyasa - was he irreligious and dishonest too? His fisherwoman mother who had borne him out of wedlock, later married an emperor and became empress (and great grandmother of the Kauravas and Pandavas)- does it follow that she was irreligious and dishonest?


The Mahabharata dating from B.C. or early A.D has instances of the so-called writ being disregarded including those mentioned above. Let us call the writers of the Mahabharata dishonest. btw, the Yaksha Prashna which Yudhishthira had to answer in the Mahabharata had the Yaksha asking ``King, how does one become a Brahmin: by birth?character? study of the Vedas? education? Tell me precisely.`` To which Yudhishthira replies ``Listen, Yaksha, it is neither birth nor education, nor even the study of the Vedas. Without doubt, it is character alone that marks a Brahmin. `` There goes Dharmaraja Yudhishthira`s honesty(and the Yaksha`s too, as it accepted his answer).


Varnas were not static even in recent history - for example the first in the current royal lineage of Gwalior? or Jaipur or both were said to be so-called Shudras. Ahirs who ruled over large areas of Haryana-Rajasthan-Western UP as kings at one time were grazing communities like today`s Yadavs (or they were predecessors of today`s Yadavs). Whole communities and individuals would change their existing varna status if circumstances allowed it - India was a vast land of many migrations and changing power equations.

Has the author considered the possibility that writs regarding varna were not meant to be immutable for all time..?

Many Hindus have historically taken it that way. In 1936 the Maharajah of Travancore declared the Temple Entry Proclamation which allowed the ``avarna`` Dalits to enter temples in his kingdom. Were he and his priests irreligious for throwing away the so-called ritual purity of temple confines? Today Dalits are being trained as temple priests. Are they and the people training/hiring them defying the Gita and being irreligious and dishonest? The present Chief Minister ruling Maharashtra is Dalit in origin, are you saying he is irreligious and dishonest too?

According to your logic all of the above starting from Valmiki who challenged it are irreligious and dishonest including Shivaji. It is quite interesting to see a chowk writer trying to impose a varna writ in 2006.

Dunno if the esteemed chowk editors know their heads from their behinds on this one. I remember featured writing here stating that the Kumbh Mela is a mass sexual orgy. Given that all so-called varnas mix freely at the Kumbh Mela (which Hindus attend to attain moksha) makes it pretty irreligious too, no?

“The Marathas are the inhabitants of Maharashtra...Aside from a Brahmin minority- among whom the Chitpawans are best known as the providers of the Peshwas rulers- the Marathas belong to the Shudra cast.”


Does this mean some known Marathas like arjun_m on this site are shudras? Aren’t Shudra Pleath per Gita?
What about Tendulkar? Is he a shudra too?

Hey arjun! I did not know you were shudra! Shudray! No wonder you clean bathrooms in DC…

What about chhabrias, the botalwalas, tyrewalas,kapadiyas......? Is this the modern day caste/class system? Keep on blowing this old FOUR CASTE trumpet.(Yadish bakhair) The modern day Brahmanism is the family names like Tatas.Birlas, Godrejs,Agarwals,Fords, Kennedys,Rockefellers.
Caste badi na pahiya,Sab se bada rupayya bhayya.Budhhe hogae hain par sooi Medieval ages mein atki hui hai.

What is this?

#12 by GT - I have no idea. Do you care? :)

Joshi Sahib, {``Also, doesn`t the last sentence in the above paragraph emphasize upon Shivaji`s dishonesty and fraudulent character? ``}

Joshi Sahib,
Thank you for shining the light on this dishonest and fraudulent character. In several exchanges with some right-wing Indian interactors, I have made the point that Shivaji was a rebel, a terrorist, and fighting against India. Someone, I think it may have been ranjit bhai, made the point that whoever has Delhi has India. Well, Maharaja Aurangjeb was ruled Delhi and therefore was the rightful head of Hindustan. Shivaji, being a coward and a terrorist, would avoid direct confrontation and resorted to hit and run tactics that we call terrorism today. Let`s be clear about it. If Shivaji is a patriot and Maharaja Aurangjeb is the ``foreign invader,`` then being an Indian is tantamount to being anti-Muslim and a right-wing Hindutva advocate.

#1 manto, looks like you have read the preface of Maratha the Warrior Kind by Blain ;-)

Sadna, the argument presented makes sense from the view point of abrahamic religions. e.g. use of icons by catholics was irreligious blashphemy for orthodox, haveing an extra prophet makes admedis schismatic and so on.

While granting the case for irreligiosity, the case for barbarism in this article is weak. Perhpas the author can write about Sivajis campaigns plundering the most prosporous of Mughal cities, Surat to make the case better.

Regarding dishonesty or guile many examples exist. Some excellent examples are when he killed the great turki adilshahi noble Afzal Khan personally using trickery, thus leaving his ousized fouj leaderless, or when he entered the harem of shiosta khan, mamu of Azeb and chopped his XXX off, or when he escaped A.zebs jail under Ramsings guard.

While rajputs are no doubt famous for valor, its naiive to think of them as stupid and giule-less. Jaisingh changed his pagari so many times, that A zen would not send him on deccan mission without dilir khan checking his emails. in a famous case, dara shikh ordered his wifes breasts washed, and this water was offered to a rajput raja as a drink (+ 1 million rupees) to make him his symbolic son, and this raja turned on dara shikoh within a year, thus going even against his mommy!

HP maratha clan is mostly Kurmi (peasants)..different than Marathi people of the land.

Hello Kedar,
I would like to tell chowkies about your viewpoint towards Hindus and Hindu culture. Two articles (aka CS/BS/HS) written by Kedar Joshi can also be found at: http://www.spiderden.com/articles/84023-the-hindu-festivals.html
http://www.spiderden.com/articles/84066-is-cow-sacred-or-edible-_.html

The Hindu Festivals
By: Kedar Joshi, Fri Dec 9th, 2005 05:56:35 PM

Almost all of the Hindu festivals are bogus, childish, and absolutely rubbish. Here I explain how.

1. Makar Sankranti (Capricorn Transition of Sun)- It is celebrated by giving Til Gool, a kind of round sweet edible thing, to each other and saying Til Gool Ghya Ani God Bola. (i.e. have this til gool and speak good.) Now how many people really speak good because of this? Almost none! Simply ridiculous!

2. Holi and Rangapanchami (A kind of fire night to burn evil followed by some colourful celebration) - A huge fire is created, at innumerably many places across the country (i.e. India), for the sake of burning evil. However, what is literally burnt is wood and loads of air pollution is created. The next day water balloons and colours are heavily used to throw at civilians which causes injuries and interruption to normal duties/routine. What a shame!

3. Nagpanchami - This festival celebrates and worships the reptile `snake`, which is offered milk on the basis of the misbelief that it likes milk, where, in fact, it does not drink milk at all. Quite silly!

4. Raksha Bandhan (Promise of Protection)- In this festival a sister ties a Rakhi, a kind of funny band, on the wrist/s of her brother/s expecting a promise that he/they will protect her in hostile circumstances. (where actually the sole interest of the sister is often to get money out of her brother/s pocket/s.)

5. Ganesh Chaturthi (Celebrating the funny-looking elephant headed god)- Loads of huge (as well as tiny and medium size) Ganesh statues are created, worshipped, and finally sunk in rivers and seas. All this is accompanied by loads of noise & water pollution and severe disruption on roads demanding police forces. Pathetic!

6. Dashera, Dussehra (also known as Vijayadashami) - In the name of burning evil, a massive Ravan doll is burnt at many places across the country, causing loads of air and noise pollution. Absolutely childish!

7. Divali / Deepavali It is mainly celebrated with millions of fire crackers all over the country with absolute disregard to nature and civilians. It is even fearsome and possibly fateful to travel in those periods as roads are full of burning firecrackers !!! Simply annoying, barbaric, and Rubbish!

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Is Cow Sacred or Edible ?
By: Kedar Joshi, Fri Dec 9th, 2005 05:56:37 PM

It is well known that the animal cow is sacred to Hindus who believe that it contains some billions or trillions of gods in it. It is quite clear that an object as small as a cow cannot possibly contain so many objects that could be supposed to be having divine characteristics. Cow is a very useful animal to humans as it mainly provides milk. Of course this provision does not really make the cow holy as virtually every animal in the animal kingdom is in some way or the other useful or rather very useful to humans. Believing the cow to be sacred in fact keeps the Hindus short of good meat and food. The cow is thus edible, not sacred. It makes sense to eat it rather than worship it.

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About the author: I was born on 31 Dec 1979 in Mumbai (Bombay), India, where I lived for the first 15 years of my life. Then I moved to Pune (Poona). In March 2004 I came to Cambridge, England where I currently live and work.

Founder & President British Superultramodern Scientific Institution St John`s Innovation Centre Cowley Road Cambridge CB4 0WS http://www.bssi.org.uk email: