Remembering Munish

ahmadzai #87

`` The article is on a separate matter. May the Supreme Being bless the soul of the departed and enable all of us to follow-in his good footsteps.

However, the real issue is that when each and every killing in India is conveniently blamed on Pakistan by the Indian Government without any proof and the stance quickly taken up by Indian media as a crusade against Pakistan, we get the resultant brainwashed Indians all over the world.

The real problem is not Islamic Jihadis who can be easily identified, chased and bombed all over the world, but these `educated and IT savvy` hate Muslim and hate Pakistan Indians infesting websites all over. How do you bring them back to normalcy?

The Indian Government should have looked at all the aspects instead of trying to score browny points. The gruesome murder could have been committed by disgruntled servants, students, people of the underworld looking for easy money, etc. But no sir, every single crime in India has to be blamed on Pakistan. ``

I do not disagree with your overall complaint.

Blame the Pakistani government for getting you in the present state. Pakistan played its role in Indian Punjab and Kashmir. Do you still think Pakistani government did not orchestrate the Indian Airlines hijacking from Kathmandu to Kandahar ? Add to it the denial of support for the Taliban and lies about nuclear proliferation. It is easy to see why the Pakistani state has zero credibility.

DM: I think the discussion below is related to the topic. However, if you feel that it in any way detracts from the respect due to the memory of your late friend, please let me know.

Its obvious Indian Held Kashmir is not a normal Indian State because its is a occupied state - to make Kashmir part of Indian Establishment India did everything she can for more then 5o years but can not control the freedom movement in Kashmir and Insh`Allah will never can .
Yes maybe phyically Jammu is part of India but does people who live in Jammu thinks of themselves as Indians ? No way --
Kashmir Bane-ga-Pakistan ( Insh`Allah tu Tallah )

HP #93 There is no black and white aspect in political issues, and what you say about Bangladesh and Kashmir is certainly reasonable. This is a gray area with different aspects that we could discuss forever.

However, I think the issue of the well-being of the average Abdul Joe Kashmiri (AJK), is not just a ``good sentiment but impractical`` but an area where there IS a black and white. I saw the pictures of kashmiri families re-united after 50 years and it made my blood boil to think that these poor people suffered for the incompetence and sins of the politicians and military of both countries. What right does any individual (no matter if he is a president of pm or ``freedom fighter``) have to deny the right of some other individual to live in peace and security?!!

So, I think our difference is not one of principle (where we both agree on this focus on the individual being a ``good sentiment``), but one of the role we allow that principle to play in forming our views. I think we need to keep it as the litmus test when forming our views on any issue.

PS: i am sorry we have to conduct this discussion with pandit-hates like pmishra trying to butt in, but what the hell!! :-)

93/HP
[..... It is now clear that the army in Kashmir is being used to suppress Political demands of Kashmiris....]

Give it up man - even Ahmed Mian32 is not buying your cr@p...... That should tell you something.....

indian army first paratrooped in kashmir at the request of then maharaja to defend against raping-pillging hordes sent by paki regime, and then stayed on to defend the LOC, a constant state of war, and acts of escalation during 65, 71 and kargil.

tahmed,
“despite the rhetoric from india and the bengali politicians, the fact is that military force in East Pakistan was triggered by the need to keep the country together”

Not true and perhaps we will disagree on this but the army in East Pakistan was used to suppress Bengali political demands. There was no separatist movement in East Pakistan nor did Bengali declare independence from Pakistan BEFORE the army action in East Pakistan.
Once the army action started, Bengalis had every right to pursue whatever course of action was deemed best by the Bengali political leadership.

No Kashmir group in Indian Kashmir has declared independence nor has any one demanded the right of self determination. In the absence of a cause, the continued use of the Indian army in Kashmir begs subsequent action.

The Indian govt’s plea in using the army was the foreign interference but after ten years the Indian army has failed to show any progress in that area. It is now clear that the army in Kashmir is being used to suppress Political demands of Kashmiris.

I have no stake in Kashmir so my interest is academic. The way I look at it, Kashmir is not a dispute between the two countries anymore. It is an issue between Kashmiris and illegal suppression of their human, constitutional and civil rights within the state of India by the Indian government and the Indian army.

“So, if one is concerned about the people of kashmir, one should start with the first thing that any normal person wants - peace and security.”

Good sentiments but have no practical meaning. There is a huge gap between “personal wants” and the reality on the ground.

HP #91 If military force is used to commit genocide, then certainly the community has the right to self-defense and to fight back. This is consistent with the generally accepted principles of self-defense.

However, despite the rhetoric from india and the bengali politicians, the fact is that military force in East Pakistan was triggered by the need to keep the country together, not to perform a nazi-style ``final solution``. Similarly, regardless of the rhetoric from pakistan, the fact is that military force was triggered in kashmir by the need to fight the separatist movement.

Whether an indian flag flies over srinagar, or a pakistani one, or a kashmiri one - it does not matter one bit to allah ditta sitting in kashmir whose main concern is to get by the best he can. The continuing violence and instability is hurting allah ditta far more than any possible benefits he could get by a change of flags in srinagar.

If this was 1947, or even 1965, and borders were fluid, there could have been some justification of pakistani military force to take over kashmir by force if that was possible. But we are in a post-nuclear age in south asia. The LoC has gelled into becoming the international border for all practical purposes. So, if one is concerned about the people of kashmir, one should start with the first thing that any normal person wants - peace and security. Time to move on. Like all land feuds, this one serves no one and has gone far too long already.

tahmed,
“the Indian military presence in Kashmir is, per se, is in fact perfectly within the accepted norms of the exercise of state power.”

Presence of the army and the use of the army as a political deterrent agency are two different things. You can’t have one side using the ultimate force and the other side not responding to it. That is not how this world works. The Indian army has been used as a political force in Kashmir for more than a decade now and has not shown any progress in combating the so called foreign elements in Kashmir. That means only one thing that the insurgency in Kashmir is local and the army is being used to persecute the civilians.

I would draw the analogy from the army action in East Pakistan. Pakistan used the army to suppress bengali political struggle and demands. Once the army was used, Bengalis had every right to respond back in kind and that included getting support from the outside powers such as India too.

Sorry to see this forum on Dr. Puri has been hijacked by crazies justifying violence and invoking ``root cause`` to justify hate and mass murder. Sad and strange...

One good thing is there hasn`t been a rush to judgement by the police and local authorities. A few people have been arrested and are being questioned BUT no one claims that the attack is solved etc.

---

Bangalore breakthrough: ‘South India head of LeT’


IISc Police think Rehman masterminded terror attack, he lived in Saudi Arabia, visited Bangladesh, has been in India since Oct


JOHNSON T A


Posted online: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 at 0128 hours IST



BANGALORE, JANUARY 3: The Bangalore police on Tuesday announced their first major breakthrough in the investigations into the December 28 attack on the Indian Institute of Science by showing the arrest of a 35-year-old resident of Nalgonda district in Andhra Pradesh, Abdul Rehman alias Umed alias Mohammed Raiz-ur Rehman— reportedly the head of the south India operations of the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Rehman was picked up in Nalgonda on January 1, Bangalore Police Commissioner Ajay Kumar Singh said without elaborating on Rehman’s role in the December 28 attack that killed former IIT Delhi professor M C Puri.



Sources said that the arrest has been made on the premise that Rehman funded and masterminded the IISc attack. Rehman’s passport shows that he has been in Saudi Arabia for nearly 13 years. The passport also bears immigration stamps for Bangladesh, sources said.

‘‘He has been in India since Ramzan. The passport is stamped for entry at the Hyderabad airport on October 15, 2005, for his arrival from Riyadh,’’ sources revealed.

During his interrogation over the past few days, Rehman has said that he has never visited Bangalore. He claims to have only visited Hyderabad and Chennai on one occasion.

According to sources, Rehman is a follower of the Al Haddees sect in Islam and was a sort of preacher and a translator from Arabic to Urdu at an Islamic Study Centre in Saudi Arabia. Police are trying to follow up on leads on friends and contacts of Rehman found at his Nalgonda residence.

‘‘We don’t think he was the perpetrator of the attack. His arrest is in relation to the conspiracy. He amassed a lot of wealth in Saudi Arabia and was funding organizations involved in proselytizing for Islam in India. There are discrepancies in what he is telling us,’’ a senior police official said.

Rehman’s family has been living in Nalgonda for several years and his father is reportedly a retired state government employee, while three of his brothers run a business in Nalgonda town, sources said. According to Rehman, he has visited only Chennai outside of Hyderabad in recent years. In 2003, he went to Chennai to collect a consignment of Islamic books in English and Urdu, he has told investigators. Police officials are expecting to obtain major leads on the IISc attack through Rehman. They have obtained his custody for 14 days.

DM Saheb

I think we must unequivocally condemn these so called `educated` Pakistanis on this board who support mindless jehadi violence against innocent civilians in order to complete the unfinished agenda of TNT that kashmir represents to them.....................I hope that you understand how deep the fissures have been created in the Pakistani psyche by their theocratic state apparatus that they are unable to comprehend the mindless cycle of violence that their jehadi machinery is going to inflict on their own social fabric..................these idiots do not understand that the enemy is at their own gates..............and they are sleeping with them..............we can only pity them for their fate that awaits them.............

HP: If all you are saying is the right to peaceful demonstration for some grievance, then of course that would not be a problem. It is violent actions I am arguing against, since these achieve nothing other than victimize innocent people, and the ``cause`` for which violence is undertaken almost always turns out to be a mirage: there is no perfect society, and violence almost always serves to hinder the general social and economic progress. As I said, for better or worse, human society today is structured as nation-states, and one of the basic tenets of the nation-state is that the only form of violence permitted within a state is that conducted within existing laws by state agencies (including the military). So, the Indian military presence in Kashmir is, per se, is in fact perfectly within the accepted norms of the exercise of state power.

Birmingham: While you are right in condemning the london bombings, you do so for the wrong reasons: these bombings are wrong because they break the law in the same way an individual breaks the law and becomes a common criminal when he commits murder. Not because of the reasons you list - i.e. you dont kill people because you dont like their views (as you imply in reason 2 is OK), and you dont kill people because they belong to a nation that occupies another nation (as you imply in your reason 3), i.e. because you dont like the community they belong to. Dont we have enough violence within Pakistan that is carried out for similar ``reasons`` as it is? As for ``attacks against civilians in India are wrong but attacks against Indian Security Officials is not terrorism but defence against a nation which illegally occupies Kashmir by force ``, please see what I wrote to HP above. You are sitting in a country (i.e. UK) where the police dont carry guns, a country that has given the world the concept of the Rule of Law as currently understood. You should be teaching us these things on chowk, rather than talking as if you are never understood what a civilized society is all about.

Dost Mittar jee, HP and Tahmed:

The article is on a separate matter. May the Supreme Being bless the soul of the departed and enable all of us to follow-in his good footsteps.

However, the real issue is that when each and every killing in India is conveniently blamed on Pakistan by the Indian Government without any proof and the stance quickly taken up by Indian media as a crusade against Pakistan, we get the resultant brainwashed Indians all over the world.

The real problem is not Islamic Jihadis who can be easily identified, chased and bombed all over the world, but these `educated and IT savvy` hate Muslim and hate Pakistan Indians infesting websites all over. How do you bring them back to normalcy?

The Indian Government should have looked at all the aspects instead of trying to score browny points. The gruesome murder could have been committed by disgruntled servants, students, people of the underworld looking for easy money, etc. But no sir, every single crime in India has to be blamed on Pakistan.

#85 by IAliBirmingham on January 3, 2006 5:29pm PT


my children and there(sic) children and there(sic) children will fight for our rights until we dont get our land ..



until you get your land or until you run out of children, whichever comes first...

tere dawa janeva mein hai na london mein,
farang ke ragg jaa pahonch yahood mein hai,
suna hai mein nay ghulami say ummatoon ke nejaad,
khudee ke purwash-o-lazat namood mein hai,
...
hai khaaq-e-falasteen pai yahoodi ka haq,
haspania pay nahin kyoon ahal-e-arab ka ,
....
woh faqa-kash kay mo-ot say nahin darta,
rooh-e-mohammad uss ke rooh say nikaal doo,
afghanoo ke gharat dain ka hai yeh ilaaj,
mullah ko iss kay koh-e-daman say nikal doo,
...
kafir ke moot say bhe larazta hai yeh dil,
kehta hai koon iss say kay musalman ke moot marr,
taleem uss ko caahe-yay ussay turk jihad ke,
dunya ko uss kay punja, khooni say ho khatar


Hazrat Alama Iqbal ( rah ) once said about my
nation that ,

gur firdoos bar roo-ay zamee issst - humay issst
waheen issst - o - humay issst
meaning , that if heaven is at a level of earth, then
it is here , it is there

I am emotional now will write some time later ,
arjun ( on a personal note ) , it is this attitude by people like you in Hindustand that the problem of Kashmir is not solved , my children and there children and there children will fight for our rights until we dont get our land ..
shukria

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