Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

Faisaluno...

First of all Cowasjee has the right to his views... I respect the man as he has integrity and character but there are many things I disagree with...

But let us for the purpose of discussion accept all his allegations against Zulfikar Ali Bhutto...

The amendments that Bhutto brought along followed a legal and constitutional process. He had the majority to do what he did... If he was a dictatorial democrat, he was still bound by the electoral process... there is no equivalence with a military dictator arbitrarily operating as the head of the state.

Pakistani constitution does not allow for :-

1- A president in the uniform- no matter how many times the assembly votes with simple majority- the law allowing the president in uniform is ultra vires to the Constitution.

2- A serviceman as an elected president ...Any citizen of Pakistan has to be out of the service of the republic for 2 years before he is qualified enough to be an elected official- be it the president of the republic or a legislator.

3- A referendum to be used for the purposes of presidential election.


What we have is a Military oligarch with bad advice from a brilliant sophist i.e. Mr Peerzada who has sullied the good name of the man he served as a personal secretary to for a few months.

#44 by masadi on January 8, 2006 10:06pm PT

{{{Really, then how come the suicide rates for white males peak at old ages in USA? When worth in a society is based on value in the work place, ageism, is a much bigger issue than a more traditional society like Pakistan. So #40 what you state is nonsense.}}

masadi
First of all , you have absolutely NO right to call my post NONSENSE. Look at your Paki mentality, started abusing my ideology nonsense and your`s with NO reality full of all the sense. Who taught you such manners, to attack people in such a derogaorty manner. If, you`re unable to take the pressure or stress of healthy discussions, you should not take part in any discussions, or, at least frist learn, how to handle any discussion with logic. Thanks

Second, Pakistan has never been any traditional society. Where are the traditions? I wish , I could see all the best traditions, which we imagine in our minds, called delusions. If, Pakistan would have been a traditional society, believe me, it would have been much better, than what it is today. It is just a chaotic and confused full of anarchy state with NO traditions left. That is the reason, it is # 1 CORRUPT country in the world.

Age has been any problem in America. Why? b/c Govt. and their traditions don`t make age an issue, they take the best care of their old age people. That is the reason, average age is higher in USA than in Pakistan. Majority of older people live up to their nineties. This is the best example of their good care system. If, they wouldn`t have cared for them, they would have let them die in miseries. Just like Paki chaotic society. In America, theri whole care system revolves around old age people. I have seen majority of them are happier, independent and less scared of death and less depressed than their older counterparts in Pakistan. Elder mental and physical abuse is much much hioger in Pakistan, which goes unreported, b/c Paki society hides every dirt under the carpet.

American society is open to accept any dirt and then to improve it for future. That is the reason America is three centuries ahead of Pakistan. So, there is absolutely NO question of comparing Pakistan with America. It is just like comparing Sun`s light with moon`s light.

#82 by Mantolives on January 10, 2006 3:18am PT

Stop dreaming of a time when you had the old constitution, when you were treated by the paki state as a muslim and when a women didn`t require 4 adult muslim males to prove rape...

That`s sooo last century...

manto,

cowasjee will disgaree with your assertion that 1973 constitution was being enforced from 1973-1977. also i have seen a couple of surveys by mainstream media organisation in which the awam ranks their main items of concern. lack of enforcement 1973 constitution is not listed on that. i will post the links to links to that survey later. also can you please post results of survey which shows that constitution is the main item of concern for the awam. btw given lieteracy levels in pak, i doubt most people would understand the constitution in the first place. can you please explain how most pakistanis who are not even matric pass understand a document as complex as the 1973 constitution. thanks

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20020407.htm

And it must never be forgotten that on August 14, 1973, the date on which Democrat Zulfikar Ali Bhutto proudly promulgated the Constitution that is still with us, that within four hours of its promulgation, the people of Pakistan were deprived of all their constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights through a gazette notification issued by the promulgator himself, the same Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Fundamental rights having been rendered non-justiciable, he had all his political opponents arrested. They were held in various jails until released by Zia four years later.

...These rules were suspended by Bhutto for the passage of the Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Amendment Bills. The First Amendment Bill was introduced in the House on April 15, 1974. The standing committee presented its report the next day and within a week it was passed leaving no time for debate. The Third Amendment Bill was introduced on February 11, 1975, the required report was presented and the Bill passed the next day.

The Second Amendment to the Constitution passed on September 21, 1974 deliberately infringed upon the rights of an entire community - the Ahmadis - rights that are recognized by the world at large and by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The community was shorn of its majority rights and declared a minority, after having existed as a part of the majority for 27 years since the birth of Pakistan in 1947. By the stroke of a pen, it was declared that an Ahmadi ``is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution and law.``

rozaiba,

while in your mind you might think of yourself as the second coming of aflatoon, i am afraid that world has yet to accord you that status. therefore, you will have to provide us with sources, facts and figures to back up your assertions about iran and korea. otherwise, your statments will be treated as false which is perhaps why you dont provide sources in the first place. its also possible given your intelect which is that of an employee for a najam sethi owned newspaper, the need to provide sources never crossed your mind. and given your lies about pakistan which i have debunked in my earler posts, its also possible that the concept of using reputable sources to form an opinion is an alien concept for you.

just to make make things clear, i am looking for you to back the following claims:

i. korea had a preferntial trade agreement with the u.s and that level of korean military expenditure was much lower than normal.

kindly provide some information on the aforementioned trade agreement. the follwing two links have no mention of such a trade arrangement or abnormally low levels of korean military expenditure. second source in fact says just the opposite:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2800.htm

``...In the early 1960s, the government of Park Chung Hee instituted sweeping economic policy changes emphasizing exports and labor-intensive light industries, leading to rapid debt-financed industrial expansion. The government carried out a currency reform, strengthened financial institutions, and introduced flexible economic planning. In the 1970s Korea began directing fiscal and financial policies toward promoting heavy and chemical industries, as well as consumer electronics and automobiles. Manufacturing continued to grow rapidly in the 1980s and early 1990s....``

http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/article/cha.korea

...Park Chung Hee`s reaction was to reduce the level of reliance on the U.S. armed support by expanding capability to produce munitions, which required returning to ISI to build heavy and chemical industries (HCI). The government intervened heavily in the financial markets, directing banks to provide low interest loans to chaebols -- conglomerates of businesses owned by a single family -- selected for the task of developing different sectors of HCI. Successfully expanding the capital-intensive industries more rapidly than the rest of the economy, the HCI drive generated multiple symptoms of distortion, including rapidly slowing growth, worsening inflation and accumulation of non-performing loans.

ii. on iran, i would like to see sources which indicate that iranian revolution occured because of economic inequality rather than forced secularisation by the shah - something which wont happen in pak because mush has insured that mma has a share of power. also fyi, following is from a bbc report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/5/newsid_2538000/2538427.stm

``...The appointment of Mr Sharif-Emami, a Shia Muslim, by the Shah just over two months ago was designed to put an end to the religious violence currently sweeping across the country.

...The unrest is partly a response to the programme of secularisation being implemented under the Shah who took over from his father as Iran`s ruler in 1941...``

there are actually more lies in your your post. i will only debunk them after i get response to my querries in this post. good luck with your search and you might find the follwing link useful:

www.google.com

let me know if you want tips on how to use it.

Faisaluno...

All real Pakistanis care about the constitution- especially those from lower middle and middle class backgrounds... you are right that most upper class Pakistanis don`t give a damn...

Heck- on TV I heard this dialogue between Talat Hussain and a talib(student) from Jamia Haqqania ... and Talat Hussain asked him ``What do you want`` And he said- look we want the constitution of 1973- yeh hamari mushtarak qadar hai.

I hate Mullahs but I respect what he said...

The great thing about the 1973`s constitution is its immense structural flexibility- depending on how you use it- you can be a decentralised state or you can be heavily centralised- you can be a modern democratic relatively secular state or you can become theocratically Islamic, you can even move from Westminster style parliamentary democracy to a French style republic...

So it is a level playing field- but there is ONE choice it doesn`t give. Arbitrary military dictators to take over the country and play havoc with its people.

Bolta Aina,

Interior Sindh votes overwhelmingly PPP and PML (both national parties)- Karachi votes MQM and at times Jamaat-e-Islami...

Where are the Sindhi nationalists? Most real Sindhi nationalists want the constitution of 1973 implemented in full measure.


Dullah Bhatti,

Legally speaking ...constitution of 1973 was in force for all years since 1973 except 1977-1985 and 1999-2002 ....

1985 it was heavily amended and in 2003 it was considerably amended (as in the elected legislatures ratified the amendments by the Martial Law regimes.

Pakistan`s territorial integrity....a reality or a mirage.

Check it out here

Manto, Your favourites Ms. Ayesha Jalal and Aitzaz ``Indus`` Ahsan also find a place there.