Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

#24 alibirmingham
Sir, I don`t hate any country. Yes, I do criticise , if, I see their is corruption going on in any country or community.
Pakistan is #1 corrupt country in the world. And, don`t tell me that I am wrong. It is the very fact. You`re saying Pakistan has morality, family values, respect for elders, culture.

Lets talk about each one of them and their prevalence in Paki society.
1:-Morality, yes, that is the main reason Pakistani society is # 1 in corruption. Which is the reflection of great morality.

2:-family values, yes, family values where majority of people hate eachother living in combined family system, which raise more chaos, than living independently.

3:-respect for elders, No more, elders are being mentally and physically abused at the hands of their own kids. They are victims of insecurities, if, they are poor. They don`t have any Govt. system to support them. There is NO family or social support system for them. They are being tortured daily by their kids and grand kids and they die in their own miseries.

4:- culture, yes, cross culture from India or some mexican culture with lil mixed up of Arabs. Where is your culture? Yes, a culture of bribery, lies, greed, thefts, and bombing innocent poor citizens.

Pakistan is a failed state with NO values left . Pakistan has failed to give respect to it`s citizens. When a state fails to give protection an dbasic rights to it`s own citizens equally , that is failed state, for sure.

re: #35-37 by xosmanx
(Because only a minority in Balochistan wants to have their demands met. They certainly don`t even want to break away. Their forefathers themselves opted for Pakistan. None of these things are true in the case of Kashmiris. Pakistan did not invade Balochistan or Sind.)
How do u know what the Balochis want? You can know that only if u have a referendum.
The problem seems very deep rooted. Balochistan may prove to be Pak`s Vietnam.
Sridhar

Not dare to hold a plebscite in Kashmir, that is.

And even if they exercised self-determination, they would still stick with Pakistan. India cannot dare to do the same.

Rsidar: `` why not apply self-determination uniformly across the board and say that even Sindh, Balochistan, NWFP need to have self-determination and allowed to secede``

Because only a minority in Balochistan wants to have their demands met. They certainly don`t even want to break away. Their forefathers themselves opted for Pakistan. None of these things are true in the case of Kashmiris. Pakistan did not invade Balochistan or Sind.

Taking a class in logic and history might help you.

re: Musharraf and the present consitution of Pak
In a controversial referendum in April 2002, Musharraf became the
the self- appointed democratic leader of Pak.
In i think Aug 2002, Gen. Pervez Musharraf unilaterally changed Pakistan`s Constitution with amendments that expanded his control of the country he took over by coup in 1999. These
Legal framework order 2002 as they are called, put a stamp of Musharraf`s authority.

As per the new amendmends, he gave himself powers to make further amendments at will and allow him to dissolve the elected Parliament and appoint the country`s military chiefs and Supreme Court justices. The changes also institutionalized the political role of the military in politics by allotting it some seats in the National Security Council.
The constitution of Pak does not reflect the will of the people. How can it be so when the ruler of the land is a dictator and military rule is paramount and overrides the powers of the elected rulers.
Sridhar

re: Manto`s post
(The great thing of the 1973 constitution is that it leaves enough room for movement in any direction... it can very easily become a French-style Republican parliamentary democracy or even go towards Westminster style democracy... it can very easily move towards a pluralist modern relatively secular state with some sprinkling of Islam... or it can become a more conservatively Islamic theocratic state....)
The great thing about 1973 constitution is that it does not exist in 2006!
The great dictator of Pakistan, General Musharraf rules over the land and is ably guided by USA with China looking over his shoulders.
Talking of a constitution when the nation is ruled by a dictator is like a whore talking about chastitiy. It does not ring true.
Sridhar

No offense, but what was the point of this long article? To demonstrate that we must take a look at the Civil War scene to get a no-brainer lesson on the Pakistani situation?!!

re:#6 by ahmedmadani
Ha, ha, ha.
Ahmed ``mad``ani says:
(We should follow that if they start to cede from pakistan they should be treated as law and order problem and traeted as criminal.)
But when it comes to Kashmiris, Pakis like ``mad``ani will say that they need self-determination. why not apply self-determination uniformly across the board and say that even Sindh, Balochistan, NWFP need to have self-determination and allowed to secede if they want to.
Sridhar

#24 by IAliBirmingham on January 8, 2006 1:50pm PT


but we are
one thousand times ahead of Americans in terms of respect for elders,culture and
family values.


Yes..the world found out...on 9/11, 7/7 etc etc...

re: this article
I am not sure if the author has read the American History. There is not much resemblance between the former 13 American Colonies of the early American Republic and the 4 Pakistani Provinces (Sindh, Punjab, NWFP, Balochistan) today.
Much of the early experience of the American colonists was shaped by common enmity with Britain much as the early history of Pak has been shaped by its enmity with India. But then Pak broke free of India as it saw itself as a muslim nation that cannot live with the hindus. Pak shaped its destiny pretty much on the lines of religion, making Islam the supreme religion of the land, denying much religious freedom to other minorities. It infact went to the other extreme of not only forcefulling converting a large section of hindus to Islam after its independence but denied freedom to Ahmediyyas who face religious presecution.

Pak is not formed by the will of its power, unlike the USA after the Revolution whose abiding motto was the sovereignity of its people. Religious freedom was respected even in the 17th century America. American Revolution was the handiwork of ordinary Americans rebelling against the economic, political sovereignty of Britain (unlike Pak being the handiwork of one single person obsessed with his hatred of Gandhi and idea of a land for muslims). Colonists even in the early 1770s (before the Revolution) were prosperous, without the aristocracy, tilteship of the British and many owned and tilled their own lands. They saw themselves very different from the British, with very different value system. Freedom was upmost in their mind. When Americans won the Revolution, George Washington, the Chief military commander, voluntarily gave up the post and desisted the temptation of becoming a monarch. In this, he had no precedence. This unique act in the annals of history put America on path to greatness.
Pak`s latest military dictator (in the line of so many before him) in a coup threw away an elected leader and the people of pak applauded then. Could this have ever happened in America or elsewhere? Pak does not have a free judiciary, a free Press (it is seemingly free in as far as the dictator allows it to be free) and the elections are never free and the present PM is elected per the will of the dictator.
Any comparison of Pak`s provinces to the 13 former American colonies is therefore laughable. Pakis can however draw important lessons as to where and how they failed in creating the kind of society that the former Colonists managed to create. In this, they may draw some useful lessons from the Indian experience in the neighboruhood where feudalism failed and democracy survives. Army in India does not call shots and is subservient to the elected leaders. Pakis do not have to go as far as the American colonies for lessons in history. They only have to look to their giant neighbour.
Sridhar

`` IAliBirmingham ``

`` Zeena and your point is?
yes we may be backwards in terms of wealth and scientific know-how but we are
one thousand times ahead of Americans in terms of respect for elders,culture and
family values. ``

What are you doing in Birmingham, United Kingdom ?

What is so scared about respect for elders ? America does look after its old people better than a lot of other societies.

ahmedmadani #6

`` One of way to avoid problems is to appoint some investigation commission with due report in 15 years with possibility of 10 years extension for completing report, so things can cool little and problem can be left to future. At this time building dam will play in hands of Indians who are masterminding blow up of railtracks, power poles and pipelines. It is specially bad when China engrs are working in B.Stan. Sindh separting is not going to solve any problem as then indians and sindhis can make problems more can divert water to Sindh through india and enter in near southern punjab through Sindhi territory. Also after Indus biggest source of water is Kabul river. With our friends like indians and afghans we do not needs enemies. With indian encouragement Afghans are thinking of building dam with india providing loans. That can be daggar at heart of pakistans water problem.
Your points are correct of exploitation of some by others and it is going all world over does not mean divorce is needed, what is needed is therapy of what Jinnah gave Unity , Faith and discipline and belief in two distinct nations and Islamic unity in pakistan is overriding little tribal nationalism of Jiye sindh of BLA etc. We should respect whining and moaning of Sindhi nd balochi but they need to be told sindhi port or balochi gas and minerals are not property of only local people but is property of all pakistanis. And these are national assets and no body should be allowed to damage gas line, rail, and towers. Those who do shold be tried by military courts so justice swift and fast and final. ``

I see why the Bengalis got feed up with Pakistan.

Why would not Afghans build a dam ? Don`t they have any rights to their shares of Kabul river ? After all Afghans are also Muslims ??

`` The ongoing political drama leaves a terrible taste in ones mouth and makes one wonder, why is it that we, in Pakistan, are engaged in a zero-sum game where the federation can only gain at the expense of the provinces and the provinces at the expense of the federation? Why can`t a citizen of Pakistan wear his/her dual indentities, Pakistani and a Sindhi-Baluchi-Pathan-Punjabi, with pride on his/her chest at the same time? ``

Welcome to nation building !!!

`` What would happen if Pakistan`s territorial integrity is indeed compromised? Would Sindh or NWFP or Baluchistan survive on its own? Should Sindh take the unthinkable step in protest of Punjab`s high-handedness over KBD, would it be able to guarantee any water for itself coming out of Punjab? Lets assume, hypothetically, that Punjab is indeed on the wrong of side of the KBD issue, would independent Punjab and Sindh be in any better position to sort out the water distribution among themselves and how? Would Punjab have access to the sea port that is as much a lifeline of its economy as it is Sindh`s? If Pakistan is to disintegrate, what would refrain these provinces to engage in ``water wars`` with each other? What would stop other neighboring countries, India, Iran, or even Afghanistan, from taking advantage of that situation? ``

NWFP could merge with Afghanistan. Not that it would solve any of their problems.

Baluchistan could survive on its own. It has natural gas supplies which could generate $$$ given current natural gas prices. They could collect the rent from Uncle Sam that the generals in Islamabad are currently collecting.

Sind and Punjab have to work out a mutual agreement on use of Karachi port and sharing the Indus waters. Both have a strangehold on the lifeline of the other. Punjab controls the waters. Sind controls access to the ocean.

`` When nationalists leaders raise the issue of Pakistan`s territorial integrity, they talk as if nothing would be lost to them if Pakistan disintegrates into separate countries comprising different ``nations``. Nothing can be far from the truth. Pakistan, despite its shortcomings and defects, is greater than the sum of its parts. Every province gains from the union considerably while at the same time contributing to it. Baluchistan provides natural resources to other three provinces. Sindh provides a port to the rest of the country. Punjab and NWFP contribute with its agriculture. Dividing Pakistan into separate countries would only eliminate these synergies and jeopradize the survival of each of the four provinces. At the very least, independent provinces would find themselves in considerably more hardships than what they currently face. It would expose them to the kinds of dangers that American republican leaders were aware of and worked so hard to avoid in the 1780s. ``

Pakistani Punjab and their entity called Pakistani Army would be the losers. They would lose access to the ocean. They would lose cheap Baluchi natural gas. They would lose the rent they get from Uncle Sam.

Why do you think Pakistani Army is ranting Islam, Islam, Islam ...

`` What then is the solution for Pakistan`s interprovincial rivalries? An extra-constitutional option leading to a territorial split is clearly not an solution. Pakistan`s four provinces and the federation must find answers to its problems within the country`s broader constitutional framework. This would require genuine reconciliation, compromise, and sacrifice between provinces. The bigger province, Punjab, must take the lead in sacrifice like the elder brother does for his/her younger siblings. In turn, the smaller provinces must appreciate the sacrifice of the bigger province and make compromises in national interest. Politics is the art of making compromises. We should not let the best be the enemy of the good. If the country cannot reach a compromise (yet) on KBD, lets move forward with the Basha Dam on which all provinces agree upon and, in due course of time, and with greater trust and understanding between provinces, KBD would become a reality as well. ``

Mutually benefical confederation with a lean federal government is the only long term solution.

Good article; though it paints a very rosy picture of the formative years of the American democracy. A lot has gone on in America in the past 229 years from slavery to emancipation, from the westward expansion to the trail of tears, to the 14th, 15th and 16th amendments to the Civil Rights Movement......Americans have been through hell and back.......Things have not been that peachy for them as Mr. Osama`s article may presume, neither as democracy as seen today in America been what it had been.

America has come a long way, and Pakistan will too...

Hats off to Athar Osama Sahib for atleast thinking about it, developing a coherent thesis and presenting it... Please write more....

Asim

Zeena and your point is?
yes we may be backwards in terms of wealth and scientific know-how but we are
one thousand times ahead of Americans in terms of respect for elders,culture and
family values.
Zeena , either you are of slave mentality or either a Indian like arjun who whatvere reason hates Pakistan .