Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

I must repost my post from Farzana`s board given its relevance here...


#3 by Mantolives on January 8, 2006 9:20pm PT
`Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official.` (Theodore Roosevelt)

I believe Musharraf is sincere in all that he wants - modern pluralist relatively secular Pakistan, women`s rights, stable democracy and peace with India... The problem is that his fashion is arbitrary and therefore I am not going to put my money on him...


Sorry to disagree with you but if India really wants to make peace with Pakistan, here is what it needs to do:

1- While demonising Pakistani Military, don`t demonise Pakistan and its people.

2- Instead of clamouring for the rights of ``oppressed groups``, imagined or real, call for and forcefully call for the revival of Pakistan`s constitution and its status as a democracy...


Because these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me... and there are many like me.

I agree with Rozaiba...

Most of the development we see today was chalked out by democratic governments of the 1990s... and no one can deny that a popularly elected Punjabi leader that Nawaz Sharif was, he was able to sacrifice a lot of Punjab`s interests for the greater good of the federation... this is what constitutional governance does.

Fauji-lover Faisal’s gems:

“and obviously these people will resist kalabagh dam and gwader port because economic development is the fail safe way to bring about social change.”

No. They resist Kalabagh Dam SOLELY due to the mistrust created by the Army which has monopolized power. That is the SOLE reason. The 1991 Water Accord under Nawaz Sharif’s regime is proof that democratic governments can unify the nation over the most critical economic issue. And water is the most critical. Sure there are alternatives for what type of economic basis Pakistan should have – agricultural, industrial, services oriented etc – but for all intents and purposes, Pakistan is entirely reliant on the agri-sector and by the looks of it will remains so for a couple of decades. One of the points Nawaz Sharif’s regime made was to forgo Punjab’s share of royalty from the Kalabagh dam if that dam was constructed – of course this point would only be made part of the agreement once the negotiations began. The Gwader port, another one of Nawaz Sharif’s visions would not have faced so much resistance as it does now. Simply because democracies work better. I say this despite not being a supporter of PML(N).

As Najam Sethi says, the Baluch were not ‘ungovernable’ in the past as the various elements were OK with the power-sharing arrangements of previous governments. The current dictatorial govt. refuses to share power. However, there is no option but to share power with the tribals. If the current government was revolutionary in its ideals and had a plan to upstage the feudals and tribals and what not, then you could complain about how the primitive lords are a hindrance to progress. But the current government is completely status-quo oriented. So your nonsense has no basis.

“normal pakistanis otoh have nothing but gratitude for pak fauj officers for putting their lives on the line so that the rest of us can live in peace.”


Good one. Baluchistan burns, northern areas burn, the tribal areas have in their reaction embraced the Taliban and the best the government can do is throw out the building of Kalabagh dam to divert attention from the failures of its attempts to build national consensus.

But there’s the 8% growth rate so everything’s cool right? :D

Two of the old subcontinental sayings worth merit attention in the context of Pakistan :-

1. Boya Beej Babool ka tau Aam kehan sey Hoye, and,
2. Ek Galti ,sau galtiyan karvati hai.

The creation of Pakistan itself was on faulty lines. It was based on the pretext that the Religion is a great unifier. Yes, it is.. but only against an another religion. You can unite Hindus against Muslims, Muslims against Jews, Jews against Christians and Christians against any other. But you cannot unite Hindus, Muslims, Jews and Chrisitians on their own. All of them,amongst themselves, will be as divided as separate religions.

The greatest natural unifier of the human beings is the Land. The second one is the ancestory or ethnicity and third is the culture. A Hindu and a Muslim of Avadh or Punjab or Bengal or Hyderabad will get united on the basis of these three factors but a Hindu & a Hindu and a Muslim & a Muslim of Avadh, Punjab, Bengal ,Hyderabad will never get united.

Pakistan suffers from yet another dilleama which India does not suffer i.e. domination of One particular Group i.e. Punjab. In India, though the Hindi-speakers are in maximum numbers,as a group, but they themselves are in minority. Hindi is the mother-tongue of about 35% of Indians, 65% Indians are Non-Hindi speakers. The total parliamentary seats shared by Hindi-speaking states in about 220 or so, well short of majority of 272. Further, non-hindi speakers are more in numbers than Hindi-speakers in Army, Government and business. This makes India a successful working alliance of different peoples having different History, culture, languages and background.

Punjabis, in Pakistan, are now more than 50% of its population(I understand). The only other worthy comptetitor to them is Sindh, which in itself is too powerless. Its share is Pakistan Army is negligible. Stripped of power from all sides, the non-punjabis in Pakistan are bound to feel uneasy.

Pakistan does not seem likely to get out of its quagmire on the basis of theories and discussions. Only a strong leader like Mao Ze Dong, Lenin or own very own Indira Gandhi can turn the tide to its favour. If such a leader does not appear in the next 5-10 years, Pakistan will not be able to get out of the cesspool its has created for itself.

#41, you write <<< and, on side note:-
When I say Pakistan is three centuries behind America, I mean not only progress, but, also Paki society is much too, backwards , when it comes to be civil and to be moral. >>>


Nonsense again, how come the “land of the free” has the biggest prison population in the world and the highest rate of prisoners per capita of all countries ? Please explain how that translates into ``civil and moral`` and the over 1 million rapes of women each year and the fact that 4 to 5 million women are battered blue and black every year in the US.

I think we should run as far away from this ``progress`` as possible, three hundred years is too narrow a gap, I want further distance between myself and such ``progress``.

#47, you write <<< Suicide rates may be higher. American seniors live longer due to better medical treatment for heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, cancer etc. They live happier inspite of divorces, living away from kids etc. People live routinely in the 80s and 90s. It is very easy to be lonely when all the people around you start dying. >>>

You are wrong. The discussion was comparative, young vs old. Now if you control for class when comparing Pakistani/Indian vs American seniors, the Pakistanis would win hands down simply because in the US status is assigned based upon position in the economic institution while in more traditional societies it is assigned based upon other criteria. As a result, suicide rates for white males- those that benefit MOST from the US system peak at old ages, while those for Black males- those that are exculded from the system peak at YOUNG ages.

Now, mortality rates for people making less than 9K a year in the US (and there are millions of them) are three times that for those making 25K or more- similar is the prevalence of some of the diseases you mention. And what about the over 46million that have zero health insurance? You have to disaggregate and control for comparisons to be meaningful.

bbabu...

The attempt was to force Pakistan to ``see its folly`` and return back to the fold.... it won`t ever happen.

The 55 crores of rupees issue is also related to this... or are you telling me that the constant ahsan-jatana of Gandhi`s ultimate sacrifice for Pakistan is just a drama?

as i have said before, baluch situation is a child`s play for the army compared to the insurgency in karachi. as a reminder of those events, check out the amnesty report on karachi. situation actually got worse after this report and karachi only returned to normalcy after rangers stepped in and taught mqm karkun a lesson. this is also the reason why criminal political elements in pak are screaming murder over baluchistan. they are afraid that success of army operation will mean that same danda will be to them. we can only wait

also noteworthy that army succeeded by applying tactics opposite of that recommended by a.i.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330011996?open&of=ENG-PAK

PAKISTAN
Human rights crisis in Karachi

...The organization has received reports of hundreds of cases of unlawful detention, torture, deaths in custody, extrajudicial executions and ``disappearances``, mainly in Karachi, but also in other cities of the province. According to official figures, some 1,770 people were killed in Karachi in 1995; these include members of different political parties, law enforcement personnel and apolitical residents of Karachi, including women and children.

While law enforcement personnel appear to be responsible for some of these human rights violations, there is strong evidence that armed opposition groups have also perpetrated torture, hostage-taking and killings in Karachi.

masadi #44

`` Really, then how come the suicide rates for white males peak at old ages in USA? When worth in a society is based on value in the work place, ageism, is a much bigger issue than a more traditional society like Pakistan. So #40 what you state is nonsense. ``

Comparing India-Pakistan with America on living standards and quality of life for seniors is plain silly. If you have a gripe against American foreign policy and other aspects of American polity please do express yourself.

Suicide rates may be higher. American seniors live longer due to better medical treatment for heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, cancer etc. They live happier inspite of divorces, living away from kids etc. People live routinely in the 80s and 90s. It is very easy to be lonely when all the people around you start dying.

Mantolives #45

`` The fact of the matter is that all estimates show that some 7 million Muslims moved West (and also into East Pakistan) while 3 million Hindus and Sikhs made their way to India.... so lets be fair...

The murder and mayhem as well as uprooting that took place was primarily because India`s first govenor general Mountbatten refused to deploy the Boundary Commission Force despite repeated appeals by Pakistan`s governor-general-in-waiting ... Mountbatten responded to 10 Jinnah letters saying that he did not have ``the report`` that would allow him to deploy the troops... a report that Jinnah knew had been with Mountbatten since mid-July...

The obvious conclusion is that the whole uprooting and mayhem was deliberately created so that 7 million refugees would put additional pressure on Pakistan and literally cripple it at the onset... India`s First Governor General was in bed with Nehru... and therefore it was possible.``

If Nehru and Governor General wanted to destroy Pakistan they could declare war on Pakistan. How long could Pakistan resist a much larger Indian state ? Do you think Pakistan was ever prepared to fight a war longer than 3 weeks ?

Yes... Veeresh... you think it was unilateral... you would given your ignorance and consumption of high quality Desai beer...

The fact of the matter is that all estimates show that some 7 million Muslims moved West (and also into East Pakistan) while 3 million Hindus and Sikhs made their way to India.... so lets be fair...

The murder and mayhem as well as uprooting that took place was primarily because India`s first govenor general Mountbatten refused to deploy the Boundary Commission Force despite repeated appeals by Pakistan`s governor-general-in-waiting ... Mountbatten responded to 10 Jinnah letters saying that he did not have ``the report`` that would allow him to deploy the troops... a report that Jinnah knew had been with Mountbatten since mid-July...

The obvious conclusion is that the whole uprooting and mayhem was deliberately created so that 7 million refugees would put additional pressure on Pakistan and literally cripple it at the onset... India`s First Governor General was in bed with Nehru... and therefore it was possible.

#40 you write <<< American elders are in much better condition than their Paki counterparts. They live in their own freedom, freedom of independence >>>

Really, then how come the suicide rates for white males peak at old ages in USA? When worth in a society is based on value in the work place, ageism, is a much bigger issue than a more traditional society like Pakistan. So #40 what you state is nonsense.

Author says in his summation that . . . ````only by working together and with a spirit of reconciliation and sacrifice can we build a ``more perfect union``.````

More than half-a-century ago, Pakistan threw out large segments of its productive population to try and build something better. That in itself was the first wrong step. In other words, the basic foundations of Pakistan were flawed.

But that is now in the past. Pakistan has had enough time to fix its pillars and foundations. But it does not seem to have.

On the other hand, to a large extent, those it threw out are doing better than they would have if they had hung around. Therefore, the first reconciliation Pakistan must do is with the descendants of those thrown out so brutally. It leads from there then that their success will devolve back to Pakistan, too, in the spirit of mutul forgiveness and reconciliation.

Maybe Pakistan needs to analyse this, and learn from it?

Like India -- Pakistan`s territorial integrity lies in Democracy and only in Democracy -- NOT army dictatorship -- Army rule lost East Pakistan -- army rule is hell bent on fracturing Balochistan now.

regarding KBD -- building KBD with real democracy -- with consent from three opposing provinces -- whatever the decision may be to build or not to build -- NOT by a ONE-MAN army ruler -- with a rump `parliament` in his pocket -- who instead of managing the Kashmir catastrophe -- is busy establishing the `government writ`` over Balochistan now -- the kind of writ General Tikka Khan established in East Pakistan.

how many times the army wants to reconquer Pakistan and its provinces -- losing Bengal is apparently not enough...

and, on side note:-
When I say Pakistan is three centuries behind America, I mean not only progress, but, also Paki society is much too, backwards , when it comes to be civil and to be moral.

and, America gives every support to it`s elders. American elders are in much better condition than their Paki counterparts. They live in their own freedom, freedom of independence. Now, don`t tell me, they are not being respected. No, they are the ones who are being respected and love the most. They are the ones, who have every facility possible with out hurting their ego. They are well respected by their kids, grand kids and by their own state. Hats off to american great system for elders.