Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

re: Manto`s post
(The great thing of the 1973 constitution is that it leaves enough room for movement in any direction... it can very easily become a French-style Republican parliamentary democracy or even go towards Westminster style democracy... it can very easily move towards a pluralist modern relatively secular state with some sprinkling of Islam... or it can become a more conservatively Islamic theocratic state....)
The great thing about 1973 constitution is that it does not exist in 2006!
The great dictator of Pakistan, General Musharraf rules over the land and is ably guided by USA with China looking over his shoulders.
Talking of a constitution when the nation is ruled by a dictator is like a whore talking about chastitiy. It does not ring true.
Sridhar

re: Musharraf and the present consitution of Pak
In a controversial referendum in April 2002, Musharraf became the
the self- appointed democratic leader of Pak.
In i think Aug 2002, Gen. Pervez Musharraf unilaterally changed Pakistan`s Constitution with amendments that expanded his control of the country he took over by coup in 1999. These
Legal framework order 2002 as they are called, put a stamp of Musharraf`s authority.

As per the new amendmends, he gave himself powers to make further amendments at will and allow him to dissolve the elected Parliament and appoint the country`s military chiefs and Supreme Court justices. The changes also institutionalized the political role of the military in politics by allotting it some seats in the National Security Council.
The constitution of Pak does not reflect the will of the people. How can it be so when the ruler of the land is a dictator and military rule is paramount and overrides the powers of the elected rulers.
Sridhar

Rsidar: `` why not apply self-determination uniformly across the board and say that even Sindh, Balochistan, NWFP need to have self-determination and allowed to secede``

Because only a minority in Balochistan wants to have their demands met. They certainly don`t even want to break away. Their forefathers themselves opted for Pakistan. None of these things are true in the case of Kashmiris. Pakistan did not invade Balochistan or Sind.

Taking a class in logic and history might help you.

And even if they exercised self-determination, they would still stick with Pakistan. India cannot dare to do the same.

Not dare to hold a plebscite in Kashmir, that is.

re: #35-37 by xosmanx
(Because only a minority in Balochistan wants to have their demands met. They certainly don`t even want to break away. Their forefathers themselves opted for Pakistan. None of these things are true in the case of Kashmiris. Pakistan did not invade Balochistan or Sind.)
How do u know what the Balochis want? You can know that only if u have a referendum.
The problem seems very deep rooted. Balochistan may prove to be Pak`s Vietnam.
Sridhar

#24 alibirmingham
Sir, I don`t hate any country. Yes, I do criticise , if, I see their is corruption going on in any country or community.
Pakistan is #1 corrupt country in the world. And, don`t tell me that I am wrong. It is the very fact. You`re saying Pakistan has morality, family values, respect for elders, culture.

Lets talk about each one of them and their prevalence in Paki society.
1:-Morality, yes, that is the main reason Pakistani society is # 1 in corruption. Which is the reflection of great morality.

2:-family values, yes, family values where majority of people hate eachother living in combined family system, which raise more chaos, than living independently.

3:-respect for elders, No more, elders are being mentally and physically abused at the hands of their own kids. They are victims of insecurities, if, they are poor. They don`t have any Govt. system to support them. There is NO family or social support system for them. They are being tortured daily by their kids and grand kids and they die in their own miseries.

4:- culture, yes, cross culture from India or some mexican culture with lil mixed up of Arabs. Where is your culture? Yes, a culture of bribery, lies, greed, thefts, and bombing innocent poor citizens.

Pakistan is a failed state with NO values left . Pakistan has failed to give respect to it`s citizens. When a state fails to give protection an dbasic rights to it`s own citizens equally , that is failed state, for sure.

and, America gives every support to it`s elders. American elders are in much better condition than their Paki counterparts. They live in their own freedom, freedom of independence. Now, don`t tell me, they are not being respected. No, they are the ones who are being respected and love the most. They are the ones, who have every facility possible with out hurting their ego. They are well respected by their kids, grand kids and by their own state. Hats off to american great system for elders.

and, on side note:-
When I say Pakistan is three centuries behind America, I mean not only progress, but, also Paki society is much too, backwards , when it comes to be civil and to be moral.

Like India -- Pakistan`s territorial integrity lies in Democracy and only in Democracy -- NOT army dictatorship -- Army rule lost East Pakistan -- army rule is hell bent on fracturing Balochistan now.

regarding KBD -- building KBD with real democracy -- with consent from three opposing provinces -- whatever the decision may be to build or not to build -- NOT by a ONE-MAN army ruler -- with a rump `parliament` in his pocket -- who instead of managing the Kashmir catastrophe -- is busy establishing the `government writ`` over Balochistan now -- the kind of writ General Tikka Khan established in East Pakistan.

how many times the army wants to reconquer Pakistan and its provinces -- losing Bengal is apparently not enough...

Author says in his summation that . . . ````only by working together and with a spirit of reconciliation and sacrifice can we build a ``more perfect union``.````

More than half-a-century ago, Pakistan threw out large segments of its productive population to try and build something better. That in itself was the first wrong step. In other words, the basic foundations of Pakistan were flawed.

But that is now in the past. Pakistan has had enough time to fix its pillars and foundations. But it does not seem to have.

On the other hand, to a large extent, those it threw out are doing better than they would have if they had hung around. Therefore, the first reconciliation Pakistan must do is with the descendants of those thrown out so brutally. It leads from there then that their success will devolve back to Pakistan, too, in the spirit of mutul forgiveness and reconciliation.

Maybe Pakistan needs to analyse this, and learn from it?

#40 you write <<< American elders are in much better condition than their Paki counterparts. They live in their own freedom, freedom of independence >>>

Really, then how come the suicide rates for white males peak at old ages in USA? When worth in a society is based on value in the work place, ageism, is a much bigger issue than a more traditional society like Pakistan. So #40 what you state is nonsense.

Yes... Veeresh... you think it was unilateral... you would given your ignorance and consumption of high quality Desai beer...

The fact of the matter is that all estimates show that some 7 million Muslims moved West (and also into East Pakistan) while 3 million Hindus and Sikhs made their way to India.... so lets be fair...

The murder and mayhem as well as uprooting that took place was primarily because India`s first govenor general Mountbatten refused to deploy the Boundary Commission Force despite repeated appeals by Pakistan`s governor-general-in-waiting ... Mountbatten responded to 10 Jinnah letters saying that he did not have ``the report`` that would allow him to deploy the troops... a report that Jinnah knew had been with Mountbatten since mid-July...

The obvious conclusion is that the whole uprooting and mayhem was deliberately created so that 7 million refugees would put additional pressure on Pakistan and literally cripple it at the onset... India`s First Governor General was in bed with Nehru... and therefore it was possible.

Mantolives #45

`` The fact of the matter is that all estimates show that some 7 million Muslims moved West (and also into East Pakistan) while 3 million Hindus and Sikhs made their way to India.... so lets be fair...

The murder and mayhem as well as uprooting that took place was primarily because India`s first govenor general Mountbatten refused to deploy the Boundary Commission Force despite repeated appeals by Pakistan`s governor-general-in-waiting ... Mountbatten responded to 10 Jinnah letters saying that he did not have ``the report`` that would allow him to deploy the troops... a report that Jinnah knew had been with Mountbatten since mid-July...

The obvious conclusion is that the whole uprooting and mayhem was deliberately created so that 7 million refugees would put additional pressure on Pakistan and literally cripple it at the onset... India`s First Governor General was in bed with Nehru... and therefore it was possible.``

If Nehru and Governor General wanted to destroy Pakistan they could declare war on Pakistan. How long could Pakistan resist a much larger Indian state ? Do you think Pakistan was ever prepared to fight a war longer than 3 weeks ?

masadi #44

`` Really, then how come the suicide rates for white males peak at old ages in USA? When worth in a society is based on value in the work place, ageism, is a much bigger issue than a more traditional society like Pakistan. So #40 what you state is nonsense. ``

Comparing India-Pakistan with America on living standards and quality of life for seniors is plain silly. If you have a gripe against American foreign policy and other aspects of American polity please do express yourself.

Suicide rates may be higher. American seniors live longer due to better medical treatment for heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, cancer etc. They live happier inspite of divorces, living away from kids etc. People live routinely in the 80s and 90s. It is very easy to be lonely when all the people around you start dying.

as i have said before, baluch situation is a child`s play for the army compared to the insurgency in karachi. as a reminder of those events, check out the amnesty report on karachi. situation actually got worse after this report and karachi only returned to normalcy after rangers stepped in and taught mqm karkun a lesson. this is also the reason why criminal political elements in pak are screaming murder over baluchistan. they are afraid that success of army operation will mean that same danda will be to them. we can only wait

also noteworthy that army succeeded by applying tactics opposite of that recommended by a.i.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330011996?open&of=ENG-PAK

PAKISTAN
Human rights crisis in Karachi

...The organization has received reports of hundreds of cases of unlawful detention, torture, deaths in custody, extrajudicial executions and ``disappearances``, mainly in Karachi, but also in other cities of the province. According to official figures, some 1,770 people were killed in Karachi in 1995; these include members of different political parties, law enforcement personnel and apolitical residents of Karachi, including women and children.

While law enforcement personnel appear to be responsible for some of these human rights violations, there is strong evidence that armed opposition groups have also perpetrated torture, hostage-taking and killings in Karachi.