Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

re:#59 by faisaluno
Did not Pakis vote for Nawaz Sharief with an overwhelming 2/3rds majority? was that voting rigged too, just like your dictator`s referendum?
Why do u complain after electing a leader with such a large majority? If he did something wrong, the correct way is to throw him out of office in the next election. Surely, this is no reason for Army coup!
Sridhar

re:#56 by xosmanx
(No, Sir, I diasgree. We did not have a referendum in India before partition but a majority of people wanted Independence.)
Again, that is just a speculation. Only a referendum would have showed if majority muslims in India had wanted independence. Do u have any muslims in Pak who migrated from the South in large numbers? Basically, the muslim elite of North India decided on the issue of Pakistan and conveniently moved to that country to preserve the status quo viz feudal system, other previleges. No wonder Sindhis, Baluchis, even people of NWFP are not happy, with complete Punjabi domination hurting their interests.
Quoting GBS does not impress anyone. This quote was perhaps speciall meant for Pakis, most of who live in the world of their own making.
Sridhar

rozaiba man, here is a word of advice: if you want to avoid looking like a fool, dont posting on chowk while high on charas. if 90`s was a decade of limited democracy, please explain how nawaz sharif managed to fire the following leading lights of the establishment?

i. the chief of army
ii. the president of pakistan
iii. the head of supreme court

also can you point to the source which leads you to assert that pak`s growth has been financed by loans from uncle sam? according to the following imf report (pg 92), pak`s foreign currency (fcy) debt has been stable since mush came to power. also fyi, pak`s fcy debt in the decade of democracy doubled from around us$20bn to us$40bn before default under ns. your statement therefore that pak did not have excess to external funding is false as well. also your comparison of nyse and pak is nonsensical and does not merit a response.

as for surviving without democracy, here is a list of countries that did fine without it:

chile, china, korea, taiwan, thailand, spain, portugal, turkey

i dont need to say any more on democracy cause furqh saaf zahir hai

link to the imf report:

http://imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2005/cr05408.pdf

and as a bonus, a profile of an another military man who was smart enough not to believe in the supremacy of a dum-ass constitution:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990823/park1.html

At the end of a long silence, I asked Park if he ever compared himself to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey. The President shifted his heavy gaze to the questioner, contemplating him as a rattlesnake might look upon a mouse. After a pause, he replied, ``I do not know much about Kemal Pasha, but I would like to do for Korea what he did for Turkey--make it economically strong and militarily secure.``

_ _ _ As it turned out, he was just the man Korea needed. In 1961, per-capita income in South Korea was less than $100 a year. North Korea, with mineral resources and an industrial base, was regarded as the stronger power on the peninsula.

_ _ _Recognizing the need for large infusions of foreign capital, Park took the vital but highly unpopular step of normalizing diplomatic relations with Japan. This sparked campus demonstrations in Seoul in 1964, and Park responded by imposing martial law until quiet was restored. Normalization with Japan was achieved in 1965, bringing with it $800 million in economic aid.

_ _ _The 1972 yushin (revitalizing reforms) system was a swing back to authoritarianism. Many political leaders were arbitrarily arrested, and the security apparatus entered its most draconian period, putting down dissent and becoming infamous for its use of torture. (Kim Dae Jung escaped arrest only because he was out of the country.) Park was fortifying his political base in preparation for an attempt to establish a dialogue with North Korea.

_ _ _South Korea is full of monuments to Park Chung Hee, from the giant steel mills, shipyards and factories he built, to the superhighway system he launched. All are reminders of the man who, more than any other, made South Korea what it is today in economic terms.

So the constitution which is Pakistan`s only real chance at unity is ``dumbass``

Wonderful logic.

manto, thats your opinion. i dont agree with it. and it seems to me that other pakistanis are not enamoured of the constitution either. otherwise they would have done something to save it. as things stand now, 1973 constitution in its original form will not see the light of day.

mohsin hamid of the moth smoke fame wrote in time about his visit to gwader. his comments on people causing the law and order problems are particularly interesting:

:...Trade has brought them increased prosperity and access to goods they could not previously afford. That may not be the paradise I had in mind, the sanitized and glamorous paradise of a world-class tourist resort. But it is certainly a kind of paradise nonetheless, something for which most of Asia`s billions pray every day.

...I ask him what he thinks of the plans for Gwadar`s future. ``We are very happy,`` he tells me. ``Here there has been no development for so long. We don`t even have a hospital. Pakistan had forgotten about us. But now things are changing.``

I remember walking along the beach a few days earlier and seeing the shattered glass that marked the site of the recent car bombing. I ask Babu why, if the people of Gwadar are so happy about the project, someone targeted the Chinese. ``It was not one of us,`` he says. ``But outsiders sometimes come. Strange people from Afghanistan and Peshawar and Islamabad. They do not come for business. We do not know why they are here. But I know that we did not do this thing to the Chinese.``

He invites me to his home for lunch, and I eat with the men of his family. I ask them about reports I have read that tribal leaders in Baluchistan are opposed to the development of Gwadar, because they fear it will only benefit non-Baluch outsiders. They admit that this is true for some of the inland Baluch tribes, but not for the people of Gwadar itself. That said, they also tell me that they are disappointed that locals have so far been given few jobs. ``We want other Pakistanis to come here and invest,`` Babu says. ``But we should not be excluded. It will not be fair to us if outsiders buy all our land and leave us without work.``

also these bla fuc***s killed three chinese engineers much in the same manner as jehadis killed daniel pearl. yet the daily times crowd who want us to do matum everytime pearl`s name comes up want us to give freedom of pak to killers of people who are our best friend. really makes my blood boil::

``... car bomb has killed three Chinese engineers in Gwadar. The Pakistanis in the lounge are expressing their gratitude for the work the Chinese are doing and for their decision to persevere despite the attack. ``Pakistan, China, good friends,`` a middle-aged Chinese man says to an elderly Pakistani, who looks pleased to hear it. I am pleased, too. Pakistan`s friends are few and far between these days. Much of the world seems to look on our country with a mixture of suspicion and fear. But these Chinese engineers appear calm, professional and not in the least resentful or hostile.``

Mantolives #49

`` The attempt was to force Pakistan to ``see its folly`` and return back to the fold.... it won`t ever happen.

The 55 crores of rupees issue is also related to this... or are you telling me that the constant ahsan-jatana of Gandhi`s ultimate sacrifice for Pakistan is just a drama? ``

Pakistan has never had the capacity to fight a long drawn war with India. If Indian leaders were maniacs like some of the ones that ruled Pakistan they could launch a war similar to Iran-Iraq war or Ethiopia-Eritea war.

Pakistan cannot fight India in an allout war. Even with nukes Pakistan cannot withstand a allout first strike. The only thing restraining India is the world reaction and damage to its own economy.

#62, the author, you write <<< You may disagree with my comparison. But to take one sentence out of my article (that too a qualified one) and, on the basis of that, reject the entire argument is, I believe, unfair to the argument that I think stands. >>>

Two arguments implied by your article are clear

1. Pakistan is at the same point in its history as the US was over 200 years back , you state this explicitly in the last paragraph ``What was true of American states in the 1770s and 80s is true for Pakistani provinces today

2. Pakistan should emulate the US if it wants its union to survive.

1 is inaccurate and 2 is a very bad recommendation. I have made both of my contentions quite clear in my previous posts.

a serious question. manto, how long was constitution of 1973 actually practiced? was it in practice in 90`s democracy years?

faisaluno #68

`` _ _ _ As it turned out, he was just the man Korea needed. In 1961, per-capita income in South Korea was less than $100 a year. North Korea, with mineral resources and an industrial base, was regarded as the stronger power on the peninsula.

_ _ _Recognizing the need for large infusions of foreign capital, Park took the vital but highly unpopular step of normalizing diplomatic relations with Japan. This sparked campus demonstrations in Seoul in 1964, and Park responded by imposing martial law until quiet was restored. Normalization with Japan was achieved in 1965, bringing with it $800 million in economic aid. ``

1. South Korea is a homogeneous state. Pakistan is not.

2. South Korea is influenced by best of Chinese, Japanese and American cultures - three vibrant cultures. Pakistan seems to get the worst of pre-Islamic Indian culture, Wahabi ideology and Pusthun culture.

3. Other than keeping an eye on North Korea South Koreans are dedicated to economic development. Pakistan has never been. It has been about enrichment of the elite, military rule, manipulation of the masses and fighting with India.

re:#72 by bbabu
(The only thing restraining India is the world reaction and damage to its own economy. )
And, democracy.
Everytime Pak attacked India, it was ruled by a dictator.
Sridhar

rsridhar #76

`` (The only thing restraining India is the world reaction and damage to its own economy. )
And, democracy.
Everytime Pak attacked India, it was ruled by a dictator.
Sridhar ``

Democracies care about the reaction of the civilized world. Powerful dictators rarely do.

Faisal man, you must be an art major or something. Your lame arguments on economic comparison are reflective of a non-economic background.

Which country ensured the security of South Korea? Which country gave South Korean products unlimited market access? What country still has nearly 40,000 troops stationed in Korea?

For most of his rule (and especially for the first ten years), Park had the flexibility to channel most of the resources for economic development projects with America’s defense machinery at his back. Economics is all about opportunity costs – and not having to dedicate money for defense is always a big plus.

You can fool your fauji-loving freaks but you can’t fool everyone.

Pakistan after its worst tragedy (the earthquake) since 1971 won’t even consider forgoing military hardware purchases! One can argue it cannot. However, with this consideration in mind, it becomes all the more imperative that Pakistan give top priority to the constitution and institution building.

Again, I know I shouldn’t be arguing with art majors who think they can become like Korea with 1/10th the leadership ability, 1/100th the funds, and 1/1000th the vision.

You stupidity, comparisons and lack of history was always surprising.

Your fascination with growth numbers are probably better suited to the 70’s Iran when under the Shah Iran grew in double digits (and even managed to control inflation)- for ten years! Yet we all know the results of that fantastic growth rate. People were extremely happy and loved the Shah :D

Yes Manto, the constitution is dumb-sass :D such words were common in the 60`s - another decade with great love for the 6% growth rates.

Pakistan`s territorial integrity....a reality or a mirage.

Check it out here

Manto, Your favourites Ms. Ayesha Jalal and Aitzaz ``Indus`` Ahsan also find a place there.