Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

re: faisaluno`s various posts
It is indeed stupidity to believe that South Korea could have developed without extensive military and financial aid from USA even as it is utter stupidity to believe that Pak can even exist for long without a constitution.
The following Link provides some insight. Author makes comparison with Phillipines but it is still relevant to the current discussion.
Excerpt:
(The most important period in South Korea`s development began after the fall of the regime of Syngman Rhee in 1960. General Park Chung Hee, who took over in a military coup in 1961, instituted a process of economic reform. He devalued the currency, reformed interest rates, imposed tighter fiscal policies, lowered trade barriers, and, especially, put in place a number of incentives to encourage exports. In many ways, South Korea`s exports were the central driver of its successful development. The government has maintained a relatively open, market-based economy ever since. In addition, the government has been stable and a competent administrator, with only relatively modest amounts of corruption.

Foreign aid after 1960 contributed to South Korea`s successful development. It provided an extra pool of capital that the economy used for saving and investment. The Agency for International Development (AID) provided extensive technical support to the officials and agencies responsible for South Korea`s export drive. U.S. military aid helped Korea with its defense needs and thus possibly freed up some resources that could be used for development rather than for the military. Foreign assistance also helped improve South Korea`s health, education, and agriculture sectors. )
Sridhar

#86, Zeena, I`ll be ignorning your rant since it is weak on substance and strong on rhetoric. When I talk about a ``more traditional society``, I am talking about a gameinschaft versus a gesellschaft, I am not talking about specific ``traditions`` of which there are many in Pakistan even though you deny it. In 1967 the elderly poverty rate in America was twice that of the country as a whole, and even today, if Social Security is not counted as a factor- and your capitlist friends ``the American dream`` advertisers have never ceased to fight against this ``socialist`` program, over half of the elderly would fall into poverty. Elderly poverty affects mostly women that are 58% of the elderly population but 74% of the elderly poor.

So, instead of arguing from ignorance and, argue based upon facts.

Respectfully submitted,

#98 masadi
OK, here are the facts.
Pakistan has emerged as the poorest, most illiterate, malnourished and least elder sensitive region, in the world, where majority elders are being abused physically and mentally. Where very less people can reach the age of 60-65 years, b/c of lack of health and lack of social support system for elders.

Where, majority of youth is jobless and frustrated and if, they are unable to take care of themselves, how can they build a healthy social and care system for their elders, very few of them reach really elder age of 70 and above. So, technically, there are very less elderly in Pakistan,b/c of mal treatment and mal nourishment, they die at an earlier age.

faisaluno #94

`` you are so clueless that you don’t even understand your own posts. either that or you are being deliberately deceitful which is very uncool and definitely not funny. ``

To be be fair you were the one who compared Pakistan to dictatorships in Korea, Taiwan, China, Singapore etc. You forgot to mention dictatorships in Indonesia, Philippines, North Korea, Burma etc.

`` iii. uncle sam had more troops in philippines than in korea. in fact philippines for a pretty long time was a colony of the u.s. if defensive support of u.s. is necessary for development, can you please explain why korea developed while philippines is a third world backwater like pakistan? ``

US had a much bigger military footprint in Korea compared to Philippines. It is not just the number of troops. Philippines is not exactly a success story. Ever since the toppling of Marcos in 1985 it has never been a basketcase begging for debt forgiveness.

`` iv. uncle sam bailed out mexico in mid 90’s and uncle sam has preferential trade arrangement with mexico something it does not have with korea. can you please explain why mexican economy has continued to under perform relative to korea? ``

Mexicans are less educated compared to South Koreans.

`` there is actually more but i will wait until i get point by point rebuttal. btw, i also mentioned other countries which developed under military dictatorship including chile, spain portugal and thailand. care to shed some light on that? ``

Spain has not been a dictatorship since Franco`s death in 1975. Ditto for Portugal since the 1974. Greece, Spain and Portugal benefit from tens of millions of North European tourists who want to sunbathe in sunny beaches. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid from wealthy North European states. Being part of the EU and NATO helps in terms of overall stability.

Thailand has never been a classic dictatorship. It is a monarchy similar to Nepal. Chile has benefited from market policies and military dictatorship - one of the few successes in Latin America.

#99, you again speak out of ignornace. To prove your point you need to prove that the condition of the elderly compared to the young are significantly worse off as compared to the young/elderly dichotomy in the US. Then controlling for differences in wealth and class you have to prove that those differences still exist. You have done neither and just presented a stereotypical rant which by itself is also erroneous.

#101, you asked me to speak the facts. Now, i did and you can`t take that. tsk, tk,tsk.

#102, you didn`t speak ``facts``. You are not at the liberty to claim rhetoric as ``facts``. Even the crude measure that you were alluding to, the US life expectancy was off by several years. Very clumsy analysis.

#103
And, you are at all the liberty to prove your delusional false statements, the fact??
Haaaan, tsk,tsk,tsk
And, you have all the right to call my meaures crude, while forgetting, Pakistani system is the crudest in the world and that is not hidden from anyone. There is absolutely no comparasion between American and Paki system. It is same, if we start comparing slums with palaces to be equal.

#104, my case was not based on stereotypical rhetoric like yours, I presented facts which you can go and check up, just follow the posts. The human ``crudeness`` of Pakistanis is much more valuable than the plastic hypocrisy of the American elite- I`d pick the former over the latter any day. They smile at you with plastic smiles while in their hearts the hypocrites consider you less than human.

#105 Yes, you are very stereotypical in your false delusions attached with pak land. On the contrary, I am not. My experience with Pakis is , they are more hypocrites and they don`t respect basic human values and lives. That is the reason, Pakistan is #1 in corruption. Now, say it is not fact. I myself experienced , Pakis asking for bribes , the moment you step on Paki airports. Lies, bribes, dirty habits, double standards aka hypocrisy , flattery, cruelties, barbarism, belittling poors, making poors lives more miserable, oppression of women, miserable elders(if, any left). Snatching the rights from the righteous ones and giving it to the wrong ones is the common habits of Pakis. Show offs, greed, deciets, dishonesties all are Paki traits. That is the reason, the Paki culture sucks.

#106, thank you for revealing to us the ``sources`` of your ``facts``. You state, <<< ``My experience with Pakis is , they are more hypocrites and they don`t respect basic human values and lives. `` >>>

That is exactly why your response is based more upon stereotypical rather than scientific generalization. How many ``Pakis`` have you met in your life, 1000? 5000? How many of those have you known well? A couple of dozen? four dozen?. Now, did you pick this ``sample`` randomly. Did you adminster a scientific survey to them or done any kind of content analysis? If your answer is NO and it most certainly has to be NO if you`re truthful, then you are in no position to ``generalize`` based upon your personal experience for a nation of 160 million +. Bigotry feeds on stereotypes, give them up, and give up the official mythology of the ``land of the free``- that incarcerates more people per capita, as fact, than any other nation on earth.

I suggest that instead of posting nonsense here you show some respect to the author (even though I disagree with his article`s conclusions) and post things relevant to his original post, and grow up and learn some.

Respectfully submitted (as behram1 sahib states),
masadi.

#107
Oh, boy you seem realy, realy mad.Arright, you won this discussion. After all , It is American way to give charity to Pakis. So, I am donating you with my sympathies by pretending to surrender for your nonsense, ohhh, I apologise, (don`t bomb me by suicide bombing), i mean your very sensible analysis. Please, accept my charity with respect.

PS:- for your kind information, analysis is based perfectly upon personal experiences. Don`t you know that. It is the object`s subjectivity which makes analytical datas. So, if, you`re smart enough you will respect my personal experience more than what you read in some bogus news agencies or web sites.
Remember, research is made on individuals personal experiences, not, on some unknown species.

You`re being , too stereotypical and utopian here. Come out of your utopia and feel the facts. Again, don`t get angry, my dear friend. This is just the cyber space, not you actual home, where you can be angry at your own risk. Just kidding.

#108, weak on substance again and heavy on rhetoric.

Athar Ossama,

My final comment- bringing together the various points I have already raised. We must look at the whole issue in entirety.

United States of America, as a commonwealth of settlers, has a constitutional history spanning over 380 years starting with the Plymouth Plantation and the Puritan Commonwealth. I am a bit puzzled by your comparison with 1776 and 1789. If I was asked to compare our republic with any period in American history, it would be the Puritan commonwealth- which was a revolutionary idea at the time- brought about the dissenters against the church of England.... I would also compare Pakistan to Roger Williams` Providence and Rhode Island experiment... We certainly are a ``as a Citty upon a Hill, the eies of all people are uppon us``...

The first and foremost thing that have to accept is that the constitution of 1973 is the point we must proceed from... as pre-1973 beloned to another era... and post 1973 is the rape of Pakistan as a modern nation state.

Yours sincerely

YLH

Faisaluno

``manto, your post #92 reeks on religious emotionalism which is rather strange cause you claim to be a champion of rational analysis.``

What religious emotionalism? I said that despite my opposition to the second amendment declaring Ahmadis non-Muslims, I accept the constitutional process. How is that religious emotionalism? Another funny claim indeed.

``and for your claim that my post #92 is ``amazingly ignorant``, that claim will be easier for me to accept once you provide a point by point rebuttal to my post #90.``

The rebuttal flows from a simple point that your post 90 is so ignorant as to assume that the Supreme Court of Pakistan, which exists only by virtue of articles 176-191 of the Constitution of 1973, ``does not care about the constitution of Pakistan``. This shows your ignorance of the way law works. You did not give any real basis for your outrageous claim... which is why I found your claim very ignorant.

``and sure mush did not overturn the second amendment. but neither did bb or ns. mush however did over turn the separate electorate law. so in this he is one-up on democrats.``

1- BB and Nawaz didn`t over turn the second amendment because they did not have the popular support for it. What is Mush`s excuse- since he is the all powerful dictator of Pakistan?

2- The separate electorates were brought into the constitution by a Military dictator- General Zia-ul-Haq, through a highly dubious process. BB and NS were hardly in a position to undo this law... but had Democracy been allowed to work, it would ultimately have been changed- BB`s second government was planning on doing it but she was prematurely dismissed.

The question here is not whether second amendment stays or goes or whether voting is separate or together... it is quite possible that Nawaz Sharif would have turned Pakistan into a more blatant kind of theocracy... but that would have been through a process, and I as a secularist would accept it as the will of the people expressed by the constitution of 1973.

-YLH

re:#107 by masadi
Masadi dude,
You seem to be blinded by your hatred of America. Did u by any chance get your A$$ whipped in Guantanama Bay? That would explain everything.
You seem to suggest (from your post to Zeena) that you do not take personal views seriously. We are not writing a scientific paper on corruption in Pak (though one needs to be written on the subcontinent including India).
It is my personal experience that bureacracy in India is corrupt. I have narrated that experience in various posts before (in another forum) and i won`t repeat that here. No amount of statistics that says India does not have corrupt bureacrats will convince me. Our impressions are shaped by personal experiences.
Sridhar