Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

I am totally amazed at these desis that love America more than America loves itself~ and while doing so they follow the official mythology of the American elite rather than look at the masses who are given little or no benefits of a ``democracy``.

The article is off on atleast three counts

1. First the history of the US and India/Pakistan cannot be compared. The US started off as a mostly white `settler state`, an overseas extension or replica of the colonial power while we were a non-white ``colonial state`` . In a settler society the dominant culture, institutions and economic order is much different than a colonized society and the resulting history as a result is much different as well. Look at all the settler states and look at the colonized states and you can see how differently they have progressed. Neo colonization has maintained a more or less similar though much more centralized apartheid arrangement.

2. The author states <<< The American democratic experiment, despite all its short-comings--including a civil war after 70-odd years of declaring nationhood--represents one of the most happy if not the perfect union of several states in modern history, if not all human history. It is by far the one and only union of a continental scale that has strengthened with the passage of time while all others ( e.g. the Roman or Islamic empires) have dwindled and evaporated in thin air.>>>

This is exactly what I mean by a ``house slave`` mentality. His conclusion, worshiping the US is premature to say the least. The union has been very unueasy to say the least and the empire even more tenuous. It will not even last a fraction of the time that the Roman or Islamic empires lasted.

3. There is no substantive democracy in the US, there can never be in a society based upon purchasing power where 1% of the wealthiest controls more wealth than the rest of the 99% combined.

To the author, ``NO thank you``. Pakistan is already messed up because of being the ``most aligned`` of all states to the US, we do not need further emulation or alignment or our misery will only increase. We need to tell the American elite and the American facade of ``democracy`` to go to hell.

Athar Sahib {``What then is the solution for Pakistan`s interprovincial rivalries? ``}

You raise a very important and timely question for Pakistan. Unfortunately, the process of disintegration of the country started with the secession of BD and continues to this day with the arrogance of Pakistani Punjabis. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that anything founded on division is bound to terminate by division. Over and over again, history teaches us that Islam, despite what religious leaders and aspiring caliphs tell us, is not a sufficient basis of unity to form a nation-state. So, this country is bound to fail, because it is not based on natural reasons for statehood - ethnicity, language, economic reasons, democratic ideals, or a homogeneous population.

For the short term, I recommend splitting Punjab into at least three, if not four, provinces. India did something like that to East Punjab and the cutting down to size has been a positive experience for the residents and the nation. Good luck.

One more comment, Athar Sahib - The comparison to the American experience is rather irrelevant. There is no commitment to democracy, no zest for freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, and conscience - OK just the freedom to bear arms. :)

#2, you state <<< So, this country is bound to fail, because it is not based on natural reasons for statehood - ethnicity, language, economic reasons, democratic ideals, or a homogeneous population. >>>

The modern nation state system is artificial because it divides up territories based upon geographic boundaries and political/economic relationships- it is not only Pakistan but the entire modern nation state system. Islam has been used only as a rallying slogan in Pakistan and for sectarianism while its essence has been ignored. Its essence is a unifying force based upon common origin of humankind and one creator, something much wider than language and ethnicity and I would argue, much more natural because it bases its commonality on humanity- so I disagree with your characterization of Islam as unnatural. Take the uniformity of the human genetic code, something natural, much more natural than language and ethnicity which have social origins as well, but much more universal.

Why we see greater uniformity/lack of conflict in modern societies compared to developing nations is because with centralized means of communication and bureaucratization, cheerful robots are produced that totally lack freedom, hense the term ``mass society`` for people living in developed nations (to a greater or lesser degree). Homogeniety out of diversity due to bureaucratic adaptation. Not something very desirable.

Greater freedom of thought, and lesser implicit control results in greater conflict, which is also intensified by levels of deprivation- as we see in developing nations. So, yes my claim is that people in developing nations are much more freer than people in developed nations inspite of any explicit coersive control. If those developing nations get modernized following the American example as the author recommends, they will produce lesser conflict, greater inequality but much lesser substantive freedom: a society of cheerful morons- something that is not very desirable or humane. I pity the mass society in the ``developed`` world. While they celebrate their ``freedoms``, I see them and see totally controlled robots, moved in a push button fashion through mass mediated information~ regular short-time swings in polls whenever any ``news`` comes out reveals just such control.

This article is completely absurd. I wonder if the author is on drugs. The US was able to form a union because there was a collective commitment towards creating a constitution, implementing democratic institutions and basically giving a equal chance to everyone for participating in the administration.

How on earth can that be compared to Pakistan? In Pakistan, there is a commitment alright. It is a commitment to have permanent military rule by a army that is dominated by Punjabis. In the brief periods where democracy has been tried, as soon as the results are slightly uncomfortable for the army or the Punjabis, it has resulted in coups, prime ministers getting jailed and the constitution getting tossed into the garbage. In 1971, Pak army could not accept the democratic result and literally pushed Bangladesh out of the union.

The resources and administration of Pakistan is tightly controlled by one province and by a small coterie of people in that province. How can other provinces feel that they are also stakeholders in such a situation? They feel more like they are colonies who are getting exploited. No wonder they want to secede. Making emotional appeals is of no use. What you need is to establish a proper constitution and implement democratic institutions so that everyone can participate in the nation. Thats the only way to keep people together.

Other Osama..... you have done great job in presenting unity and necessity of that withoutn which we will have many more problems.
One of way to avoid problems is to appoint some investigation commission with due report in 15 years with possibility of 10 years extension for completing report, so things can cool little and problem can be left to future. At this time building dam will play in hands of Indians who are masterminding blow up of railtracks, power poles and pipelines. It is specially bad when China engrs are working in B.Stan. Sindh separting is not going to solve any problem as then indians and sindhis can make problems more can divert water to Sindh through india and enter in near southern punjab through Sindhi territory. Also after Indus biggest source of water is Kabul river. With our friends like indians and afghans we do not needs enemies. With indian encouragement Afghans are thinking of building dam with india providing loans. That can be daggar at heart of pakistans water problem.
Your points are correct of exploitation of some by others and it is going all world over does not mean divorce is needed, what is needed is therapy of what Jinnah gave Unity , Faith and discipline and belief in two distinct nations and Islamic unity in pakistan is overriding little tribal nationalism of Jiye sindh of BLA etc. We should respect whining and moaning of Sindhi nd balochi but they need to be told sindhi port or balochi gas and minerals are not property of only local people but is property of all pakistanis. And these are national assets and no body should be allowed to damage gas line, rail, and towers. Those who do shold be tried by military courts so justice swift and fast and final.
You have given good example of usa. We should follow that if they start to cede from pakistan they should be treated as law and order problem and traeted as criminal. Just like when in usa soouth wanted to go away they were invaded by dark skin lover from north same way all pakistani army should not allow sindi and baluchi ti indulge in antipakistani activities and they should be crushed with iron hand any thing less means same problems. Like cancer some times need cutting hard operation. And all should support army in liquidation of spittist tendancies once for all and teach lesson to them also send message to India not to indulge in internal problems in Pakistan or they should expect same in india only multiplied by factor of ten.
You have put good points. I support your thinking. It is good you did not take side of miserable wrekers and not support them like emerging leftist fools of pakistan.
good luck 2006

Masadi you appear to be anti america type and appear leftist to me, sorry but stronly feel you are lefist with radical attitude type kind of revolution type. We hate lefist and revolution wanting people as we do not want problems.
Good afternoon and good week ahead.

#7 you write <<< We hate lefist and revolution wanting people as we do not want problems. >>>

Maybe in your fairy-tale world Pakistan has no problems but the reality is that Pakistan faces tremendous problems as we speak, which are only going to increase in the coming years, and all these are not related to ``revolutionary leftists``.

All - ALL analysis that fail to take into account the 1973 constitution fail to have any substance.

Pakistan HAS - IT HAS - formed a consensus - a framework from which to proceed. Attempts to give `fresh starts` or redefine what this country should be are USELESS and prevent any process-oriented system from taking route.

I too have a vision of Pakistan. Where english is the primary language of education for all, where degrees have value, where religion has nothing to do with the state etc. etc.

Since this isn`t a nation of me, but of 150 million folks, we compromise. That compromise was done and settled in 1973! And it`s a beautiful thing!

What do ALL the supposedly `anti-Pakistani` elements want? Be it the Baluchis, the Pathans, the Sindhi nationalists - they ALL want the true implementation of the 1973 resolution. The 1973 constitution IS Pakistan. And we all know who exactly is preventing the country from becoming a nation!

As for Kalabagh, I think you should offer legitimate alternatives for not building Kalabagh dam. Bhasha Dam is not `substitute` alternative because it will HAVE to be built - Kalabagh or no Kalabagh. Almost all water analysts will tell you Pakistan doesn`t need one dam - it needs TWENTY large dams!

#6 by ahmedmadani on January 7, 2006 11:36pm PT


Other Osama


ROTFLMAO....

just like Other white meat

re Athar Osama

The first basic flaw in the article is it that completely overlooks the role and influence of economics in formenting the American revolution. The American revolution was not about breaking away politically from Great Britain per se, as it was being free of British economic control on the American colonies. The event of 1776, was when it became clear that only a political independence from Britain could ensure the freedom of trade and commerce for the colonies. Likewise, Lincoln declaring war on the south, was not to free the slaves, but to protect the economic cohesion of the union, as it existed in 1861.

Pakistan`s basic law is the 1973 constitution. The questions of federal power and in comparsion to the federal power, the rights of the provinces are clearly defined. The sharing of the power, was consensually argeed upon and it was, as far as Pakistan was concerned, a truly national document. Sadly, the constitution of 1973 was amended by Z. A. Bhutto even before the ink was dry on it and what Bhutto could not finish, Zia-ul-Haq mangled by a systematic abuse of power. Both these gentlemen, who should rot in hell, amended the constitution for the sake of personalizing power and concentrating it autocratically. The very nature of 1973 constitution was, thus, corrupted and with that political corruption of its original intent, an artifical imbalance was created between the federal power and provincial powers and the concurrent list, was ignored.

There is no sense of the smaller provinces ``appreciating`` the sacrifices of the larger province as you have said, because the present debate is not about appreciating Punjab. The present debate is about the restoration of the original intent and ideal of the 1973 constitution. It is about asking the center to live to its promise made in 1973 and to re-amend the consitution, as it was before the bloody hands of Bhutto and Zia jointly stabbed it to death via their amendments.

Kalabagh dam will be created and so will be others and in the process, there will be a revitalization of this debate. Pakistan has reached a political fail-safe point in the evolution of its political power and there is a growing realization that a compromise, will have to reached. There is no physically possible way for the center to push the Kalabagh dam, without the consent of the provinces and likewise; the provinces know that resistence to the center might be possible, but it will be fatal and futile to their own interests. The four provinces of Pakistan are intergrated as an economic unit and it is just not feasible for any one of them to remain economically viable without the others.

In the end, the saving grace will that though the politicans of Pakistan have yet to develop a national identity as a Pakistani, and are still enamoured of their provincial nostalgias, the peopel of Pakistan have one common identity; of a disenfranchised majority. Pakistan is slowly coming to terms with its territorial realities and though they may still be talks about the effacy of a ummah, the vast majority of people are starting to see each other as simply Pakistanis. With the advent of cable TV and easy access to communications, the barrier of provincialism has been breached and though the passage is not all smooth sailing yet, atleast the rudder is amidship.

Out of this crucible of bitterness, a new compromise will be reached based on the premise of more aware and politically asserative provinces and a center, which has shot its last bolt of power.

Ciao

Athar Ossama sahab....

The constitution of this Republic : 1973.

While its good to look at other countries and their constitutional development... and believe you me nothing is more attractive than looking at the rich constitutional history of the Americans especially that which led to ``Dred Scott case`` and its later reversal as examples of how nation states develop legally, morally, constitutionally- I must agree with Rozaiba.. I too believe in complete separation of church and state- but I recognise that this is not a nation of me - it has decided on a popular constitution which should be allowed to work without interference from dictators, armies etc....

The great thing of the 1973 constitution is that it leaves enough room for movement in any direction... it can very easily become a French-style Republican parliamentary democracy or even go towards Westminster style democracy... it can very easily move towards a pluralist modern relatively secular state with some sprinkling of Islam... or it can become a more conservatively Islamic theocratic state.... thus it is almost a level playing field for people to work with ... and it is a field I am willing to take a chance with...

-YLH

Contrary to what people assume..the `73 constitution besides the mutilated part by ZAB, ZIA, NS and Mush..also had some key provisions which were not implemented that were meant to resolve the issue of provincial rights..one was the pledged abolition of the concurrent list after 5 years..as well as the implementation of the order to separate judicial and executive powers. Now in this day and age of devolution of power one has to look at how even those provisions are insufficient.

The Government of India Act 1935 that Pakistan adopted as its first working
constitution gave the federation 96 items of powers. The 1956 constitution reduced
it to 49. This number was retained in the 1962 constitution but in 1973 it was
enlarged to a massive 114.

Kalabagh represents a systemic problem of a lack of understanding of the concept of a federation..constituent Units are equal to other units regardless of there size or opulation..that is why the federal system in the US or Canada works effectively the senate has actual powers ..there is no question of bbig brother sacrficing..these are accepted norms in a federal system. The double standards that were applied to the Bengalis are interesting..in arguments about the NFC between West and East Pakistan it was the ruling establishment which insisted population should not be a criteria..similarly despite not having any representation in the power matrix Bengalis gave up their population representation in exchange for parity..for the sake of Pakistan. The broader concepts of water distribution betray a lack of understanding of the concept of lower riparian water rights. Pakistans provinces..are a bit of a joke..what real power do they exercise..except for Sind..3 out of 4 are dependant on federal transfers..in baluchistans case because the federation has almost all tax collection power the province depends on Islamabad for 90% ..because Islamabad defaults on payments like gas royalty..the provincial government is forced to borrow again from the federal government to keep running..the situation is so bad that according to one estimate..In the case of Balochistan, the total debt (even without accounting for the massive liabilities for employees
provident fund payments, accrued gratuity entitlement and the pension liability built up over the years)
is 2.5 times total revenues (including transfers under the NFC Award)!

Contrary to what is assumed..it has been politicians who have signed some of pakistans more significant agreements..the 56 & 73 constitutions, the simla agreement,..the 1991 water accord..it is the failure of a respect for the rule of law that creates the issue...any guarantees offered by Musharraf are not worth the paper they are written on..

No constitutional system is perfect..the US system created the grounds for the US civil war..the Indian system which has developed positive democratic conventions ..has not been effective enough to channelise ethnic/religious resentment always...the British system failed in dealing with Scottish and Irish resentment..the Japanese system has an inability to reform itself and so on..what is the key is the development of some form of institutional credibility..a court system which may get it wrong but gets it right more often..

Zakkk,

Excellent points- especially about the concurrent list and politicians signing the most important documents... the 1991 water accord and the constitution of the republic in 1973.... Even Musharrafs harps on about the 1991 accord..

Pakistan has the institutions in place... but our people are impatient. I discussed at length the issue with some very bright and very educated IT professionals and all of them were a brickwall when it came to the issue of letting democracy work for a period of time. They claimed that they had already given a chance to NS and BB.... and before that to ZAB and nothing good came out of it... this is what is wrong - this thinking... democracies don`t become perfect government overnight.... Another even brighter professional, a gentleman who is on the list of the top 1000 SAP consultants in the world, informed me that that constitutions etc were all a grand jewish conspiracy to keep public opinion divided... and that I should read protocols of the elders of zion.

Manto and other........Most people who have never steped in court do not understand finer points. But that constitution is not good and gardians of book are not good. What that constitution has said about revolutionary changes ( like take over) or army powers etc? All times take over is conceded by supreme court judges. Also there should be discussion about what constitution says about military take overs. I am no knowledge of law but feel if constution is interpreated by judges from usa,britain etc nice lawful countries will be good. They can act as obstruction of coward judges of pakistan. We have problem of native judges they have no backbone to stand to army. Mo Zia said is right litle law book he can tear and nothing happens and pakistan is first and nobody can challenge. We can follow english constitution still there is no spirit of justice in Judges, its like pouring nice pure water in broken pot it will not hold.
Need of hour is justices at highest level from usa or uk who have nothing to loose by following book of law.
Dam is essential as karachi has water famine all time, what is point in allowing water flow to sea and waste.
Mr.Masadi I am opposed to revolution and left encouragement for poor people to riot and make problems like, jamming traffic, protests and stone throwing, carrying guns and creating terror use of bombs etc. Lots of people who are snatching purses from old ladies, pick pockets, always claim of poverty and have leftist attitude of robbing middleclass, rich and poor so they can have easy life. Left is trying to support insurgencies and giving lame excuses to ethinic terrorists. Left are not kind human people for them makng troubles is way of life and we do not want to have that type od people. China is leftist but they know how to deal with criminals last year they hanged 35,000 people and sure that country is exporting lots of goods to usa. We need to follow china.

Manto and other........Most people who have never steped in court do not understand finer points. But that constitution is not good and gardians of book are not good. What that constitution has said about revolutionary changes ( like take over) or army powers etc? All times take over is conceded by supreme court judges. Also there should be discussion about what constitution says about military take overs. I am no knowledge of law but feel if constution is interpreated by judges from usa,britain etc nice lawful countries will be good. They can act as obstruction of coward judges of pakistan. We have problem of native judges they have no backbone to stand to army. Mo Zia said is right litle law book he can tear and nothing happens and pakistan is first and nobody can challenge. We can follow english constitution still there is no spirit of justice in Judges, its like pouring nice pure water in broken pot it will not hold.
Need of hour is justices at highest level from usa or uk who have nothing to loose by following book of law.
Dam is essential as karachi has water famine all time, what is point in allowing water flow to sea and waste.
Mr.Masadi I am opposed to revolution and left encouragement for poor people to riot and make problems like, jamming traffic, protests and stone throwing, carrying guns and creating terror use of bombs etc. Lots of people who are snatching purses from old ladies, pick pockets, always claim of poverty and have leftist attitude of robbing middleclass, rich and poor so they can have easy life. Left is trying to support insurgencies and giving lame excuses to ethinic terrorists. Left are not kind human people for them makng troubles is way of life and we do not want to have that type od people. China is leftist but they know how to deal with criminals last year they hanged 35,000 people and sure that country is exporting lots of goods to usa. We need to follow china.