Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

All - ALL analysis that fail to take into account the 1973 constitution fail to have any substance.

Pakistan HAS - IT HAS - formed a consensus - a framework from which to proceed. Attempts to give `fresh starts` or redefine what this country should be are USELESS and prevent any process-oriented system from taking route.

I too have a vision of Pakistan. Where english is the primary language of education for all, where degrees have value, where religion has nothing to do with the state etc. etc.

Since this isn`t a nation of me, but of 150 million folks, we compromise. That compromise was done and settled in 1973! And it`s a beautiful thing!

What do ALL the supposedly `anti-Pakistani` elements want? Be it the Baluchis, the Pathans, the Sindhi nationalists - they ALL want the true implementation of the 1973 resolution. The 1973 constitution IS Pakistan. And we all know who exactly is preventing the country from becoming a nation!

As for Kalabagh, I think you should offer legitimate alternatives for not building Kalabagh dam. Bhasha Dam is not `substitute` alternative because it will HAVE to be built - Kalabagh or no Kalabagh. Almost all water analysts will tell you Pakistan doesn`t need one dam - it needs TWENTY large dams!

#6 by ahmedmadani on January 7, 2006 11:36pm PT


Other Osama


ROTFLMAO....

just like Other white meat

re Athar Osama

The first basic flaw in the article is it that completely overlooks the role and influence of economics in formenting the American revolution. The American revolution was not about breaking away politically from Great Britain per se, as it was being free of British economic control on the American colonies. The event of 1776, was when it became clear that only a political independence from Britain could ensure the freedom of trade and commerce for the colonies. Likewise, Lincoln declaring war on the south, was not to free the slaves, but to protect the economic cohesion of the union, as it existed in 1861.

Pakistan`s basic law is the 1973 constitution. The questions of federal power and in comparsion to the federal power, the rights of the provinces are clearly defined. The sharing of the power, was consensually argeed upon and it was, as far as Pakistan was concerned, a truly national document. Sadly, the constitution of 1973 was amended by Z. A. Bhutto even before the ink was dry on it and what Bhutto could not finish, Zia-ul-Haq mangled by a systematic abuse of power. Both these gentlemen, who should rot in hell, amended the constitution for the sake of personalizing power and concentrating it autocratically. The very nature of 1973 constitution was, thus, corrupted and with that political corruption of its original intent, an artifical imbalance was created between the federal power and provincial powers and the concurrent list, was ignored.

There is no sense of the smaller provinces ``appreciating`` the sacrifices of the larger province as you have said, because the present debate is not about appreciating Punjab. The present debate is about the restoration of the original intent and ideal of the 1973 constitution. It is about asking the center to live to its promise made in 1973 and to re-amend the consitution, as it was before the bloody hands of Bhutto and Zia jointly stabbed it to death via their amendments.

Kalabagh dam will be created and so will be others and in the process, there will be a revitalization of this debate. Pakistan has reached a political fail-safe point in the evolution of its political power and there is a growing realization that a compromise, will have to reached. There is no physically possible way for the center to push the Kalabagh dam, without the consent of the provinces and likewise; the provinces know that resistence to the center might be possible, but it will be fatal and futile to their own interests. The four provinces of Pakistan are intergrated as an economic unit and it is just not feasible for any one of them to remain economically viable without the others.

In the end, the saving grace will that though the politicans of Pakistan have yet to develop a national identity as a Pakistani, and are still enamoured of their provincial nostalgias, the peopel of Pakistan have one common identity; of a disenfranchised majority. Pakistan is slowly coming to terms with its territorial realities and though they may still be talks about the effacy of a ummah, the vast majority of people are starting to see each other as simply Pakistanis. With the advent of cable TV and easy access to communications, the barrier of provincialism has been breached and though the passage is not all smooth sailing yet, atleast the rudder is amidship.

Out of this crucible of bitterness, a new compromise will be reached based on the premise of more aware and politically asserative provinces and a center, which has shot its last bolt of power.

Ciao

Athar Ossama sahab....

The constitution of this Republic : 1973.

While its good to look at other countries and their constitutional development... and believe you me nothing is more attractive than looking at the rich constitutional history of the Americans especially that which led to ``Dred Scott case`` and its later reversal as examples of how nation states develop legally, morally, constitutionally- I must agree with Rozaiba.. I too believe in complete separation of church and state- but I recognise that this is not a nation of me - it has decided on a popular constitution which should be allowed to work without interference from dictators, armies etc....

The great thing of the 1973 constitution is that it leaves enough room for movement in any direction... it can very easily become a French-style Republican parliamentary democracy or even go towards Westminster style democracy... it can very easily move towards a pluralist modern relatively secular state with some sprinkling of Islam... or it can become a more conservatively Islamic theocratic state.... thus it is almost a level playing field for people to work with ... and it is a field I am willing to take a chance with...

-YLH

Contrary to what people assume..the `73 constitution besides the mutilated part by ZAB, ZIA, NS and Mush..also had some key provisions which were not implemented that were meant to resolve the issue of provincial rights..one was the pledged abolition of the concurrent list after 5 years..as well as the implementation of the order to separate judicial and executive powers. Now in this day and age of devolution of power one has to look at how even those provisions are insufficient.

The Government of India Act 1935 that Pakistan adopted as its first working
constitution gave the federation 96 items of powers. The 1956 constitution reduced
it to 49. This number was retained in the 1962 constitution but in 1973 it was
enlarged to a massive 114.

Kalabagh represents a systemic problem of a lack of understanding of the concept of a federation..constituent Units are equal to other units regardless of there size or opulation..that is why the federal system in the US or Canada works effectively the senate has actual powers ..there is no question of bbig brother sacrficing..these are accepted norms in a federal system. The double standards that were applied to the Bengalis are interesting..in arguments about the NFC between West and East Pakistan it was the ruling establishment which insisted population should not be a criteria..similarly despite not having any representation in the power matrix Bengalis gave up their population representation in exchange for parity..for the sake of Pakistan. The broader concepts of water distribution betray a lack of understanding of the concept of lower riparian water rights. Pakistans provinces..are a bit of a joke..what real power do they exercise..except for Sind..3 out of 4 are dependant on federal transfers..in baluchistans case because the federation has almost all tax collection power the province depends on Islamabad for 90% ..because Islamabad defaults on payments like gas royalty..the provincial government is forced to borrow again from the federal government to keep running..the situation is so bad that according to one estimate..In the case of Balochistan, the total debt (even without accounting for the massive liabilities for employees
provident fund payments, accrued gratuity entitlement and the pension liability built up over the years)
is 2.5 times total revenues (including transfers under the NFC Award)!

Contrary to what is assumed..it has been politicians who have signed some of pakistans more significant agreements..the 56 & 73 constitutions, the simla agreement,..the 1991 water accord..it is the failure of a respect for the rule of law that creates the issue...any guarantees offered by Musharraf are not worth the paper they are written on..

No constitutional system is perfect..the US system created the grounds for the US civil war..the Indian system which has developed positive democratic conventions ..has not been effective enough to channelise ethnic/religious resentment always...the British system failed in dealing with Scottish and Irish resentment..the Japanese system has an inability to reform itself and so on..what is the key is the development of some form of institutional credibility..a court system which may get it wrong but gets it right more often..

Zakkk,

Excellent points- especially about the concurrent list and politicians signing the most important documents... the 1991 water accord and the constitution of the republic in 1973.... Even Musharrafs harps on about the 1991 accord..

Pakistan has the institutions in place... but our people are impatient. I discussed at length the issue with some very bright and very educated IT professionals and all of them were a brickwall when it came to the issue of letting democracy work for a period of time. They claimed that they had already given a chance to NS and BB.... and before that to ZAB and nothing good came out of it... this is what is wrong - this thinking... democracies don`t become perfect government overnight.... Another even brighter professional, a gentleman who is on the list of the top 1000 SAP consultants in the world, informed me that that constitutions etc were all a grand jewish conspiracy to keep public opinion divided... and that I should read protocols of the elders of zion.

Manto and other........Most people who have never steped in court do not understand finer points. But that constitution is not good and gardians of book are not good. What that constitution has said about revolutionary changes ( like take over) or army powers etc? All times take over is conceded by supreme court judges. Also there should be discussion about what constitution says about military take overs. I am no knowledge of law but feel if constution is interpreated by judges from usa,britain etc nice lawful countries will be good. They can act as obstruction of coward judges of pakistan. We have problem of native judges they have no backbone to stand to army. Mo Zia said is right litle law book he can tear and nothing happens and pakistan is first and nobody can challenge. We can follow english constitution still there is no spirit of justice in Judges, its like pouring nice pure water in broken pot it will not hold.
Need of hour is justices at highest level from usa or uk who have nothing to loose by following book of law.
Dam is essential as karachi has water famine all time, what is point in allowing water flow to sea and waste.
Mr.Masadi I am opposed to revolution and left encouragement for poor people to riot and make problems like, jamming traffic, protests and stone throwing, carrying guns and creating terror use of bombs etc. Lots of people who are snatching purses from old ladies, pick pockets, always claim of poverty and have leftist attitude of robbing middleclass, rich and poor so they can have easy life. Left is trying to support insurgencies and giving lame excuses to ethinic terrorists. Left are not kind human people for them makng troubles is way of life and we do not want to have that type od people. China is leftist but they know how to deal with criminals last year they hanged 35,000 people and sure that country is exporting lots of goods to usa. We need to follow china.

Manto and other........Most people who have never steped in court do not understand finer points. But that constitution is not good and gardians of book are not good. What that constitution has said about revolutionary changes ( like take over) or army powers etc? All times take over is conceded by supreme court judges. Also there should be discussion about what constitution says about military take overs. I am no knowledge of law but feel if constution is interpreated by judges from usa,britain etc nice lawful countries will be good. They can act as obstruction of coward judges of pakistan. We have problem of native judges they have no backbone to stand to army. Mo Zia said is right litle law book he can tear and nothing happens and pakistan is first and nobody can challenge. We can follow english constitution still there is no spirit of justice in Judges, its like pouring nice pure water in broken pot it will not hold.
Need of hour is justices at highest level from usa or uk who have nothing to loose by following book of law.
Dam is essential as karachi has water famine all time, what is point in allowing water flow to sea and waste.
Mr.Masadi I am opposed to revolution and left encouragement for poor people to riot and make problems like, jamming traffic, protests and stone throwing, carrying guns and creating terror use of bombs etc. Lots of people who are snatching purses from old ladies, pick pockets, always claim of poverty and have leftist attitude of robbing middleclass, rich and poor so they can have easy life. Left is trying to support insurgencies and giving lame excuses to ethinic terrorists. Left are not kind human people for them makng troubles is way of life and we do not want to have that type od people. China is leftist but they know how to deal with criminals last year they hanged 35,000 people and sure that country is exporting lots of goods to usa. We need to follow china.

as with most chowk articles, this article contains high school level analysis of both u.s. as well as pak history and politics. the issue of state rights was one of the key themes in early american politics and in fact the issue was not fully resolved until nearly two hundred years after american independence when in early 1960’s, uncle sam sent federal law enforcement officers to mississippi and alabama to enforce desegregation against the wishes of the majority local white population. also the main champions of state rights were southern states who were and probably still are the most backward and corrupt states in the american union. southern politicians raised the issue of state rights enforce regressive social structure i.e. slavery/segregation and to protect corrupt local political structures.

advocates of provincial autonomy in pak have the same motives as those calling for state rights in the u.s. rural sind, baluchistan and fata are the most backward regions of pakistan both in terms of the economy as well as social structure. it is in these places that you find tribalism, feudalism, pir-fakiri, slave labor and the worst oppression against women any where in the world. and surprise surprise, its in these places that you find the strongest advocates of provincial autonomy. and obviously these people will resist kalabagh dam and gwader port because economic development is the fail safe way to bring about social change.

its also important to remember that even in their own territory, these people do not enjoy any sort of support as evidenced by election results. their agenda however is amplified by elements that bear a grudge against the pak government. these elements include external enemies of pak, politicians who don’t have a share of power ex bb and ns, secularists who blame govt for being islamic ex the ft/dt crowd, anarchists and commies, out and out nut jobs such as altaf hussain and english newspaper columnists who are bitter about the fact that rest of the society is moving ahead while they themselves are stuck in their dead end jobs that pays them rs.10,000 pm. normal pakistanis otoh have nothing but gratitude for pak fauj officers for putting their lives on the line so that the rest of us can live in peace. and i know what i am talking about because i have seen karachi before and after army operation against mqm.

response to Cut paste artist#10 by arjun_m on January 8, 2006 5:20am PT
#6 by ahmedmadani on January 7, 2006 11:36pm PT


Other Osama


ROTFLMAO....

just like Other white meat

Mr. Arjun you have lots of problems due to watching too much silly hindi movies and too much ct and paste. What you are writing does ot make sense to any body. In pakistan we are taught to write when we go to school. We do not allow students to copy answer from neighbour student.
I will like to know what is ``ROTFLMAO.....`` also all others. My cat is better than you expressing his thoughts. He shouts and asks for food and still I am sleeping then he climbs my bed and bites my hand and I give him food. See what you say does not make any sense. I have lost all respects to your IIT colleges.
I will suggest you to think before type. Its getting late, good night crude cut paste artist.
I always wish good luck that is called decent behaviour.

Yes... faisal... ordinary Pakistanis don`t have anything but gratitude for Pak Fauj....


In an unrelated event...

Earlier this morning- the wife of one of Pakistan`s many Corps Commanders visited our humble little showroom on a Sunday to look at the Mercedes Kompressor and the new Mark 1 ... the perfect cars for the salary of an honest armyman in Pakistan.

Good night....

I am in favor of Kalabagh dam and I think in the end it will be good for Sindh. The issue now boils down to trust.

What I like about this debate is that now secular and real issues are being discussed in Pakistan not the stupid Islamic issues and fundamentalist framing the debate on Huddood or any other brain fart Islamic schemes.

The debate allows Sindh and some elements in NWFP to come back to the national scene. Sindh especially the interior Sindh has no interest in religion or making Pakistan an Islamic country. Islam in Pakistan has been used to sideline the real issues. The current debate would bring secular forces back in the nation debate and as long as this debate continues, the secular elements would continue to gain the upper hand in national as well as in regional politics.

Kalabagh may be announced but it is not happening until the new elections and I think this is a good time for secular parties to cash in on issues that are important to the country.

The MQM is opposing the kalabagh because it has been asked to that to drown the Sindh nationalist voices on this issue. This ploy is not going to work and would actually intensify the provincial rights issues too.
More on this later but Athar really has no handle on the provincial autonomy or the nationalities issues in Pakistan.

very well said, before Kalabagh we in Azad Kashmir has
problems regarding royalties and settlement issues with
the federal government, although most of our people got
the promised land in elsewhere in Pakistan (especially in
Vehari, Bhurawala and Gujarkhan in Pakistan) but still
some people did not got the promised land which was promised
to people of Azad Kashmir by Islamabad and then Azad Kashmir
had problems regarding getting royalties from Islamabad which
is a standard issue now since Islamabad (wapda) has a unique?
system of setting royalties to land owners and provinces which
should be re-set as soon as possible. Then there`s another issue of
of extending Magla Dam which has been handled by politicians in
AZK (especially infamous PPP Barrister Sultan) as yet another ploy of
blackmailing central government and making it a issue although threes
some element of justification in Barrister Sultans stance against
extending Magla Dam but 70% of what he says is `bull-sh*t` and nothing
more.
The whole issue of building dam is a non-issue, even the nationalists and opposition has agreed on building more damns (which
proves that if damns are not made we in Pakistan could possibly face
a situation which is very hard to handle); to me it’s even the location of proposed Kalabagh Dam is a non-issue the real issue is
the trust in central government for obvious reasons and the roots of problems starts with the shifting of capital from Karachi to Islamabad * in Punjab *, to a very controversial way of distribution of resources (NFC Awards).
There`s even a proposal of declaring the proposed area of Kalabagh
a `Federal Area` but the central government has somehow didn`t get the
the whole point about ` trust ‘, there is an impression that Islamabad = to Punjab which should be changed.
Anyone who had been to or visited Hyderabad, Sindh would know how essential Kalabagh Dam is for Pakistan; Basha Dam is supported universally in Pakistan.If we want to learn anything from Americans we should learn how to make Supreme Court and our judiciary free from any influence .

Pakistan is three centuries behind USA.

Lessons from American democracy.{{{{{Many of the questions that were being raised of the American states in the 1780s are valid for Pakistani provinces today. }}}}

Re:-Pakistan is three centuries behind USA.

Zeena and your point is?
yes we may be backwards in terms of wealth and scientific know-how but we are
one thousand times ahead of Americans in terms of respect for elders,culture and
family values.
Zeena , either you are of slave mentality or either a Indian like arjun who whatvere reason hates Pakistan .