Pervez Musharraf Ko Peace Do

#358 by Mantolives on January 13, 2006 3:57am PT

I did not elaborate upon the strategy but just indicated a rough path towards making Pakistan a truly liberal modern democracy and secularism is indeed the key ingredient in making it happen.........Why? because it goes like this:

prohibiting any party to ask votes in the name of some religious affiliation is the corner stone to this. Religous identity based electoral process may try to work in the back ground surreptitiously in liberal secular democracies but in reality the secular state (through its constitution) would never allow them to operate legitimately...............which means we provide legitimacy to civilian and secular political process but proscribe politics of identity based upon religion...........once Mush or anyone else -may be you- can ensure this, it assured that as a result politics based upon other secular identities such as being a rotarian, a green peace member, a disabled person, a prostitute, a dalit member, a gay, a classical musicain etc. etc would legitimately stake their rightful claim in Pakistan`s political arena in preference to religious sectarian claims........this would lead to generation of multiple identities and groups each attempting to participate peacefully in a civilian democracy to arrive at a broad consensus over collective agendas.............this is what modern democracies are all about......this is what coalition politics is all about.....and this is what gives a braoad representation to every one and differnt interest groups than having represntations based upon religous identities which in fact suit the mullahs................So the first thing tht needs to be done is to make the state prohibit candidates asking for votes on the basis of religious agendas.............and just as Mush debarred BB and NS from participating in electoral politics he can indeed debar religious parties from contesting in elections provided only secular agendas figure in their manifestoes........

#358 MANTOLIVES

Instead of wasting so much of your time and energy on a wasteful entity like Pakistan, better become a citizen of India.

I am sure that people like you will definitely contribute a lot for India and India will also reward you suitably. Its a win-win situation for both.

Think it over the weekend. And just think ,whatever Pakistan gives you, India will give many times more than it. If you want to have a philosphical pursuit, you will get the best universities and scholars of the world here. If you are of artistic temperament, you have bollywood and other world-class art academies. Science and Technology centers here now envy of the world.

You are simply reading history, Jinnah, Gandhi, Ambedkar etc. etc., what are you going to get out of it ? Remember the words of Confucious--``Knowledge without application is like a glass eye--only for show and not for any use``.

If you think you are knowledgeable, apply your knowledge for the bettermwnt of mankind. And which other better place is there to serve the mankind other than India??

I know you are goona say if India is so good why 50% of the people are living below poverty line. Yes, there are two Indias,no doubt. What you talk about yourself. You are not going to be the other India.

Just Think.

Bolta Aina,

I accept that certain things are above and beyond your comprehension... but what Ballu is saying is very different.


Ballu Khan,

Thank you for your post... I agree partially.. but partially disagree because the solution you are presenting is naive given not only Pakistan`s political climate but also the subcontinent as a whole.

While as a person who believes in separation of church and state (I am avoiding the usage of the word ``secular`` since it means so many contradictory things in India and indeed in Pakistan- indeed I would not like you changing my status from a ``neo-tnt-ist``) , I would like nothing but to keep Mullahs out of the loop ... However, I believe the Mullahs have to be defeated constitutionally - through the electoral process... banning religious theocrats like the Mullahs is just not the answer in my opinion. It could work in 1920s in Turkey when Turkey was emerging from a monarchy and moving to a Republican experiment which was not entirely democratic... still it could have done in 1947, when Jinnah could have imposed the French style constitution he had authored on the Constituent Assembly but he did not... the situation in Pakistan (and indeed the subcontinent) is as follows:

a) Religious theocrat parties such as Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind, Jamiat-e-Ulema-Islam, Jamaat-e-Islami and VHP etc have been allowed to operate in the legal framework ...

b) if you mean identity based politics then identity based politics has its own place in a democratic society- surely you don`t want us to forcibly disband the Pakistani Christian Congress or Pakistani Hindu Panchayat as legitimate political groups... if any thing I believe the existence of Pakistan Christian Congress or Pakistani Hindu Panchayat in the central legislature ... would help move Pakistan in the right direction. Right now the Christian and Hindu members of parliament are part of the mainstream parties i.e. PPP and PML and therefore have to toe the party line on many matters... I would rather they organised themselves in a grand minorities alliance.

You will no doubt agree with me that one of the states that has done the best in India is the state of Kerala ... which is one of the most ``secular`` and communally harmonious states in India.... there in addition to the Congress and the Marxists- you have the Kerala State Muslim League and a Christian political party - who largely represent the religious minorities there... So in my opinion the existence of a Pakistan Christian Congress and a Pakistan Hindu Panchayat, in a stronger way than at present is necessary for bringing about a much better and relatively ``Secular`` democratic state in Pakistan.

-YLH

#355 BALLUKHAN SAHIB

And secondly, the people who are themselves not sincere to their country cant be helped. How do you think can India help in restoration of constitution and democratic rule. Is it that an Indian Army General has to go there and strip Musharaff of his seat and powers and conduct free and fair elections??? OK no problem as far as I am concerned.

But I think, its the people of Pakistan who have to do this. But they themsleves do not know which way to go. If you remove Musharaff by any means today, who will replace him?? BB or NS or some Mullah.

Even if you somehow restore the constitution and conduct an election, they will keep on fighting for as to who will be the leader. They arent going to accept the election results so easily.

Ultimately, it will be again some Army General who will force the gun down their throats and then they will sing merrily--``here comes our leader, our saviour``.

#355 BALLUKHAN SAHIB

Extremely bad that you even did not bother to acknowledge my post.

OK, I give you the first chance to try....but how much time do you need to set right this ``Adiyal Tattu``..1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 10000 years or next cycle of Universe???

You must have heard :-

pita par poot, jaat par ghoda,
bahut nahi tau thoda thoda.

Pakistan seedha honey wala ghoda nahin hai. Its a horse which is to be tamed.

`` if India really wants to make peace with Pakistan, here is what it needs to do:

1- While demonising Pakistani Military, don`t demonise Pakistan and its people.

2- Instead of clamouring for the rights of ``oppressed groups``, imagined or real, call for and forcefully call for the revival of Pakistan`s constitution and its status as a democracy... ``

I think Manmohan Singh is moving towards this direction only................once india raises the issue of civilian rule without a military head in international forums Mush would be forced to give a deadline for his stepping down and conducting a multiparty elections............Mush can then contribute by ensuring that only secular and non-religious parties participate in the elections and outlaw persons raising religious political agendas like we have in india..............in this manner we can have secular leadership from different groups, regions and sects getting thrown up which would represent the secular concerns of the people they would represent............hopefully this would ultimately throw back the mullahs to their madarassas and make then ineffective in civilian polity................once this is done secularism would become the ruling principle in the political process and Pakistan would prosper as a modern nation...............

Ballu Khan,

Despite our usual disagreeable points of view ..I accept your point of view on Pakistan`s future course and see it as a constructive response to the issue I raised in #3.

#352

More Hindutvist wetdreams of Akhand Bharat I see...

#351 BALLUKHAN SAHIB

``Indian experiment with democracy is what Pakistan needs to watch carefully........``

Not agreed to. First of all India is not experimenting with democracy--India is a successful working democracy. Secondly, Pakistan is no more to ``watch`` India. It should join it.

60 years down the line after Partition, it has been proved conclusively that our respected Buzurg Jinnah Sahib was wrong. Hindus and Muslims are NOT TWO NATIONS. Their traditions, culture, language, habits, history and future dreams & aspirations make them a single nation. We have to make efforts that this division of our land and its people is reversed as soon as possible and we are united again.

As the times have changed, zamana badal gaya hai, we also have to change. We have to leave behind old Hindustan and make a Naya Hindustan which secular, democratic and a modern Hindustan.

Salim Bhai:-

I have always been amazed at the manner in which army has manipulated civilian institutions in Pakistan since the very early days...............and the discourses churned out by them has become a part of the folk religion within Pakistan.............Indian experiment with democracy is what Pakistan needs to watch carefully............we had hindutva BJP/RSS combine............we threw them out............we had Laloo acting like a civilian dictator.......we threw him out.............the idea of democracy is that those whom we trust can be thrown out of power once they lose the civilian trust.......but can you say the same for Mushy??..........and he is going to do immense damage to the civilian systems because he has to keep his ranks and Generals happy by doling out those lucrative governmental institutions.............under democracy there is general representation ......but with Mushy you are bound to see the Punjus ruling over others................

The only solution to Pakistan`s problem is to push the military back to barracks and then let political institutions play it out through clean elections...............let the corrective actions be taken through electoral politics and infusion of democracy at village levels...........

So do we need to discuss whether we trust Mushy or not???

``Pakistanis respect Mush not because what he is ...but because they fear that he could have been even worse.........and this slavish mentality of fear of the MASTER- the so called benevolent dictator- has been drilled down in the common population by the conservatives in every third world country..............with ample help from the sychophants of the dictator within the journalistic community....... ``

Bbabu,

Re: your earlier post addressed to me.

The view that Ambedkarji expresses about Jinnah sahab, which I have quoted in #205, was held universally by even Gandhi, Nehru, Sarojini Naidu and other leading lights of the Indian freedom struggle as well as other luminaries of the British Empire including H V Hodson... I don`t attach much significance to Gandhi`s testimony though and I have already mentioned why.

But more importantly you are right... Ambedkar would not have a high opinion of Pakistan`s polity in 2005, dominated as it is by army and the mullahs... indeed Jinnah would probably regret making the country given this sad state of affairs politics wise when very educated Pakistanis apologise shamelessly for military rule. However let me remind you that while Ambedkar, along with all major leaders, held Jinnah as a man of incorruptible integrity, he did have a very low opinion of Muslims in general. Ambedkar would take Pakistan, as a militarised pseudo-theocratic republic in 2005, as an affirmation of his own views on Muslims- as a militarized backward people caught up in past glory.

I happen to agree with Ambedkar`s view of Muslims in general... but I don`t think this condition will last for ever... I believe that Muslims too will go through a reformation and the Islamic world would once more become a bastion of civilisation and modernity.

HisExcellency #312

`` If Pak army wants to keep Kashmir alive, why did it drop the UN plebiscite option and adopt a flexible stance on Kashmir? Why didn`t it object to India building a fence along LoC? Open your eyes and you will find the real laggards inside India. It is the Indian politician who wants to keep Kashmir problem alive, in order to play the ``nationalism card`` at the polls. ``

The actions of the Pakistani Army can never be completely explained by rationality.

The soft line adopted by Pakistani Army may be a combination of factors like
1. surging Indian economy

2. alleviate American pressure against Taliban and Al Qaida

3. get out of nuclear proliferation mess

4. prevent India and USA from getting closer

5. internal crisis of confidence

6. need to please USA and West European states

7. pressure from China

BJP plays the Hindu nationalism card well. But it has never helped them win power outright.

FV

Please ignore #334.

HP

Thanks for the clarification.

tahmed at 345/346:

These Indiots on Chowk not only have a mental problem, they indulge in orgies as a ritual. And why do they indulge in these orgies? Because they have insecurities about India itself. They are convinced that India is not only insecure in terms of its border states and North-South divide, but also due increasingly to rich and poor divide.

So Indiots continue to have orgies among yourselves. Don`t let independent Tamil nation, Khalistan, Kashmir, Nagaland, Assam, etc. divert your attention and lead you astray.

:-D

thats #343, not #353.

ahmedzai #353 You have provided a fitting response indeed to this stupid and vicious dream of the break up of Pakistan!! These dreams say nothing about the future - but they say a lot about the mental problems these dreamers suffer from.