Pervez Musharraf Ko Peace Do

#89 by ahmadzai on January 9, 2006 8:13am PT

If you name the elected politician who is responsible for this, he`ll get voted out of office...

Actually if the writer really believes Musharraf, she should ask him to atleast hand over the terrorists released after the ``flight hijack``. The leaders of ``lashkar`` and ``jaish``. they have themselves admitted their responsibility in public meetings in pakistan. That would be a ``good first step``.

Masanmamuthu...

You don`t get it do you...

Tamil outfits exist and are small just like Bugti Tribesman are confined to one small area... so your point is. I brought up the Tamil issue because it is very similar. Besides if I am not mistaken, one of these outfits actually blew up a former Prime Minister- Rajiv Gandhi. Tamil Tigers and their insurgency in Sri Lanka has deep rooted ties with Tamil elements in India... which is why India is gung ho about supporting Sri Lanka against Tamil tigers...

I am not interested in India breaking up... just tit for tat response to India raising the issue... and I have no desire to equate a small Bugti rebellion to legitimate struggles such as Sikh struggle against Indian Brahmo-fascism in the 1980s or Kashmir`s struggle against a brutish army indulging in genocide and worst kind of attrocities including routine custodial killings... ... which is why Tamils are mentioned so forcefuly because the Bugti rebellion is akin to Tamil rebellion- not in Sri Lanka but in India...

Feroz and Faisal:

Strange ways of the Baloch:

While on one wildlife expedition to track the footprints of a pair of Asian Cheetahs that was reportedly sited in Balochistan, I noted a strange tradition among the proud Baloch. The tribal head would travel on camel while one of his wives or sisters would be on feet leading the line. And this she would continue to do for many miles.

When the time came for serving the food, she would cook it and wait for all the males to finish and leave leftovers for her.

[Pervez Musharraf Ko Peace Do]

above is the heading of this article which appears to be urdu/hindi...i have been saying all along that chowk has become an indian propaganda site which grabs every chance to attack and insult pakistan and it`s people, but now they have gone beyond that and insulted our beloved dictator president with this heading which in english means......CRUSH PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF...

Arjun:

Nice reply.

Well, we are trying to get rid of Musharraf through MRD arn`t we? Btw, Movement for Restoration of Democracy comprises all opposition parties, including National popular parties, Mullas, Imrans, nationalists, etc.

How do you propose you vote out educated Indians practicing fetus killing?

re: HP # 90

HP, this is just a minor clarification.

The accord, between Stalin and Roosevelt was signed at Yalta in 1945, a Crimean resort on the Black Sea and not in Malta.

As to diplomacy, personal affinity does play a role but at the end of the day, personal diplomacy has to operate within the institutional interests of a nation`s foreign policy. Therefore, your statement is true that most nations will adhere to agreements and international treaties in the worst of situations. The simple reason is that, though the leadership might be bickering and clawing each other`s eyes out, the agreements do provide an institutional mechanism to eventually resolve the problems.

Besides, leaders come and go but the treaties last for a long time. International treaties are like business contracts; you do not break the contract just because the firm has a new CEO. International relations are not build on trust and cannot be based on trust, hence international treaties act as a subsitute to trust. Thus, the longevity of a treaty pre-supposes a level of rapprochment, and it is upon this premise, that a working relationship and understanding is created between nations.

Ciao

Mantolives,

I told you that the supporters of TNLA/TNRT are in the hundreds out of 60 million Indian Tamils....

Can you give a guestimate of the number of Bugti supporters in the population of Balochistan..

I can`t imagine Tamils blowing up infrastructure when Manmohan singh is going to speak in Chennai and the Indian army using helicopter gunships to attack the population in trichy / Madurai..

There is literally no equivalence. Admit your mistake and don`t include ``Tamils``.. That spoils your credibility,,

#77 by ferozk

“Dera Bugti and Kohlu both controlled by Nawab Akbar Bugti.”
My turn now :)

Kohlu is in Marri area and not in Bugti area. Kohlu is controlled by Mir Ballach Marri a son of Sardar Khair Bux Marri.

I can agree with you on some Irani involvement in this whole saga. There were many reports in the seventies that Akber Bugti had some relationship with SAVAk the notorious agency under the Shah of Iran.

Iran has always been a player in Balochistan. Before Bizenjo was made Governor of Balochistan in the 1973-74, he had to spend two weeks in Tehran listening to Savak and the Iran bureaucracy about his ties with the leftist in Pakistan and how Iran would not appreciate communist influence in Balochistan.

Guess nothing has changed. Iran is back to doing what Shah was doing with the added problem of the Gwadar port for Iran that will certainly hurt Irani port almost next door.

Thanks.

Masanamuthu...

First of all I don`t accept your view that TNLA/TNRT are hundreds in millions... They form the Indian representation of LTTE and had sizeable numbers before LTTE was banned and its cadres hunted down - if Baloch insurgency had a similar moment it was in the 1970s when they were joined by idealistic marxists (many now in high positions in Pakistan`s establishmen ironically)... secondly the difference here is one tribal leader going crazy- My guess is that the Bugti tribesmen fighting the Pakistan government are in thousands ... definitely not in hundreds of thousands...So you don`t think blowing up a former prime minister is as big a deal as a random bomb going off somewhere in the town of Kohlu ( I am flattered you think Kohlu is as great a town as Madras) while an unpopular Military dictator was visiting.

Now I accept there is no equivalence... while the fringe Tamil groups are insurgents and recognisable militant groups- Rajkumar incident for example was very famous even in Pakistan.. they would be recognised by international law as combatants, Bugti uprising is a tribal leader/feudal lord going crazy thinking himself to be an older version of William Wallace... Pakistan has faced off much more charismatic tribals- like Fakir of Ipi for example... tribals don`t amount to much- they are just a nuisance.

What is important here is that the centre addresses important Baloch issues... and that can be done through a complete restoration of the Constitution of Pakistan. If India really cares about the Baloch people... it would support the revival of the constitutional government in Pakistan.

Anyway have a good night.

as long as mr. mushaaraf conducts foot-in-mouth diplomacy by his off the cuff remarks -- he will be taken seriously less and less..

In the past Indians used to hang on to every word mr. musharraf would utter -- but not any more -- his flippant extemporaneous sometimes bazaari verbosity about some very serious issues like those of rape cases -- have considerably diminished his veracity as a thoughtful deliberate leader whose opinion could be meaningfully trusted.....

mr. musharraf -- in his unscripted public discourses -- projects a kind of personal POWER -- spiced with so many I, I`s and my, my`s -- that later turned out HE DOESN`T HAVE -- in getting things done as follow ups....

... may be Indians are just getting tired of mr. musharraf`s flippancy -- it is becoming difficult to take him seriously about his I I`s and my my`s....

the proposal for removing the army from the three major population centers is a good one no doubt -- but again it came as a very personalized off the cuff remark -- a bombshell it was intended to be -- that turned out to a dud -- because its shock value is gone.....past performances...

After the real bombshells in Delhi bazaar and in Banglore -- the Indians have lost the appetite for mr musharraf`s diplomacy by verbal `bombshells`.....

if mr. mushrraf is serious about these very serious issues -- he should control his verbal diarrhea -- and go thru serious channels not thru off the cuff whimsical remarks.....

the proposal is a good one -- but Indians don`t believe mr. musharraf `s personal guarantees` are worth a whole lot....

#101 by ahmadzai on January 9, 2006 8:39am PT


How do you propose you vote out educated Indians practicing fetus killing?


the long and hard arm of the law...

BS about education solving this problem won`t cut it..I just heard on the beeb that this problem is mostly among more educated Indians..the reasons stated by the indian activist made sense..the educated people have access to dna tests and sonograms that reveal the sex of the foetus...

khamkhwa # 100

LOL

Mantolives:

Good night to you.. hope you read this in the morning..

Yes, Rajiv gandhi`s assassination is a big thing.. I don`t deny that.. But you are wrongly attributing it to the cause of ``Tamil separatism`` in India. He was killed by the LTTE and supported by fringe groups because of allegedly IPKF`s operations in Srilanka.. It is TRUE that the supporters of ``secession`` are probably in the ``hundreds``.. And as the economy develops that would dwindle further..

Your initial post was alluding to ``Indian state oppression of Tamils`` and I pointed out how wrong it is.. It is funny to read these kind of statements in Pakistani websites and by some US congressman..

It is good that you found there is no equivalence to the Balochi and Tamil issues, So I hope that you won`t include ``tamils`` in the list of Nagas/Dalits/kashmiris/etc..etc.. under Indian state oppression.. That undermines the credibility of the statement and the poster..

:-))

The problem is obvious...Mushy holds hopes for the Indian government giving him Indian Kashmir on a platter...ain`t gonna happen..

`Self-governance fits in well in Kashmir`

Karan Thapar: General Musharraf, your foreign office spokesperson has indicated that in November, Pakistan Prime Minister Shakuat Aziz, suggested the concept of self-governance to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as a possible solution for Kashmir.

It`s an idea that many people think has weightage, but they are not really sure what you mean by self-governance. So let me ask you what do you have in mind when you talk about self-governance?

President Musharraf: I believe one has to go beyond stated positions. Now, there is one aspect of what India has been saying - autonomy within the Indian constitution. This is totally not acceptable to the people of Kashmir also. Therefore, one needs to go beyond the stated positions. We have to go beyond autonomy and independence. We are working for something between autonomy and independence. And I think self-governance fits in well.

Thapar: Let us explore what India claims: That the people of Jammu and Kashmir state, who have their own elected government, already enjoy a measure of self-governance. How much more do you have in mind when you talk about self-governance?

President Musharraf: I don`t agree with that at all.(Aww...poor baby....)

Thapar: You mean they have no self-governance whatsoever in your eyes?

President Musharraf: Not at all. Because most of the people don`t accept the Indian government in Kashmir.

Thapar: Of course the Indian response to this could be that, in fact, the people of what you call the Azaad Kashmir have no self-governance at all, even less than perhaps in India.

President Musharraf: Well, we would like to give self-governance to them also.(so what`s stopping you?)

Thapar: So let`s come back to my question, when you talk about self-governance, how much more do you have in mind?

President Musharraf: When you say self-governance, okay in this part, would we agree to self-governance from both parts? Let us do it.

Thapar: Before we come to an agreement on both parts, let me try and explore with you, what you mean by that.

President Musharraf: Because you say self-governance, they would say that. Okay, if they are saying that, I`m open to it. Let us work out self-governance and impose the same rules on Indian side of Kashmir and Pakistani side of Kashmir. Is that all right?

Thapar: Well, it is not for me to answer, it is for the Indian government to answer.

President Musharraf: Okay.

Thapar: But I`m sure they are listening to this interview. Let`s first try and establish what do you mean by self-governance. As I said, Indians believe there is self-governance. How much more do you want? What more are you looking for?

President Musharraf: If India believes there is self-governance, we keep sticking to this position, we will never move forward because we do not agree. Therefore, if you want to move forward, we have to leave stated positions.

Thapar: Let me ask the question the other way around. May people in Kashmir look forward to what they call independence? How much less than independence is self-governance?

President Musharraf: Exactly that is what I am saying. Please listen to me. Self-governance falls in between autonomy and independence. That is what I want to say. Now, the exact details and intricacies of it need to be worked out. I am there to propose a strategy and idea. Now the tactics and the modalities of what is self-governance need to be worked out.

Thapar: Who works it out?

President Musharraf: Together, India, Pakistan and Kashmiris.

Thapar: Will you bring in constitutional experts, will you do it yourself or is it the politicians who will do the working out?

President Musharraf: Let us get legal experts.

Thapar: International legal experts or Indian or Pakistani legal experts?

President Musharraf: I don`t mind international. All these are problems with India. We won`t mind international experts. Get international experts.

Thapar: But will you be happy for India and Pakistan bilaterally to appoint their own experts?

President Musharraf: And the Kashmiris too.

Thapar: And Kashmiris. But you are happy for the matter to be handled bilaterally with Kashmiris involved rather than international people coming in?

President Musharraf: As I said, we are open to anything. That is our flexibility. We are open to anything, but please, for heaven`s sake, move forward.

Thapar: So, at the moment I am trying to understand what you are saying. You have gem of an idea, which is something in between autonomy and independence. But you have not fleshed it out and you believe the fleshing out has to happen together jointly.

President Musharraf: Yes, only one aspect that I have in mind within self-governance is that of security. Because the problem is of militancy on both sides. Indians accuse us for the terrorism going on or the freedom struggle going on, the other side or Pakistan accuses the Indian Army of committing atrocities. All these have to stop. Therefore, there is a demilitarisation required. And then, if we have to demilitarise, let us hand over security to the people. That is the main aspect.

Thapar: Is the concept of self-governance interlinked with demilitarisation? Or are they two separate concepts that you are playing with?

President Musharraf: I think it is one part of whatever I have suggested.

Thapar: It is a joint idea?

President Musharraf: Yes.

Thapar: But let me point out a problem.

President Musharraf: Demilitarisation is important because what kind of self governance can there be if there is a 600,000 or 700,000 army personnel all over the place and in the cities controlling everything.(Hey...it works in Pakiland where you`re the dictator, doesn`t it?)

Thapar: But what sort of government and you are a head of government, you are a head of army and you will understand this, what sort of government can withdraw and demilitarise while the threat of terrorism continues?

President Musharraf: No, it should not. Yes, indeed I am for curbing any kind of militancy.

Thapar: Doesn’t that have to happen first?

President Musharraf: No it can’t happen entirely. It should happen and peace should return in the Valley.

Thapar: And the demilitarisation?

President Musharraf: No sir, no. I don’t agree there. If anyone thinks that not a bullet will be fired, there are people who are involved. There is an indigenous proof, there are people involved, they are around, and they are not under the control of anyone. So if we think that if one bullet is fired, the peace process is dead, I am afraid this is not the way forward and this is what is happening on the Indian side.

Thapar: Can I point out you what perhaps in Indian eyes is normally the argument you are putting forward? You are saying that demilitarisation and the peace process has to happen together. Demilitaristion and terrorism can happen together, the problem is which government will demilitarise as long as the threat of cross border terrorism remains. Any responsible government in Delhi will say end the terror first, then we will move to talk about demilitarisation and governance. But as long as the terror continues how can a responsible government demilitarise?

President Musharraf: Okay. Why it shouldn’t? Has the Indian government ever said `yes we are for demilitarising and self-government?`(cause they`re not for demilitarization and there isn`t anything you can do about it?) They haven’t even spoken. So lets get the strategy right. Okay, if there idea is that all terrorism has to stop and then we will speak about demilitarisation and self-governance. But they don’t move forward at all. They don’t even comment what they want.

Thapar: Let me play Devils Advocate with you. If the Indian want to say to you, as you sort of suggested just now, ``end all terror then we will talk about demilitarisation and self-governance``, in that circumstance would you move to end all terror immediately?

President Musharraf: Karan, we must understand and the public of India should understand. If you think I have the key, which I will just switch off like that and all terror is gone.

Thapar: It sounded for a moment as if you did.

President Musharraf: Not at all. I didn’t sound that at all. There are a lot of groups operating. There is an indigenous factor operating there and there should be no doubt in any Indian minds there are indigenous factors there.

Thapar: So then do you say the Indian government’s problem is how to demilitarise while the terror continues?

President Musharraf: They will not listen to anyone. So therefore we have to jointly move forward. When we opened the bus service, the bus station on the Indian side was attacked. Do you think we did it? Do you think we facilitated that? On one side we are opening bus service and going for a peace process and somebody attacks that. You think Pakistan sponsored it?

Thapar: Many people in India sadly say that Pakistan sponsors Jehadi militant groups today.

President Musharraf: That is absolute nonsense and this is why we don’t move forward on the peace process. The problem is that they keep blaming Pakistan on things which are not correct and therefore we don’t move forward. Now if the bus station was attacked and they say Pakistan sponsored people, whoever it is they are not sponsored by Pakistan. They may have been sponsored 15 years back. They are not being sponsored. Now stop this allegation so that we can move forward.

Thapar: Let us come back to the peace process. You have said a moment ago that you will be very happy to introduce the concept of self-governance in what you called Azad Kashmir, just as you want to introduce self-governance on the Indian side of the border as well. And you would like both countries to work out together what they mean by self-governance and that is a set of details that still need to be worked upon. Will self-governance also apply to the Northern territories?

President Musharraf: Why we are getting involved in this nuisance?

Thapar: Is it a nuisance? You control almost 70 per cent of the Northern Territories.

President Musharraf: Now my idea is, we have to identity the region. I have said this a long time ago. In its complexity, in its entirety, we have to identify a region and then we have to demilitarise and then we have to go for self-governance and then we go for joint management. There are the four things that I said long time ago.

Thapar: Joint management?

President Musharraf: Yes.

Thapar: This sounds new. Joint management means that the sovereignty of the two countries over what they hold today is not appreciated, but you still manage to exert joint management. A Kashmiri entity with open borders and perhaps collaborated joint institutions. Is that not right?

President Musharraf: First of all it is sovereignty that we are talking about. The dispute is about sovereignty. This is a disputed territory. There is no sovereignty.

Thapar: Then what does joint management mean?

President Musharraf: Joint management would be a solution which we need to go into. Now I know that I am treading in very sensitive areas. And I know that the Indian government would comment on it that I give ideas through the media. Unfortunately, I also give these ideas always to the leadership also.

President Musharraf: I believe in confidentiality. I believe that things should be covered till we move forward. But unfortunately a year has passed and we still keep things under the wrap. We don’t come out openly. I don’t go along with this kind of strategy or theory. A time has to come when leadership on both sides have to come up in the open and discuss ideas.

Thapar: Absolutely. Let us separate for a moment how the ideas are raised and why you talked in the press and why you don’t. Let us leave that for a little later.

President Musharraf: I have said these things to the leadership also by the way.

Thapar: Let us for now concentrate on the idea itself. If self-governance is the solution that you are suggesting for both to consider - for Jammu & Kashmir on the Indian side and what you call Azad Kashmir on yours - why are the Northern Territories, which perhaps represent 70 per cent of of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, which you control?

President Musharraf: I have not said anything about any territory. I said we have to identify the region.

Thapar: So the Northern Territories could be included?

President Musharraf: At the moment, technically, the whole of Kashmir means the northern areas, Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Srinagar region and Ladakh region.

Thapar: So just to be crystal clear, because people are listening to you and they want clarity. The Northern Territories could be part of the package that you are talking about?

President Musharraf: When we discuss regions, when we discuss territories, yes indeed we start with the whole block. This is Kashmir and we start discussing.

Thapar: Now this concept of self-governance that you are suggesting would apply to the whole princely state of Kashmir as it existed prior to 1947. What you are suggesting is that the two governments sit down, work out what they mean by self-governance and apply equally and mutually on both side of LoC on the territories that they control? Can I go a step further? What are you envisaging?

President Musharraf: But that is not the end of everything.

Thapar: Absolutely. What are you then envisaging?

President Musharraf: Joint management.

Thapar: Joint management. What does that mean?

President Musharraf: Joint management means we need to work it out. We need to have a system where the Kashmiris, the Pakistanis, the Indians are involved in monitoring the self-governance that we evolve. There have to subjects which are devolved, there have to be some subjects retained for the joint management.

Thapar: So within the joint management of India and Pakistan over the old pre-1947 primary stage and Jammu and Kashmir within that you have self governance equally applied across both sides where the Kashmir have a say in their own life. Is that right?

President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely.

Thapar: Joint management then suggests that the sovereignty of India over what it has and sovereignty of Pakistan over what it has remains, but a creative, imaginative way is found for Kashmir within that sovereignty to share and a be part of it.

President Musharraf: That sovereignty is reduced. Okay. That sovereignty gets reduced because when we give self-governance that sovereignty that you are talking off, in a sense you are saying certainly gets reduced. Yes, I agree with it.

Thapar: But it is not undermined, that is the critical point.

President Musharraf: It`s not undermined.

Thapar: If it still remains, Indian-Kashmir, Pakistani-Kashmir but within that joint entity as well.

President Musharraf: Okay, one can have a time frame. One could have a time frame for these separate entities. After five or 10 years if they decide to merge and to have self governance as one block that could also be possible.

Thapar: So, then it could be a two-stage process. In stage one they remain separate entities, in stage two they merge, but they merge under what I am now calling the `tutelage`, the joint management of India Pakistan. That joint management remains.

President Musharraf: Yes, there has to be a division. We are not talking about giving independence to Kashmir. That is not acceptable to either India or Pakistan. We don`t accept autonomy as the final solution within the Indian constitution.

Thapar: Something in between.

President Musharraf: Something in between or self-governance.

Thapar: With both countries guaranteeing it?

President Musharraf: With both countries guaranteeing it and overseeing it.

Thapar: And therefore both countries having a stake in guaranteeing the situation in the other side of Kashmir.

President Musharraf: Absolutely.

Thapar: That`s critical?

President Musharraf: Yes.

Thapar: So you are talking then about concepts of interdependence, concepts of diplomatic interrelationships, that have never really been experimented before. This is completely fresh ground.

President Musharraf: Absolutely, you to break fresh ground. Because the LoC is the issue. On the Indian side it is said that boundaries cannot be redone. We will not accept the LoC as final.(you accepted it in Kargil didn`t you? If you don`t accept it, you wouldn`t have fled leaving behind bodies of your soldiers..)

Thapar: So this is General Musharraf being creative? This is General Musharraf thinking out of the box as he said in April he would.

President Musharraf: Absolutely, these are my ideas but I am open to any suggestions. The unfortunate reality is no suggestion comes from the other side. Or no comments come on this other than negative comments.

Thapar: General Musharraf, lets take a break. You have sketched out things in more detail than ever before. What you mean by self-governance and you have gone on record for the first time to talk of the concept of joint management under what I call the tutelage of India and Pakistan.

Let`s take a break and comeback and ask how you react to the Indian response, the way you have raised these proposals and what the next step thereafter should be.

Farzana,
I thought your title ``Pervez Musharraf Ko Peace Do`` was saying ``Pervez Musharraf Ko Pees Do`` or ``Crush Pervez Musharraf.`` Doesn`t the poor cheap imitation of Groucho Marx have enough on his plate? He is the most liberal, tolerant, and freedom-loving dictator who has ruled Pakistan and that includes the two Bhuttos, Nawaz Sharif, Ghulam Mohammed, and even Jinnah. The only leaders who were more democratic than he were Nazimuddin, Liaquat, Bogra, and Chaudhry Mohammed Ali, OK OK Feroz Khan Noon was probably up there too. Certainly, Mushy is a vast improvement over the Bhuttos, Zia, Ayyub, Yahya, Iskandar Mirza, and Nawaz Sharif. In Pakistan, ``democracy`` and civilian clothing don`t mean a thing. We have had compassionate wolves and carnivorous sheep.

Now, we get to the point. Of course, Mushy wants Indian troops out of Baramula, Srinagar, and Kupwara. Funny, he never mentioned Kargil. :) What he couldn`t do in Kargil by force, he wants to accomplish in the valley through negotiations. Then, he promises to work to contain terrorism, as if this curse of violence is like tap water and Mushy can turn it on and off as he wishes by working the valve. Suppose India falls for the trick and leaves the three towns, then Mushy says he tried hard, but the terrorists managed to get in there anyway. I mean Indians are a lot of things, but not stupid or even suicidal.

Also, you stated that The Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Ahmed Sherpao had said, ``India is supporting the miscreants in Balochistan.`` That was certainly quick thinking and a timely update by Mr. Sherpao. Now that Sadman Houston is incapacitated from aiding the Baluchis, it`s encouraging to note that the Bugtis have found another nearby sponsor. :)

Good article on a current subject. I am not sure I support the point of view that you are putting forward. Mushy, with all his good intentions, needs to be more convincing than this.
I would be glad to offer him the position of Chief of Staff in a reunited Hindustan - as long as he promises not to ...