Pervez Musharraf Ko Peace Do

Oh boy.

````Incidentally, Musharraf has gone on record to say that he has banned many such organisations and those who have come up under different guises are in the ‘watch list’. He also stated that although he cannot give a certificate, he would ensure that if any such incident occurred he would himself bring the organisation/person to book. ````

The President of Pakistan is also known for his sense of humour.

+++

As for author`s reference to Baluchistan, my counter question - why is she so sensitive to anything being placed on open forums about the truth in Baluchistan, which is currently the location for nothing short of a pogrom in the course of what is described by the Pakistanis as a ``non-operation``? Why does any sort of interaction which tries to take forward healthy debate on the subject of Muslims destroying each other always face resistance, not just on this website but in many other forums?

Oh yes, it is not secular. Well, secularism be damned in the face of truth, if that has to be the case. And now, no better time than now, because truth is always about the present.

And as for why Baluchistan specifically now, why not since 1970, well, the answer, dear friends, is flying in the wind. Let me try to explain:-

For too many years did we see segments of the Indian perception builders feed us with the lie that it was we in India especially Indian Hindus who were responsible for horrible atrocities on minorities, especially Muslims. This reached a point till we believed in it ourselves.

Now, with the onset of a freer media and more than anything else the realisation within even Indian Muslims that the truth lies as always somewhere in the middle, is the perception based on simple fact that India is a better place for Muslims than most of the Islamic countries in the neighbourhood.

And so, let us discuss Baluchistan now, and let us comment about it, question it as well as be party to trying to resolve the issue.

I have Baluchi roots and connections, and I want answers. So if the author of this article has a problem with that, well, bad luck. We in India ask the people, pretty much every 5 to 5 years, and that suffices. We really can`t go on the steets and seek a 99% mandate than our fair and smiling Generals next door, can we?

sincerely,

Veeresh Malik

`Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official.` (Theodore Roosevelt)

Thanks for this quote.

I believe Musharraf is sincere in all that he wants - modern pluralist relatively secular Pakistan, women`s rights, stable democracy and peace with India... The problem is that his fashion is arbitrary and therefore I am not going to put my money on him...


Sorry to disagree with you but if India really wants to make peace with Pakistan, here is what it needs to do:

1- While demonising Pakistani Military, don`t demonise Pakistan and its people.

2- Instead of clamouring for the rights of ``oppressed groups``, imagined or real, call for and forcefully call for the revival of Pakistan`s constitution and its status as a democracy...


Because these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me... and there are many like me.

``the perception based on simple fact that India is a better place for Muslims than most of the Islamic countries in the neighbourhood.``




Hindu mob burning four young Muslims...


If you wish to talk about Balochistan Veeresh... lets also talk about Kashmir, Punjab, Dalits, Tamils, Nagaland and the 13 other independent nations you are oppressing in India...

Dear Yasser,

Pakistan (and by that I mean the common and ordinary people of the country, not you as an individual) needs to find peace with itself first. Please sort out your genocides and pogroms in Baluchistan, Azad Kashmir and NWFP, get to govern those parts of the country which are still inaccessible, and do the correct thing with women, minorities and bonded labour.

India is doing quite well, thank you, and getting along.

As for ``making peace`` with Pakistan, what gave you the impression that it is any longer a priority? It is just one more of the many things India is doing. If peace is made with Pakistan (whatever that means) fine. If peace is not made, well, life goes on.

India does not need to ``win friends``. India is busy trying to feed people, remove poverty, improve education, enhance governance . . . etcetc. Towards that, we shall manage, thank you.

sincerely, and if you must respond, please try to do so without going into personal attacks and abuse, as is your tradition. (I mean yours as an individual, not anything to do with Pakistan)

Veeresh Malik

A routine day for a Muslim in Veeresh`s Delhi...




This poor fellow...one Dr Abbas- left his home in Delhi and was burnt by a Hindu mob on the way to work for being a Muslim... What a great place to be for a Muslim...

While Veeresh consumed mass quantities of high quality Desai beer... and tells us India is getting along fine.

Yasser says```` If you wish to talk about Balochistan Veeresh... lets also talk about Kashmir, Punjab, Dalits, Tamils, Nagaland and the 13 other independent nations you are oppressing in India... ````

Please do, Yasser. These are topics discussed openly in India.

But this one is about the genocide ongoing in Baluchistan. Go for it, show me the references in the Pakistani media?

sorry for the graphic picture... but one has to call Veeresh`s bluff about India shining...

Pakistani media is 24 hours reporting on Balochistan... but we also know that Bugtis don`t equal Balochistan...

Ferzana,

Perhaps you have forgotten that just a few weeks back during Diwali we had a major multiple bomb terror attack in Delhi where 60 odd people died doing shopping. Also every few weeks we are busting Lashkar cells all over India that are planning to hit even cities in South India. So pardon us Indians for being hesitant about taking Musharraf very seriously about his commitment against terror.

The Chief of Lashkar-e-Toiba Prof. Hafeez Saeed moves around freely in Lahore. He was in Azad Kashmir supervising earthquake relief efforts even as he was threatening India with jihad in all cities of India. Why the hell is Prof. Hafeez Saeed free in Pakistan and giving media interviews? Why doesnt Musharraf arrest him and close his operations? Do you have an answer?

Still India has agreed upon people to people contact, provided massive relief to earthquake victims in Pakistan, opened new rail/bus lines, opened new crossover points on LOC and initiated talks with APHC. So it is not as if India is not doing anything. It is in India`s interest to keep the process moving along, slow as it may be, since it keeps some kind of check on jihadi infiltration and gives us room to focus on economic growth in-house. But we cannot take major steps when abominations like Hafeez Saeed are alive and active in Pakistan.

The revolt in Kashmir is not occuring in the whole state. It is restricted to the Muslim majority part of the state and there is no impact in the Jammu and Ladakh areas.

Pakistan has made official comments on Sikkim, Goa, Punjab and many other ``seperatist`` movements. I personally heard Gohar Ayub run through the Indian ``seperatist`` movements in a statement he made after the Indian nuclear tests.

All in all this article is so full of inaccuracies, it reminds me of a Pakistan Government press release.

“where the chance to give a 50 cent autorickshaw ride to a couple of tourists is a privileged job and most men and women sweat out jobs in rural villages for a dollar or two a day.”
“A dollar goes pretty far in India, so if you can spare some cash for a donation to either of these organizations, you will be making a giant difference in empowering people to take control of their own lives in fighting poverty. - Nathan Newman writing about his travel to India.
http://www.nathannewman.org/log/


I have been saying this for sometime. Indian problems are internal; they don’t want to face the reality that uneven economic progress if any, and loud mouthing about that(India Shining) has sparked a genuine outcry in the rural India and in the states left behind.

The political storm over Natwar Singh has taken its tool and the current Indian government is now paralyzed enough to take any initiative anywhere economic or political.

Mushraf is driving the advantage home. Talking about Balochistan was a meek attempt to find a way to not to discuss the issues on the table. Indian support of Balochistan has actually hurt Baloch. There is no one in Balochistan that has any soft corner for India and if Indian government continued talking about Balochistan then there are forces out there that will come hard at India.

Indians neither have the political will nor the military muscle to change anything on the ground.

Re:HP#12

Ha ha ha!! Wishful thinking on your part. India is 100 times more united and focused on economic matters than Pakistan. You cant even manage 4 provinces without using helicopter gunships and you are giving lectures to us?

I see that the photo I posted has been edited on Veeresh`s request so that it is no longer visible... I am kinda glad... now I can scroll without being pained.

That maybe so... but it is the reality of Veeresh`s Delhi... shameless and wrong.

Re:mantolives #14

Can you post the URL for this story?

Yasser,
It hasn`t been edited out just not visible and it is a gruesome picture and you should only post the URL with enough warning about the nature of the picture. here is the URL for the picture

http://indianterrorism.bravepages.com/charred%20bodies%204.jpg

HP...

It was visible till 15 minutes ago...

And I apologise for the graphic picture... but Arjunm and Veeresh have been putting up concocted pictures- graphic pictures- for a long time... I am merely posting a real picture.

http://www.ibnlive.com/article.php?id=3453§ion_id=3&single=true
http://www.ibnlive.com/article.php?id=3454§ion_id=3&single=true


Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt? You say nothing is being sponsored from this side and yet the December status report of the American 9/11 Commission says and I quote, “Musharraf has not shut down terrorist camps.” Your own newspaper, The Post, on 27th December says and again I quote, “ In January 2002 General Musharraf banned some Jehadi outfits and launched a crackdown. But it is far from complete or consistent as despite the setbacks they suffered, underground groups have not slowed down their activities.

President Musharraf: Now, either believe me or anyone else. There is no training camp here and there is nothing being sponsored across the borders. Now, this is a statement, which I am making with complete conviction and complete sincerity. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who say a lot of things. If you see the media there are a lot of opposite views given. This is my sincere view and I know that this is true and I have told this to all the leadership, whenever we have met. We have done so much, I have done so much that no other person could have done. But there has been no response and all the time the pressure is on me to do more and more. I think enough is enough. We need to move forward in the peace process.

Karan Thapar: You began saying ``either believe me or believe someone else`` and there was a hint of frustration, perhaps anger that people aren`t believing you. Let me explain why many people in India turned out and say: Despite General Musharaf`s constant assurance, its hard to believe him. Not just Pakistani papers like The Post, which I quoted a moment ago, but even The Herald magazine in July said that 13 terrorist training camps had opened up in Manshera in your country and these were run by organisations like the Lashkar-e-Toiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammad, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen. Is the Pakistani press working against your own comments?

President Musharraf: Yes, there are some, because we believe in the independence of the press. You are talking about The Herald. Take the Herald and read it, do you see a single positive article? Whereas so many positive things are going on in Pakistan. So, leave that aside. We have let independence be, because we hope that maturity is coming in. Now, you have spoken about Manshera and you have spoken about LeT operating there for earthquake relief. LeT is not operating, it is Jamat-ud-Dawa.

Karan Thapar: But it is the same organisation under a new name.

President Musharraf: No. Yes, I know that but it is not a banned organisation.

Karan Thapar: But they have just changed name and continued?

President Musharraf: Well, it has linkages but it`s not the same. It has its linkages as long as it is there. It has not even been banned abroad. LeT is a banned organisation in the UN. This one is not banned.

Thapar: But it`s the same organisation, with the same man as the head.

President Musharraf: No, If they are there and they are carrying out relief operations, and they are doing a good job, I have no reason to stop anyone who is not banned and doing a good job or relief in the people. Why should I stop anyone? So, that`s the issue. Now, when you spoke of training camps, by the way this earthquake is exactly in that area, Manshera area. There are dozens of helicopters and people from all over the world operating there. US is also flying helicopters. Have they seen any training camp in Kashmir or on this side.

Karan Thapar: I want to quote you from US documents the November status report of the 9/11 commission, “Two months after the earthquake, terrorists from Pakistan carried out operations in Kashmir.” The same thing was echoed six months earlier by the International Crisis Group; I know you don’t like them so I won’t remind you what they said. I am quoting the American 9/11 instead.


And


Karan Thapar: The point I am making is that you weren’t simply criticized in April. In a strang way the criticism that you faced has become more strident since them. One of the concerns today being expressed in the Pakistan press is that Musharraf is making all the concessions and the Indian side won’t budge, Ayaz Amir, one of your country’s foremost commentators said. From your smile I can make out perhaps that you are not you fond of the man. But one of you foremost commentors in October said “The composite dialogue in settling into a familiar pattern. India doesn’t budge to induce movement, Pakistan throws in a concession. Nothing happens from India, Pakistan makes more concessions.


President Musharraf: You select people who are unbalanced. He is not a balanced man. Let me say and please project this on the TV. I am sending a message to Ayaz Amir that he is an unbalanced man. You read any of his articles, they are all unbalanced. He doesn’t what he is talking. Now, if you take his article and think that this is Pakistan’s view, I am afraid I am not agreeing with you at all.

Re:HP and Manto

Why cant u guys provide the URL for the story so that we know when and where it occured and under what circumstances? Just posting some picture and claiming atrocities is just propaganda.

Sadna ... look at yourself... you are up in the middle of the night trying to drive home an esoteric point about Musharraf to feel good about yourself..

Meanwhile your countrymen are brutally murdering and burning alive Christians and Muslims in India...

Shame on you.

Yasser 14 & 6, please be assured that I have not edited any photo posted by you.

However, having said that, please provide me with more details on this Dr. Abbas incident in Delhi. On searching Abbas Delhi in google images, I get this most amazing image of Diana Hayden in a bikini on somebody`s lap.

HP 12, Delhi is lately full of people from Baluchistan, trying to drum up support. In addition, Baluchi and other Pakistani refugees are finding their way through the desert into India, in a situation that reminds one of 1970/71. Marianna Babbar in her latest report on the Indo-Pak border says that nobody from the Pakistani media has ever been anywhere near that border in decades and so brother Yasser`s statement that Pakistani media does 24x7 reportage from further up is even more flawed. And most of all, there are enough people in India of Baluchi origin and background including the undersigned for whom the Baluchistan problems are relevant.

Poor Natwar Singh may be causing a storm in the houses of his sort in Pakistan, but here in India he and his page-3 type family are already in the dustbins of history. We are moving ahead!!

Ranjit...

There is as great a URL for the story I posted as all of Veeresh`s wonderful stories about Jehad boxes on Lahore`s railway station... or Arjunm`s famous Balochistan attrocities...

Are you suggesting however that Christians and Muslims have not been repeatedly burnt alive in the great secular republic of India?

Veeresh,

With all due respect ...How can one believe a dishonest old crook like yourself?

I assure you I will provide you the details as soon as you provide me the details (as in a picture/story) about the ``Jehad boxes`` on Lahore`s railway station... (Shaukat Khanum fundraising and SOS village is not a jehad box mind you)...

As soon as you provide such a link confirming ``jehad boxes`` on Lahore railway station, I will provide you not only the cheeda cheeda Kawaif of Dr Abbas of New Delhi and his burning alive by the Hindu mob.... but also his exact address so that you can go help his family members living in destitute conditions like most Indian Muslims (Except ofcourse Premji).

Manto,

I am trying to put a context on your picture. Did it happen 10 years back or 10 days back? How is it relevant to Kashmir or anything else in this article?

As far as I know, there have been no communal riots in Delhi since 1984 and that incident was against the Sikhs. If you are making a generic point, then there are many such generic points against Pakistan. An entire mohalla of Christians was burnt down a few years back with several casualties under pretences that someone had committed blasphemy.

If you want to just put up a picture and provoke everybody, that is your choice. People in 1947 used to do this kind of hate mongering to fire up people`s communal passions on both sides.

actually according to an indian newspaper columnist, mms thinks quite highly of mush even comparing him to ataturk. this begs the following question:

i. why does mms think that pak needs an ataturk who certainly was not a democrat?

ii. who will be india`s ataturk?

http://www.dawn.com/2006/01/07/op.htm

...The prime minister says he was impressed by President Musharraf at their meeting in New York and that he may go to Pakistan to meet him.

...He is full of praise for President Musharraf for trying to modernize his country. He may well turn out to be another Kamal Ataturk. “I wish him well,” says the prime minister. “But he must appreciate my difficulties. I have told him that I could not change the borders, nor divide the state on the basis of religion. I have no such mandate from the nation.”

Back to the article, now that we`ve dealt with Yasser`s fake photos.

Why should India not drag the Baluchistan issue to the fore? With thousands of Pakistani refugees in India from 1971 still not accepted by Pakistan, we now face the real-time reality of Baluchi and Sindhi refugees finding escape from tyrannical despotism by the Pakistani Armed Forces.

What would you expect India to do?

I think India has the freedom to do what is correct, just as you have the freedom to write what you feel is correct. What eventually happens, that is not for us to influence, is it?

#21 by veeresh

Do you even know how Baloch look like? Bhayias in delhi cant even imitate Baloch.

“Baluchi and other Pakistani refugees are finding their way through the desert”

Which desert?
Can you name just two or three out of them? It will not be hard for me to get the confirmation.
Indians don’t understand the Baloch issue. The army is handling it badly but that still does not take it to a scale where Baloch would rise up against the Pakistan.

It is a problem but unlike Indians who blame ISI for problems in nagaland and Assam, I just don’t think Indian have any ability to even influence that area slightly.

manmohan singh already said that we will work with Mushraaf and so did the earlier PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee that made lot of progress.
While we know he is architect of kargil, we dont need to forget it and start beliving his words. His words are for local consumption of Pak media and fooder for people who wants to argue Mushraaf is sincere.
We dont need to trust mushraaf but we can still work around his lies and see what can be done to get peace in kashmir so that the army can be brought back.
What India did in Sri Lanka was wrong. We killed our own people. I do not know that compares anything to do with Pakistani trained terrorist.
Just by naming Azad Kashmir does not make it azad. It is occupied by Pakistan and even a good chunk is donated to china.
The reason we need peace initiative, person to person contact so that pakistan can rely alot on India for business that might make it infeasible to wage full scale, partial or proxy war with India.
Indian politician has found lot of ways to cheat indian government and they dont need to rely just on military expenditure. we have fodder scam and whole lot of money gets disappeared while building infrastructure that is low grade.
Terrorist dont seek permission, they are encourage and abetted by government of pak to kill.
If Pak stops terrorism. Then few local militants will not be able to act and soon maybe in 6-12 months will stop operating and we will have peace like in punjab. Just as we have withdrawn army from punjab, we will withdraw from kashmir.
Lady, there is no need to believe mushraaf, we should believe or rely on our government. If we see end in killing for an extended period of time and the government gives clean chit to pakistan for its support of training to militants then we believe mushraaf words otherwise we dont.
If we dont have mechanism to stop state sponsered terrorism then we should built one. This could be highlighted in media.
Telugu pride and dravidian movement got legitimized when they won election. unless jklf and other groups stand in election and win they are terrorist organization.
How many peace proposal did mushraaf bring through offical channels. peace talks are not media circus. there needs to be an agenda when two leaders meet. there needs to be legwork done between two parties and then higher officials meet.
Gujarat riots were abberations but narendra modi is not. no offical complaint has been made to justice system by cohots of teesta setalvad.
You put your money where ever you want. it could be in thongs of a stripper or on mushraaf. be prepared to be titiliated by either but its not going to get you lasting happiness or peace.

Yasser/various, you are on dangerous ground now.

Your insisting on proof by photographs of jihad boxes at Lahore Station brings into focus the whole issue of a particular religion for which I have a lot of respect forbidding photography or in any way depicting pictures of its Prophet.

Since the said Jihad boxes at Lahore Railway Station are placed there in the name of the Prophet, photographing them was and still is banned.

HOWEVER, you will recall the media coverage given by the Pakistani media itself about removal of said jihad boxes from many parts of Lahore. So, if they weren`t there, then why were they removed?

Get back to reality, Yasser, and quickly. Move around the beautiful country of Pakistan and learn about it, instead of just trying to give the rest of us a view from GulBurger.

Fake photos veeresh? The only fake photos is what you put up. Fake is all your stories...

By showing such callous attitude towards Indian citizens, while exhibiting mock concern for Balochistan`s Bugti tribe, shows that you are an extremely unbalanced person...

Veeresh 29,

So basically you admit that you never had proof... and that you are a liar.

Well are you denying that the charred bodies in those pictures were indeed Indians of Muslim faith? Is an Indian Muslim less important than a Bugti tribesman eh Veeresh?

Mantolives #30

`` By showing such callous attitude towards Indian citizens, while exhibiting mock concern for Balochistan`s Bugti tribe, shows that you are an extremely unbalanced person... ``

Baluchistan will be a long term problem for Pakistan if the Punjabi dominated army insists on siphoning the budget for military. It does not help the natural gas in Baluchistan is being siphoned off to Punjab. Are the urban dwellers in Punjab willing to pay market rates for natural gas ? Have you checked the market rates lately for natural gas. The ranting of Indians on Chowk is not going to change that aspect of reality

HP/27, my connections with Baluchistan are twofold:-

a) Through 7 Baluch, where my family is still held in honour.
b) Through Burma, which I do not wish to explain here.

What the Baluchis want is simple, and not extravagant either. Briefly:-


1- Monitor and higlight the human rights conditions of the Baluch in Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

2- Counter the trend of Taliba`anization in Baluchistan and help end Al Qaeda sleeping cells in all Baluch territories.

3- End nuclear testing on the soil of Baluchistan and getting the sites of the Chagai test opened for international inspections.

4- Endeavor to end the patriarchal Sardari system in Baluchistan.

5- Struggle to get full acceptance of African and mixed raced Baluch as equals in the Baluch diaspora.

6- End the oppression of Baluchi women, tribeless looris, and other minority groups within Baluch society.

7- Defeat moves to declare Zikris as non-Muslims.

8- Work with all Baluch opposition groups that are targets of victimization by Pakistani and Iranian state forces.

9- Counter moves to build army cantonments on Baluchistan soil.

10- Work in cohesion with other oppressed linguistic groups of southwest and south Asia, especially Sindhis and Pashtuns.

11- Inculcate respect for all great religious traditions of the world, especially Christianity,
Hinduism, Judaism and Buddhism among the Baluch.

12- Create awareness of Baluchistan, its issues and its people among the secular democracies of the United States, European Union, Canada, India and Israel.

+++

Enough for you, or do you also want a map of Baluchistan?

Bbabu 32:

Obviously...

But then identify the real problem...

What is India`s role or what should be its role?

Read post #3

Your family is still held in honour... still cashing your father`s name eh Mr Malik? The Baloch regiment is part of the Pakistan Army- which is the part of the problem anyway...

You have NO connection to Balochistan... the Baloch tribes- the ones fighting against the pakistan army- would have a Hindu like you for breakfast... talk about talibanisation.

``through burma which I do not wish to explain here``

Ah- the man of mystery... do you think you are James Bond- or the Indian version of James Bond Mr Malik... you have no connection through Burma- get a life and give up your fantasies... you are NOT an army officer... you don`t fly jets ... you are not a RAW agent... and you are definitely no James Bond... Look at yourself in the mirror for god`s sake man!

actually the pak army can have the baluchis for breakfast, lunch and dinner thank you very much. and this is not an idle claim because it was pak army that conqured afghanistan by defeating the elements that beat soviet union. akber bugti`s outfit is a mom and pop opeartion compared to them. also in case people have not noticed, 12 iranian soldiers have been kidnapped from inside iran from an area close to baluchistan border. kidnapping is a message to iranians to tighten their act and stop the flow of support to baluchis. iranians will see the light pretty soon.

How did this discussion veer off to Balochistan of all places? Is one random statement by India enough to start a whole different point of discussion between Indian and Pakistani posters???

Farzan,
nice writing.To tell you the truth I comprehend your article for the first time
`The uprising in Baluchistan goes back to the 70s; we felt no concern at the time. Suddenly, we wake up and start questioning the authority of the Pakistani military to use guns and helicopters against the innocents`
right you are ,India has no authority to talk about our internal affairs.
as far as kashmir is concerned , musharraf is keen to solve it .it`s India who is not ready to leave that part.

Re:faisaluno#35

Vow, it must feel really good conquering your own citizens!! This is not the first time. Pak army has been conquering Pakistan for the past 60 years.

And puhleeze!! Dont boast about Afghanistan. The pushtoons under the Taliban flag conquered Afghanistan. If the Pak army ventured there, the Afghans would have made keema out of you. If you try any pangas with India, the Sikhs and Rajputs will make keema out of you. So the only people you can kick around are the poor Baluchi tribes.

Stuka...

It happens... when the Indian in question is none other than Veeresh Bond, the man who doubles as an airline food critic during the day and fights Pakistani oppression at night.

Maybe Ms. Versey is Mantolives in drag. H`m.

Sadna,

Pathetic as usual... is all I can say.

Now what would make you say something like that. Come to think of it you do resemble Veeresh a lot in real life. Are you Veeresh?

ranjit man, why would pak want to attack a dirt poor stink hole country full of smelly diseased people like india? plus pakistanis kicked hindus and sikhs out of pak cause we did not want to live next door to them. so we certainly dont want army to go into india.

``Let us stop this charade. If we cannot trust President Musharraf, then let us be honest and upfront and tell him, “Look sir, you are a liar, a cheat, a dictator. ``

And Sir, we not saying the above, Your own people are saying this. Whom should we believe--ourselves, yourselves or your people?

``Incidentally, Musharraf has gone on record to say that he has banned many such organisations and those that have come up under different guises are in the ‘watch list’.``

But he ensures that the banned outfit has acquired a new name and all the assets of the old outfit have been transferred to a new one.

``He did say that he would invite Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to attend any of the matches in the series being played in Pakistan, ``

Yes. A Cricket Ground is the best place to discuss contentious diplomatic issues. Put up a proposal, wait for the bowler to ball and batsman to hit. If its a four, we go this way.If its a six, we go that way. If its a single, we go another way. And by the time match ends, we would have made much progress which otherwise would not have been possible.

``I would put my money on trusting Pervez Musharraf. ``

You would be inviting CBI/I.Tax people for flaunting you (illgotten) money.

Thanks for the article. I think the anchor in that CNN-IBN interview was a typical specimen of the mentality some Indians have. He interrupted Musharraf several times, was absolutely impolite and uncultured - I wonder how he got to interview Musharraf in the first place. Musarraf should have ignored the idiot, instead of engaging in the argument.

Dear Farzana

You hav a valid point.

Each Govt in India since indepandence could not figure out how to deal with pakistan. Everytime they dealt with Pakistan they treated it as equal. This is India`s weak position.

Indira Gandhi had a golden oppurtunity in 1971 to fix Pakistan but she blew it up, because she was a politically a bully. Where inaction was required she activly sent the Indian Army in the disguise of Mukti Bahini. If she had not sent the Indian Army in Bangladesh guess what Musharraf today would have been fighting in Dhaka instead of sermonising the Indians.

Intervention in Bangladesh in 1971 was India`s biggest mistake. Indira Gandhi the darkest chapter in the Indian History wasted the golden oppurtunity of not doing any thing and reaping golden reward.

But now the world has changed and we will have to wait for another 50 years. Becauise in 50 Wahabi`s will be out of petrol and so will be rest of the Muslim world and then no body will care for them and as in the begining of 2o th century they will be back in the desert and discuss the words of Allah with their sheeps and Camels. I don`t think India has any other option for that reason even the West will have to wait for another 50 years.

Mantolives # 4 [I believe Musharraf is sincere in all that he wants - modern pluralist relatively secular Pakistan, women`s rights, stable democracy and peace with India...]

According to Mantolives:

- Pakistanis are willing to get women and children of other Pakistanis who beg to differ blown to bits by missile totting army, so that we can have a pluralist Pakistan.
- Pakistanis are willing to get ruled by a dictator, so that so we can have a stable democracy.
- Pakistanis are willing to have their leader tell the world that women get raped to get canadian visa, just that we can get women`s rights

There is no telling what this deranged fellow can spew.

#12 by HP on January 8, 2006 10:02pm PT


Indians neither have the political will nor the military muscle to change anything on the ground.


Indians don`t need to change squat...India is the status quo power...

To quote the great Jinnah: Kashmir is Pakiland`s jugular vein...and a good part of the vein is in India`s control...

Farzana going to the mound for her country and her dictator...color me shocked...

#37 by antamazol on January 8, 2006 11:19pm PT


as far as kashmir is concerned , musharraf is keen to solve it .it`s India who is not ready to leave that part.


Yup...bab bad India...won`t give to Pakistan on a platter what it failed to win in repeated wars and insurgencies...

YLH
[....these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me...]

Yep .... with friends like you, India probably wouldn`t need any enemies ....

HP/27
[.... I just don’t think Indian have any ability to even influence that area slightly. ]

Probably not..... but then don`t be too sure..... you pakis have history of making such assumptions to your own detriment.......India won`t cross border - 1965 war..... Defence of east lies in west....strategic depth....1 paki = 10 hinud.... and more

Re:faisaluno#42

Ha ha!! Angoor khattey hain.....Grapes are sour!!

What happened to hoisting Pak flag on Red Fort? Has ke liya Pakistan, lad ke lenge Hindusan? Phat gayi?

What happened to Afghanistan and strategic depth? Phir se Phat gayi?

What happened in 1971? Poor Niazi begging in front of Arora? What about Kargil? Nawaz Sharif wetting his chaddis in front of Clinton....He he.....

Go and give medals to your army!! They are indeed the bravest. They are the pride of the muslim world, after all they can conquer baloch tribes and poor mohajirs....ha ha......

Having watched the Musharaf/Thapar one-on-one on IBN television (website is ibnlive dot com . . .) I would like to put forth that the issue is more whether Pakistan can now trust Musharaf or not.

The body language and ready repartee was much better a few years ago.

It really doesn`t matter whether India trusts him or not anymore. Opinions and beliefs may differ, but the destination seems to be quite clear.

For all this talk of Kashmir, shouldn`t the pakis be concerned about a foreign army bombing and killing paki citizens in Paki territory?

Pakistan protests to U.S. over border firing

SLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan has lodged a strong protest with U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan after cross-border firing over the weekend killed eight people.

U.S. authorities had denied their troops were involved in the firing on Saturday in the restive, semi-autonomous North Waziristan tribal region, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam told a regular briefing on Monday.

Although Pakistan did not know who was behind the firing, U.S.-led forces were responsible for the area, she said.

``We have also lodged a strong protest with coalition forces in Afghanistan,`` she said.

``We have protested to coalition forces because they are responsible for security on the other side,`` she said.

On the day of the incident in the Mir Ali area, residents said they believed a helicopter gunship attacked the house of a religious scholar who supports Afghanistan`s Taliban guerrillas.

Eight people, including a woman, were killed and nine wounded, residents said at the time. The scholar was not killed, they said.

Aslam confirmed that eight people had been killed.

Pakistani authorities were also investigating reports from residents that a foreign helicopter had landed on the Pakistani side of the border on Saturday, she said.

Dear dishonest malik (and I don`t mean Veeresh who is also a dishonest malik):

Did you not read the post 2 in entirety...


The problem is that his fashion is arbitrary and therefore I am not going to put my money on him...


Sorry to disagree with you but if India really wants to make peace with Pakistan, here is what it needs to do:

1- While demonising Pakistani Military, don`t demonise Pakistan and its people.

2- Instead of clamouring for the rights of ``oppressed groups``, imagined or real, call for and forcefully call for the revival of Pakistan`s constitution and its status as a democracy...


Because these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me... and there are many like me.

I am highlighting it for the dishonest crook ...

Like Reagan said - ``trust but verify``.....since verification on Mushy has failed repeatedly - naturally, nobody trusts him.... I mean - pakis themselves don`t trust him [he told them something about the doffing the uniform, but enver did].... the world is puzzled over his double-faced actions on terrorism.....

so what the f*** is the lady ranting about?.....

re: this article
Another crap and like all craps are, this one stinks from a mile.
Looks like this author is clearly saying Mushyrat is good and Indian establishment is bad. AT least that is how i read it. Not surprising considering what her affiliations are.
Look at this statement:
(Let us stop this charade. If we cannot trust President Musharraf, then let us be honest and upfront and tell him, “Look sir, you are a liar, a cheat, a dictator. We are a peace-loving nation; non-violence is our anthem. There is no common ground. We’ll take a raincheck when every citizen in our country is healthy, happy and prosperous. When no bullet is fired, no innocent dies, no one is wrongfully arrested.” )
What to make of the above except that this wretched person has willfully distorted everything that Indians consider sacred.
Mushyrat is a dictator and one who wants to solve the Kashmir problem in his nation`s favor but does not know how. He tried force (Kargil) that failed miserably. So, he is now trying diplomacy, an art in which he, pardon my language, suck$.
In this interview with Karan Thapar Mushy boy looks confused as
Thapar whips Mushy A$$ into shape
Excerpts:
(President Musharraf: Yes, there are some, because we believe in the independence of the press. You are talking about The Herald. Take The Herald and read it, do you see a single positive article? Whereas so many positive things are going on in Pakistan. So, leave that aside. We have let independence be, because we hope that maturity is coming in.Now, you have spoken about Manshera and you have spoken about LeT operating there for earthquake relief. LeT is not operating, it is Jamat-ud-Dawa.

Thapar: But it is the same organisation under a new name.

President Musharraf: No. Yes, I know that but it is not a banned organisation.

Thapar: But they have just changed name and continued?

President Musharraf: Well, it has linkages but it`s not the same. It has its linkages as long as it is there. It has not even been banned abroad. LeT is a banned organisation in the UN. This one is not banned.

Thapar: But it`s the same organisation, with the same man as the head.

President Musharraf: No, If they are there and they are carrying out relief operations, and they are doing a good job, I have no reason to stop anyone who is not banned and doing a good job or relief in the people. Why should I stop anyone? So, that`s the issue. Now, when you spoke of training camps, by the way this earthquake is exactly in that area, Manshera area. There are dozens of helicopters and people from all over the world operating there. US is also flying helicopters. Have they seen any training camp in Kashmir or on this side.

Thapar: I want to quote you from US documents the November status report of the 9/11 commission, ``Two months after the earthquake, terrorists from Pakistan carried out operations in Kashmir.`` The same thing was echoed six months earlier by the International Crisis Group; I know you don’t like them so I won’t remind you what they said. I am quoting the American 9/11 instead.

President Musharraf: This is wrong. Absolutely wrong, they were sympathisers here certainly. Over the 15 years, whatever has gone on. We have come a long way as I have said. There are no training camps and there is nothing happening across the borders. And the proof of it is that in azaad Kashmir, all over azaad Kashmir, Mujafarabad area, Bagh area, Rawalcoat area, these are our forward areas. If you go and visit the places, and see the foreigners traveling around. Have they seen in training camp in Manshera. They are flying all over the place. I challenge anyone to say that comment now.

Thapar: You began this interview by saying `believe me or believe someone else`, I, for the purpose of this interview, will believe you. Others will make up their minds themselves. Let me put in like this, if there are no training camps, if you have actually done everything that you can to stop terrorism, and it’s a close chapter as you said, then what assurance can you give the Indian government verbal or otherwise so that they believe you that terror is not being used as a weapon, the Jehadi outfit are not used as weapon.

President Musharraf:I have given an assurance umpteen number of times. I have given this assurance to Prime Minister so many times and if he doesn’t believe and he believes other, well it’s a sad story. But if the gaze is what happens in your part of Kashmir, the Indian-held Kashmir as we call it, over the terrorist activity there or the bomb blast in Delhi or any other place and you blame us as having sponsored that, that is absolutely baseless.

Thapar: And they do blame you.

President Musharraf: Yes they do blame organisations here.

Thapar: And you are saying it is baseless.

President Musharraf: It is absolutely baseless.

Thapar: So you are giving an assurance to the Indian people.

President Musharraf: It may be some organisation of Pakistan here, which is banned, that may be involved. Now I can’t guarantee that. We would like to move against them. That is my assurance. We would like to move against any militancy, against any civilian, anywhere in India or world.

Thapar: You are saying that if it’s happening, it is happening without your support, without your approval. And you will continue to take effort to ban those organisations, which should be banned. But somehow manage to operate.

President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely.

Thapar: That’s a guarantee.

President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely.

Thapar: The Indian people are listening to you.

President Musharraf: Absolutely, they should listen to me and I have banned, its me who has banned all the organisations. And I am prepare to ban anyone who is involved and we are keeping watch on this Jamat-ud-Dawa, because the are on the watch list and we have restricted; we are watching them very carefully. They are only involved in relief efforts and nothing else.

Thapar: And as you said, the moment you discover they are doing something more than relief, something that’s tantamount the terrorism, you will ban them.

President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely.)
Mushyrat is a dirty pig. That is why his reliability quotient is zero. Nobody in his/her right sense will believe him. Nobody in US foreign policy desk (South asian bureau) believes him though he is needed to do their dirty job.
I want to touch on the theme of India having many insurgencies. Author of this article does not seem to differentiate between the insurgencies in India (which is India`s internal affair) and the one in Kashmir which is kept active by Pakistan. BTW, I would love this author to narrate to us the 19 insurgencies in India. Only some are of any significance. Rest, like the Telengana are easily contained. Naga insurgency is perhaps the longest lasting but even they are looking now to a peaceful settlement.
(What did we achieve by dragging the Baluchi issue to the fore? The Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Ahmed Sherpao said, ``India is supporting the miscreants in Balochistan.`` )
If Pak is interfering in India`s internal affairs, why can`t India pay back in the same coin. Pak often talks about human rights violations in Kashmir.
Terrible human rights violations are happening in Balochistan as the above link clearly shows, with some graphic images that would make anyone shudder. India should interfere in Balochistan because of human rights issues and to help Balochis attain their dream of self-determination.
Sridhar

re:#4 by Mantolives
For Manto`s eyes only:
Why India is a better place for muslims than Pakistan
Excerpt:
a comment by a Paki (or perhaps an enlightened Indian muslim)
(The emergence of Pakistan on the map of the this world is a spot on the face of this civilized world. As long as Pakistan ia alive, there will be no peace persist in the south Asian region. Pakistan will continiue her illegitmate adventurism and nefarious design to destabilize the governments in the region. Pakistan will literally produce more fundamentalists in order to creat distrbances for India and Afghanistan as well. The Balochs are being sufferred since the unfortunate emergence of this illigitimate country and also the creation of this country became a curse for Afghanistan and India. I strongly believe that the extiniction of this useless country will be in the interest of the world in general and south asian region in particular)
Sridhar

rsridhar...

Quoting some Balochi dissident is all fine and dandy... but what are you going to tell these dead Mooslums ?

Versey is beiung true and faithful to her quam. Nothing more needs to be said. She fights for her side. We fight for our side. She has her beliefs. We have ours. And the twain shall never meet. As simple as that.

re:(#20 by Mantolives on January 8, 2006 10:22pm PT
Sadna ... look at yourself... you are up in the middle of the night trying to drive home an esoteric point about Musharraf to feel good about yourself..

Meanwhile your countrymen are brutally murdering and burning alive Christians and Muslims in India...

Shame on you.)
For Manto`s eyes only:
Atrocities against christians in Pakistan
Excerpts:
(Nuns, teachers and 23 terrified schoolgirls crammed into a small upstairs room of the besieged convent as more than 1,500 men, incensed by rumours of Qur`an desecration, swarmed outside. Fr Dilawar watched from the roof as they smashed the altar of the parish church, tore up copies of the Bible and shattered the stained-glass windows. They sprayed fuel over his house and a girls` school next door. Minutes later flames were licking the walls and black smoke filled the sky.

Article continues
Finally they crashed through the heavy convent door, sending the priest running for safety into the room where nine nuns were praying. ``They tried to break the door down but did not succeed. Otherwise we could have all been killed,`` he said.

The rampage at Sangla Hill earlier this month has shocked Pakistan`s Christian community and highlighted the fragile position of religious minorities in an overwhelmingly Muslim country. Two other churches - one Presbyterian, the other Salvation Army - and at least six Christian houses were also destroyed in normally peaceful market town about 140 miles south of Islamabad. Most worrying the violence lasted several hours but local police were unable, or unwilling, to stop it.)
While chrisitans in Pak are on the run,
Paki men are killing their own women with impunity
(Killings in the name of honour

In August 1998, Zarina 0and her alleged paramour, Suleiman, were killed in village Gul Mohammad Brohi, Larkana district, by Zarina`s three brothers.

In April 1998, a young man in the Punjab village Chak No. 65, axed his mother, Ghulam Bibi, to death after she was traced by her family and brought back home following her supposed elopement with a man.

In Kot Addu, near Multan, Naziran, a mother of six was axed to death by her brother on suspicion of an illicit relationship in November 1997.

On 29 April 1999, Shama Bibi, 16, wife of Saif Khan, living in Kahuta, Punjab, was shot by her husband on suspicion of her having an illicit relationship. She received bullet injuries in her abdomen and her condition was stated to be critical; it is not known if she survived.

On 6 January 1999, Ghazala was set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab province on suspicion of illicit relations with a neighbour. The burned and naked body reportedly lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to have anything to do with it.

In Pakistan, hundreds of women, of all ages, in all parts of the country and for a variety of reasons connected with perceptions of honour are killed every year. The number of such killings appears to be steadily increasing as the perception of what constitutes honour - and what damages it - steadily widens. Often honour killings are carried out on the flimsiest of grounds, for instance when a wife does not serve a meal quickly enough or when a man dreams that his wife betrays him (see below). As state institutions - the law enforcement apparatus and the judiciary - have dealt with such crimes against women with extraordinary leniency, and as the law provides many loopholes for murderers in the name of honour to get away, the tradition remains unbroken. In fact, more and more killings committed for other motives take on the guise of honour killings on the correct assumption that they are rarely -- and if so, only lightly -- punished.)
Sridhar

I hope Indian politicians and indian people never trust Musharraf and never take anything he says at the face value.

re:#25 by faisaluno
MMS is a humble man who has risen by hardwork. He is one of the few diehard honest people in India, literally incorruptible.
He believes that Mushy wants to do something good for Pak. That may be true but Mushy does not know how to go about it. Being a dictator for a long time is the best way to repeat another 1971. Mushy thinks he is always right (see the interview with Thapar where he is saying even people like Ayaz Amir are a joke!), a sign of megalomania.
Sridhar

Rsridhar...

Yes absolutely- it is a blot on the Pakistani nation... but I thought we were talking about Muslims... Please also point out whether thousands of them were burnt alive as was the case in Gujurat... where enmasse burning was routine.

And what of these boys- they were not even Muslim... why were they burnt alive?

INDIA: Shame on India: Children Burnt Alive by Extremists

AHRC Urgent Appeal Against Attack on Religious Minorities

The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) condemns the increasing violent killings of Christian minorities in India. The Commission calls on the Indian government to immediately stop the killings and respect human rights of the minority communities.

We are requesting the central and state governments to ensure that impartial investigations are carried out into all allegations of violations against the Christian and Muslim minorities and that anyone found responsible be brought to justice.

AHRC is shocked and seriously concerned about the increasing religious violence that led to the recent killings of foreign missionaries.

On 24 January 1999 Australian Protestant missionary Graham Stewart Staines, 58, and his two young sons, Philip, 10, and Timothy, 6, were burnt alive to death inside a van they were sleeping. Since 1965 Staines had helped treat victims in leprosy area. According to reports, the police have arrested 47 suspects who are members of a Hindu nationalist group, Bajrang Dal, in connection with the Staines killings in the eastern Orissa state.

Background Information

The existence of Hindu extremism within ultra-nationalist political parties or parties attracted by ultra-nationalism like the Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP, or Indian People`s Party), Bajrang Dal, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP, or World Hindu Council), Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS, or National Volunteers Association) and Shiv Sena is a serious threat to religious tolerance.

India is a nation of diverse religions and languages governed by a secular State. The 1949 Constitution of India declares the nation to be a ``sovereign secular State.`` Article 15 declares that ``the State shall not discriminate against any citizens on grounds only of religion....`` There is no law banning proselytism by 23 million Indian Christians, but the government has refused to admit new resident missionaries since the mid-1960s.

On 2 September 1997, in Dumka, Bihar, a Jesuit priest, Father Swaminathan Christudas, vice-principal and hostel superintendent of St. Joseph’s School, was beaten with sticks and forced to parade naked.

In March 1998, the pro-Hindu Bharatiya party gained power in Gujarat. That year alone Hindu extremists in the state launched 30 attacks on Christians. According to reports, police did not attempt to protect Christians from extremist attacks.

On 30 October 1998, members of Bajrang Dal attacked a convention of the Alpha Missionary Society. Although police were present, the delegates were beaten with sticks, belts, chains and fists by assailants. Forty people were injured. None of the Hindu extremists were arrested, instead others who came to inquire about the attack were arrested, detained and beaten.

There were also other incidents of attack that missionaries were harassed, churches and copies of the Bible burnt in Gujrat, women religious molested in Uttar Pradesh and four nuns raped in Madhya Pradesh. Two Christians, Rani Maria in Madhya Pradesh and K.T. Thomas in Bihar

re:#60 by Mantolives
Well,
Indians kill some, u guys kill some of your own. All for a good cause.
Sridhar

re:#65 by Mantolives
Human violations occur in India and they are investigaged. It ain`t a perfect world and some of us are aware of this. You will not find me trying to justify violence.
What happens in Pak is very different. It occurs in the name of religion and there is little legal redressal. Violence against women fall in a different category. There is no legal redressal at all.
Sridhar

So you are saying Indian Muslims are not Indian enough?

I knew you ascribed to Gandhian philosophy in full measure- ``I am a Hindu therefore a true Indian`` -

Rsridhar 67?

So the Muslims killed in Gujarat and the Australian Priest burnt alive were for ``Secular reasons``?

Wonderful.

re: Mushyrat on rape cases in Pakistan
Mushy says women in Pak get raped to become rich!
Only in Pak can a ruler say this and get away with it.
Excerpts:
(He said that rape was a ``money-making concern`` and many argued it was a way to get money and a visa to emigrate.

Pakistan`s most-high profile rape victim, Mukhtar Mai, told the BBC no woman could subject herself to ``such a horrendous experience`` to make money.)
Pakis must believe in what he says. Why else would they tolerate him and allow him to continue.
Sridhar

Yes- Musharraf is an a-hole. Hence my post #3

#70 by rsridhar on January 9, 2006 7:08am PT

The funniest thing about that was that he denied the whole thing and he expected the world to be in awe of his presidential status and accept his denial.....like they are in Pakiland...

The Washington Post smacked him down when they posted the audio of the interview..He had to cancel a newsconference in NZ because the reporters were sure to question him about this..

Seriously...someone tell mushy taking over Indian Kashmir isn`t as easy as taking over the paki PM`s palace...

India rejects Pakistan`s J&K demilitarisation plan

``As long as the security situation in Jammu and Kashmir and in other parts of the country is adversely affected by the
phenomenon of cross-border terrorism and violence perpetrated by Pakistan-based terrorist groups, the government of India will fulfil its responsibility to safeguard lives and security of its citizens,`` Sarna said.

He also rejected Musharraf`s proposal on self-governance in Jammu and Kashmir, saying the state already enjoyed autonomy.

The point of this article is not, if India is secular enough, or if India treats muslims and other minorities well. The article is trying to make a case for Indians to trust Musharraf and Pakistan. IMO the article does not make a convincing case at all. Musharraf is someone who betrayed his own country by usurping powers and suspending the constitution (no matter how pathetic, it is still the constitution of Pakistan and should be accorded highest respect by all Pakistanis).

Jo apne desh ka nahi ho saka woh kisi aur ka kya hoga?

Re # 3

``Because these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me... and there are many like me. ``

It is not a one way street. What are Pakistanis willing to do to win a lot more friends
in India?

Pakistan can gain some trust by arresting and deporting Daud Ibrahim for starters. Then we can talk about Azhar Mahmood.

re: faisaluno # 35

Glad to know that some one else also knows, what is the reality of the problems in Baluchistan. :)

re: Mantolives

Yes, Bugti does not equal Baluchistan. Incidently, the grandson of Bugti has a Ferrari, which cost the tax payer $ 600,000 and he drives it on a private track, made only for him, and which is one of few paved surfaces in the area controlled by Bugti. Every winter, Bugti starts to ask more money for gas royalties and when he runs out of money, and wants more for personal reasons, he claims oppression. He is nothing more than a small time black mailer and a bully to the boot.

The government of Pakistan has given untold billions to the trio of sardars in Baluchistan; Bugti, Mengal and Marri and yet, none of them spent a penny on the development of their regions. One gentleman told me that he was sent to Baluchistan after the problems of the 1970s, with the instructions to bring development to region and his task was to bring piped water to an area controlled by Bugti. When he asked, based on population needs, of how many pipe lines were needed in the area; he was told that only one was needed!

When he persisted and agrued that one pipe line was not enough for the region, he was duly informed that one pipe was needed to bring water to Bugti` residence only and there was no need to provide water to the people. When he complained, Bugti had him transfered out of Dera Bugti.

All of these three robber-barons have at one point or another ruled Baluchistan as governors and chief ministers and they could have done much for the province in the shape of development, but did nothing. This trio honestly thinks that the gas and the natural resources of Baluchistan are their property and personally belongs to them and not to the province and its people.

Bugti has satellite phones, which he uses to cry to to the media and yet, the people who live on his land are so poor that they cannot even afford to pay the dowry for a wife. Brothers in a family pool their money and then marry a woman; first the eldest brother marries the woman and after some time, usually after the birth of a child, divorces her and the next oldest brother then marries her and hence, the pattern repeats itself and the poor woman is handed down brother to brother. People who live in Bugti`s Dera are not allowed to have homes made of mud, because that is a solid structure and live in hatched dwellings. They have no gas to cook - they use wood to cook their meals; they have no electricity, because power only goes to the residence of Bugti and he pays no utility bills.

The trio of sardars are upset, because the recent spate of development in Baluchistan has the potential to weaken their feudal hold over the people. They are against education, development, family planning, health care, sanitition, women`s rights and any thing associated with progress. Gwadar has opened up a world to cloistered world of the Baluch and s/he is is being exposed to the world around them and the graph of expectation is increasing and the sardars are falling behind the curve and thus, are prone to violence to maintain their fleeting powers.

These people are truly the best examples of what Rumsfeld calls as the ``dead-enders``.

Baluchistan has 28 districts and the present trouble is only limited to two districts; Dera Bugti and Kohlu both controlled by Nawab Akbar Bugti. This is not an insurgency - this is the death spasm of a decayed and dying state of mind.

Baluchistan National Army is funded and tacitily supported by Iran, which sees Gwadar as a threat to its own port in the region, which it wants to access the CARs. Iran has a keen interest in fermenting problems in Baluchistan, because once Gwadar becomes operational, it will open up trade to CARs and more importantly, to western China. The distance from Gwadar to western China is less than the distance from Shanghai to western China! Furthermore, Iran is under a Congressional sanction that disbars trade with Iran and any nation trading with Iran; hence, EU and other nations wanting to access CARs will go through Gwadar, because that way, they will not run afoul of the domestic American laws that automatically impose sanctions on any nation or business trading with Iran.

Bugti favors Iranian involvment, because that stirs up the problems and slows down the pace of development in the region.

Bugti also controls the Jamboori Watan Party, which is just a political facade to Bugti`s self interests and this party represents Bugti and not the rights of the people of Baluchistan as it claims and most of the gullible Pakistanis believe.

The present problems in Baluchistan is the result of these three people not willing to accept that the days of yoke and lash, by which they have ruled are about end.

Ciao

P.S.: Sorry for the longish post...

Shishapa...

Absolutely nothing except work towards a democracy which is good for all countries of the region. Ofcourse if you were aware about the theories- democracies don`t go to war with democracies and a military firmly under the lock and key of the 1973 constitution would not be planning cross border funnelling of weapons...

Because these two will win India a lot more friends... it will win India a friend like me... and there are many like me.

What will India gain from having friends like Manto? The best they can do to harm India right now is abuse India and Indians on anonymous internet forums. Big fucking deal. I am not sure how they can help India or Indians even if India wins their friendship.

Re # 78

Manto,

I agree with that and like that. All the best.

ah- only time will tell... what I do or won`t do... but is it not good that I merely disagree with India and Indian hogwash through words and websites?

But I suppose you would prefer Military dictators and Maulvis who don`t stand for the constitution and who would send suicide bombers to blow up more of your countrymen...

So yes ... continue to pin your hopes on breaking up Pakistan - which is a pipe dream at best...

Shishapa...

I am glad you see the logic of the situation despite disagreement.

Incidently, the grandson of Bugti has a Ferrari, which cost the tax payer $ 600,000 and he drives it on a private track

Isn`t this a case of the pot calling the kettle black...If the bugti dude has a ferrari, the children of paki army officers have access to schools with petting zoos while average abdul has to send his kid to a saudi funded madrassah..

If Pakistan has a dismal education system, isn`t it because the military takes up a disprooprtionate amount of the budget?

A full General is worth Rs 500 million+

That`s not me...That`s Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa..

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous pieces of drivel I have ever read on Indo-Pak issues.

Sometimes i wonder if the rush to push articles out doesn`t in reality dilute research, common sense and topical knowledge required in ``journalism``.

Veeresh is absolutely correct...Musharraf and Pakistan have no leverage for demanding ``peace`` on any of their terms. In fact Pakistan cannot have peace in/with Kashmir/India as the only leverage the military has is to maintian the status quo to rationaize it`s interests in gov`t, economy, education, media etc etc.

The disparaty in the strengths and fortunes of the two countries are growing y/y and in a few years, peace will happen anyw