AMU at the Crossroads

Re : Kuhlaree # 57 & Jang#58
The issue is that the Arjun Singh wants to play sectarian politics. It does not matter if it’s a Aligarh Muslim University or some other University.

A similar issue that should be discussed is the 15% reservation in private colleges. We have very few private schools, and this will hurt them financially and will put some of them out of business. It will force Indian students to flock foreign universities. The real motivation of this law is to have govt. influence in private colleges.

Regards,

Faruk

``I already feel so proud of our PM`s eloquence, his soft spokenness, his depth of world knowledge, his vocabulary, his choice of words. He came across as a genuine world leader....... only his eyes were roaming around a little too much. He was not seeing straight.....next time his eye contact avoidance will be reduced (with the use of the horse`s blinders?). ....One more reason for us to be proud of Pakistan is our Prime Minister`` (Behram)

agree 100% -- now who wouldn`t be proud of a Prime Minister....whose eyes are roaming around too much...who was not seeing striaght.....who needs his eye contat avoidance reduced by a pair of horse`s Blinders -- indeed the fundamental requirements of a `genuine world leader`..........:)

indikad:

My reference to Jamia Milia was in response to Urstruly`s insinuation [``THE REASON PAKISTAN WAS INEVITABLE] that Pakistan was needed to protect Muslim institutions in India. As for minority status, AMU did not have a minority status at the time of the partition but was given that status by Indira Gandhi.

OU`s use of the sanskrit verse on its insignia is really interesting.

RE: #9 by Indian007
``Visit the AMU campus during an India-Pakistan match and observe which side the students are cheering for``

``Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies.`` Well I have been to the AMU. Never noticed this ``disgrace`` being acted out. Have`nt we had enough of this `India-Pakistan-cricket-match-India lose-Indian Muslim- celebrate` nonsense. We dont need demented cases like u in India anyways.

#28 by dost-mittar
``There was only one AMU at the time of the Partition. Now there are at least two others - Jamia Milia University in Delhi and Darul Huda Islamic Academy in Kerala``

Isn`t fair to add Jamia here. JMI is a Central University and not a Muslim minority institution like AMU. In fact JMI came up in protest against the support given by AMU intellectuals to the British in the pre-partition period. JMI today is a centre for excellence for subjects like communication and history. The JMI tarana sure is all about its land of birth.

#50 by harimau
Osmania University, again, isnt a Muslim minority institution. So what if it started off with Urdu as its medium. It was the most popular language with the old timers (esp those from Punjab) still using as a medium to communicate with their peers. BTW OU has ``Tamasoma Jyotirgamaya`` (from Darkness unto Illumination) on its Insignia. And its VC tells us that it was formed in 1918 and not 1908.

#51 and #56 by bolta_aaina
Buddy this is common of most Indians from the strata that the carpenter comes from, irrespective of religion. It is a fight out there to earn two sqaure meals a day. As far as testing the GK goes, ask most educated Indians if they can name the 7 north-eastern states (and I am not asking them about their capitals at all). Why harass a simple carpenter?

``I feel it is extremely difficult to make Muslims, I mean general Muslims, believe that being somewhat modern can be good for them``
Friend I think Indians of all faiths need to realise an important fact, Indian Muslims are NOT a monolithc block. ``General Muslims``?? WHO on earth is this general Muslim?? Please don`t make blanket statements.

#30 by ahmedmadani
Did you read the sports column on 17th January? Dude cricket is just an interesting game. Let it remain so.

Dear Pakistani Friends:

I just saw Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz`s interview with Charlie Rose. This was a 45 minute interview, and frankly I am awed by this PM.

I already feel so proud of our PM`s eloquence, his soft spokenness, his depth of world knowledge, his vocabulary, his choice of words. He came across as a genuine world leader.

Only, one negative about his TV mannerism, was that his eyes were roaming around a little too much. He was not seeing straight at the interviewer. Shaukat Aziz has lived in the US for along time, he should have known better. May be his promoters will catch, what I have caught, and next time this eye contact avoidance will be reduced.

All in all for those Pakistanis who read this, I have good news for you....One more reason for us to be proud of Pakistan is our Prime Minister.

And, now here is my prediction: he may be chosen to be the next President of Pakistan, i.e. if Musharaff wants to remain the Chief of Army Staff.

Any guesses?

Rubbish from the majority always is to have a merit based system.

Minorities must always be protected and must be given special rights and privileges.

Look at in Pakistan. Muslim majorities (primarily by Jamaat-e-Islami) are screaming the loudest for meritocratic educational system. Whereas almost all higher education system in Karachi was started by Hindus and Parsis and Christians, but the rogueness in the muslim majorities gradually took it over.

Another look at the US educational system. Minorities do have special bonus points in most higher educational institutions. Only the supreme white establishment in the US (read the Southern Baptist) are advocating meritocracy under the guise of equal playing field for all. Yet, when the Chinese took over almost the whole of Harvard, they wanted some white students to be enrolled.

If minorities have established their own higher educational institutions, the majorities do not have a right to take it over. EVER.

This is the essence of democracy. This is the essence of human rights.

author says: ````The judgment has sent shock waves in the Indian Muslim community. It coincides with the cold waves sweeping the country.````

That is BS. It may have caused some angst to a minority segment of Muslims from a particular part of a region in India, known more their wish to prolong the feudal background than anything else.

It doesn`t matter to anybody else, Muslims or otherwise, Indians all.

#57 we are talking about it because its aligarh MUSLIM uni.

It’s really sad that people have to talk about one pretty unknown school in a country of over a Billion. I mean who gives a stuff?

#52 RANJIT

I feel it is extremely difficult to make Muslims, I mean general Muslims, believe that being somewhat modern can be good for them and for the future of their children. This feeling can only be imbibed on them by Muslim Upper Class.

Typically, Muslim Upper Class is divided into two segments--one, those who are Modern and westernised and the second, who are governing their religous institutions i.e. Muslim Clergy. A common Muslim is more near to the clergy than he is to the Modern Muslim.

Now,clergy will be last one to preach modernism because, otherwise it will be digging its own grave. If you force something on common muslims, the clergy will oppose it tooth and nail and no democratic setup would like to get involved in the tussle.

So overall, its a long tunnel with no end at sight at present. It will be only when ,when the leading Muslim Nations particularly Arabia, Iran and Turkey undergo massive reforms.

Zafar-ji,

I really dont know much about this AMU stuff to be able to comment.

But I do have some questions:

(1) Do you know of any muslim organizations providing tuition/training to poor kids
who are completing high school?

(2) Any organizations providing tuition/training for kids to take the JEE or other national
exams?

(3) Any organizations working with young children focussed on science/math/english?

If so, please post their URLs or address here.

- prateek

#41 by ranjit on January 14, 2006 10:31pm PT

Are there any hindus who actually want to attend AMU? For what? Can they get a job afterwards?

---

Rnajit sb.,

Moi.....and a number of my friends from Aligarh who passed out from AMU....some of them are in the US, a couple in Dubai.....they were mainly in Medical or engineering. I think they are all gainfully employed ;)

Regards,

harimou#50

Of course! How could I forget Osmania? Thanks for the correction [but I do not think that it had Muslim or Islamia in its name].

Re:bolta_aina#51

For some reason, muslims all over the world are simply incapable of social reform. We have seen the massive reform in hindu society which happened in the past two centuries from Raja Ram Mohan Roy onwards. This has laid the foundation for hindus to aggressively pursue modernity and enjoy success. Where is such a reform movement among muslims? Where is the push to go for higher education, getting rid of regressive practices like polygamy, triple talaq etc? Instead muslims seem to enjoy moving backwards in time towards the 7th century.

In such circumstances, we cannot sit by and wait for muslims to catch up with the mainstream on their own. It will never happen that way and the consequences will be scary. If France and England are suffering from problems with their muslim population, can you imagine what will happen when India`s economy truly takes off and the hindu/musim dispartities become exponentially huge? Thats why I am in favor of aggressive government action in the education sector to forcibly drag in the muslim community into the 21st century.

#48 RANJIT


A minority community can retreat into a ghetto mindset when it feels that it is not a part of the national mainstream.

Some days back, I engaged a carpenter for reparing of some wood-work in my house. He was a muslim and worked for three-four days. He was a hard-working fellow and never used to create fuss. He used to bring his 8-10 year old son for assistance.

One day I decided to talk to him to what he feels like. I invited him and his son for tea and snacks and just started talking. He told me that he earns Rs.200/- per day and is working for all 30 days in the month. He had six children and ``sab ka guzara ho jata hai jaisey-taisey``

I tested his GK and his knowledge about geography was confined to Arabia, Iran, Iraq only. About Britishers, he knew that they came from Bartania and ruled Hindustan. Where was Britain, he did not know. About India, he had the opinion that Yeh hamara mulk nahi hai. This land belongs to Hindus and he doesnt know how, when and why they have come here? Regarding Pakistan, he was not very enthusiastic only that the muslims there are in majority unlike here,-- musalmaan wehan zyada tadad main hain. So he may be more secure there otherwise it wouldnt make any difference. He did not see a better future for his children only that they will also have to slog him to earn two-flat meals. His children getting good education was out of question. He had better opinion about about Padhey Likhey Hindus than Padhey Likhey Muslims in India. Overall, its was a picture of gloom with no hope for the future.

Now if you look at this man, he first suffers from Isolation from the country and also there is a sense of hopelessness for the future. But he has confidence in Pahdey Likhey Hindus which ,in other words, would mean secular character of the country.

You are correct that the minority community can retreat into ghetto mindset if it feels that it is not a part a not part on national mainstream. If the above person whom I talked is any representative sample, the minority community in India actually feels so.

Ref dost-mittar #28

[Urstruly:
There was only one AMU at the time of the Partition. Now there are at least two others - Jamia Milia University in Delhi and Darul Huda Islamic Academy in Kerala. ]

You know, you Punjabis can`t see south of the Vindhysas for some reason.

Osmania University was established in Hyderabad (Deccan) in 1908 with instruction in Urdu.

Ref ranjit #48

[...As you know muslims have been disadvantaged by the migration of their elite to Pakistan...]

If folks like Mullah32 are the ``Muslim elite`` you are talking about, there is absolutely NO hope for Indian Muslims.

Re:anil#47

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I feel that it is in India`s best interests to take special steps to strongly promote the integration of the muslim community into the education system. As you know muslims have been disadvantaged by the migration of their elite to Pakistan and their relatively backward state in India both economically and socially. A minority community can retreat into a ghetto mindset when it feels that it is not a part of the national mainstream. An example of that is the preference for madrassa education which is more in the comfort zone of muslims, although it delivers nothing to the students.

From a national perspective, having 120 million people in a backward mode is a huge waste of human resources and a handicap towards our goal of economic advancement. If you factor in the potential of jihadi activities propagated by our unfriendly neighbors, you have potentially a very volatile mix that can explode in our faces. In the extreme case, we see such situations developing in Europe where the majority/minority gap is humungous leading to major social unstability.

I would like the government to invest in massive funding of primary and secondary education for muslims. Government schools can be opened and funded that provide free education to each and every muslim kid and makes it mandatory for them to attend school. These would be in addition to existing government schools with focused funding to pull in muslims students away from madrassahs and acquire secular education. I would also like to see scholarships setup for smart muslim kids from poor families who finish school and are likey to attend college. This will accelerate their integration into the middle class. Vocational training programs can be setup for the others so that they can have employable skills. All in all, we need a concerted focus from the government on education of the muslim community so that they can become a part and parcel of the mainstream. Beyond this, I definitely support a full and fair meritocracy for professional education and employment but these steps will give the muslim community a chance to pull themselves by the bootstraps and participate in the Indian juggernaut.

Religious bias, in symbols, in courses, and among faculty, needs to be removed from college level educations in India in symbol. There can be only zero tolerance for religious bias. Therefore, ``Hindu`` from Banares Hindu University and ``Muslim`` from Aligarh Muslim University should be dropped. Such differentiations are unnecessary in modern India. Bollywood and Cricket team have a fair representation of region and religious communities. No one says Bollywood Hindu Industry, Bollywood Muslim Industry etc. Some people may like Shah Rukh Khan for being a muslim, while most may like him for his acting or other personal reasons. The same goes for the Cricket team too. The days of Hindu Gymkhana and Muslim Gymkhana went long ago with the partition.

No one can say ``Hindu Pani`` or ``Muslim Pani`` today, and get away with it. Likewise Education must be made as one of the fundamental rights granted to of every Indian citizen. This should be enshrined in the constitution of India through a suitable amendment. Education in modern India is as important to live as water is, and is available as easily as the water. This needs to be the message delivered to each Indian citizen.

Transparency comes when hundreds of millions are watching, and have access to media. ``Sa Re Ga Ma Pa`` is an example of a meritocracy in private set up. There may be biases, but converting a bias into blatant discrimination would be difficult in the public glare.

The primary and secondary education initiative are entrusted in the hands of local government and communities. These can be strengthened to reflect improtance of eductation.

The college level education can only promote meritocracy. Anyone who deserves it, and wants it, must not be denied college education. Merit based admission process must be religion blind. The colleges can guarantee admission to top ten percent of the higher secondary graduating class in their neighborhood, and be sensitive to the local social and economic environment. In the absence of, or limited campus housing the colleges tend to serve the local communities. Regional and national level colleges need to have different charter.

The higher secondary schools can cater to local communities special needs, as they are community based. In case, a community makes their higher secondary schools courses overly out of main stream, then they must be held accountable if their students cannot get into regional and national level colleges. All local, regional and national level colleges, like IITs, should be positioned as center of excellence in the neighborhood, region, or at national level. The schools which feed college education have been balanced and take care of the special social and economic needs to the local communities, the college education will cater to local, regional and national needs for growth, and not religion. A community can have a religious seminary to cater local needs, but that is another subject altogether.

Anil Kapuria

Dear Farzana -- why don`t you get an article on Indo-Pak (Hindutva vs Jihadi) cricket for these gentlemen to play somewhere else -- instead of playing on this AMU campus......:)

#42 Mr. Raqnjit singh...... you have some point. I made my daughters to go for earl education. One studied maths, one mechanical engg and youngest made better she got in civil engg and became engineer. She went to usa and got assitantship ( for good marks and helping teacher in correcting exams home work etc), she used to get unbelievable money ($7000/per year ie 420,000 Rupees/ year). She married foreigner in America but I have forgiven her.

It very disturbing and sad the indian cricket team got lucky break. I think better will be to take one extra day to play and complete game as lots of people have paid money to see ``express running wild and taking care of wild indians like american cowboys``. Only good thing is time will be saved and wasteful holiday of victory will not be celebrated as national holiday. It looks childish when supreme leadership give holiday when we win aginst India, how it helps for Battle of Kashmir is question. Second test will be good as outraged IRP team will take on india and little antic of Dravid and virender will be put to end. Watch Pindi Express is raging hot and fast touching 0ver 100 mph, both can not play good at that speed. Problem is pitch no good, its batters dream, need to put lots of grass and IRPian bowlers can make magic. We need fast pitches to help P.Express. This useless match and Indians have escaped due to nature`s help.

Re:ahmedmadani

You wrote.``Education is overemphasized in India they should look more in business in making money. May be its has become prerequisite to get husband or wife in India, Pathetic situation I guess. There are no jobs and people are fighting to waste their youthful years.``

Madaniji, now you have said something that is both against hinduism and islam. Hindus believe in ``Vidvan Sarvasyapujyate`` i.e. a scholar is respected by everyone. Islam says go to China to get knowledge. Aapne to bilkul jahilon wali baat kah di ki education is not important - your own daughter is studying engineering.

Also, there are huge number of jobs in India. In fact, more jobs than qualified candidates to fill them. If there were good relations with Pakistan, some of your unemployed could find work in India. Khair, jaise aap logon ki marzi!!

Nature is giving disadvantage to Pakistan. Yesterday as Pindi express was getting in action to demolish India visibility made problem and India got chance to escape onslaught of raging bowling and express had started hitting record speeds. To day same visibility reduced play stopped. Is this conspiracy ( bribing by indians?) when Pakistanis in less lightb were whipping Harbhagan, Kumble, Agarkar, Ganguli, pathan , tendulkor, yuvraj ( oh they whipped all) they never complained to stop match. But indians just want to avoid play complain of less light. Again they are getting good chance as at 132 no loss, Dravid and Sehwag can take nap and get ready to bat, is this just ? Its not but just now nature is against us and trying to save India.
Mr. Shridhar,Ms.Sandhu you comments are not appreciated by me at all. I do not read them sorry.

Are there any hindus who actually want to attend AMU? For what? Can they get a job afterwards?

The general problem with all the Muslims, including, Indian Muslims, is that they see the world through the periscope of Arabia and the Middle-east. The rest of the world, its culture, its thought process, history etc. does not exists from them. What is required for the benefit for all the Muslims is that they are taken out of their this Arabian mindset.

The institutions like AMU in fact promote this kind of isolation amongst the Muslims. In case, some kind of reservations is indeed required by Muslims in professional courses like Engineering and Medicine, then instead of confining it to just one institution and labelling it with ``Minority`` status, it would be much wiser to distribute the seats of this one institution to other centers.

The revoking of Minority status of AMU by the HC is a step in the right direction.

# 38,
LOL, mad ani, is clearly schizophrenic, he is hallucinating most of the times.

re:#36 by ahmedmadani
Ahmed ``mad``ani,
I think u should not worry too much about cricket. That can cause you more headaches and make your ``schizophrenia`` worse.
Cricket is the only thing where Pakis come together. In everything else, they seem to be fighting each other. It is also the only thing where Pakis have a chance to beat the Indians.
BTW, what is your ``zaat``, Mr ``Mad``ani? Perhaps you are simply a ``badzaat``.
Sridhar

Indian cricket needs reservations. I am told Mr. Ganguli ( Bengali brahmin),Kumble, Dravid ( Madrasi brahmins), Agarkar and Tendulkar ( marathi brahmins) are all bhats. This is too much almost 50% seats on team of brahmins. While brahmin numbers are less than 3% and falling fast as they breed less compared to others but seat of 50%. Brahmin politicians do that trick. Communist bengal Chief minister is brahmin so he plays politics and gets Ganguli in team, Dravid and kumble full backing from madrasi chief minister lady and sharad pawar marathi brahmin so Tendular and Agarkar get definite seat. This is reservation in reserve.
While low paying jobs all reserved for backward people, when I asked fellow traveller why all airhostess on indian airlines ugly.( I had visited few years back).
Anyway that ganguli is easy target for Pindi express, he took good catch yesterday. Our captain is doing harm to team by not giving more time to Pindi express. Express is like big jumbo jet it takes time to control so has to have run. He was about to get deadly and fast but they changed balling at wrong time, express need time to fine tune then its bulldozer machine will bury indians.
Education is overemphasized in India they should look more in business in making money. May be its has become prerequisite to get husband or wife in India, Pathetic situation I guess. There are no jobs and people are fighting to waste their youthful years.

Indian cricket needs reservations. I am told Mr. Ganguli ( Bengali brahmin),Kumble, Dravid ( Madrasi brahmins), Agarkar and Tendulkar ( marathi brahmins) are all bhats. This is too much almost 50% seats on team of brahmins. While brahmin numbers are less than 3% and falling fast as they breed less compared to others but seat of 50%. Brahmin politicians do that trick. Communist bengal Chief minister is brahmin so he plays politics and gets Ganguli in team, Dravid and kumble full backing from madrasi chief minister lady and sharad pawar marathi brahmin so Tendular and Agarkar get definite seat. This is reservation in reserve.
While low paying jobs all reserved for backward people, when I asked fellow traveller why all airhostess on indian airlines ugly.( I had visited few years back).
Anyway that ganguli is easy target for Pindi express, he took good catch yesterday. Our captain is doing harm to team by not giving more time to Pindi express. Express is like big jumbo jet it takes time to control so has to have run. He was about to get deadly and fast but they changed balling at wrong time, express need time to fine tune then its bulldozer machine will bury indians.
Education is overemphasized in India they should look more in business in making money. May be its has become prerequisite to get husband or wife in India, Pathetic situation I guess. There are no jobs and people are fighting to waste their youthful years.

i think some of us are stuck in the past. the modern education is no more imparted by AMU..the new schools are jamia millia, hamdard in dilli, ajuman-e-islam, saboo siddik and rizvi college in bombay, andhra muslim college and several others in hydrabad etc. the AMU belongs to the past.

P.S:
Just to keep things in perspective, I have been on record that some backward muslim communities (in other words, castes) should be included in the reserved quota for backward castes.

umbertoeco#32,31:

Are you sure you want Singapore to be a model for India?

At its core is not affirmative action but a society which gives equal opportunities to all and strictly controls any divisive tendencies while allowing retention of individual identitis. Muslims in India under this model will certainly get the full protection from the police and state which they do not get in India at the moment.

Singapore tightly controls the activities of its Muslim community through its Islamic Religious Council. The Council decides the Madrassa teaching, controls masjid funds and even approves sermons to be delivered during Jumma prayers to ensure that they do not contain anything against any other religious community. Muslim girls in public schools cannot wear hijab. Singapore ordered all Madrassas to bring their teachings of English, Mathemeatics and Science at par with public schools or lose recognition. Recently, it has asked all Madrassa teachers to go through govt. approved training to ensure that they teach only moderate Islam. If this system was to be introduced in India, the Wahabi-type Islam learnt at Darul Uloom at Deoband and taught at Madrassas would be a thing of the past.

BTW, any school or college whose students or faculty cheered against Singapore would certainly face the wrath of the state at no time at all. I do not know of the current situation but when Singapore`s relations with Maylaysia were strained, Lee Kuan Yieu refused to have Muslim pilots in the Air Force. When the Muslims protested, he replied that he wanted to spare them the agony of firing over their fellow Muslims if there was a fight with Malaysia.

If you wanted to bring the Singapore model to India, contact your local BJP candidate because the Congress or Lalo Yadav or certainly not going to support you.

#6

Hi Vikas,

Thanks for sharing your views with us here.

I would like to take up the ghettoisation comment. I don`t think ghettoisation is a one way process. It is reflection of the state of trust and bomhomie between the two communities.

Singapore`s case is examplary as here the govt. ensures that in every HDB block, all communities have adequate representation. I wish the Indian govt. could follow the example set by a small country like Singapore.

Thanks

#3

Thanks for your views.

You say: ``As an alig, I do think that AMU has a special status, including minority status.``

You think? Even after reading the article, you think? It is the minority status that has been taken away.

As of the reservations, I respect your view. Fifty years of non-affirmative action has done wonders for the Indian Muslims!

This very good article but at this time cricket is important.
India is finished. Pindi express will make sacrafice of indian team. They can not play expess at 160 Km/Hour.

[``gujju..i`m serious...you want good recommendations when you apply to US colleges, don`t you?``]

WTF !! Sue me for being ignorant....but I thought a decent rank at GRE/GMAT was good enough....

The AMU cannot directly discriminate in favour of Muslim students but it can and does so indirectly. This is through its Internal Student Quota for admissions. This quota which roughly fills half of its admissions applies to students who have gone to a Higher Secondary School run by the AMU. Most of the students at this school are Muslims and almost all of those who get admission to the University through this process are Muslims. I do not think that this Interanl Quota system is under any threat. And if it is not, AMU will continue to have Muslim demographics.
The basic problem in India is the poor quality of Madrassa education which is even worse than that provided by government schools. From what I have read, the quality is uneven and some of the Madrassas (in Bihar?) are good enough that many Hindus send their children to them. Someone should try to hold the successful ones as models for others.


Urstruly:
There was only one AMU at the time of the Partition. Now there are at least two others - Jamia Milia University in Delhi and Darul Huda Islamic Academy in Kerala.

I don`t get what Pakistan`s inevitability has to do with anything?

I agree with Amrita and Nasah and avkrishna.

I still stand against any sort of preferential treatment at the Secondary Education or Professional level for anyone.

However, primary education MUST be available to ALL at little to no cost to level the playing field for the future.

This is great. About time we also put a stop to reservations for other religious groups.

Or extend reservations to Govt. funded universities exclusive to Hindus.

Of course, if they are privately funded, then the Govt. has no business interfering.

Thanks,

Urstruly #20

`` THE REASON PAKISTAN WAS INEVITABLE ``

Pakistani Muslims have not done any better. They are still collecting rent from their gora masters.

just kidding folks -- I agree with Faruk, Dost mitter ji and Amrita -- it may be unnecessary to grant a minority status to AMU.....

Nasah sirji

if AMU anyways was full of well of folks in professional courses, why the need for reservation for muslims? they can compete with others anyways.

if anything, the need is for young and bright of muslim community to mix with their fellow indians, not ghettoization, else urstruly eagerly awaits them ;-)

20/urstruly

Of course..... But then why did you leave 120 millions of your brothers behind with hinud kafirs ? you knew this is going to happen - didn`t you?

#16 by Indian007 on January 13, 2006 11:09am PT

gujju..i`m serious...you want good recommendations when you apply to US colleges, don`t you?

THE REASON PAKISTAN WAS INEVITABLE

17/nasah
[....Aligarh Muslim university should be exclusively for the educational and manner uplift of the AVERAGE backward Muslims -- and the Benaras Hindu University exclusively for the AVERAGE backward Hindu students...... ]

what`s this - TNT with a makeover?... :)

um, i dont exactly understand what the point is here. mainly because i dont understand why the lack of minority status would immediately mean a flood of non muslim students. as far as i am aware [my father belongs to the batch of 1957] Aligarh Muslim University has always had more muslim students not because of any minority status but because more muslims apply there than anywhere else. the kids of my dad`s friends from college went to amu when the time came and so did most of the kids of the others that he has kept in touch with. in the years since its establishment, it has become a family tradition for many families. also, this idea of amu as an institution made up of the poor masses is slighty exxagerated imo - lots of the kids come from very well off families. and not a few claim descent from royal blood.

and as for the others claiming amu as the bastion of pro-pakistani traitors, could your ignorance be any more evident? the amu happens to have contributed immensely to india`s struggle for independence, its culture and arts and has any number of its alumni in civil service. one of its vice chancellors went on to become the president of india.

sir syed`s views and the link to allama iqbal does exist [if im not mistaken, iqbal wrote the college anthem] but if we are to go on an excavation expedition into the histories of institutions, amu will not be the only one with famous skeletons in its past.

the best and brightest of the Muslim community could go anywhere...

AMU should not be for ``the Best and the Brightest`` of the Muslims -- it should be for the average backward Muslim students -- who in large numbers are in suspended animation between having no education or going to the madrasas -- especially for those who have to be weaned from those good-for-nothing madarasa and other parochial schools -- to get a reasonablely well liberal arts, technological and professional -- ie NON PAROCHIAL education.....

In my view the Aligarh Muslim university should be exclusively for the educational and manner uplift of the AVERAGE backward Muslims -- and the Benaras Hindu University exclusively for the AVERAGE backward Hindu students......

In a billion population of India there are more average students than the best and the brightest -- where are the average ones going.....

and BTW -- both should be funded 1000% by the cenrtral government......:)

try mohammed_akhtar_india@yahoo.com

haha

Re nash#4,12
The reservation at AMU was introduced by Arjun Singh to gain Muslim votes. It is an old political trick, it alienates the Hindus and does not do anything for Muslims. The number of Muslim students was more than 50% to begin with, what will the reservation achieve? If by virtue of the congress machinations the number of non Muslims is reduced, it will hurt the instructions reputation. The caliber of the graduates of this university will always be in question.


Regards,

Faruk

gujju/indian007: what`s your e-mail address...I need a trace run from India to a server here..

I consider affirmative action in education to be good social policy but ruinous as politics. This appears to be one of those cases- Arjun Singh overreached himself and ruined whatever legal knife-edge AMU had been traversing between being a minority institution and not being a minority institution.

``
``.....the goddam legalistic Indians.....``

...And thank God for that, because without the law, no one, esp. minorities, have any protection in India.:-) ``(DM)

I know -- dost miitre ji.....I know....and thank God for that.....:) .....I know it`s a double edged sword that cuts sharper on the minority side...... and thank God for that.

I know in legalistic India -- minus the goddam -- any 100% government funded institution doesn`t belong to 18% minority....goes to 80% folks....how naturally fair!

now this is what is called in vernacular -- panchon angulian ghee mein and sur karhai mein for the backward majority.....translation: the head I win and the tail u lose.....a permanent affirmative action for the poor opressed majority.......:)

Ideally, AMU, after Partition, should have been packed off to Pakistan, and the building given away to any Hindu, Sikh or Jain college or university uprooted from West Punjab and Sindh on quid pro quo basis. Thanks to our secular establishment, AMU did not exhaust itself in the making of Pakistan. ``The university (AMU) tarana (song) does not contain a single word in praise of India but it glorifies such things as the evenings of Egypt and the mornings of Shiraj. The university flag has greater resemblance with the flags of Muslim countries, with moon and palm tree stamped on it, than with that of India.`` (Aligarh Muslim University and Muslim Politics by Dr SS Gupta, 1992, p 79) Syed Ahmed Khan, according to MJ Akbar, ``Consciously or unconsciously, created the groundwork for community-based politics, with all its attendant consequences.

Full text of the article:

AMU`s alienation is historical

Balbir K Punj


On January 5, a two-judge division bench of Allahabad High Court ruled that Aligarh Muslim University is not a minority institution. Chief Justice AN Ray and Justice Ashok Bhushan quashed the review petition filed by the UPA Government and AMU, challenging an earlier single-judge verdict of same purport. On October 4, 2005, Justice Arun Tandon had observed that AMU was not a minority institution and thus AMU Amendment Act, 1981, enacted by the Indira Gandhi Government, was `unconstitutional`.


The controversy over the minority status of AMU was sparked off by HRD Ministry`s notification of February 25, 2005, to reserve 50 per cent seats for Muslims in post-graduate courses.



The UPA Government`s move, clearly aimed at courting Muslim votes, had a prequel in Ms Sonia Gandhi`s visit to AMU on December 14, 2003. Addressing a seminar on the subject ``Jawaharlal Nehru and Nationalism``, she alleged that the NDA Government was ``targeting minorities, distorting history and subverting institutions of excellence.`` She aptly described AMU as a historic institution and ironically called upon ``all secular and progressive forces`` to join hands, to defeat those who ``subvert our constitutional values behind a reformist veneer.``



The AMU is indeed a ``historical institution`` but this history makes the Congress ,go into a denial mode. ``The official history of the Congress``, informs historian RC Majumdar, ``denies that the Muslims were opposed to the Congress.`` It is obvious that Congress`s present attitude towards this `historic institution` will prove the maxim, ``Those who don`t learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat it.``



Aligarh Muslim University, established as Mohammedan Anglo-Oriental College (MAOC) by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan in 1875, was never merely an academic institution. It was a characteristic politico-intellectual movement of the Muslim community in the aftermath of the 1857 uprising that lasted till partition of India and continued thereafter. Moreover, it was the epicentre of the ideology of Muslim separatism and hatred was nurtured with active support from the British under the policy of `divide and rule`.



The protracted disintegration of the Mughal Empire (1707-1857) and the advent of the British was perceived by Muslims not merely as a political but also a religious and civilisational problem. One of its fallouts was the Wahabi Movement inspired by Shah Waliullah (1703-1762), who invited Ahmed Shah Abdali to invade India in 1761 to restore Islamic rule. Waliullah`s son Shah Abdel Aziz (1746-1823) declared that India had ceased to be a Dar-ul-Islam (House of Islam) and become Dar-ul-Harb (House of War).



Thus it was incumbent upon Muslims of India to either vanquish the British, Sikhs and Marathas in war or migrate (Hizrat) to lands where Islamic rule prevailed. But 1857 proved the futility of armed confrontation with the British. Those who remained loyal to Wahabism even after the catastrophic experiences of 1857 like Muhammad Qasim Nanauti and Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, set up the Islamic Madarsa (Dar-ul-Uloom) in Deoband in 1867. They responded to British takeover of India by cocooning themselves from the rest of the world.



Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who had won the British confidence because of the help he rendered to the British during the 1857 uprising, started working towards bringing about a division between Hindus and Muslims. Simultaneously, he sought to identify Muslim interests with that of the British Empire in India. He advocated that Muslims gain mastery over symbols of modernism like the English language, science and technology.



But while talking of modernising the orthodox Muslim society, Sir Syed did not seek to align Muslims on the basis of universal principles of peaceful co-existence, tolerance or democracy. He successfully persuaded the community to look at the Empire as their patron and Hindus as a looming threat to their existence. He shrewdly reversed the pre-1857 hostile relationship between Muslims and British and brought them together against the Hindus. His action bespoke of the American maxim, `If you can`t beat them, join them`.



Sir Syed came up with a theological explanation to justify this alliance with the British. He said that British (Christians), like Muslims, were `People of the Book`, whereas Hindus were infidels. He ran a tirade against nascent the Congress by dubbing it a ``Hindu organisation`` that Muslims must eschew. He made British and Muslims convenient allies and succeeded in alienating the latter from rest of the country.



First through the `United Indian Patriotic Association` (established in 1888), and later through The `Muhammadan Anglo-Oriental Defence Association of Upper India` (established in 1893), Sir Syed and his ilk continued to oppose the Congress and `strengthen British rule in India`. His influence on Muslim was so deep that very few from the community joined the Congress in the freedom movement. Not a single Muslim League member ever went to jail. When Jinnah dubbed the `Congress, a Hindu party in 1940s, and saw Hindus and Muslims as two different nations he was being less than original. The founder of Aligarh College had said that long ago.



``Is it possible``, he said in his speech titled One Country, Two Nations delivered at Meerut on March 16, 1888, ``that under these circumstances two nations - the Mohammedans and the Hindus - could sit on the same throne and remain equal in power? Most certainly not. It is necessary that one of them should conquer the other. To hope that both could remain equal is to desire the impossible and the inconceivable.



At the same, time you must remember that although the number of Mohammedans is less than that of the Hindus, and although they contain far fewer people who have received a higher English education, yet they must not be considered insignificant or weak. Probably they would by themselves be enough to maintain their position. But suppose they were not.



Then our Musalman brothers, the Pathans, would come out as a swarm of locusts from their mountain valleys, and make rivers of blood flow from their frontier on the north to the extreme end of Bengal. This thing - who after the departure of the English would be conquerors would rest on God`s will. But until one nation has conquered the other and made it obedient, peace cannot reign in the land.`` (100 Best pre-Independence Speeches 1870-1947, Harper Collins India, 1998, pp 20-21)



``The university (AMU) tarana (song) does not contain a single word in praise of India but it glorifies such things as the evenings of Egypt and the mornings of Shiraj. The university flag has greater resemblance with the flags of Muslim countries, with moon and palm tree stamped on it, than with that of India.`` (Aligarh Muslim University and Muslim Politics by Dr SS Gupta, 1992, p 79) Syed Ahmed Khan, according to MJ Akbar, ``Consciously or unconsciously, created the groundwork for community-based politics, with all its attendant consequences.



It is no surprise that his college at Aligarh became the intellectual cauldron for the ideas which later created Pakistan. He himself articulated the arguments which became constants in discussion about Muslims till 1947.`` (Nehru: The Making of India, Roli Books, p 17)



Ideally, AMU, after Partition, should have been packed off to Pakistan, and the building given away to any Hindu, Sikh or Jain college or university uprooted from West Punjab and Sindh on quid pro quo basis. Thanks to our secular establishment, AMU did not exhaust itself in the making of Pakistan.



Sir Syed Ahmed Khan`s policy `if you can`t beat them, join them` continues to guide Muslims in partitioned India. Like Sir Syed declared British, the earlier adversary for Muslims, as `People of Book` and hence worthy of alliance, Muslims in independent India declared their earlier adversary Congress, as `secularists and worthy of friendship. The objective, in both cases, was to thwart any nationalistic resurgence.

Zafar
I studied in a ``sarkari`` school, and AFAIK, my 12th board exam papers had only a role number field and didn`t have a religion column.
I could also get into an IIT, and there too there was no religion field in entrance exam paper. Recently a rikshaw puller daughter got selected to medical school in Maharashtra. My colleague and room mate in Tata`s graduate engineer hostel was a Christian who graduated from Vellore (not a minotiry college). Another colleague was a muslim girl who graduated from Delhi college of engineering.

Why a ``minority`` institution is necessary to ensure education of minorities? I would understand reservations till 12th grade to ensure that any social hesitation (inherited through parents) in accepting and intermingling with other groups/religions is overcome. Reservations at higher level hinders motivation to excel. Higher education should be based on merit. That is only way to motivate all to learn.

Visit the AMU campus during an India-Pakistan match and observe which side the students are cheering for. Its obvious , isn`t it. And the bloody disgrace is this bunch of anti-nationals are given 100% by the government of India. The honest cow worshipping polytheist hindooo kufr tax payer funds the education of these terrorists , and what does he get in return ? IEDs in his markets , RDX in his kid`s school buses etc.

Another point...

I believer that the courts can declare AMU as a non-minority institution because it is almost 100% funded by the Indian government. I wonder if the same situation would apply to a minority-funded institution.

In all this talk about the minority status, the effect of reservations on AMU has been ignored. If non-muslims are shut-out from competition or severely handicapped in so doing, AMU will lose the best and the brightest from the non-muslim community. Over time, it will lead to a decline in the standards and reputation of the university. If this happens, the best of Muslim students too will begin to shun it, turning the AMU into a Muslim ghetto. I dont see how any well-wisher of the university would want that.

And there was no need to put ``unconstitutuional`` under quotations. If the HC says so, it is unconstitutional unless the SC decides to overturn the decision.


nasah:
``.....the goddam legalistic Indians.....``

...And thank God for that, because without the law, no one, esp. minorities, have any protection in India.:-)

(1) It is true that the muslim leaders have not prepared the majority population for a meritocratic society. There is politics invovled here, you should know having gone to AMU. The Muslim politicians use the Quran and foster ultra-conservative feelings in the Muslim community to win their vote. As a result, the majority of uneducated Muslim community, which have a large presence in U.P. would rather send their children to Mudrasas than to schools. The same politicians will then use these up and comings as a sign that not enough is being done to educate the Muslim community. This then yields its hands to the Indian affirmative action.

(2) This, however, should not serve as any justification for a pro-Muslim affirmative action. Take for example the following situation: you or one of your loved one is on their death-bed needing a doctor. Who would you, you being a Muslim, would rather go to a Muslim who was given the MBBS seat because of being a Muslim or a non-Muslim who was given the seat because of their merit? I certainly would pick a person based on their merits as someone with merits has proof of their ability the other might only have proof of their minority status. This is not to say that people of merit do not claim that minority seat, but such individuals also have well enough merits to compete with the ``Hindus``.

(3) This only goes to justify that affirmative action AT THE SECONDARY EDUCATION LEVEL OR PROFESSIONAL LEVEL is never the best way to promote education. The education must be promoted at the grass-roots level. THIS IS THE TRUE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

(4) The problem is in no way shape or form related to AMU. AMU was never a minority institution like Faruk said.

(5) I standy by Allahabad High Court`s decision.

(6) ``The judgement has sent shock waves....`` You should be a little bit more careful when choosing your words. The ``shock waves`` was nearly a front to the politics of gaining the ``Muslim`` vote. I have witnessed numerous of such ``shock waves`` having lived in Allahabad. Even the smallest change which can be given a negative outlook is done so for the sake of politics. Perhaps we on this web-site should be a bit more discriminative in our discussions.

(7) I hope AMU has a bright future. It has always held its ranks among universities in U.P.

(8) You were also a bit harsh with the ``few singers....`` about Bollywood. Bollywood, if anything, has ample Muslim actors, actresses, singers, composers, and etc. There aren`t just a few but a plethora of Muslim stars. Arguably they are more famous than their Hindu, Sikh, ....etc counterparts.

(9) With this article, I question, how much integration you actually wish for? I was actually in Singapore during the Diwali/Eid time and it was amazing to see both being celebrated back to back in neighborhoods in tranquility. There was integration and respect between the two communities. What you ask for, it seems, is for the Muslim community to rise distinctively as community. To what degree is this communalism, you wish to incite, beneficial or injurious to India`s health is an entirely different issue.

(10) I do not support affirmative action at ANY SECONDARY EDUCATION OR PROFESSIONAL LEVEL. The only way to level the playing field is via primary education which should be available for everyone.

Vikash

...why are indian muslims such whiners??...be it the writer of this article or the editor of this site or the indian muslim representative on chowk salim chauhan...whine... whine... whine...

what is mine is mine and what is yours is also mine because we are the majority -- the tyrany of the majority -- in which the majority should own the minority..

.....the goddam legalistic Indians.....they don`t want anything to belong to the minorities except their, musjids Immambaras and their depressing madarsas.......and then the complain that the backward Muslims are too hooked to their madrassas.....

Zafar sahab,

Here`s the thing:

Considering that the percentage of muslims in non-professional courses has been around 80-85% and that in professional courses (Med, engg, MBA) aroubd 60-70%. So, what then was the need to introduce 50% reservations last year? Shut out non-muslims altogether? But that can`t happen. Also, what were you thinking? That non-muslims who were denied admission won`t approach the courts? Please remeber that the University act of 1981 (that made AMU as an minority institution) has an inherent contradiction:
Section 5 (c) of the AMU (Amendment) Act 1981, empowers the university to ‘‘promote especially the educational and cultural advancement of the Muslims of India.” At the same time, however, section (8) of the same act categorically says that admission to students should be given irrespective of religious considerations.

In light of this, and a previous Supreme court ruling, why inititate such a stupid move?Stupid advisors? Too much reliance on Arjun? Hum Turram Khan hain, sabki haath mein aa jaygi!!!!

As an alig, I do think that AMU has a special status, including minority status. However, reservations on the basis of religion are not a part of the constitution, yet! Naseem Ahmad and Arjun Singh have not done anyone a favor in this matter, least of all AMU and the muslim community.

Regards,

PS: Please leave tongue-in-cheek to Woody Allen.

Zafar,
AMU should not be a minority institution. It wasn’t one earlier but always had a large number of Muslim students. Muslims in this country have to pull their socks up and start competing, reservations have not helped the dalits or the obc’s. Why will it help Muslims. In today’s India there are great opportunities and great challenges. Its up to us to take advantage of these opportunities.

Regards,

Faruk

Zafar,
AMU should not be a minority institution. It wasn’t one earlier but always had a large number of Muslim students. Muslims in this country have to pull their socks up and start competing, reservations have not helped the dalits or the obc’s. Why will it help Muslims. In today’s India there are great opportunities and great challenges. Its up to us to take advantage of these opportunities.

Regards,

Faruk