Sharon’s Legacy

Re:r.a.janjua #73

Your posting once again reveals the complete hollowness of the ummah concept among muslims. It is a total farce. Pakistani muslims and jordanian muslims butchered palestinians. Yet, you have millions of Pakistanis who have wet dreams about the ummah every day.

re: 72

thanks for the link fuzair - my own understanding had been the same as described by col. de atkine - the then maj. gen. zia-ul-haq took over the command of a jordanian division on his own initiative and played a decisive role in crushing the uprising - that in itself is quite remarkable since it was not even remotely a part of his job description.

many have puzzled over why bhutto picked zia over some very fine and more qualified generals - the usual explantion is that zia used to act like a lapdog in front of him and bhutto had too much of an ego - i am not so sure about this explanation - someone mentioned this to me a long time back, that when maj. gen. zia-ul-haq took that action against the palestinians, he was duly noted by a lot of important people - here was a man with no scruples and ruthless enough to do anything for his ambitions - people like that can be very useful - but all that is ofcourse just speculation.

Why does Chowk allow this ``analyst`` to waste its resources? The level of ``analysis`` here is only slightly less asinine than ``the Jews planned 9-11 to discredit Muslims.``


R.A.Janjua

Zia`s role in Black September is still murky. I had thought that he was instrumental in the planning for Black September but Col. De Atkine, who was a US military attache in Jordan in 1970 (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue4/jv6n4a2.html), says that Zia took command of a Jordanian division when its GOC deserted his post--he was married to a Palestinian. Zia then became the de facto GOC of the Jordanian 2nd Infantry Division during ``Black September.``

Incidentally, de Atkine completely discounts the stories of mass killings and slaugter of the Palestinians carried out by the Jordanian Army. I think that if Black September had not been carried out, Jordan now (certainly no paradise) would be as dysfunctional as Arafat`s corruption and machinations had made the Palestinian Authority.

#69 noisy israeli democracy somehow seems to have turned up a long list of chiefs who served their country well. this if nothing else is a great advertizement for democracy.

#69 Good point on ``Black September`` (er....I mean amir-ul-momineen) Zia.

``Sharon has been lauded and eulogized by his fawning fans—including a doting George W. Bush—as an indomitable ‘warrior’ and ‘courageous’ soldier.``

he was an ``indomitable ‘warrior’ and ‘courageous’ soldier.`` you may not like his arrogant swagger or his crude, bullying manner but accept the fact that no arab leader in recent history can even close to him. which is sad, since for israelis he does not count as one of their great leaders. there is not a single arab leader who has served his country and people like sharon has his motherland. these baighairat arabs need people like sharon to give them the danda they need.

sabra and shatilla are mentioned all the time, but face the truth, your own amir-ul-momineen (zia-ul-haq) killed more palestinians during the black september uprising than the israelis have since 1947. the israelis to their credit at least had an inquiry against sharon and held him responsible. zia-ul-haq on the other hand was awarded the highest jordanian honor for butchering thousands of palestinians and the saudi pigs used to open the doors of the ka`ba for him every chance they got.

now I don`t think that Reverend Nasah is going to aplogize to Omri beta....

kee meray qatle kay baad usne jafa say toba -- after devastating the Paslestinian land and humiliating and tearing apart the Palestinian psyche to smitherines -- the man would have liked to have died as the peace maker -- perhaps he finally became aware of that cruel HOLE in his HEART...

but guess Israeli God wanted him to continue to pillage, destroy and massacre the occupied men women and children of Palestine.......hence He turned the ferocious Lion into a harmless vegetable overnight -- after warning him first...

.......another take from Reverend Nasah.

jang
[...What did pakistan state do for them[palestinians] except bomb them? ...]

Good question... any answers from the paki brigrade here? ..... not that I really care much on what happens to the palis and arabs.... just curious!!

There used to be a bunch of palis infesting my college [REC] every year - few of them ever complete the course in time [ 4 years]..... most of them just stay on for 8 years and get an NFTE [not fit for technical education] certificate.... a veritable bunch of l00sers..... but they all used to have a lot of money.....

maulana urstruly(or S Mohammad of Dearborn, MI..sadeq?)..you`ll be glad to know that your tax $$ are being put to good use..to kill terrorists where the terrorists are so we don`t have to fight them here..

US missiles blamed for 18 deaths on Pakistan border

By Zeeshan Haider

ISLAMABAD, Jan 13 (Reuters) - A Pakistani security official and residents of a border region said U.S. aircraft from Afghanistan killed 18 people, including women and children, when they fired missiles at pro-Taliban Islamists early on Friday. Pakistani military spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan said up to 14 people had been killed in several blasts in the Bajaur tribal region but said he did not know the cause.

The blasts came days after Pakistan, a key ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism, lodged a strong protest with U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan, saying cross-border firing in the nearby Waziristan area last weekend killed eight people.

Residents of Bajaur, opposite Afghanistan`s insurgent-troubled Kunar province, said the explosions were caused by firing from unidentified aircraft on the village of Damadola at about 3 a.m. (2200 GMT Thursday).

One day of Indian common sense cooperation with Israeli`s does more to enhance safety and security for common Indians than a decade of kissing-hugging of the Palestinians.

Younger people may not remember but Arafat was always treated like a head of state when he visited Indian. He got a place of prominence at NAM meetings and there was alwyas a lot of hugging-shugging and declaration of mutual love and affection between Arafat and Indira G*ndhi.

All this when the western world considered Arafat a terrorist.

What did India get out of it: Zilch, Nada

(btw: why is G*ndhi an objectionable word?)

indian state support for palestinian people has been concrete, palestinians were offered scholarships in every acedemic inst. including the IITs. What did pakistan state do for them except bomb them?

#33 Kulharee,

This article is about Sharon and Palestinians (not necessarily Muslims). My comment was on `war crimes`, something where a broad consensus is possible.

As far as Tikka Khan, Zia, Rajiv Gandhi, IGP Gill etc. are concerned, I am sure we will have more to say about them over time here in chowk. I remember talking about Modi in some other board.

#36 kaal.

I agree with you in general. However, I think many Indians and Pakistanis are making their decisions based on scarce or one sided information. Think of it for a moment...the TV picture of a Palestinian is either a wailing mother or a gun weilding gentleman with a hood. A clear association is then induced on people who do not have time to reflect: Palestinian is equivalent to a terrorist. My reading of history and my interaction with both Israelis and Palestinians do not allow me to make that association. My personal experience induces a feeling of awe when I see a young Palestinian throwing a stone at an Israeli tank. I cannot forget the face of the father sheilding his child from Israeli army bullets, both dying in the process. I am amazed at the life of a very prominent academic in my field of work. I cannot associate with the bombastic Hamas. I associate with Israelis refusing to join the army, or Israeli armymen refusing to bulldoze houses in Gaza. I associate with my Israeli colleagues, with pro or anti Sharon stands, with whom I can have a dialogue and who do not distort or colour the past based on their respective points of view. I believe that it is this last fact which will bring about a solution to the conflict much before `we` have peace in Kashmir.

#50
There is no point in asking the weakminded to ponder whether my listing anti-Muslim prejudice necessarily implies that I subscribe to such prejudice.

And no it has nothing to do with the color of Arab skin(unlike the case in Pakistan). Indians are primarily anti-colonial in impulse and suspicious of violations of sovereignty. Iraq`s sovereignty has been gratituously violated and Indians are strongly opposed to that across religious lines. The Palestinians still get Indian sympathy for similar reasons.

But as distinct from people being dispossessed and demanding their rights are people self-professedly pursing `Islamic` causes, who have begun to be associated with a certain obduracy with or without good reason. One simple example was that Hindu organizations involved in Ram temple had, in negotiations prior to the demolition offered to shift the Babri Masjid brick by brick and build it up a few miles away. Muslim organizations involved in those negotiations refused. Subsequently the situation went from being negotiable to being one of battling for supremacy -in other words, totally intractable for any multi-religious society. A prolonged exposure to Pakistani jihad has also given Indians a taste of its ideology of total victory at any cost. So now when those self-professedly espousing an `Islamic` cause say they are looking for ``compromise``, they have little public credibility.

But I believe the Arabs themselves now see the Palestinian issue in less black and white terms than Pakistanis do.

#49, Burpy Under {``sadna, YLH agreed with something you said. Break out the champagne girl :)))

Burpy Under,
It`s not nice to abuse Sadna like that. You are being condescending and sexually harassing when you refer to her as a ``champagne girl.`` Please apologize to the nice lady.