Love Affair

#56 by Mantolives

Yasser, I would request that you turn the discussion away from your favorite pastime of blasting individual personalities and keep it focused on the topic at hand.

I have no doubt that – coming from the land of the purest of the pure – you have nothing but purity at heart and things are nothing other than honky-dory between you and the little lady – and those three empty slots behind her, your full quota allotted as your legitimate claim per your religion (not to mention any temporary slots which can be made available on an as needed basis (a little like virtual memory chunks in computer language) which the Gillster so coyly presented to us) – yes, those slots shall forever stay empty – I have no personal reason to doubt any of those things! (But thou DOES protest too much Manto, so do check out those dormant feelings, just in case – experience shows us that the most “pious” of the lot are the ones that require the most careful scrutiny! One never knows!)

You see Manto, you are the top of the cream – the shiniest of the diamonds – and just as hard as that diamond! The nut that is simply impossible to crack!

The problem is with the REST of the crowds, dear – those little humans!

I know you won’t believe me, it is the most unusual thing, Manto!

My dear, the rest of us are the FALLIBLE type – a word you won’t know anything about – tauba, tauba!

Dear Manto, there is NOBODY like you – except perhaps that Jinnah.

And he is already dead!

BJoker... (is B for bullshit?)

``Legitimate concern`` ?

You have no clue what you are talking about

Read his posts again. He is clearly still obsessed with the co-worker. If you can`t see it- it must be your reading comprehension which you have in the past shown to be quite mediocre... This person is not being honest... consider that he writes ``I hurt my coworker, wife and myself``... coworker is first and foremost... you don`t have to be einestein to see where this dude is going...

He is full of faeces - thats what he is... maybe somebody to ought to adminster salt enemas up his... too bad your bapu is no longer alive...

In my estimate- and this will be confirmed by other responses from the said person- the gentleman was showing off in post 41... Its kinda like his ``been there done that`` kinda stuff... `` I, an oily-haired piece-a-shit immigrant who nobody would give a second look at in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Afghanistan/Timbektu, screwed some quality ass at work and i still gotts my pavitar bharti naari at home who cooks and cleans and then makes herself available while I imagine my coworker who I used to screw`` kind of scene going here...

The way Ranjit has expressed it... to quote:

``#41 by ranjit on March 4, 2006 8:37am PT
Amrita,

This was a great read!! It brought back memories because 3 years back I had a torrid extra-marital affair with a coworker that lasted a year``

should be read: I am SO cool - I have done what you only wrote about.

``I had been married for nearly 10 years, leading the typical New Jersey desi married life and was feeling bored. It started out innocously as lunch outings that ultimately led to her bedroom``

should read : Yeah baby ... Whos yer daddy ... yeah say it baby say it.


``It was very exciting at first since the deception and illicit nature of the activity gives a huge adrenalin rush - almost like a drug. ``

Should read: Yeah and I am kinda cool... druggie but I know the limits yo.


``However, I did have some great moments and your article really jogged my memories. Thanks!!``

Should read: Thanks for remindin` me of the good times...


``I dont know because I had always prided myself as someone who controlled his own destiny. I was always driven to strive for success whether it was at IIT or grad school here. But nevertheless, in spite of all my self-control, I did get carried away and overwhelmed by circumstances``

Should read: Yeah and not only did I screw around... but I am an aggressive go-getter... and I went to IIT and then I went to GRAD school in the US... see how cool I am... and yeah so I deserved to get some ass on the side... why? because I am an aggressive go getter who went to IIT and grad school... and what about my wife? well I brought that little house wife to the US didn`t I? I still deserve my side-ass...


As for his excuse about his son... I won`t buy too much into that... not only is that poor child really unfortunate but I feel for this guy`s wife who is stuck with the a-hole who thinks hez da man because hez from IIT and went to grad school in the US and is aggressive when it comes to his job and that special ass on the side...


--

Ass here is being used the same way as ``donkey``. What an ass - to sleep with a loser like this a-hole.

#53 manto

Dear Yasser, unlike you, I sense no gloating in the individual concerned. Perhaps the discrepancy results from the way YOU choose to see it. In my view, there is more honesty being displayed by the interactor than most individuals on this site dare to – note the highly superficial nature of the interacts that graced this page prior to his original comment!

Your concept of what constitutes “patriarchy” and where the line exists to demark it from legitimate concern for one’s children is indeed unique!

well written amrita. complexities of relationships...reminded me of the movie `ijazat`.

Dear BJoker...

Ranjit is very clearly gloating about his affair... he is proud of it... But then again - a fellow like you might not see it...

In any event his statement that he ``could not stomach his son growing up without his father`` is nothing but the reinforcement of an idiotic notion of self importance which I decipher as patriarchy...

It is clear that this gentleman is obsessed with the ``co-worker`` and is least bothered with his wife...

#51 by Mantolives

Manto,

You clearly have still to learn a lot about human nature, its amazing strengths and its God-given frailties! Everyone has weaknesses - except those with feet of clay - and those are only so because they are inanimate objects.

One of the most courageous attributes that ANYONE could possess is to admit frailties and past mistakes resulting from those frailties in an open manner. The interactor you took to task is not ``proud`` of what happened. In my view, his ability to talk about it in an open forum will help reinforce his resolve and make it highly unlikely that stuff like that will happen again - first-hand experience, sometimes painful first-hand experience, is a better teacher than all the religious books and moral codes could ever hope to accomplish. I am glad he shared it here so it will perhaps help others.

Those mighty palaces are never built on as strong a foundation as one would like to think. For the ultimate foundation - that solid ground on which everything rests - is not man-made. The Man who made it did not consult any construction manuals - He made his own up as He went along - any which way He liked it - and no two foundations are the same - or the world would be extremely lack-lustre.

Yielding to temptations of various kinds is a fundamental weakness we as human beings were saddled with.

The reason Amrita does not chide him for his transgression is simple - she can recognize the fact that basic human limitations exist and NOBODY is immune from it. It does not matter if individuals are beggars or kings - they all got it!

Unless you are a mind-reader, Yasser, you have no way to read anybody`s mind and proclaim what motivated one individual to a specific act. I truly believe Ranjit when he says that there were other aspects to that episode that were the original and primary drivers. There are many ways in which people connect, for the short term or for the long term, and physical intimacy is just one of those ways, and perhaps not even the best of the ways to connect!

When you imply that simple lust alone can move individuals you only reveal your own simplified model in mind - just like the other simplified models you reveal again and again on many other topics - including this wholesale generalization of NY desis in your current post!

PS:

Okay, Aisha - you can stop reading now!

He SAYS he will behave!

Ranjit...

You write:

``After a while, it morphed into a physical affair. It took me a while because it is not easy to take such a huge step when you have a family. Conversely it also became painful to break off later on because I did form a very emotional relationship with her and came close to divorcing my wife. I just could not stomach the thought of my son growing up without his father and that pulled me back.``

I am afraid I am not going to praise your ``candidness`` as eagerly as BJoker...

If this is the reason you continue with your wife... then I am afraid you are lying to yourself and everyone here. The real reason you didn`t leave was because you could not stomach the thought of your wife- pavitar bharti naari I imagine- getting married to someone else and your son calling someone else daddy. Its about control and patriarchy.

Sorry for being harsh... but your entire attitude is quite nonserious and without remorse. It is this kind of trivialisation of the matter which is most disturbing in your discourse. You cheated on your wife. There is NO intellectual plane to it. You did it because you were bored and wanted some action. It just didn`t ``end up`` in her bedroom... you walked there. Having an affair is a conscious decision... and is not excusable under ``sudden provocation``. I am surprised that a sensitive writer like Amrita has not taken you to task for it...

Life is complex but your actions were simple. They were motivated by lust.. that you seek to intellectualise and romanticise it - to sound ``cool`` just goes to show how big a loser you must be in real life... I used to live in New Jersey and I can imagine you to be one of thousands of oily haired Indian (and Pakistani and other expatriate) H1Bs travelling on NJTransit from New York City... wide-eyed and worshippers of a dog-eat-dog world existence....

So own up to the fact that you are an a-hole ... just like anyone else who breaks the sacred contract between two partners, married or unmarried straight or gay... My solution: Empower your wife and divorce her if you don`t love her. Let her be rid of a monster like you.

Re:amrita #46

[...men as more ``logical``, women as more ``emotional``. i think thats a very outmoded concept...]

You are right on the money. Men are as emotional if not more than women. They are typically first in, last out in a relationship. Even if they end a relationship, they take a long time to get over it. However, men tend to hide their feelings and get on with their lives. Sometimes an anonymous board does offer a great forum to express something that you cant talk to anyone else about. :-)

[...didnt see the relation between extra marital affairs and prostitution and what either had to do with big city morals....]

Indeed. Extra-marital affairs have a strong emotional content to them and are not just about sex, unless it is a one night stand. Even in a one-night stand, there is an element of seduction involved. Prostitution is a very different issue and is only meant for physical release based on a commercial transaction. It is totally irrelevant to this forum.

The only place where big city vs small city makes a difference is that there are far more opportunities in a big city given the larger population, more women in the workforce and the rather anonymous nature of life where most people do not know each other or interfere in each other`s personal lives.

Re:bjkumar#45

[...I am glad you seem to have been able to put some of your own experiences behind you and continued with life, but if I were to guess, the life could never the same afterwards....]

It was a long struggle and took a lot of marital counseling but I was able to move on and restore my married life back to normalcy. The toughest part was to let go of the affair itself. Although I am as pragmatic and ambitious as any other desi guy who comes to the US, this was one time where I was not in control of myself. If my parent or family were around, it might have been easier. I actually changed jobs and cut off all contact with her. It was quite ruthless on my part because I would keep getting calls on my cell phone and emails which I had to ignore. It took nearly an year for things to settle down.

By the way, I loved your usage of the ``diamond`` metaphor. You are quite correct in your description. You can meet someone and wish you had met them 10-15 years earlier when you were available. What transforms an attraction to an affair? I dont know because I had always prided myself as someone who controlled his own destiny. I was always driven to strive for success whether it was at IIT or grad school here. But nevertheless, in spite of all my self-control, I did get carried away and overwhelmed by circumstances.

#47 by bjkumar - great.. as for 4, i wasnt talking about the so-called illicit affairs. 4 was in response to your comment, ``Perhaps the ``big city`` folks have that attitude - in the past also you have treated matters like prostitution rather trivially, lumping all big-city folks into one mold.`` based on a previous interact of mine.

Prostitution in bbay is a fact of life and it isnt restricted to Kamathipura. Of course there are complexities in every scenario and i didnt mean that everyone in bbay is having an affair or is involved in the sex trade. my point was that i didnt see the relation between extra marital affairs and prostitution and what either had to do with big city morals. that`s all.

#46 Amrita

I will try to make it short.

I have no problem with your (1).

I stand by what I said which related to (2), but I can grant you that there is a bell-shaped curve and there is a lot of spread and there is possibly a lot of overlaps - all of them are fine but in my opinion, there is little doubt where the average falls for each gender.

I guess one can choose to disagree on (3) - because the lines of what constitutes ``moral`` have been fudged over and over again over time - and that situation is not likely to change.

I perhaps can not comment on (4), having not lived in Mumbai - but perhaps you should reconsider whether it is a rather oversimplified picture you paint - sweeping a metrolpolis of 18 million souls with a single brush - when you hint of widespread prevalence of illicit affairs! My own guess is that such episodes are rather rare and not as ``routine`` (nor as routinely accepted to the general society) as writers like you imply.

bjkumar - hey.... ok, there are a couple of things to address i guess.
1. the story - its a story, you`re free to form an opinion about it. i`ve said this before and i`ll say it again: there`s no point in me writing something and then telling you how to read it. so what i`m going to say below is in a general vein, addressed to the points you make about men and women.

2. men as more ``logical``, women as more ``emotional``. i think thats a very outmoded concept. its true that women display their emotions in public a lot more readlily than men but as a woman who`s grown up in mixed company, i can tell you that a lot of men are just as emotional. especially when it comes to love. i know a lot more men who are devastated by their love affairs than women. i am not saying women are never devastated, but women have support systems that let them grieve and get over it. most men keep it all inside and then one day find a sympathetic ear [usually female] and let it rip. men in relationships, esp those my age and younger, do talk a lot and are just as or more emotionally dependent. i speak from personal experience and it neednt be yours.

3. illicit vs. love - why can`t it be both? i think thats what ranjit was trynig to say in 44. as for myself and why i chose love instead of illicit in this story, there was a definite reason but as i said, i would prefer to let you draw your own conclusions. but if you still want to know, i would be happy to tell you.

4. big city values - oh please! yes i am a big city girl but like most people in india i have deep connections to the rural side of the country as well. i have yet to see a village or small town in which everything is so much better than the city. its the same problems, the same kind of people - just in smaller numbers and in closer social contact. i think the sociological problems of india`s rural areas exceed anything in its urban areas.
as for the link you provided - i believe there are a couple more interacts elsewhere that explain my position vis a vis prostitution per se but you`ll have to go digging for it. and they might prolly shock you a lot more than the one you found. re: that particular one, i dont see the point you`re trying to make. if you`ve ever lived in bbay or known a lot of bbayites, you`ll know that mixed in with its very middle class morality is its acceptance of things that go bump in the night. it doesnt matter if you live in a chawl or a mansion in Bandra, you`ll invariably have had some kind of run in with the seamier side of life or know somebody who had. again, this has been my experience of bbay and its people.

#44 by Ranjit

Thanks Ranjit, for your candidness. Few people have the ability to discuss such a personal topic openly like you seem to be able to. (Also, for what it is worth, I was not trying to put you ``on the spot`` - I was merely using your previous interact as an example.)

I have no disagreement on what you say about the complexity of life, it being non-straightforward, and the fact that chemistry can spring up between individuals. I will go even one step further and say even this - human beings are so wonderful because we know so little about ourselves - and we are discovering new things all the time - about us and about others. And since we do not truly know even ourselves, it is even more difficult to know another person. Given those two limitations - when we ``couple`` - at best we are merely aligning a few of our common ``facets`` - it is like every one of us is a diamond of many beautiful surfaces and we match a few of those facets that we consider paramount at the time. And later on, if another ``diamond`` comes along - there is always the possibility that one may say - hey, I wonder if those other ``facets`` would have been a better match. Life is merely a long sequence which includes a whole bunch of processes of optimization.

The clear line is between recognizing that reality and doing something (or anything) about it. Like I said in #43, there is a LARGE gap between identifying another person than one`s spouse as a more compatible (or even more all-consuming) match - and dropping into bed together - an act which, in my estimation, can even prove a downer! Unfortunately, the principal parties are the least objective in such situations and in no frame of mind to decide rationally - and because of the nature of such things, usually unable to get the necessary ``help`` from third parties.

The other part is about an unfair burden falling on the woman side of it.

If men, those paragons of ``logical`` thinking can fall so flat on their faces - one can only imagine the effect that such a liason would have on the more ``emotional`` party - which gets more consumed by it. It is in that respect that I find the current story less than credible.

I am glad you seem to have been able to put some of your own experiences behind you and continued with life, but if I were to guess, the life could never the same afterwards.

Re:bjkumar#43

[...The L word involves a lot more than a casual hop in the bed, frequent or otherwise - and is totally meaningless without the commitment that it entails!...]

Life is a lot more complex and non-linear than what you think. When two people interact, it is entirely unpredictable how things will shape up. It depends on the chemistry between the two people, their mental connection and where they are at that point in their lives. It is possible to be in love with more than one person. I know it is probably taboo to say such a thing but it does happen. And every affair is not a conquest or an exploitation - it may simply be two consenting adults finding comfort in each other.

In fact for me it started out at an intellectual level, going out for lunch and talking to her. We were in different departments at work but worked on the same project, so we spent a lot of time together at work. As we got closer we formed a connection and a friendship. We would exchange emails and IM each other. After a while, it morphed into a physical affair. It took me a while because it is not easy to take such a huge step when you have a family. Conversely it also became painful to break off later on because I did form a very emotional relationship with her and came close to divorcing my wife. I just could not stomach the thought of my son growing up without his father and that pulled me back.

I have serious regrets for what happened because I hurt my coworker, my wife and myself. It was indeed a lose-lose situation and no one should do it. However, it is one of those things where the initial phase is very exciting and pleasurable. It is literally like a drug addiction as you feel like a million bucks. Unfortunately, the end is equally nasty and devastating. The worst thing is the constant lying that one has to do to keep it up.

In my previous interact #34 on this board, I did not have the time to comment on your content - and also, because of the relatively serious nature of the topic, I am always hesitant to approach such topics - but here, I will try nevertheless - because the story seems to be straight-forward enough to do so.

I am not sure that what your characters have going on should be respected by giving it the L word - I believe the title should simply be ``An Illicit Affair``, or something along those lines - why hesitate from calling it what it is - why try to euphemize? At most, these two individuals are meeting a bodily urge by hopping in bed together in secret - and the guilt hangs thicker than fog! Both of these individuals are unable to commit enough to this relationship to gather the necessary courage to make a break with their pasts. Genuine relations are not like that - not by a mile.

As the author, you are according a degree of false legitimacy to this casual (and perhaps trivial) relationship. (Perhaps the ``big city`` folks have that attitude - in the past also you have treated matters like prostitution rather trivially, lumping all big-city folks into one mold.) The L word involves a lot more than a casual hop in the bed, frequent or otherwise - and is totally meaningless without the commitment that it entails! It does not mean that people who are in love always have the most ideal of lives - and that they are not exposed to temptations - but what they DO in response to such temptations is what distinguishes them from the type of individuals that you depict.

Also, the way you show the male character asking the female character to break up with her hubby is highly atypical. In most real life cases, the male members are not interested in breaking their ``nest`` but are quite happy to mooch off one or more ``girl friends`` on the side (our friend ``Ranjit`` (assuming he is not fibbing (another characteristic of men folks is to brag about their ``exploits``)) seems to have validated it by saying what he did - notice the absence of any element of repentance in his interact!). In real life, it is usually the woman who keeps trying to make the man break up - and in desperation, keeps on trying - perhaps even hoping that the enticement of sex will do the trick - and perhaps also knowing that it is futile effort. The way life is, the burden of guilt unfortunately always ends up landing disproportionately on the side of the females.

Just my two cents related to the ``reality`` aspect of your story!

hush - hey! thanks for reading as always...

manto - LOL!!

ranjit - hey, thanks for sharing. i`ve never had one myself but this was cobbled together based on the experiences of a couple of people i know. i was listening to the black eyed peas singing ``Dont Lie`` and it just seemed to fit. :) thanks for reading!