Value of a Citizen

#8 BJKUMAR

A really sensible post not generally seen at chowk.com.

You are getting simply prophetic while saying ``once those simplistic habits are learnt they are highly difficult to unlearn.``

My sincere appreciation. May it encourage others to express themselves in similar fashion.

Re: # 15

Does foreigner`s lives count more than Pakistani? Does Indian-Americans count as Americas?
I would love to visit Pakistan. I really want to feel more valuable than the natives.

It sounds like that you are frustrated man. Why dont you do something instead of wasting time on internet?

``Recently, leader of the Liberal Democrat party (third largest party in UK) had to resign just because he admitted to having drinking problems (though nobody had seen him drinking in public). ``

I`m not quite sure about your statement above. I am not defending Mushraff just suggesting that you may want to rephrase.

All the british politicians drink in public, naturally its their culture. They all drink in parties and meetings after work, as did Musharaff. Therefore, why should drinking be an issue in public? as there is no other means of it. In fact, the leader of the Liberal Democrat Party had to step down because he was drinking in `` private``, and thats where the problem begins for him- an alcoholic is a problem as opposed to the occasional binge drinker.

I found the following information in the article interesting;

1. Musharraf drinks

2. People can drink in havelis in Pakistan

3. Musharraf can also dance (probably only after drinking)

4. Musharraf likes to dance with women

5. The author of the article doesn`t like any of these

Simple point but valid. However I must point that when chaos landed on the streets of Peshawar, Islamabad and Lahore recently, no one and I mean no one, foreign, uniformed, common or whomsoever was safe, better or worse than the other.

If you were the advisor of Musharraf would you know that he was drunk. Intelligencia plays well with the emotions, painting itself charlatan and playing tricks by the roadside and entertaining the villagers taking buses to their homes.
Intelligencia is protocols and masking realities with coloured and emotions-arousing scenes from shakesperean-plays-like dramas.

Wolf is cunning but when its hunted by the dogs and 5-6 horsemen, it gets worse. Pakistanis are not being allowed to rest and think of the affairs internally.

arjun_m #3

`` Nevertheless, I hope such an incident does not happen again. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told a news conference that Pakistan “will not allow such incidents to recur” - Daily Dawn (January 16, 2005). The same newspaper also reports:

A senior US senator lamented the loss of innocent lives during a US bombing raid in Pakistan, but said such casualties are unavoidable. “We apologize, but I can’t tell you that we wouldn’t do the same thing again,” McCain said.

Who should I believe?


who should you believe? Obviously McCain.. ``

It is hard not to put my money on McCain

Khalil -- a poignant and sad column -- you are so right with your comparison of Pakistan to India in terms of self esteem and self respect -- very interesting --

Mushrraf and the coteries of his court jesters called cabinet ministers – “didn`t even have the courage to sympathize with their own people” –

I am surprised that you are surprised at that -–

Mushrraf heads an army that for 150 years had been culled and bred culled and bred genetically – undergoing almost TEN generations of obedience training -- to obey two commands of the colonials:

KILL the natives -- DIE for the foreign masters.

India thru 100 years of the Freedom Fight had sloughed off phenotypically that genetic burden -- Pakistan with no such history had difficulty in changing that slavish mindset –

but if it is of any comfort to you -- don’t despair -- be consoled -- the way India caved in to Bush`s Pressure against Iran -- that defective servant gene -- is still hidden somewhere in the Indian Psyche -- like the quiescent Herpes Virus -- only to manifest -- in duress -- or if bribed properly -- as an unquestioned obeisance to neocolonial arm twisting……

Your anguish and lament over the domestic corruption scene and the like are understandable. Some of those problems prevail throughout the subcontinent (as #2 pointed out). As far as the US role is concerned - let`s face it - nobody truly expects any one to oppose US interests openly - there is a cost/penalty involved. And when the Pakistani regime has doubtful legitimacy to begin with, they are more at a disadvantage to begin with - and for all one knows, perhaps it is much easier to focus on building individual birdie nests than to try to fix up the whole gulshan!

[I supported Musharraf whole heartedly when he came to power because....]
You are truly green behind the ears (I like you for that but I must still tell you the bitter truth (don`t believe old Kaura, he just likes to USE the name!)) - dictators don`t ask for support - they ensure it through force - whether YOU supported him or not was truly irrelevant at the time and is even more so now. (Mushy is relatively benign, though. It could have been worse - much worse.)

In my personal opinion, you guys got it wrong at the outset - you got Pakistan by making a lot of noise and doing a lot of killings - once those simplistic habits are learnt they are highly difficult to unlearn. If the easy solution to any problem is seen through sheer force, which has no requirement of a will to compromise or to see others` point of view, why would there EVER be any negotiations - force would always be considered more efficient, because it is faster - negotiations take longer, much longer and all negotiations involve making concessions!

And once a dictator is in place - guess what is the only thing that can dislodge him/her - MORE force - so the ``legitimacy`` of the process gets reinforced, it produces more precedents for future generations and the cycle goes on. A little like this OLD Hindi song:

``Badal jaye agar maali
chaman hota naheen khalee
Baharein - phir bhi ayee hain
Baharein - phir bhi ayengie....``

Except that this type of ``bahaar`` is only good for the upper crust - the ``brahmins`` (used here figuratively, no disrespect is intended to Brahmins - for analogy, look at the gang here which is shamelessly hugging Interact Indices of 4.0 while preaching democratic values to the rest of the world!)

[Where was Musharraf? He was treating his hangover of heavy drinking at Yusuf Salahuddin’s haveli the night before. You won’t ever see Blair drunk.]
If you expect Gen. Mushy to act like Tony Blair - YOU may be considered drunk. They are in very different setups, they have to do different things to survive and they have different constituencies to attend to for such survival.


[Who should I believe?]
The senator is truthful - compare that with the track record of your own leaders - so the answer ought to be obvious.

But the people of Pakistan have a poor track record of seeing the truth for what it is.

What is the truth? The truth is - as our friend HP so confidently proclaimed (and a statement that I am getting quite fond of)

``Size does matter!``

You see dear friend - India has a bigger size - because if you gather more people together - it gets bigger! So it ends up having more clout.

And guess what - it would have been even bigger had not YOUR forefathers blown it through their narrow-mindedness and now YOU are left holding their bag!

And the bag only gets heavier over time - as more and more guys stuff more and more lies! The cycle goes on!

The only true solution STARTS with seeing those very basic facts - which are apparent to the whole world - and have been for a while.

And there is no solution in pretensions and selling of pipe dreams like the khakis and the sherwanis and the bearded gentlemen keep doing!

And there is no solution in creating straw villains - like Manto`s little gang keeps trying to do.

Start with the basic truths and MAYBE there will be some light at the end of this dark tunnel.

Only the truth liberates people and makes them free.

Keep vacillating and shrinking from the truth and....then what?

Then? More of the same.

It`s called ``been there and done that!``

I think, and I could be right, that for the image of the country, it is much more preferable to have a few killed by the foreigners, than by the local thugs. Lemme think..ummm, over 3000 Shias murdered in the last 10 years; dozens of Christians whacked; many cases registered against non-Muslims under blasphemy law; Sindhi Hindus raped on daily basis. And we have Pakistanis worried about a dozen Pakistanis killed by the brave men and women of the United States Armed Forces? People, there is a war going on, and that’s what happens in War..people get killed. In parties, people usually don’t get killed, but in wars, they do.

Please note that Sectarian killings in Pakistan have been a regular feature of the last two decades, with about 7000 lives lost in the violence. Being a Shia, an Ahmadi, or any other religious minority in Pakistan comes very close to being a Jew in Nazi Germany, and we have folks worried about collateral damage. The Mullas can gather 100s of thousands of inbred ignorant idiots to come and burn buildings and kill people for a cartoon of an actor; but god forbid they take their heads out of their ass to protest the injustice advanced to the Minorities of Pakistan.

Therefore, I agree with the author that in Pakistan, there is no respect for life of an average citizen. Unless the country frees itself from ideology of hatred, there is no hope in sight.

Dear Khalil Sahib.. Thanks for a very timely piece, only one point... you write: “On the contrary, in Pakistan, only the lives of politicians, feudals, army officers and visiting foreigners (from western Europe or USA) has any value.”

That’s not entirely true. I am sure you remember what happened to countles politicians (some were hanged by their balls; and some are rotting in Saudi Arabia). I come from land of the feudals, and it is not uncommon to have the whole clans killed (you just don’t read about it in the papers)… same goes for other Pakistanis. Pakistan is the wild wild west of the east.

dear author
{A senior US senator lamented the loss of innocent lives during a US bombing raid in Pakistan, but said such casualties are unavoidable. “We apologize, but I can’t tell you that we wouldn’t do the same thing again,” McCain said. }

you must see it in the context of american value, that of a powerful state. e.g. although america is a mostly christian country, it will go after those who undermine the law of the land. case in point is the christian fundamentalist in Waco texas, they were bombed out, with much ``collatelral`` damage..dead women and children.

#4 by rf786

new orleans will be an election issue as was gujrat. there is no free pass.

rockets red glare, (American) bombs bursting in the (paki) air..

Two more rockets fired from Afghanistan

By our correspondent

MIRANSHAH: Two more rockets, fired by coalition troops in Afghanistan, fell in Pakistan’s Saidgai tribal town of North Waziristan tribal agency on Wednesday night. It, however, caused no damage to life and property but created panic among the villagers living on the border town between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Official and tribal sources confirmed that two rockets fell inside Pakistan, which they said, coalition forces have fired on suspect militants following an attack on their checkpoint near Zhawar camp in Khost province.

Meanwhile, a security check post at Sarabanki village near here came under rocket attack on Wednesday night but there were not loss to life and property. Tribal sources said the troops deployed at the security post fired back with heavy weapons. The identity the attackers wasn’t known. The Sarbanki post is near the Chashma Pul, about 2 kms from Miramshah on the Miramshah-Bannu Road. Separately, the military is believed to have shifted two Uzbekistanis captured in North Waziristan on Tuesday to Islamabad for further interrogation.

Mr Khalil
Please excue my english.....what a load of crap....Does New Orleans ring a bell? Gujrat massacres, bombs going off in Belfasts, victimization of the Irish population, recent riots in Paris etc etc etc....it appears u wish to live in your self-created fantasy land, my advise buy tickets for Disney Land....

Nevertheless, I hope such an incident does not happen again. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told a news conference that Pakistan “will not allow such incidents to recur” - Daily Dawn (January 16, 2005). The same newspaper also reports:

A senior US senator lamented the loss of innocent lives during a US bombing raid in Pakistan, but said such casualties are unavoidable. “We apologize, but I can’t tell you that we wouldn’t do the same thing again,” McCain said.

Who should I believe?


who should you believe? Obviously McCain..

Nomads killed on Pakistan border
Monday 13 February 2006, 3:49 Makka Time, 0:49 GMT
Two nomadic women on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border have been killed by what is believed to be US military fire.

Pakistani officials said four rockets or shells were apparently fired by the US military while fighting suspected militants in Afghanistan`s eastern Khost province late on Saturday.

Dear Ibrahim

India is able to refuse foreign aid for disasters and it is good to be able to look after itself in that respect. India also has a vibrant democracy and press. But there is still a long long way to go - and life is still cheap, and there are many shameful things in the closet and taboo subjects, like politicians involved in murders, that India also has this cheap philosophy to life. So much of your article applies to India too.