Where are the Questioning Minds?

that 18 million includes in #298 includes muslims who were similarly uprooted as well. That still means almost 10 million hindus and sikhs.

urstruly: you are right. it is idiotic on my part to expect you to be capable of an honest discussion, and to simply ignore facts you dont like. so let me then summarize:

While being so concerned about ``crimes against palestinians`` you are unconcerned about similar ``crimes against desis`` committed at around the same time (in 1947). The only difference being that while the numbers of palestinians rendered homeless was less than a million (per their own figures on a palestinian website), the numbers of hindus and sikhs who were dispossessed were several times that number (18 million, according to Wikipedia).

You have ignored all this, and made it clear in your post to dost mittar that you think it is idiotic of me to point fingers at ourselves, when it is so much more fun and satisfying to point fingers at others. Not a problem, my friend. I would rather be an honest idiot than a dishonest genius like you.

As for dost mittar`s listing of grievances - he is right. But he is being no different than you - namely having fun pointing to pakistanis while ignoring the usual anti-pakistan and anti-muslim garbage written by indian posters on chowk.

The only difference between you and the indians is that while they have fun pointing to pakistan and playing victim to the evil muslims, you have fun pointing to the west and playing victim to the evil west. No difference. Tout ca change, to c`est la meme chose. (if you can write gibberese, I can write francaise).

Dear Majumdar...

I agree with your view about the freedom struggle. Jinnah mind you was always a parliamentary opposition leader and a critic of the British rather than a rebel. Gandhi undercut Bhagat Singh.

As for untouchables... Gandhi took on a ``fast unto death`` to dissuade the untouchables from demanding affirmative action vis a vis reserved representation. Kasturba Gandhi actually visited Dr Ambedkar to dissuade him saying ``save my suhaag``... Emotional blackmail worked... and the untouchables remained ``Harijans`` or the people of God.

There are many ways, angles and perspectives to look at events... and surely mine is a valid one as it was expressed in numerous books by untouchable leaders- especially ``What have the Congress and Mr Gandhi done to the untouchables``.

Re 295

The only genuine and effective freedom movement for India was neither led by Gandhi or Jinnah or Bhagat Singh but by Adolf Hitler.

Whatever be Gandhi`s fault I am not sure that he deliberately disenfranchised untouchables. Any particular instance you can quote where he did something to that effect. If yes, I stand corrected.

Regards

Dear Harish,

Gandhi`s dishonesty is plain to anyone who has read his collected works and how he deliberately disenfranchised the untouchables.

I see that you have only one myth left: Gandhi was brutally honest. Infact he was brutally dishonest... in all his actions- he always had some ulterior motive and it will not be too off the mark to say that he was an officially sanctioned freedom fighter who on the one hand gave British enough room to wriggle out of their dominion status proposal which the Congress had been fighting for pre-Gandhi and on the other hand took the wind out of genuine liberation movements waged by the likes of Bhagat Singh etc.

Re 293

Harish, what I meant was that you should hate Gandhi more than manto hates Gandhi not that you hate Manto more than what you hate Gandhi.

(And rest assured that I do not hate Yasser)

In fact everyone on the chowk knows that you are in love with manto.

(My attempt and effort in main has been to promote constitutional democracy amongst my own countrymen... for which Jinnah is a main symbol. )

Pakistan will be and should be a constitutional maybe even secular democracy only if the current and future generation of Pakistanis want it to be. The wishes of Jinnah are completely irrelevant the same is also true for India and Gandhi

By the way where is the other deadly duo- behram and arjun-m - defecating on the railway tracks with sugarcanes stuffed in their butt.

Regards

#290 by majumdar

[Harish, I am amazed that u are defending that idiot Gandhi who has done incalculable harm to Indians in general and Hindus in particular- you should hate him far more than Manto.]

Yaar Majumdar, I`m not arguing on the merits of what Gandhi`s actions have done to India and Indians/Pakis. I`m only saying that Gandhi was honest and his intentions were never in doubt, unlike Jinnah, who just to satisfy his vanity divided the country into two and in the process caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indians.

And rest assured that I do not hate Yasser, I only pity him. He sees what he wants to and then actually believes it.

#289 by Mantolives

[I can`t do anything about your below par comprehension skills or your over-inflated opinion of your specious reasoning as logic.]

That is an affliction that YOU suffer from. On this very board, I have repeatedly pointed out the same but to no avail. You couldn`t understand the difference between ``may not`` and ``cannot`` when you accused another interactor of looking down upon his wife. Misuderstanding and misquoting seems to be a specialty you excel in, which is not surprising given your background.

[Your repetitive abuse just shows that you have no argument left defending that misogynist hindu fanatic Gandhi and have fallen back on your regular patterns.]

Yaar you don`t know what the meaning of abuse is. Abuse is what you have been heaping on Gandhi. Abuse is when you talk about orifices and other body parts, which everyone will agree has been a regular pattern in your interacts whenever you have no argument.

[Also as far as I know those who have read Gandhi in detail do not make much of his ``honesty`` and ``integrity``.. which in any event is not his claim to fame.]

And you don`t know too far it seems. Anyone who`s read Gandhi`s autobiography will know how brutally honest he`s been. So unsparing has been of himself that one could be forgiven for thinking that he`s talking about his enemies.

In the end, let me wish you good luck on your attempts to `expose` Gandhi. Keep waiting for the day when history will be rewritten.

Dear Majumdar...

My attempt and effort in main has been to promote constitutional democracy amongst my own countrymen... for which Jinnah is a main symbol. I have no desire to convince any one else of Jinnah`s greatness vis a vis Gandhi- which is at best a subjective analysis. To me Jinnah is head and shoulders above Gandhi... and I am sure an honest assessment would lead to such conclusion.. but I could care less what Indians or anyone else believe.

The problem starts with Indian intolerance to accept that Pakistanis may not agree with their antecedents and find an alternative route to a modern constitutional democratic state.

Re: Manto-Harish Derby

Harish, I am amazed that u are defending that idiot Gandhi who has done incalculable harm to Indians in general and Hindus in particular- you should hate him far more than Manto.

Manto, all your points regarding Gandhi are spot on but:

 You will never convince the neutral junta that Jinnah was greater than Gandhi.
 Gandhi’s nation has at least held together while Jinnah’s Pakistan does not exist.
 Indians at least pay lip service to Gandhi’s ideals while Jinnah’s secular message has been turned around ou 180 in Pakistan.
 You have in the past claimed that Gandhi was responsible for the current religious fundamentalism in Pakistan. This is just not true- it was the Original Sin of sub-continental Muslims

Dear Harish,

I can`t do anything about your below par comprehension skills or your over-inflated opinion of your specious reasoning as logic. Your repetitive abuse just shows that you have no argument left defending that misogynist hindu fanatic Gandhi and have fallen back on your regular patterns. Also as far as I know those who have read Gandhi in detail do not make much of his ``honesty`` and ``integrity``.. which in any event is not his claim to fame.

#287 by Mantolives

[The first line was sarcastic, but then the effect was clearly lost on you.]

Only goes to show that sarcasm is not your cup of tea, just as logic isn`t.

[You are right Jinnah was not a hypocritical disgusting somebody like Gandhi.]

The problem Yasser is, Jinnah was a hypocritical disgusting ``nobody``. You get it?

[.. all his contemporaries and opponents held Jinnah`s honesty and integrity as an article of faith.]

Hmm..the entire world regards Gandhi`s honesty and integrity as impeccable, which is why he is considered an icon. As for Jinnah, the world holds him responsible for the Partition of India and the deaths of millions of Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs, no matter what spin you try to put on it.

HarishHyd..

Your abusive posts only show that you are an extremely troubled individual.
The first line was sarcastic, but then the effect was clearly lost on you.

You are right Jinnah was not a hypocritical disgusting somebody like Gandhi... all his contemporaries and opponents held Jinnah`s honesty and integrity as an article of faith.

#271 by Mantolives

[So what we think makes it true.]

Maybe that`s what you believe but it doesn`t which is why I suggest you give it a rest. Gandhi will remain an icon and Jinnah a nobody, despite what YOU think.

[Gandhi`s works are there and the world will re-examine him after the dust Gandhi`s followers and liars have kicked up settles.]

This is more akin to that Iranian buffoon Ahmadinejad`s claim that the holocaust never took place. If only wishes were horses, more people would listen to you Yasser and you find more people other than just your wife to believe you.

[Its better to be an honest and upright nobody than to be a hypocritical disgusting somebody.]

Unfortunately Jinnah was none of these. And even more unfortunate is the fact that even the whitewash isn`t helping.

Best way to fight danish bad stuff is to not become mad but lean and mean and smart like white northern race people smart and industrius and work intelligently.
Ummah and especially Pkaitan industires can produce same products and import to Muslims nations and defeat Danish rubbish. Mecca cola has replaced cocacola to good extent and muslims in white copuntries use these products and help Ummah to become industrous countries. No point in whining and marching.

Re: # 282

Dost Sahib:

From age 9 to 15 are formative years in child development. Are there statistics about how widely such books are or were used in Pakistan? How long these books remained as the carriculam?

This will allow to understand the hateful generation that may have come out of this education system.

Personally I am shocked to read such text being taught to students in their formative years. I am sure KKK can justify many things about the blacks being right. The question is as a greater good of society, should that be taught or fought?

I do not see any excuse religious or otherwise to teach such hatred to children at their formative age.

Anil Kapuria

Anil