Where are the Questioning Minds?

Re: # 134
I have not followed Netizen and your interaction but I would like to further develop your paragraph. The source of unity of all religions is the shared belief that some thing is higher than one`s ego. It is this belief in supra-ego that creates the melieu for religious states. If you read Shaikh Mohammad`s comparative analysis of Tasavvuf and Upanishads you will get an inkling of the psycho-philsophical undertones of all religions.

Urstruly:
Then, we can safely assume that Quranic statements about stray jews and christians - that makeup for the 98% of the followers of these religions (like they dont consider Mohammad prophet) - as posted by Ajeya are legitimate calls for confrontation?

Re: # 132

I absolutely agree with your clarification. That was what I was trying to convey in my post that 9:29 only addresses the deviant sects in Judaism and Christianity, whereas sects also exist with in both religions whose belifs are consistent with Islam.

Re: # 127
Yes, people need to learn enough English to consistently communicate. Thanks for understanding. With Mantolives, Aisha and so many others` comments , I began to think that there is a Chowk English!!

Re#127 Netizen:
i think it is perfectly okay for anyone to drag Gandhi - he didnot threaten anyone with eternal damnation. the absurdity will play itself out the more we hear about the negative attributes of gandhi with noone responding with threats of death and decay in afterlife.

Further to : # 130

One clarification I needed to add while explaining the four attributes in my post # 130 which says:

- Do not believe in Allah

This statement should not be taken to mean that those Jews and Christians are being addressed in that verse who did not beleive in the Muslim God ``Allah``. Please keep in mind that all Arabic speaking Christians, Jews, and Muslims use the same word ``Allah`` to refer to God. The word ``Allah`` is the Arabic equivalent of word ``God`` in English. So in essence Muslims, Jews, and Christains belive in One and same God.

Re: # 122
Share does not mean equal, less or more!! Please understand the terms properly. ``Share interest`` means ``like.`` Why do the husband and wife have to like same intellectual endeavors?!!!!!

After this I will not respond to lack of understanding of words. Concepts yes, but not the definitions of words, no.

RE: Urstruly:
``Jews started calling Ezra (pbuh) as son of God; ``

That is actually an incorrect statement in Quran that you were referring to. Quran should have said, Jews who came into contact with Mohammad were believers of Ezra son of God. :-) Mainstream judaism has no such concept.


By the way, the picture you posted in #65 was painful to look at but at the same time it was beautiful. thanks for posting.

Re: # 120
I am disappointed at the perfunctoriness of your response. Please note carefully:
(a) ``1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me``
****#5 entry is not yours it is mine. Besides your related statement is totally unfounded.
As a matter of fact my record in Chowk Has been one of mutual respect between Hindus and Muslims though I persist in unity of South Asians.****

(b) ``2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:``
**** in your quotation of the article there is no statement that Rabia Basri was a South Asian but you persist in saying that she did say that.****

(c) ``3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad. I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear. ``
****You may have. But in this interaction you have not come across as such. Furthermore, you have not quoted her text with errors. I have asked you to do so but you have simply dodged/failed to do. To me the aim is abundantly clear: it is two fold; firstly Islamics have systematically discouraged open mindedness about religious issues, secondly, women are systematically put down in Islam and among the followers of Islam. You, of course, turn a blind eye towards it.****

Re: # 126

``The quotation you are trying to rationalize is not the one that I picked for you to justify in #90. The one I picked was the following:

[9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior ] ``

No problem. I can get to 9:29 too. The complete verse 9:29 is as follows:

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This verse is in the continuation of the subject matter and background that we discussed earlier from Chapter 9-Repentance. Here Allah is guiding Holy prophet (pbuh) against a a particular set of people. These people are Jews and Christians i.e. people of the Book but not all Jews and Christians but only those among them who qualify four conditions:

- Do not believe in Allah
- Do not beleive in the Day of Final judgement
- and do not observe prohibitions (imposed upon them by God thru their books)
- do not follow the religion of truth

The four attributes that are listed above are in clear defiance of what the Bible and Torah taught Christians and Jews. These are the impositions that are consistent with Qura`n and still exist in their books even after all the changes that they have made in their books. For example, Christians very late in Christianity introduced the concepts like Holy Trinity (virtually three gods) and they made Jesus (pbuh) as the son of God. Similarly, Jews started calling Ezra (pbuh) as son of God; when the message of God in their books is that God is above human attributes like having children etc. Similarly certain sects of Jews do not beleive in the Day of Final judgement; Jews also started collecting usury which is specifically forbidden in their books. Jesus Christ (pbuh) also taught them not to collect usury and Christians loyally obeyed this command for the next thousand years. The fourth attributes refers to the `true religion` Islam which was the religion of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) and all the Prophets that came throughout the history. Islam considers both Jews and Christians as early Muslims. They are only two surviving ancient Muslim nations. A good part of Qura`n addresses those beliefs that have crept into their religion through themselves or due to the compulsion of time. It is not that Jews and Christians are unaware of these changes to their original text, they know it very well. Hence their resistance was only due to their stubborness and not due to any conviction.

So a question is why Islam did not leave them alone - to us our belief and to them theirs. I explain it through an example. Lets assume that New York city today announces that from now on all rides in the subway system are free, however, there is a $2.00 purely voluntary tickect if anyone wishes to buy. You can gues that no one will buy the ticket. Similarly, when Islam came it made very clear to Jews and Christians that this message was nothing new. It was only a reform movement within their religions that was promised to them in their books. So when all evidence and arguments were made and done with, Islam divided Jews and christians into two groups. One group was that who still believed in Oneness of God, belived in the Day of Final Judgement, refrained from the prohibitions, in other words these were the jews and christians who beileved in the true essence of their religion. They were exempt from any persecution. However, those among them who clearly defied the above mentioned four attributes, they were given two choices:

1. Either pay a special tax and keep whatever they beleieve in.

2. Or they would have to get ready for a war.

In other words, in a state only one of the competing ideologies can survive. Jews and Christians had their chance which they used best in their capacity to make Islam extinct. In the end only the strongest ideology survived.

Re: various by Urstruly and other Islamists

In the Quran, there are too many words of hatred towards people of other faiths and too few good words.

The thing about Muhammad, his words and his deeds is that you can give the benefit of doubt only so many times. Starting from his wanting to marry a 6-year old child, to his having sex with MANY slaves captured in war, to his killing MANY men, women and children, to his statements about people of other faith, it is too much to expect humanity to give him the benefit of doubt to justify each and every case.

In any court of law, he would be convicted hands down a thousand times over.

I`m sorry, you`ll have to try to sell that bridge elsewhere.

Re: # 125

salim bey:

did you get my reply on the other board.

Re: # 124

aisha


``Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...``

you guys are really shameless......

will drag gandhi in every irrelevant topics.


``So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics. ```

he said his wife is dis-interested not inferior to him. if my girlfriend also doesn`t share my interest in football, does that mean i consider her inferior to me in football ?????

Re: #118 by Urstruly

The quotation you are trying to rationalize is not the one that I picked for you to justify in #90. The one I picked was the following:

[9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior ]

It`s interesting, is it not, that you chose to pick the one you wanted?

But anyway, coming back to your rationalization. The historical reality, of course, is that Muhammad was the aggressor in this whole scenario, but that does not matter. Fanatics like you will never listen to what history has to say.

ALL THROUGH HISTORY, BLOODTHIRSTY PEOPLE HAVE JUSTIFIED THEIR KILLING OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS BEING DIVINELY SANCTIONED. BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS PEOPLE USED TO BUY THAT CRAP. AND EVEN TODAY - IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. IN THIS UNIVERSE OF A GAZILLION GALAXIES, APPARENTLY GOD IS BUSY ARRANGING THINGS LIKE WHAT ``POOR RATE`` SOME UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PAYING! IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE MAD PEOPLE SEE LOGIC.

BUT ANYWAY, WHETHER HE WAS THE AGGRESSOR OR NOT WAS IRRELEVENT.

Justifying killing people ``wherever you can find them`` is not the same as killing them in a battle. And why would they have to pay a ``poor-rate``? Eh?

Or else what?

Lose their Dhimmi-status and sink to an even lower status? And what would that status be?

How different is this hateful approach from that of Jesus Christ, who asked god to forgive his enemies, because they did not know what they were doing?


[ I hope now you can sleep easy that you are perfectly safe :) ]

I am not worried about Muslims as one would be against someone strong and fights a honorable war. In a face-to-face fight, with no low-down deception, they are likely to lose most always. My fear is more like the fear of a scorpion, or a snake that hides and bites the unsuspecting person.

Don`t worry about us idolators and non-believers. You Muslims should worry about your own safety first. If you haven`t noticed, it is Muslims who have been losing every battle against pretty much everybody for the longest time.

The only time they win is when they ambush unsuspecting people. Which had been Muhammad`s modus operandi as well. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive. They were called qazwah (raid, ambush or sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. The one defensive war, `ditch` was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism `jihad` will continue until the West ``offers peace``. This was made clear by Bin Laden.

For example, here`s a tranlation of of Sahih Bukhari, Book 46:

[Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:
Narrated Ibn Aun:

I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn `Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn `Umar was in that army. ]


Muslims are losing wars everywhere.

Ask Allah to step in and do something.

:-)



And guess what, you STILL haven`t answered my original question, about why it is okay for Muslims to say bad things about people of other religions, but other people cannot even draw a cartoon of Muhammad in jest.

[The worst beasts in Allah`s sight are the disbelievers. 55]

[Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 73 ]

[Don`t pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 113 ]

[Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 123]

Azra,
Thank you for sharing your views about this gross violation of individual rights by the so-called scholars of God`s word. ``Maulana Dr. Israr Ahmed`` did make a brief visit to Chowk UP and I found him to be the filthiest of interactors with a mouth so profane that it had to be Atif2 masquerading as the evil bearded know-it-all.

I can see how you can reach the conclusion that the poor women of Pakistan are at the bottom of the unquestioned totem pole. This lack of independent thinking is the undoing of our entire society, religion, and. It persecutes men as well as women and is probably the root cause of our sorry state in today`s advancing world. Now that we have identified the problem, I look to the educated and civilized interactors of Chowk to correct the problem. Judging by the extreme intolerance expressed by many Paki Chowkies, please don`t hold your breath for any rapid rectifications.

Re: # 2

ylh,

Leave this Hindu freak alone. Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics.